Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive80

User:CheckersBoard not citing sources again

Recent edits to Juhani Wahlsten added a multitude of uncited information. CheckersBoard (talk · contribs) appears to be continuing to campaign for ringette without citing reliable sources. I am also concerned about a possible content dispute starting at IIHF Hall of Fame. Any thoughts? Flibirigit (talk) 10:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

If a user has a habit of adding unreferenced content, feel free to revert their edits. Same goes if they do add references, but the refs are inadequate (I reverted a case like this just yesterday, as a matter of fact). Regards, PKT(alk) 12:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Ugh. I was mulling over seeking a topic ban for his last round of insanity. Basically, he just creates so much work for editors in cleaning up after his messes. Ravenswing 12:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I will not violate WP:3RR. Someone else will have to revert from hereon. Flibirigit (talk) 16:46, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I just cited some things in the Juhani Wallenius article, it indeed has a lot of uncited text... --Kilaseell - Message me! - 13:16, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for adding citations. Flibirigit (talk) 16:46, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Oopsie, i accidentally said Wallenius instead of Wahlsten :D --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 16:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Infobox hockey team

I have some suggestions that I think would be good additions to the template. "Media" the NHL team template has this so why not, right? "Motto" well, many teams have those :D --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 16:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd add them myself but i don't know how to do that. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 16:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Infoboxes are becoming too big and cluttered with trivia. Infoboxes should only summarize the key points, not list everything. I think some fields should be removed instead of more being added. Flibirigit (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, I guess --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 17:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Jersey problem

Hello! I don't know how to do this but there is some mistakes in a hockey jersey picture. The black outlines are missing from the top of the jerseys and it needs to be fixed. Maybe someone here can fix it? Thanks in advance.

--Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 18:58, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Franchise records, before & after re-locations

Should we include or exclude franchise records, before a re-location. Example: Nordiques records in the Avalanche team article. GoodDay (talk) 20:18, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I restored what you reverted since you did not give any good reason. In addition, reverting and then immediately starting a discussion looks silly. And regarding your question – no need to combine it when teams before relocation have their own sections for scoring. – Sabbatino (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

There are teams in the same franchise that relocating to a different city and therefore, since they are the same franchise, it should be kept. BattleshipMan (talk) 03:10, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

+1. The records prior to relocation count as franchise records, across the board, at least in the NHL. (The AHL, by contrast, doesn't count them; the Abbotsford Canucks, for instance, don't hold Michel Picard's goal scoring or Bruce Boudreau's point scoring records, set with the Springfield Indians, as theirs.) Ravenswing 20:27, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

This is the NHL, not the CFL or NFL who pretend relocated clubs are a totally different entity. IMHO, we should keep the Nordiques records in the Avalanche article. The Thrashers records in the 'new' Jets article, etc etc. Read over the section headings & you'll notice that they say "franchise" records. BTW - I did give a good reason for reverting your bold changes. You just didn't like the reason. GoodDay (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

At least Ravenswing gave good examples unlike you by writing "same franchise" in edit summary, which is not an explanation. – Sabbatino (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I imagine the distinction is that with a franchise relocation in the minors, it's almost always accompanied by the team being sold to new interests, usually paired with a change of affiliation, and almost always with a complete new set of players -- there's a strong case for there being zero continuity. About the only recent case in the AHL where that's reasonably different is with the Philadelphia Phantoms being moved to Glens Falls after the closure of the Spectrum, and pending the building of the Allentown arena where Lehigh Valley now plays; there was continuity of ownership, players, team name and uniforms. Ravenswing 03:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

"Same franchise" isn't clear enough, as an edit summary? Sabbatino, you're trying to get me into a spat with you, but I'm not biting. If having the 'last word' is important to you? that's fine. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm basing my opinion on this issue based on the following links [1] [2] [3]. I can grab more, but these three links clearly show that the NHL team scoring records should include the entire history of the franchise, even if they have relocated. Deadman137 (talk) 23:18, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I am aware that we base everything on NHL, but certain teams think otherwise. For example, I looked at the Jets' media guides (some other teams also do that) yesterday and there is no mention of Ilya Kovalchuk in the records sections. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:37, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Champion in Last Games in NHL season articles

The last games tables for NHL players retiring should also include Stanley Cup Champion instead of leaving them blink on it. There should be included in the updated guidelines, like in 2021-22 NHL season last games section where Ryan Getzlaf is a one-time Stanley Cup Champion, Tuukka Rask is a one-time Stanley Cup Champion and Dustin Brown, a two-time Stanley Cup Champion. Some of the later NHL seasons articles don't allow that and The Stanley Cup is a significant achievement to many NHL player. So it should be brought back. BattleshipMan (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I hid Brown from the list for the time being, as he hasn't retired yet. He's going to continue to play for the Kings, in the playoffs. GoodDay (talk) 22:50, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

What I meant is about listing Stanley Cup Champion to each player who retired in particular NHL season articles. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:09, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

The reason I brought this up is because in some of the later NHL seasons, that some of notable players who retired in particular have won Stanley Cups, yet we never list Stanley Cup Champions on them as we should. That needs to be talked about. BattleshipMan (talk) 05:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I've nor problem with mentioning they were Stanley Cup champions. GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

We have Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/NHL season pages format#Debuts and Last Games, which is meant for that. You ought to reach a consensus for the inclusion of that. – Sabbatino (talk) 00:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay:, @Sabbatino:, @Ravenswing: There should be consensus for that. "Stanley Cup Champions" is something that should be included each NHL season because not a lot of NHL players get a chance to win that trophy. BattleshipMan (talk) 02:50, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I've no objections to inclusion. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Anybody else? BattleshipMan (talk) 05:24, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Seems like useless trivia and WP:LISTCRUFT to me. Flibirigit (talk) 10:19, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Not many players won Stanley Cups. So therefore, it's worth mentioning that. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Pitsiturnaus

I just re-created Pitsiturnaus with proper citations. Would it be good to create articles on all the Pitsiturnaus seasons? I can find the sources but i don't know if it's notable... --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 08:12, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

The article needs a lot of work, and does not assert the notability of the event. First, it needs to be clear on the classification of the tournament and the type of teams which participate. Once that is done, a {{short description}} is needed. I also added multiple citation needed tags. I advise against creating individiual season articles at this time. Flibirigit (talk) 10:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I dove in and made some wording changes, but there are a few spots where I'm not sure what the right changes would be. However - is Pitsiturnaus a one-day tournament? If yes, I am highly doubtful that it meets any notability standards. Regards, PKT(alk) 14:20, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is a one day tournament. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 05:16, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Finnish hockey

Finally the history sections of finnish hockey articles can be improved. I found a book with history from all the finnish professional hockey teams from 1920 to 1989. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 10:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It also appears to have info on individual players that played in Finland. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 10:05, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It has a list of every single national team game of finland from 1960 to 1989 also. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 10:07, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

NHL stats leader page notice, needs partial updating

We need an administrator to update the Red coloured notice at List of NHL statistical leaders page, as the 2021-22 regular season is over. IPs and other editors have already updated regular season numbers, there. GoodDay (talk) 23:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

St. Louis Blues

Definitely could use some help in this article with constant IP vandalism. Deadman137 (talk) 04:44, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Reliable?

Hey, is the national teams of ice hockey site ([4]) a reliable source (using it for biggest wins/losses, overall record, top scorers...)? I've seen it on some and added it to other national team articles but OhNoitsJamie (talk · contribs) says it's a "Wordpress site/blog" and removed it as an external link. So, what do you guys think about the site? Pinging @18abruce:, who disagreed and had a short discussion with OhNoitsJamie. Kante4 (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

It's somebody's personal website. So it isn't reliable....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I understand that it is appears as self-published, or perhaps a fan site, but what makes a site like The Internet Hockey Database different? National teams of ice hockey has been up for fifteen years, consistently updating their databases. The Internet Hockey Database is self-published, and invites visitors to contact the publishers if they find mistakes, but remains a heavily used reliable source doesn't it? I would hope that any discussion would also include the consequences for the project if it is not an acceptable site to use.18abruce (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not very good on verifiable sources. But, I wish we'd split up the IIHF teams, into World Jrs, World, World U18, Olympics, World Cup of Hockey, etc etc team pages, for each country. It's at times confusing, the way it's currently done. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Constant vandalism of NHL teams' owners

Has anyone else, noticed the constant (last two or more months) vandalism of NHL team articles, concerning the team owners. I don't know if it's the same individual or a group of individuals. But the -let's replace the team owner with an opposing player who 'owned' (i.e dominated) the team joke - has gotten tiresome. GoodDay (talk) 19:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Agreed, but what response do you suggest beyond what's already being done? Ravenswing 22:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Considering long term semi-protection for all 30 NHL team articles. GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's been happening for years, in all sports. It's probably the most common form of vandalism on wikipedia.^{citation needed} Once getting owned entered the greater zeitgeist it was only a matter of time before teenage boys discovered that anyone can edit wikipedia, and it doesn't help when Barstool and similar media entities share these edits on social media as, quote, "hilarious". But yes short of semi-protecting all sports team articles, or removing the owner= parameter from the infobox, I don't see any hope beyond reverting and templating the IPs as they do it. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. And article protection only protects the articles. We're starting to see more vandalism on the talk pages of perennially protected articles. Granted, that's better than mainspace vandalism, but vandals will vandalize. BilCat (talk) 23:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd be willing to support a temporary semi-protected status for the most frequently vandalised team articles. Masterhatch (talk) 00:43, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

If we want to go with the temporary semi-protection option; about two weeks before the regular season ends, we could protect all of the articles of the teams in contention (that aren't already protected) for the playoffs for about three months. This would stop much of the problem. Deadman137 (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I could get behind that. Masterhatch (talk) 02:37, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree, but the trick is to find a sympathetic admin. I've asked for temporary semi-protection for Auston Matthews, Connor McDavid and other stars and the responses have been negative, in spite of spates of vandalism. I'm not saying "don't try", I'm saying that the requests could be turned down without an ally with the power to make it happen. PKT(alk) 15:00, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Same. From what I've seen, semi-protection tends to get granted on a reactionary basis, rather than a preventive basis. But if someone with time can write a decent proposal I'd support it for whatever that's worth. Echoedmyron (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Just noting that even mid-season minor league baseball is subject to this sort of thing: [5]. So just semi-ing articles based on competitive level or stage of the season may be somewhat arbitrary. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:10, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I also think that they should be protected, great idea. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 14:39, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

There should be at least pending changes or semi protection on those NHL team articles. This is getting too frustrating already. BattleshipMan (talk) 05:59, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

As you all know, the Colorado Avalanche is protected for a month. We need some long-term protections when it comes to these type of vandalisms. BattleshipMan (talk) 04:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Petition to change the roll over for the NHL Transaction pages

I'm going to petition once more to change the roll over date for our NHL Transaction Pages. Currently we are using the Entry Draft as our roll over, but it is a pretty arbitrary marker for trades and transactions. My better proposal would be for the first day of Free Agency. 1) It is a consistent day, July 1, compared to the Draft which varies year to year (save for this year where Free Agency is July 13 due to the extended season from COVID). 2) Free Agency marks the roll over for the League's contracts - contracts end and new contracts begin, signing bonuses are paid out, ELC contracts slide, contract years tick over, salary cap restrictions officially updates, bonus overages carry, etc. May as well use the same date as the League, no? 3) We don't even feature the draft on the page..! It has it's own separate article. 4) Opening of Free Agency, challenged only by Deadline Day, is the marquee day, really, of the League, in terms of transactions. Signings, imports being made official, trades, retirements, first chance to offer sheet. It takes up like half the article. (Not that that truly matters, but it's importance is undeniable).–uncleben85 (talk) 02:16, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Tampa Bay Lightning

We could use some help with vandalism in this article. Deadman137 (talk) 03:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I protected it for the next two weeks, which should slow things down until the Finals are over at least. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Boston Bruins

We might be having a problem in the 'captains' section, with Patrice Bergeron's tenure. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Conference trophies as player awards

An editor has been adding the Clarence S. Campbell Bowl and Prince of Wales Trophy to the Awards section in player articles, such as at Jack Johnson here: [6] - I suppose that if we include the Stanley Cup in such sections it follows that Conference titles would also get included, but seems odd to me to lump in team awards with personal ones. (I don't think this is the only editor doing it, just someone doing it now.) The style guide for player articles doesn't specify personal vs team awards. Feedback? Echoedmyron (talk) 10:37, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Team awards do not belong with individual accomplishments. Flibirigit (talk) 10:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Eeesh. And then we'll get divisional awards, and awards to teams with good community service, and divisional awards from when the players were in the minors, and ever more nonsense. No. Ravenswing 14:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I have removed the offending line from the Jack Johnson (ice hockey) article, btw. PKT(alk) 15:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, all. When I have a chance I can work on removing other instances of this and point back to this discussion. But am I right in concluding based on the above (brief) discussion that Stanley Cups - as a team award vs an individual one - should also get excised from such sections? Because those usages are even more prevalent. For example, Sidney Crosby has both Conference trophies and Cups in his section, although his is titled "Honors and achievements" rather than "Awards" for whatever that's worth. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Echoedmyron: Removed it from Crosby's and other pages, because the same editor added it. If I remember correctly, there was a discussion about conference championships in BLPs in the past and the result was that it does not not belong in BLPs. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

And here is the discussion that I had in mind – Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive75#Conference trophies in player pages. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, @Sabbatino:, I appreciate the help and the link to the prior discussion. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree with the removals, as those are team trophies. GoodDay (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Don Cherry page moved

Don Cherry was recently moved to Don Cherry (hockey commentator). If disambiguation was necessary, it should have been moved to Don Cherry (ice hockey) as per WP:NCSP. Any thoughts?

I would agree that "(ice hockey)" is a better disambiguator. PKT(alk) 13:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Page move shouldn't of happened at all. He's the most recognised 'Don Cherry'. @Kkollaps: had no consensus to move it. GoodDay (talk) 15:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I've submitted a revert request at WP:RMT. 162 etc. (talk) 22:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. The above request was granted to revert the page move. Flibirigit (talk) 17:11, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Greater Toronto Hockey League

The article for Greater Toronto Hockey League contradicts itself. The introduction states it was founded by Fred Waghorne, whereas the body states it was founded by Frank Smith. Is anyone familiar with the league's history? Flibirigit (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

This article [7] states that the Beaches Hockey League was co-founded by 4 individuals; presumably Waghorne and Smith were two of them. 162 etc. (talk) 19:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Shea Weber's status

Not sure why, but many newbies & IPs keep insisting (via their edits) that Weber is a former player. AFAIK, Weber hasn't retired (yet) & was just traded to the Golden Knights. GoodDay (talk) 02:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Same thing happened with Brent Seabrook. Deadman137 (talk) 11:48, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Well ... they haven't submitted retirement paperwork to the league offices yet. But since when were we about parroting the NHL's technical status? The Webers, Seabrooks, Boychuks and Klefboms are never going to play again. In a number of cases they've publicly said so. We are tasked here to report fact, not the official POV (among other things, we refer to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, however much the Russian government hotly maintains they have done nothing of the sort).

And sheesh: if the player/s change their mind, then we just undo the "former" player tag. Elapsed time what, four seconds? Ravenswing 21:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Disagree; it's typical in sports to announce one's retirement. If a player hasn't announced his/her retirement, then he/she is not considered retired (and reliable sources will not refer to him/her as retired.) While it is very unlikely that Shea Weber actually comes off LTIR, he isn't retired until he announces it. 162 etc. (talk) 22:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

You mean YOU do not "consider" him retired. So stipulated, but so what? In any event, we're not talking about whether a player is listed as being "retired." The wording as set forth is "former," which is in fact accurate. The phrasing used in the Seabrook and Boychuk articles, just to name two, is "former professional ice hockey [player] under contract to ..." Ravenswing 23:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

If reliable sources refer to Shea Weber or others as a "former" player, then our article should follow suit. Can you cite such sources? 162 etc. (talk) 16:10, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Happy to oblige. [8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21]. Ravenswing 16:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

This isn't as cut-and-dry as you seem to think. From your sources:

• [22]: "Shea Weber is retired for all intents and purposes"
• [23]: Drouin hearsay
• [24] More Drouin hearsay
• [25] "his career was probably over because of injuries"
• [26] "quite likely Weber’s career is over"

Etc...

Note that nothing here says "former player Shea Weber" or "retired player Shea Weber." The only source I could find so far that says that is Wikipedia, and that's a problem. 162 etc. (talk) 16:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

"Hearsay?" Wikipedia does not operate off of the United States courtroom codes. I posted a small heap of items from reliable sources -- just as you requested -- attesting to the fact that Weber's not going to play again, including quotes from his teammates and his general manager. You should be well aware that players these days do not formally submit retirement papers until their contracts expire, because they still want to get paid. (Beyond that, if he DID formally retire, he'd be screwing both Montreal and his former Nashville team, both subject to cap recapture penalties.) This is arguing just for the sake of arguing. Ravenswing 22:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

(As a side note: Weber's retirement before, say, last season, would have kept Montreal from benefiting from another below annual average value contract year, which reduces Montreal's cap recapture penalty. Nashville's penalty is already locked in at ~$24.5 million. Weber's retirement just triggers when Nashville has to start charging the penalty to its salary cap, and over how many years: either the remaining length of the contract, or, with the new CBA capping the maximum annual charge to the contract's average annual value, for as many years necessary to repay the penalty. See [27] for some handy charts and discussion.) isaacl (talk) 22:49, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Whenever one person reports what another is saying, that's hearsay. Technically speaking, anything less than actually hearing a person say the words in your presence is hearsay. It's not an issue in itself for determining if a source is reliable—after all, a lot of sources we use are descriptions of what someone else said, including interview coverage. The actual question is whether or not a teammate's analysis of what he has heard is suitable as a source. I agree, though, we should follow the consensus of sources: if they call Weber a "former" player, then the Wikipedia article can do the same. Otherwise, just add a sentence saying that Weber is unlikely to ever play again, and cite it to the various sources saying this. isaacl (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Isaacl Ravenswing Exactly. Wikipedia follows what the sources say. It's fine in Weber's case to say that he is unlikely to play again, citing the above sources. But to call him retired is verging on WP:OR. 162 etc. (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Can we 'at least' wait until the beginning of the 2022–23 season, to see what Weber does? Before we consider using "former"? GoodDay (talk) 23:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Don Cherry move proposal... again

Please see Talk:Don Cherry and comment as you like. Flibirigit (talk) 16:51, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

NHL Entry Drafts

Why is it that we don't include letter like Ä, Ö, Å, Ø, ẞ, Š etc in the player and team names in the articles about the drafts? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 17:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Most of us in English Wikipedia don't have those characters on our keyboards......nor do we know when to use specially-accented letters. The Insert drop-down menu at the bottom of the window I'm typing in right now doesn't appear to have those letters, either. PKT(alk) 18:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

We don't use diacritics in NHL non-bio based articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

The sports media and other reliable sources in Canada and the U.S. that cover the NHL generally do not use these diacritics, so in a way we are complying with MOS:TIES here. All NHL articles are primarily in North American English. The general MOS:DIACRITICS guidelines do state that "Sometimes usage will be influenced by other guidelines, such as National varieties of English, which may lead to different choices in different articles". Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

International stats and team placement

Inspired by the discussion above about the Campbell TrophyBowl, I want to get some thoughts about the current standard for individual players' international stats. Apparently under the player pages format it calls for team placement to be noted here (so if the team won gold, silver, finished 13th, etc). Aside from that standard having been done up literally years ago (in 2013), I find that it is redundant for two reasons: like discussed about the Campbell TrophyBowl, team accomplishments are for teams, not individuals; and if a player won a medal, there's a solid medal infobox that is used for this explicit purpose (and is already used on nearly all articles). With that said I want to call for an update to the format and remove the result column, so it just lists: year, country, tournament, then stats. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Completely agree with the proposal. I always thought if this has been discussed. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:52, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Support. I haven't come across this one recently, but I agree and updating the player page format guideline is a good idea. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Go for it. PS - It's the Campbell 'Bowl' ;) GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Good call, it's even written above like I said. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

2023 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships Coding issue

Does anyone know how to fix the issue at 2023 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships? It is transcluding information from the Division II article, but it's bringing in more than it's supposed to, and creating a mess. I can't figure out how to fix that, so wanted to see if anyone here knows? Kaiser matias (talk) 20:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Czech_Republic_men's_national_ice_hockey_team#Page_move

For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

There appears to be a consensus for a move. What do the rest of you think? GoodDay (talk) 21:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Finals roster formats

I thought I'd go through all of our SCF articles and note the different formats used for team rosters. I prefer the more modern style we have been using in the recent past with appearances in the Finals. I would support a project to bring the rest of the tables into the same unified format.

• Simple list format: 1893-1918, 1920-1972
• Simple table format: 1973-1985, 1987, 2009
• Appearance table format: 1919 (outdated format), 1986, 1988-2001, 2002 (outdated format), 2003-2004, 2006 (outdated format), 2007, 2008 (outdated format), 2010-2022

I would think starting with updating the outdated format tables in the third list would be the easiest to tackle. Then converting the simple tables to the appearance tables, and then adding it to all of the missing articles in the first group. Jmj713 (talk) 19:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm all for consistency. GoodDay (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Loan players

Atleast in Europe, loaning players to other teams and leagues is really common. But when i look at a roster and there are loan players, how would i know that if i didn't click on the name and read the article? I think that this is a problem. We could do sections that list loan players in the team and players out on loan. It should have the duration of the loan marked there too. Can i get your opinions on this? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 07:12, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Does that happen in Europe? It's not a practice in North America - players are either sent to minor league affiliates or they're put on waivers to become available for other teams to acquire them. PKT(alk) 18:16, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

AFAIK, loaning players within & between North American professional ice hockey leagues, doesn't happen. GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Loans do occur in the NHL, and there are different types of loans. The first type of loan that most of us a probably familiar with is the AHL conditioning loan (though you may hear it more often referred to as a conditioning stint). That in itself can be done formally (a 14-day loan to the minor league affiliate), or informally through some LTIR finagling. The other type of loan that is not often talked about (cause it rarely, if ever involves an NHL player) is where an AHL player will be loaned to a non-affiliated league (i.e. in Europe) for whatever reason (roster spots, most recently a number of teams did this because of COVID interruptions).

Also, this part is sorta anecdotal... but I want to say I remember hearing a story where an NHL team loaned a prospect goalie to a unaffiliated ECHL/AHL to give him some playing time... But that I might be misremembering.

Saying all that, for loans that affect the NHL (conditioning loans), its already somewhat denoted with the injured symbol, as these loans usually occur before the player is taken off LTIR. Leventio (talk) 19:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Sending an NHL player down to a minor league is a player loan (see [28] for more info). Although an NHL team usually loans its players to its AHL affiliate, the article lists a couple of examples where the NHL team loaned its player to another team's affiliate. According to their Wikipedia articles, in one case it was to allow the player to stay close to family; in the other, the team's affiliate didn't want to make roster room for the player. isaacl (talk) 21:25, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Loans have happened with NHL players. Look up Michael Nylander. The Capitals loaned him to the Red Wings organization, which placed him in Grand Rapids; the Caps subsequently loaned him to Jokerit in Finland and then to the Florida Panthers organization, which placed him in Rochester. The Nylander article on Wikipedia mentions salary cap issues, but Nylander also had a very serious falling out with the Caps' coaching staff after Glen Hanlon was fired and Bruce Boudreau brought in a very different style of play. Nylander was well-suited for Hanlon's system but wasn't suited for Boudreau's. 1995hoo (talk) 21:34, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, so there are player loan arrangements in North America on occasion. So, how do you feel about the issue originally raised by Kilaseell? PKT(alk) 22:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

In most cases, I don't think the details of the loan arrangements are announced. Generally speaking, I think readers are most interested in who owns the player's contract (thus who owns the rights for the player). Looking at Laval Rocket#Current roster as an example, this corresponds to the "Contract" column in the table. I feel that's sufficient. isaacl (talk) 22:37, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Ice hockey infoboxes

Why do ice hockey infoboxes look different than other sports infoboxes (samples of NBA, NFL, MLB)? Some of the main differences I see is that the hockey infoboxes do not have years next to the list of teams and there is no "awards section". Is there a good reason for these, or other differences? Natg 19 (talk) 22:24, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

We just don't want in them, what's in the infoboxes of those other sports. GoodDay (talk) 02:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay...but why don't you want of them? That response doesn't answer my question at all. Natg 19 (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:HOCKEY's choice. GoodDay (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I feel that sports infoboxes have become too big and bloated. Often the infobox is bigger than the article itself. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE states to summarize the key points of an article, rather than supplant the article. It is rather sad that trivial information is being crammed into an infobox at the expense of a well-written article. Flibirigit (talk) 17:40, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I personally wouldn’t be opposed to having the current team color stripe with uniform number like the other sports but not sure how others feel about it Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 02:26, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Meh, I see that as pointless decoration. Team articles sure, where it is part of the team identity, but less relevant to the player what color he wears, and the current team parameter already IDs the current team. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:05, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Free agency signings order

As the flood of free agent signings have happened today, @uncleben85 (and occasionally myself) have been adding the signings as they’ve been announced. My question is, should they be in alphabetical order as the default? That’s how it’s done for NBA free agent signings Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 02:07, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd recommend following how it's done in the other Season NHL transactions pages. GoodDay (talk) 02:08, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

USNTDP player stats

I was just curious on the consensus of adding stats for players who have played within the U.S. National Team Development Program?

I remember years ago it was agreed to only add stats from their participation the USHL but have now increasingly noticed the under-17 and under-18 level USDP stats have been included. Is this now the accepted practice? eg. Logan Cooley in comparison to Cutter Gauthier.

It does kind of lead into the wider question of all junior stats being shown? i tend to see everything is just mirrored from elitprospects.com which can now go back as far as stats from 12/13 years old, but that's another can of worms. I don't mind either way but just looking for consistency. Cheers for any input Triggerbit (talk) 02:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Great question! Personally, I feel, if the information is available, we could (should?) include minor junior play? But cap it at like Junior A Canadian, or Tier II American. So, obviously the CHL, USHL, but then also, say BCHL and NAHL, for example. I think enough notable players are coming from the likes of those leagues now, it's not unreasonable. Otherwise, cap it at CHL and USHL, nothing lower. Of course, that doesn't even touch on American and Canadian High School leagues or collegiate/development/prep schools/academies/programs - most high schools are well below in quality, but, say Shattuck St Mary's or St. Andrews College routinely pump out prospects and players now... Should we include the underage USDP development games if not including other development academies and programs? A lot to toss around, don't know if I helped. But I do think, in general, if we have access to the information, nothing wrong with providing more information than less. –uncleben85 (talk) 16:32, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I know myself when I add them (as I've been doing the past while to all NHL players, former and present), I go with whatever both Eliteprospects and NHL.com have listed, which is usually from the player's 15-year-old season or so. While going to something like atom or whatever would be a little ridiculous (never mind finding reliable sources for that), I also think showing the program that they come from is relevant, and if the information is there why not use it? Kaiser matias (talk) 15:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

NHL Transactions start date

So, there has been a bit of an edit war going on in 2021–22 NHL transactions. It being the start of the 2022–23 NHL transactions. I am curious as to what date needs to be the well-established time frame of when to put trades, free agent signings, contract terminations, in the next year's article. I have heard many suggestions, but I am mainly for consistency between NHL transaction articles.

The dates suggested are:

• After the final game of the playoffs
• Once the playoff-pause begins after the trade deadline
• After the NHL Awards
• On Draft Day
• On the day of Free Agency

It's important to note that players signed after the trade deadline and before the end of the playoffs are not allowed to play (unless they are on the reserve list for that team). Trades that happen during the playoffs do not affect the current season, but has implications for the year after. However, it's also worth noting that players' contracts end or roll over to the next year on the day of Free Agency. I just want a consistent start date for this, no more switching between articles to figure out where to find trades/signings on Draft Day. Conyo14 (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I always figured it began after the entry draft. Kinda the beginning of the next season's business, as it were. FWIW, at this very moment, all 32 NHL teams have their infoboxes updated to 2022–23 season. PS - How's it done on the other "Season NHL Transactions" pages? GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

It's inconsistent, but it happens just days before the Entry Draft. Sometimes on Draft day though.Conyo14 (talk) 20:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

My personal choice would be Draft day itself as the starting gate, as the players chosen would relate to the 2022-23 season & beyond. But, you're correct, that there should be consistency on this matter. GoodDay (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I believe in past discussions we discovered that the league's new business year begins on July 1 (for example, that was the day the Kraken officially became members of the league), and that is the day the playoff trade embargo ends. With the draft only a few days after that, any trades in those few days are usually related to the draft. So I'd say July 1. oknazevad (talk) 21:27, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

July 1 is typically the day free agency starts. The two prior seasons were affected by Covid. So this person is going on when the trade embargo ends, which I'm not too sure which date that aligns with in an unaffected season. Conyo14 (talk) 21:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The Kraken officially joined the NHL on April 30, 2021, per [29] so they were members of the league during the 2020–21 season, the same thing happened with Vegas.

Players can be traded at any time under league rules. Players traded after the trade deadline in any particular season are ineligible to play until the next season. Deadman137 (talk) 21:37, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, it was free agency I was thinking of. But that does speak to the idea of using July 1, as that would be the first day players are signed for the following season, so it would also be a consistent choice to include trades that affect the following season. oknazevad (talk) 02:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually it doesn't, because in order to implement this idea all of the team season articles would be forced to remove any information about the draft and the players that were selected in the offseason. So for instance, any player selected in 2022 could not have their draft information in a 2022–23 article, they would have to be listed in 2021–22 and so on, and most of these players were not even eligible to play in that season so it would be illogical to have them listed there.

Ok, so I'm confused. Isn't the draft after the start of free agency? So with the start of free agency being the beginning of transactions that effect the following season the draft would be included as well? I really am just not understanding how using the start of free agency as the beginning forces the draft to be treated as part of the preceding season. At all. oknazevad (talk) 19:42, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

When does free agency begin this summer? GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Draft day was July 7-8, free agency is July 13 Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 20:24, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah, there's my confusion. I thought free agency started July 1. oknazevad (talk) 20:28, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

No? Draft was July 7-8, free agency starts July 13. Next year the draft will be late June and free agency on July 1 Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 20:25, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The whole reason that the draft was chosen as the first day of the new season was because the NHL awards used to take place a few days before the draft. As the NHL awards are about the previous season it made sense to delay the start date of the new season a little bit. Any proposal that does not allow the draft to be part of the upcoming season is a non-starter for me. Deadman137 (talk) 15:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Not to get off topic. But 2022–23 NHL transactions should be changed back from a re-direct to an article. GoodDay (talk) 02:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Definately. Masterhatch (talk) 02:52, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I've restored it as an article. GoodDay (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Since the draft day trades were moved over, should Duncan Keith’s retirement also be moved to the 2022-23 page? Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 01:52, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Go for it. GoodDay (talk) 01:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay so it seems there is consensus to not have Free Agency be the start of the next season. But are we in agreement about Draft Day as the beginning of the next season? Conyo14 (talk) 17:48, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I always considered entry draft day, as the beginning of business for the following season. The drafted players' are eligible to begin playing in the NHL, in the upcoming season. GoodDay (talk) 18:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

That is not actually true. The CBA is quite clear that the players are not eligible to play until they sign a contract which explicitly cannot happen until the opening of the new season, which is marked (typically) by July 1st. The teams acquire the players' rights on Draft Day, but they are not eligible to play (and not because there are no games).–uncleben85 (talk) 13:32, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Draft day makes sense to me. Masterhatch (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Hard disagree. July 1 is the date that the League rolls over. I admit I was letting it float because the League let it float the past two season, due to COVID, but July 1 should be the start. I am okay with picking another date, but electing Draft Day makes very little sense. It is a floating date that has no tie to League business dates nor any defining characteristic on player contracts and transactions. I would much prefer a hard date. First day of the new month makes sense so the article is much cleaner and doesn't require internal disambiguation (ie. "June" and "June (2023)"), no months are split across multiple pages, and it makes it easier for anyone to find either looking for information, or trying to contribute to the page. July 1st is my candidate due to that being the day the League has selected. Even if we for some reason are so set on a floating date, it should at least be tied to day the Stanley Cup is awarded and/or 48 hours after the Cup has been awared, as the League has written by-laws and set precedent on contract eligibility and transactions at that point.–uncleben85 (talk) 13:32, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

In these last three summers, the free-agency date has been later then July 1. Anyways, we're only two days away from the 2022 free agency period beginning. PS - I had to hide a few dates at the 2022–23 transaction page, as they contradicted the signings-in-principal. We can un-hide them, in two days. GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I think another issue that comes into play is the fact that after the trade deadline of the previous season, any players traded or signed cannot play until the next season. If it were Draft day, that still covers the fact, but July 1st, or start of free agency, makes it so that any free agent unsigned prior to the deadline will be on the prior transaction article despite being unable to play for that season. Similar to how the Kraken signed players prior to their inaugural season. If there was a source that told us when the heck things begin for next season, a consensus could be so much easier to reach.Conyo14 (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Just as I say this, I found this per NHL.com [30]. Note the bottom of the page where the entry draft is listed for the current season. I don't know if this is enough to go off of though. Conyo14 (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

There is this list from Capfriendly [31]. Helps to see when the League actually sees when contracts roll over, etc. and League business updates.

Interesting that the link you provided includes the 2022 NHL Draft as the end of the 2021-22 season, not the beginning of the 2022-23 season... hmmm... ;) –uncleben85 (talk) 16:22, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, that date has only changed to accommodate for COVID –uncleben85 (talk) 16:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

With the link I provided it does state that the 2022 NHL Entry Draft is part of the 2021–22 NHL season. Thus, I must express my siding with Free Agency as the start date for the succeeding season's transactions article. However, I feel a majority of users here must also side with this in order to gain some consensus.Conyo14 (talk) 17:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Anyone correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like we have: uncleben85, Conyo14, oknazevad, and Hotpotato1234567890 for Free Agency (July 1); GoodDay (or the day after the Draft), Deadman137 (or anytime before the Draft), and Masterhatch for Draft Day

TBH, I don't mind which is chosen, as long as it's consistent across all NHL transaction pages. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm also with GoodDay on this issue. I just want consistency, which is the whole reason I added this section in the first place.Conyo14 (talk) 16:13, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I feel the need to chime in here as I am the one adding, creating and curating the majority of the transaction data for the season pages. As it stands, yes, the accepted standard is that the cut-off is Draft Day. Unfortunately, I have yet to see a single person give a significant reason to make this change other than "oh this is what it should be." I've gone and said in the past how Draft Day doesn't make that much sense. However, making this change because "oh I don't get it" requires making a lot of unnecessary work for basically nothing. Let's go through the proposed options:

• After the final game of the playoffs/After the NHL Awards
  • Probably makes the most sense from a logical point of view, but how does this really affect anything? There aren't a significant amount of transactions between the end of the playoffs/awards day and Draft Day.
• Once the playoff-pause begins after the trade deadline
  • This one doesn't make any sense at all. Just because a player can't play with the NHL team that acquires them, they are still under contract with the team they were traded to. Absolutely no.
• On Draft Day
  • What it is now. Does anybody actually have any valid reasoning or issues in changing it? I haven't seen anything yet. It's interesting how many people have voted (?) even though no substantial discussion has actually taken place or pros or cons of the established standard.
• On the day of Free Agency
  • How does this make any difference to Draft Day? There is still no hockey being played, so no matter what transactions will affect the team in the coming season.

I would love to hear what everyone has to say. Nanerz (talk) 23:17, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I personally think after the Stanley Cup is awarded is a good time. For instance, Ryan McDonagh was traded to Nashville on July 3, a transaction that is very much a part of the upcoming season, 4 days before the draft and 10 days before free agency this year. As it stands right now, McDonagh’s trade is part of 2021-22 even though he was playing in the very last game of this past season. Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 01:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, but what difference does this make in reality? There's plenty of transactions - particularly of free agents - that don't affect the team until the upcoming season, but people have never cared about that. I agree that it probably makes more sense, but are we just going to decide without having any plan in how this will affect prior season pages? Nanerz (talk) 04:13, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I decided to look at the 2018-19 season transactions (last season not to have dates messed up by Covid) and it appears that all listed transactions are from right after the 2018 stanley cup through the final game of the 2019 stanley cup, which is what I’m proposing. What needs to be changed? Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't know if you're just blatantly lying or just don't know that dates, but that's not true. Don't know which pages you're looking at, but they all seem to be set at Draft Day. Nanerz (talk) 22:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Apparently I didn't double check what days the 2018 and 2019 Stanley Cups ended, sorry about that. It was an error in good faith, and now that I know that I agree with your position to leave it as draft day. Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 23:48, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Whatever causes the least amount of changes, is likely best. My only concern is consistency across the board. GoodDay (talk) 01:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

This is also my stance. I'm not entirely sure why people who aren't contributing and who won't be contributed are being as vocal as they are on this subject. Nanerz (talk) 04:13, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I have been away for personal reasons, but have laid out my reasons several times. Draft Day is a floating, inconsistent day that has nothing to do with the Transactions page. The floating day also causes us to have given months split across various pages, as well as having multiple of the same month, that internal disambiguations of what year they are. That's are my main reasons against it, off the cuff, but please read previous conversations for more. My reasoning for Free Agency is that it is a set date, easy to track and organize, AND, big kicker, it is the day that the League rolls over contracts and transactions and the cap. As one of the major contributors (not that I am claiming ownership on the articles, but just as some one very active on them), having that set, clear, logical date is much more conducive, and I agree, not sure why so many who do not contribute on these special projects have such strong opinion, sometimes. –uncleben85 (talk) 03:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The whole point of this thread is to create a consistent basis on this subject. Tbh I don't care which start date is chosen, but it should be consistent across the board. I think with covid it messed some stuff up. Plus, this season there was an edit war to determine which date it is. Looking back as far as I can, there really is no consistent way to tell when it begins. However, beginning in the 2007–08 NHL transactions article, we can plainly tell that the trading documentation begins on Draft Day, but the trades before the 2008 Entry Draft are listed in the article too (even after the playoffs). 2008–09 begins on Draft Day. It remains consistent until 2013–14 where some of the trades listed on the first day of the 2014 Entry Draft then some are listed on the 2014–15 article. Then it goes back to a bit more consistent with it beginning on Draft Day. So, how it's been done is it's on Draft Day. I'm voting: Draft Day Consistency helps readers go through articles. I'm sorry but there is no evidence from third party or even the NHL to determine the start of this. Until we have evidence, I prefer consistency.Conyo14 (talk) 18:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

"The whole point of this thread is to create a consistent basis on this subject."

This is my issue. There is a consistent basis on this subject already. It's Draft Day. That does not seem like the point of this thread. There is *no* reason to change this, or I have at least yet to hear one. Nanerz (talk) 22:56, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Therein lies part of the problem, though. If you are not nuanced in the Ice Hockey Project, specializing on the key dates of the NHL calendar, it appears as an inconsitent, arbitrary date. Draft Day is nonsensical for the common reader. –uncleben85 (talk) 03:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Duncan Keith

Which transaction page does Keith belong on, now that he's retired? 2021–22 or 2022–23. GoodDay (talk) 18:06, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I deleted Duncan Keith from 21-22, apparently I clicked copy instead of cut when I moved him over to 22-23. Hotpotato1234567890 (talk) 19:52, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Team rosters, birthplaces

I'm not gonna overly push on this, but was wondering. Seeing as we use "city, country" for all the non-Canadian & non-American birthplaces? Perhaps we should do the same for the Canadian & American born players? Do we really need (for example) "Nova Scotia" or "Minnesota", included in them? GoodDay (talk) 15:06, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I think we do, because many locality names are used in different jurisdictions. For example my hometown is Windsor - but there are 3 Windsors in Canada (four if you include Grand Falls-Windsor). I think it's reasonable to differentiate them. PKT(alk) 15:20, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I was figuring, in those situations we'd use the "[City, province, territory or state|City]" method. GoodDay (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

IIHF: Czech Republic or Czechia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

From what I've observed this year, the IIHF has chosen to recognise Czech national teams as being under the name Czechia. I don't know how to open up an RM (or multiple RMs) for this matter & so I'm going the RFC route. GoodDay (talk) 20:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

So, which should we use?

• A) Czechia
• B) Czech Republic

Survey

• B. Czechia isn't English, Czech Republic is. Wikipedia has a convention for the Czech Republic and it should follow this convention across articles on the republic. This has already been discussed so many times on the country level and Czech Republic is the consensus: 2021, 2019, 2018, 2016, 2016 earlier. It's pointless to beat the same dead horse over and over again. --StellarNerd (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• B per StellarNerd. We should only use a divergent "sporting nationality" name when English-language sources strongly also do so.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• B, per StellarNerd. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
• A - Such sources are doing so, in the IIHF beginning in 2022. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• A Unless I am mistaken, we are not talking about the country, but the team. And when discussing what the team does at IIHF events, we should refer to the team as the IIHF does. Echoedmyron (talk) 02:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
• A As per how the team itself is identifying–uncleben85 (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

To clarify. We're discussing the name of the national ice hockey teams & not the country itself. Nobody's trying to get the page Czech Republic changed. GoodDay (talk) 02:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The team represents a country. Wikipedia tries to keep a set of conventions across articles. Furthermore just because the IIHF does something doesn't mean English media does so. For instance BBC is reporting in May 2022: Great Britain beaten 5-1 by Czech Republic in opener. ESPN in May 2022: Team USA drops 'a tough one' in world hockey championship semifinal, will play Czech Republic. --StellarNerd (talk) 04:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

In your ESPN example, the headline may say "Czech Republic" but the URL actually says "Czechia", FWIW. Also, it refers to "Team USA" and not "the United States", so clearly we are able to make distinctions between national teams and the countries they represent. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The URL says nothing, that's the bottom of the Barrel. The title of the ESPN piece is " Team USA drops 'a tough one' in world hockey championship semifinal, will play Czech Republic ". Then further down "Canada, which won the tournament last season, powered past Czech Republic 6-1 in the second semifinal.", and then "Team USA will meet Czech Republic in the third-place game Sunday.". All of these refer to the Czech Republic team, not the country. --StellarNerd (talk) 17:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

If the majority of ice hockey sources are using Czechia, for international tournaments? So should we. GoodDay (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The same rationale that led to the country's name consensus can be used for the adoption of Czechia with regards to the team if it is the case that most English-language sources have adopted the use of Czechia when referring to the national team.

With that in mind, with regards to the team's name, the IIHF's move to adopt Czechia as the name has caught on with some ice hockey sources (The Hockey News, NHL.com). But quite a few sources have also continued to use Czech Republic (NBC, hockeydb). I feel like this proposal might be a "too soon" kind of situation. The IIHF has only recently adopted Czechia, and there hasn't been enough time yet to determine whether or not that change will spread to other hockey publications/sources (while I do see it trending towards adoption, we'd get a better gauge of things if we looked at this further down the line). Leventio (talk) 19:18, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Capitalization of Men's Ice Hockey Tournament etc.?

See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject College Basketball#Over-capitalization. If things like NCAA Division I Men's Ice Hockey Tournament are not the full proper names of the tournaments, I propose to move them to NCAA Division I men's ice hockey tournament. Or if they are proper names, let's find some sources to support that interpretation. Women's, too. Championship, too? Dicklyon (talk) 18:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: would I be correct in assuming this also covers pages like 2022 Men's Ice Hockey World Championships? -- GoodDay (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

In the case of the IIHF tournaments their rule books capitalize and treat their tournaments as proper nouns. Whether they include the term "men" in the title for the men's tournaments comes and goes.18abruce (talk) 20:17, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not able to find capitalized tournament names in the rule book you linked. Can you quote it or cite a page number or something? Dicklyon (talk) 20:38, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

pg 7, 8, 9, 10. Sorry the document that I meant to link was this one though. They seem to capitalize everything related to their tournaments and are not a 3rd party source, so I am not sure how conclusive it is. Don't really care as long as links aren't screwed up.18abruce (talk) 02:33, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, one of us must still be looking at the wrong doc; I can't find capitalized "Tournament" or "Men's" in there anywhere, but yes, lots of things capitalized that are not proper names. So this specialist source seems pretty irrelevant. Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Well they use the term 'Championship' not 'Tournament' but I thought the point was the proper nouns (or not), not some specific search parameter. Try reading the pages I pointed out while looking for the capitalized words. You will find: 'IIHF Men’s World Championship (pg 7) 'IIHF Ice Hockey Women’s World Championship (pg 8 and 9 multiple times), and IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship multiple times on page 10. Get's sparse after that but the second document is painfully obvious.18abruce (talk) 03:57, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

"IIHF World Championships" does seem to be most-often capped in sources. But that's not the pattern I'm asking about here. As for those with "Men's" and "Women's", you're going back to your first-linked doc I guess, which has "The IIHF Men’s World Ranking and the IIHF Women’s World Ranking will be released directly after the IIHF Men’s World Championship category and the IIHF Women’s World Championship category are respectively completed." It's hard to understand their capitalization style, especially where the capped phrases modify "category". I'd say there's no signal there; let's look at independent sources. Dicklyon (talk) 05:16, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

As for 2022 Men's Ice Hockey World Championships, I have not looked at that. What do sources do? Dicklyon (talk) 20:44, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

The sources? don't know. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, when we get to that, we'll decide by looking at sources in light of MOS:CAPS, as usual. Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Again, the discussion is at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject College Basketball#Over-capitalization, if you have points to consider. Dicklyon (talk) 05:16, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

And now I've open a multi-RM discussion at Talk:ACC Men's Basketball Tournament#Requested move 23 August 2022. Dicklyon (talk) 05:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Template:Start date and age

Hello, recently @Truthanado: had added in Template:Start date and age, to the founding dates of NHL teams. I reverted him, but am wondering. Should we have the template included or not? GoodDay (talk) 02:17, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

This has been dicussed in the past and everyone was against it. – Sabbatino 02:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Link to this past discussion? Zaathras (talk) 02:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Can you link to the most recent discussion on this in the archives please? I've done a quick search of the archives of both this WikiProject and WP:SPORTS and no obvious hits came up. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I can't find a discussion where a consensus was reached to use the Template-in-question, for hockey teams (let alone sports teams) pages. GoodDay (talk) 02:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Well Sabbatino has said there is at least one past discussion where the consensus outcome was to exclude the template. It would be helpful to review that discussion to see what the various arguments are, to avoid unnecessary repetition. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I checked through the 6 major sports of North America. What I've found, is that the NFL & MLS teams are using the template. But, the NHL, CFL, MLB & NBA teams are not using the template. GoodDay (talk) 02:50, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I mean, all we're talking about is changing this to this, so it gives "X years ago" after the year of founding. How is this not useful info, so the reader doesn't have to do the math in their head if they'd like to see the age of the franchise? Zaathras (talk) 12:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Because its trivial information and not really necessary. -DJSasso (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

IIHF Women's World Championship pages

We've a page 2003 IIHF Women's World Championships, which is out-of-sync with all the other Year IIHF Women's World Championship page titles. The rest don't use the 'plural' form. GoodDay (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Would appreciate input at the related RM. -- GoodDay (talk) 17:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Daryl Katz

User:DJ for Katz left a message on my talk page regarding the wording in the Daryl Katz article. I think it best to bring the request here to draw attention instead to see if anyone agrees with User:DJ for Katz's version or if anyone thinks the current wording is best. Bring ideas and comments to Talk:Daryl Katz. Masterhatch (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Hockeydb.com

I'm reviewing Jim Pappin at GAN, and I asked in Talk:Jim Pappin/GA1 the review what makes hockeydb.com a reliable source -- I know little about ice hockey, and per the credits page it appears to be a one-person operation. The nominator, Bloom6132, pointed out that it was listed here as a source. If it's a one-man operation it can still be reliable, but it would help to have other evidence -- does it get cited by reliable sources such as major news organizations for the data? Are there any mentions of it in hockey reference works? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:12, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Mike Christie, great question. Hockeydb is a particularly comprehensive compendium of hockey stats that's been around since the late 90s. The site is, in a sense, a redistributor of statistics, so while it's a one-man show, I find that such a model is less suspect compared to a one-man show that is, say, a blog. The FAQ discusses some quality control matters, while showing a very sophisticated knowledge of various hockey stat sources and availability. There's a Globe and Mail article about hockeydb, which shows it's a fairly popular site for equally for obscure leagues, information for which might not be readily available elsewhere, and the NHL. It is used by other organizations for statistical information, e.g. Sportsnet [32][33], TSN [34][35], CBC [36][37]. Those six links are just examples—I didn't need to, nor did I, spend that much time looking for references to Hockeydb in relevant reliable sources. :-) While perhaps a circular argument, it's been used seemingly since forever all over Wikipedia. My TLDR assessment would be that while it is a one-man show, Hockeydb also happens to be particularly comprehensive, has a very strong reputation in the hockey world, and has a lot of information that cannot or is very difficult to find online elsewhere. Maxim_(talk) 13:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the extensive use by other reliable sources certainly makes it good enough for GA. Thanks for the quick reply. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:05, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll tout Ralph Slate's work as well, while confessing a touch of bias (he's a fellow Springfield-area hockey fan). One thing I appreciate about Ralph is that on the very rare occasion when I've found an error -- and very obscure ones to boot -- he's quick to respond and make corrections. (This is something that can't be said for the Hockey Hall of Fame site, which used to be riddled with errors, or many official team pages, more interested in promoting the teams' POV than in hockey history.) Ravenswing 13:21, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Hockeygods.com

While reviewing Percy LeSueur for GA, I ran Earwig, which found this page on HockeyGods.com, which I was able to figure out was a copy from our article, though the date given on that page seems wrong. Their page on Jack Marshall (ice hockey) is also a copy, so I suspect there are many such copies. A search finds a couple of dozen Wikipedia pages that cite HockeyGods. Would it be a good idea to list on this project page this site and any other mirrors, as unreliable sources? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

This specific site would need to be cleaned up, but I suspect that it's just one such site, and there are plenty of others with 20-some+ uses on Wikipedia. Maxim_(talk) 11:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right -- I was more thinking about having an "unreliable" listing which would help non-hockey-knowledgeable reviewers like me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

RFC related to ice hockey bios

An RFC is being held which may affect the birth/death places of many ice hockey personnel. GoodDay (talk) 04:51, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

TheHockeyWriters.com

Another source question for a GA -- I see thehockeywriters.com is not in the list of sources on this page. I'm reviewing Derick Brassard for GA and am trying to assess the reliability of the source. The nominator, GhostRiver, linked to this page, and pointed out that it shows they pay (based on traffic), and that there are testimonials on the page from people who are now professionals. What I don't see is that if they accept a writer ("We are seeking both the serious journalist who likes posting often, our beat writers, as well as part-timers who might not have the time to post every few days. Experienced casual writers who write at a high level but may only have time for a weekly post can also call THW home.") then is there editorial control over their work? The site does seem to be a bit more than just a fan site that covers games; it's kickstarted into a semiprofessional level, funded by ads, no doubt. The only text in the article that uses this site as a source is "Despite this setback, the 2014–15 season was a career year for Brassard, who surpassed his previous career high with his 48th point of the season during the Rangers' February 24 game against the Calgary Flames. Despite a goal-scoring drought, he maintained a steady point pace with frequent assists" which is cited to this page. The author, Tom Dianora, is not a professional; he wrote for them as a student. Does the site have a good rep with professional organizations? Does it get cited by other reliable sources? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:14, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Mike Christie, I used to write with Fansided (a non-RS, I completely agree with this!) and this website was viewed on the same level by the other editors there. I do not view it as an RS based on exactly the point you used above. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 22:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I can think of all of about one blogsite I've ever used for a source, and that only a couple of times: Joe Pelletier's, and his research is extensive and impeccable. Even so, I'd never dare to use him in a GA article. The very point of a GA is that each and every source must be unimpeachable. I'd take the writers on a case-by-case basis: do they, individually, have a strong reputation in the industry? For a student writer on a semi-pro site, the answer would be "absolutely not." Ravenswing 22:50, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, both; that's very helpful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:40, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

To expand on my answer, if a Dave Molinari, a Bob McKenzie, a Roy MacGregor wants to pick up some extra pocket change for their work (and Molinari did just that with Pittsburgh Hockey Now), their work is just as good, IMHO, as it was when writing for outfits like the Post-Gazette, the Globe and Mail, or the Hockey News. By contrast, I see that the ostensible Bruins beat writer for thehockeywriters.com is a Boston University student going for a degree in screenwriting. Fair enough, but that's no better a credential than when I was a Northeastern University student going for a journalism degree, and covering the Huskies hockey team. Ravenswing 00:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Proposal related to featuring this sport at Wikipedia:In the news

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:In the news § Remove ITN/R: Sports cleanup.
Currently one or more of this sport's events are listed at Wikipedia:In the news/Recurring items, meaning that they have been judged significant enough that, if nominated, they will always be posted to the In the news section of the main page (subject to article quality being sufficient). However a proposal has been made to remove some that not been nominated recently from that list. If the proposal is successful, the event(s) may still be nominated but the nomination will debate the significance of the event as well as article quality.
The event(s) relevant to this sport are: Ice Hockey World Championships.
To avoid splitting discussion, please leave your comments in at the linked discussion rather than here. Thryduulf (talk) 20:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

NovaCapsFans.com

Another GA source question; this has come up in a couple of reviews. NovaCapsFans is used in Martin Fehérváry multiple times. The nominator, HickoryOughtShirt?4, found this as an example of a reliable source citing them, and points out that the Capitals have credentialled them. That page also says "NoVa Caps is “by the people, for the people”, meaning we want your input. If you have any tips, news, photos, or insights, we’d love to hear from you", which is concerning, and I can't see evidence that they exert editorial control over the submitted material. Is there other evidence that could establish this as a reliable source? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

HickoryOughtShirt?4 found this NBC report which cites NovaCaps. I'm going to treat it as reliable for GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Lower casing of First team & Second team All stars.

Whoah, when did the NHL start lower casing to "NHL first team all star" & "NHL second team all star"? Noting, the vast changes across several NHL bios. Also related changes made to several NHL teams. GoodDay (talk) 02:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I don't think anyone changed "All-Star" to "all star" or anything like that. No such vast changes, just downcasing some "team", "first", etc. where not part of a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 22:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank goodness. GoodDay (talk) 17:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

When they told off some ignorant intern to do NHL.com writeups, I expect. When the NHL changes the usage in their official press releases ... well, we'd still be bound by COMMONNAME. Ravenswing 07:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It also looks like someone who has an interest in reducing capital letters for a variety of topics, though I don't know if they understand the context here. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah. I just dropped a note on Dicklyon's talk page. I'm going to give him until Monday before doing some mass reverts. And nope, when GoodDay first posted, I thought NHL.com was changing their own nomenclature to lower case. This is not the case; they still use "First Team" and "Second Team." Ravenswing 04:54, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to lowercase. Tennis articles lost this same battle a little while ago and it's moving from sport to sport to sport. Baseball was able to fend it off because of a very active WikiProject. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Your fight to cap "Men's Doubles" and such is a pretty good analogy. Not supported by sources, not compatible with WP style, and consensus to fix, so we fixed. Recent discussions re things like "Men's Basketball Tournament" elicited a strong sentiment to not just fix it for basketball, but to do other sports at the same time; so you'll see a lot of recent work on soccer, volleyball, ice hockey, lacrosse, and other where similar patterns were found. In the process, I found lots of other phrases that were over-capitalized (e.g. "First Round", "Regular Season", ...), and haven't stopped to discuss every one. If there's pushback, let's talk, like we're doing here. There were thousands of case corrections in baseball, too, but yes a recent RM discussion did go the wrong way after I forgot to timely list it at WT:MOSCAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 22:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Supported by many tennis sources. The usual four of you of course since tennis project doesn't have that many active participants. But baseball project does and they slammed that door quickly. I assume they will all eventually fall as dominoes. I wasn't bringing you up, simply pointing out to Ravenswing that it will likely be a losing cause. But you seem to be fixated on me in some absurd way that it's kind of creepy. Go badger some more editors as is your usual style now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You followed me here, not vice versa. You lost that argument about sources; even tennis sources don't usually cap such things in sentences, as you were shown. Dicklyon (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually it got listed so I simply checked it out. But as usual you decide to hound and make personal as is your usual pattern of attack and abuse. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

GoodDay, when you complain about my edits, you should notify me. The relevant guidance here is in MOS:CAPS, as usual. We don't necessarily follow NHL style. If you look in books, these things are nowhere close to consistently capitalized (I showed Ravenswings some search links at the discussion he started on my talk page). Dicklyon (talk) 16:45, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Hurricane Fiona, got in the way. GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

If you look at actual relevant sources (a few of which I just dropped on your talk page), instead of casual glances at the first page of Google searches, you will see that "First/Second Team All-Star" is the NHL's official title for such awards, in the same fashion as "Stanley Cup" or "Hart Memorial Trophy" is the official and correct usage for those awards. It is arrogant as all hell to decide that your private, uninformed interpretation of MOS:CAPS overrides sports leagues' official constructions, and you can either set your misguided edits right, or we can take this to ANI. Ravenswing 18:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Capitalization of "Stanley Cup" and "Hart Memorial Trophy" are strongly supported by consistent capitalization in independent reliable sources. That's not what you find for phrases like "All-Star team", "first-team All-Star", "first team All-Stars", "All-Star first team", etc. Let's look at what's there instead of trying to compare to something very different. Dicklyon (talk) 22:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

As for ANI, I'm pretty sure that admins prefer we discuss here first. There's no ongoing incident that needs admin intervention. If you have arguments on capitalization that you can make, relative to policies and guidelines, please do make them. Invoking the official style of an organization that's not Wikipedia is not something that guidelines favor; quite the contrary, per WP:OFFICIAL (though that's more about article titles than capitalization/style). Dicklyon (talk) 23:46, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• When I was growing up in the dark ages, I was taught that all words in titles and headlines were capitalised except for prepositions and articles (unless, obviously it's the 1st word). When I first started editting wikipedia many moons ago, it was a mix and at some point it was decided to do away with capitals. I still think titles look better capitalised (otherwise they "look" like sentences). If there's a vote on this, I say keep the capitals on these All Star pages. That's just my 2 cents. Masterhatch (talk) 19:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  Wikipedia has used "sentence case" for titles and headings, as opposed to "title case", since its earliest days, for very good reasons related to linking. The thing about capping all words in titles and headlines is still used for work titles, but never has been for article titles. Rather, we cap the first word, and do the rest the same way it would appear in a sentence. When source usage is mixed, we default to lowercase. See MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 22:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  Also, note that we're not discussing page titles here, nor "All Star pages", so it's not clear what you think you're voting on. Dicklyon (talk) 23:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• If I understand correctly, the argument here is to cap these things in the context of the NHL, but not for other hockey leagues or other sports. Is that correct? Dicklyon (talk) 23:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  @GoodDay and Ravenswing: – Am I interpreting you correctly? Dicklyon (talk) 02:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  You are interpreting me correctly. The NHL uses such constructions in their official nomenclature for First and Second Team All-Stars, and I'm being exact in that usage -- the confusion some editors here who appear less knowledgeable about hockey have may stem from that there is an annual All-Star game, and players are selected to play for All-Star teams, a much less important honor and where the NHL explicitly does not capitalize "teams." But as far as other leagues or other sports, no, I'm not going to assert usages where I'm not certain. The minor league American Hockey League also uses "First and Second Team All-Stars," but that also affects far fewer articles. Ravenswing 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know how the other hockey leagues do it. But, I'm sure that the NHL capitalises. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• WP usually downcases unless the overwhelming majority of outside instances are capped. I don't care what boosterism the NHL engages in, downcasing would be an improvement and make WP more internally consistent. Tony (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
• This is a discussion about style and particularly capitalisation. WP has a house style and there is a social contract in editing WP to follow the WP house style (and WP:P&G generally) rather than some other style such as that used by the NHL. Per MOS:CAPS, we would only capitalise that which is capitalised consistently in independent sources. Obviously, the NHL is not independent of itself. This thread also refers to a discussion at DL's TP. Evidence provided there does not support such terms being consistently capitalised in independent sources. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:56, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  This is not a "style." This is the official title of the award. No one would make this absurd argument about the "Stanley cup," however much I'm sure I can dredge up some sources that misspell it. Ravenswing 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Which is the offical title of the award and where can we find a source that says so, in case someone think following NHL official style is important? Dicklyon (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• If it's not near-uniformly capitalized in reliable sources independent of the subject, then don't capitalize it on WP. Doesn't matter what the subject is (sports, science, F&SF fandom topics, etc., etc.). We have MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS for a reason.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

To no one's surprise the same four editors show up and pontificate on adherence to the guideline they wrote with almost no input from outside editors after being canvassed via the obscure guideline talk page which has almost no other contributors and keeps a running tab of discussions in a blatant violation of WP:CANVASS. Shocked. oknazevad (talk) 16:57, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

As Fyunck pointed out above, baseball has a "very active Wikiproject" that prevailed when not balanced by a project-like alert to people who care about style. Similarly, I'm sure the Hockey fans would capitalize everything they care about if there was no input from people who care about style. Among people who care about style, GoodDay is one, and he's on your side; it's not alway one sided. And the mechanism is no more obscure than wikiproject article alerts. And the guidelines you refer to evolved with strong community support over many years. We avoid unnecessary capitalization because most editors want it that way; it makes capitalization mean something. Dicklyon (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: you're like a train picking up speed. Mass page moves will always catch someones attention & there's always the chance of resistance. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I certainly hope that others will see and review any moves I make. But that's not what this section is about. Let me know if you see any moves that don't look right. Dicklyon (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Months ago (or maybe years ago) I advised that there should be limits placed on lower-casing across Wikipedia. Regrettably, my advise wasn't taken. GoodDay (talk) 17:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

But there are limits placed on lowercasing. As noted above, Stanley Cup and Hart Memorial Trophy are good examples of such limits. I've also refrained from lowercasing "All-Star" and "All-Star Game" in the NHL context, because those are pretty consistently capped in sources, unlike the various team permutations (there are also generic versions of them, of course, per all-star game). Dicklyon (talk) 17:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• NHL usage at this page announcing 2022 All-Star teams does not include the phrases "First Team All-Star" or "Second Team All-Star", capped or otherwise, as awards; it only talks about players being selected for the team. With "players voted to the 2021-22 NHL First All-Star Team", "on the First Team front line", "his first berth on the First Team, following his debut on the Second Team", "making their postseason All-Star Team debut", "Voting for the All-Star Team", "list of NHL First and Second All-Star Team rosters", "voted to the First and Second Teams by position", it's pretty clear that their style is to cap all these things. But there's no indication of an official award name, and no indication that these act as proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Ya have to be careful, not to get First All-Star Team & Second All-Star Team, mixed up with the NHL All-Star Game. -- GoodDay (talk) 18:45, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

NHL All-Star Team RM?

Dicklyon, on May 5, 2020 you moved NHL All-Star Team to NHL All-Star team, but I can't find the preceding RM? GoodDay (talk) 18:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Rhys Thomson or Thompson

The article at Rhys Thompson (ice hockey) might have an incorrect spelling of a name as its title. Both statistics databases in the article [38][39] spell the name as "Thomson" with no letter "P". Courtesy pings to @Patken4, Tassedethe, and Kaiser matias:. Currently there is a redirect from Rhys Thomson which prevents a page move. Does anyone find a source with a spelling with a letter "P", or have an objection to a page move? Flibirigit (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

No objection from me. Incoming links mostly use Thomson as well. Tassedethe (talk) 19:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I just checked Total Hockey and it has him as "Thomson", which seems to be the consensus here. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:41, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I think this move requires admin help because of the redirect at Rhys Thomson. Flibirigit (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Made the move to Rhys Thomson and removed the dab page (that I created earlier). Tassedethe (talk)

Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

NHL standings templates nominated for deletion

Just want to inform everyone that some editor nominated NHL standings templates of 2021–22 and 2022–23 seasons for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 October 7#NHL standings templates. – Sabbatino 12:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Adding teams abbreviations to articles

I proposed adding the NHL team abbreviations to their infoboxes (or at least the articles bodies) here. Please state your opinion. Thanks. --Angus (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

USA Hockey

This edit was recently made to USA Hockey. I feel that while it is verifiable, it is not relevant unless something bigger happens. The quote from the politician seems trivial. Any thoughts? Flibirigit (talk) 16:36, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Improvement ideas for an article?

I've written most of this article. I know that there are some holes in the history section but can anyone spot any other mistakes or something to improve? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 19:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

List of NHL current captains & alternate captains

We need some help at List of current NHL captains and alternate captains, as it seems every October, IPs & mobile editors make additions based on who they seen wearing an "A", in a game. GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Anchorage Wolverines

This is showing up in my feed as a new article. I seem to recall an article (or possibly a draft) was previously started before the team officially launched. If that entry was deleted, any evidence of deletion visible to me was obscured by creation of the new article. Are there any admins here who could verify this and recommend whether any content should be merged? I wasn't impressed by what I saw with the new article and feel that it could be a target for deletion itself. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 05:01, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Nothing appears to have been at that article title before now, [40]. Same for the initial draft, [41]. Zaathras (talk) 13:11, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Player statistics in NHL season page

I thought the table at 2022–23 NHL season#Scoring leaders is supposed to show the "top 10" point scorers unless they tie in goals, assists and points (like 2012–13 NHL season#Scoring leaders when Getzlaf and Datsyuk tied in goals, assists and points). However, an editor thinks otherwise and keeps reinstating MacKinnon who has 3 goals and 7 assists (11th player in the table), while Zuccarello has 4 goals and 6 assists (10th player in the table). The aforementioned editor has already been reverted three times (by me – twice, by one other editor – once). In addition, should the note at the top of that section be altered to be clearer, because it does not specify how much players should be listed and what should be done when there is a tie (goals, assists and points)? – Sabbatino 17:29, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Your interpretation of how the tiebreakers are supposed to be applied is correct. A note is probably a good idea as it gives us something to show newer editors if they make an error. Deadman137 (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Quality rating on Porin Ässät (men's ice hockey)

Porin Ässät (men's ice hockey) Currently rated as C-class. Is it worthy of a B? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 09:44, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Edits by Nangears

Nangears (talk · contribs) is running around BLPs and doing things like this (citing WP:NOPIPE) and also removes the | prospect_team = and | prospect_league = parameters from the infobox for two-way players like here (the description of the aforementioned parameters at Template:Infobox ice hockey biography should be changed, because the editor clearly does not understand what they are for). – 08:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Sabbatino 08:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protection required?

For your entertainment. Our monthly mobile editor is back, messing with the NHL infoboxes, again. GoodDay (talk) 01:06, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

No idea what you're referring to. Pls provide examples, or/and use the WP:Vandalism process if appropriate. PKT(alk) 02:15, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Put the 32 NHL teams on your watchlist & you'll see it. GoodDay (talk) 02:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

If you want help, please be specific. Have a good night.........PKT(alk) 02:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Linking players

If a player has a certain name on the top of an article and a different name on the top of the infobox, what name would you use? For example: the player Max Comtois, the article lists him as Max Comtois at the top of the page but on top of the infobox at the side, it lists him as Maxime Comtois. Xolkan (Xolkan) 17:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC) Xolkan (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The name at the top of the infobox should always match the name of the article. Flibirigit (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Xolkan - if you're talking about linking to Max Comtois from another article, then use the article title, because that's he is normally known as. In his particular case, you could use Maxime Comtois because somebody has set that name up to redirect to Max Comtois. I hope this helps .......... PKT(alk) 17:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Xolkan: Articles start with the full name of the subject, while article titles go with the common name. So in the case here, his full name is "Maxime Comtois" but he's known as "Max Comtois". The same can be seen at Wayne Gretzky, for example, which gives his full name ("Wayne Douglas Gretzky"), or Russian players that include their patronymic. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:02, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Template for sports articles lacking sources containing significant coverage

The 2022 NSPORTS RfC added a requirement that all sports articles are required to have a source that contains significant coverage of the topic. To help identify sports articles that lack this I've created Template:No significant coverage (sports); please add it to any such articles that you encounter, and if you are looking for an article to improve the relevant categories may be useful. BilledMammal (talk) 13:01, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Two points. First, the RfC was limited to sports biographies, not "all sports articles." Second, the template has been nominated for deletion. See TfD discussion here. It would be prudent to await the outcome of the TfD before rolling this template out. Cbl62 (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Taffy Abel

Some material was added to Taffy Abel sourced to Smithsonian and NPR regarding his Ojibwe heritage. This information was propagated to History of the National Hockey League, which I reverted given that there is no source that he broke the colour barrier. Can one truly break a colour barrier if it only becomes truly known a century later? I'm curious for options on how handle this issue in general, not only at that one article, but across anything related to it (e.g. Race and ethnicity in the NHL, Larry Kwong, and I'm sure many others). Maxim_(talk) 00:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Mm. My vote is to mention his background in his own article, and not elsewhere. As you say, he can't be said to have "broken" any barrier when his Ojibwe descent was a closely held secret, nor could it be credibly added to the race&ethnicity article, where any mention would have to include speculation and/or original research. (Never mind the high probability that there were other contemporaries of Abel who likewise concealed his ethnicity, and for similar reasons.) Ravenswing 10:35, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd agree. Worth noting in his own article, with mention that it wasn't known at the time, but it's not really relevant in articles with a larger scope as it simply wasn't known at the time. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

This is Taffy Abel's nephew:

Taffy Abel did break the NHL Color Barrier in 1926  see www.TaffyAbel.com There is academic scholarly research to support this. Plus the IOC and US National Archives support this,

There are 2 major reasons starting in 1905 he had to "Pass" as a White

1. To keep being taken out of his home and sent to an infamous Indian Residential Boarding School in the 1905 to 1918 timeframe where their moto was "Kill the Indian -Save the Man"

2. In 1926 when he was recruited into the NHL by Conn Smythe the NHL was clearly racist. The 188 earlier NHL Players were all White Canadiens. 

So - the Racial Passing was a matter of survival. Taffy Abel did disclose in 1939 his Native Heritage after the passing of his Mother

Ref https://drive.google.com/file/d/10V2LL_I0h-HSFUKkHXwWT4nWDtfO4M8S/view?usp=sharing

Ref https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Taffy+Abel%3A+a+sault+sensation%3A+part+Chippewa+and+all+business%2C+hockey...-a0319975273

Ref https://thehockeynews.com/news/how-taffy-abel-made-indigenous-olympic-hockey-history

Ref https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VKmkKs02KzKgl2pPpupTYoN8xZGX1-Zz/view?usp=sharing

Ref

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oetIc6XKqKnbDhAh93c-padLGdKca1ho/view?usp=sharing https://olympics.com/en/news/taffy-abel-first-usa-nhl-ice-hockey-indigenous-abby-roque

Please make appropriate revisions on the Wiki Ice Hockey Project.

Thanks

George

[email protected] 47.201.79.196 (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Best to keep such info limited to Abel's bio. GoodDay (talk) 01:37, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with GoodDay. The name of Native American, Taffy Abel, should be mentioned in all relevant Wikipedia pages ... not just his bio Wikipedia Page.

He's even deleted from this page! Please correct it. Race and ethnicity in the NHL - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NHL

The African American NHL player, Willie O'Ree is mentioned in over 10 Wikipedia pages including these 2 below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_O%27Ree

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_players_in_ice_hockey

So - are some Wiki authors/moderators biased against Native American / First Nation hero like NHL Hockey Players?

Give me a break ... November is Native American Heritage Month in the USA 47.201.79.196 (talk) 15:33, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You're becoming annoying. Furthermore, whether or not you're Abel's nephew, is irrelevant. Again, the info should be limited to Abel's bio page. GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Ravenswing's statement pretty much sums up what we are able to do at this time. Deadman137 (talk) 16:54, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with that rationale, and do believe that content does warrant at least some mention in the race and ethnicity article.

Correct me if I'm misrepresenting the general feeling of those opposed, but I think the issue many people have with Abel's inclusion is that the content about it is framed in a manner where it makes it appear Abel publicly "broke the barrier". Framed in this manner, I would also be opposed to the content's inclusion, as I agree that he did not "break a barrier" (as he was never public of said ethnic identity).

However, I don't believe his privacy about the matter should warrant the content's exclusion from that article, as it can still be repurposed for other uses. Specifically, I feel that content can be included in a wider section that examines the supposed early participation of players with Indigenous backgrounds in the league (from Non-Status Indians, those that choose to hide/white pass, and those that self-claim). As was alluded to, there were a few players that claimed Indigenous status, and I do believe this should be brought up in the race and ethnicity article in some form or another. While I understand the argument that Wikipedia should not list these players in the actual list itself for veracity purposes, I do think this wider phenomenon of undocumented Indigenous players should be brought up in the article. Leventio (talk) 18:56, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

A "wider phenomenon" would presuppose hard evidence that there was one. We don't know there was for a certain fact, and the article's no place for our speculation. For my part, I expect that where there was one Taffy Abel, there were numerous other players who could claim First Nations ancestry -- and probably those who knew about it but suppressed it, given Canada's deplorable insistence in that era on complete assimilation. But WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS applies here as well, and these articles are not proper venues for advocacy. Ravenswing 21:29, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Wider phenomenon may have been a strong word (and I do agree that there isn't any substantial evidence to indicate that such a phenomenon exists).

However, I still see value in adding content that briefly goes over the instances of undocumented/non-Native status players that we know of, as well as describe their individual situtations regarding race. While there are certainly "numerous other players" can also claim Indigenous status, I do not think that should be a point to warrant their exclusion from said article simply for the fear that it "unleashes the floodgates". So long as we continue to maintain the same consistent standards of requiring sourcing to back up said claims, I fail to see why these players should be excluded from the race article, regardless if they chose to hide their identities or not (which, perhaps I'm missing something, but afaik, the Abel soures seems legitimate). Leventio (talk) 04:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

And I fail to see why they should be included. Wikipedia still isn't a directory, even of hockey players who might be able to claim First Nations ancestry. There is enough material in those articles without attempting to shoehorn in individuals who neither had a material impact on the issues at question, nor whose racially-based inclusion/exclusion are not extensively covered in reliable sources ... the Herb Carnegies of the world, for example. Ravenswing 15:38, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Directoryism would be asking to have every claimant listed there. That is not what I'm proposing at all (as I alluded to with credible sourcing, I wasn't proposing we list every claimant). The only thing I proposed is taking what is credibly sourced (i.e. Abel is the first indigenous player to play in the league, albeit while hiding his identity) into the article. And with that said, I do not see how stating that Abel was the first indigenous player to play in the league (albeit hidden) amounts to shoehorning when nearly the entirity of that article's written content (i.e. not the list itself) amounts to a very simplistic summary of "racial firsts".

In saying all this, I'm not arguing the impact/barriers other players mentioned in the article have had to face given the publicity of their ethnicity, and had the article been centred around that, I would agree Abel should be excluded based off his lack of impact on that issue. However that is not how the written content in that article is currently constructed. As the written content stands now, there is nothing on the impact of race in the NHL/the historical discourse surrounding it. What exists in that article is a simplistic summation of racial firsts, and in that respect, I fail to see how Abel would be a shoehorn when he has a legitimate reason to be included in the written proses as currently constructed (as a first, albeit with an asterix).

With regards to sourcing for Abel, I can honestly say I haven't really dived into that and only look at 47.201.79.196's citations (again, I'm not sure if there is a sourcing issue with those as stated earlier, although I thought they looked legitimate, but if there is... nevermind about all this?) Leventio (talk) 16:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Drat, a little late on this, but one objection is plain: almost no one knew a year ago that Abel was, indeed, the first player with indigenous blood to play in the NHL. And no one knows that for a fact now. Where Abel concealed his background so thoroughly that no one was aware of his heritage until long after his playing career, who's to say others didn't do the same? Ravenswing 02:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The illogical noise that Ravenswing supports goes like this:

Taffy Abel did not say the day Wikipedia started he was Indigenous ... so he isn't Indigenous!

Taffy Abel did not say the day the Internet started he was Indigenous ... so he isn't Indigenous!

Taffy Abel did not email the day email started he was Indigenous ... so he isn't Indigenous!bel

Taffy Abel did not Tweet me the day Twitter started he was Indigenous ... so he isn't Indigenous!

Taffy Abel did not wear an Indian headdress and carry a tomahawk the day Conn Smythe recruited him to the NHL ... so he isn't Indigenous!

All this from Ravenswing despite providing evidence that Taffy Abel was an Indigenous Chippewa as shown in the Durant Rolls.

All this from Ravenswing despite detailing the egregious racism in the early NHL of not accepting Indian nor Black hockey players.

All this from Ravenswing despite detailing the necessity of Taffy Abel to use "Racial Passing" It's much like "Religious Passing" for Jews in WWII to escape Hitler and death. They had 3 choices: Run - Hide (Ann Frank) - Pass as a Christain. Taffy Abel (talk) 17:44, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Will you please drop the stick, now. Furthermore, if you are Abel's nephew? then you might be in breach of WP:COI. -- GoodDay (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah, we're not much for incoherent rants here. No doubt there's some forum or blogsite better suited than Wikipedia for it. Ravenswing 04:40, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
• Hah. Quote from an Associated Press article on the subject that posted this past hour: "There are no detailed demographical records from the NHL’s earliest years, the league and historians say. Because of that — and because some players hid or downplayed their own Indigenous or Asian heritage to avoid racist treatment — defining the sport’s trailblazers and who broke the so-called color barrier in the NHL is difficult at best and likely impossible to prove."

  With that being said, the article also states [42] that Abel's nephew George Jones has been aggressively pushing his uncle's case with the league and anywhere else he can reach, and declines to believe evidence that anyone else might have beaten him to it. We may have been dealing with Abel's nephew after all. Ravenswing 23:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Boston Bruins

What's the story on the Bruins alternate captains? Their official website list only Marchand & Krejci. Yet many ips are including McAvoy & Pastrnak. GoodDay (talk) 00:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

When Krejci left last year, the 2nd "A" alternated among Pasta, Mcavoy and Brandon Carlo. Now that K is back, I believe they are done with that. Zaathras (talk) 01:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Krejci has been consistently wearing the "A." Ravenswing 23:17, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing Pastrnak & McAvoy wore the letters, when one or two of the regular letter wearings were out of the lineup & that's what some of the newbie editors seen. GoodDay (talk) 23:20, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Very likely. Marchand not only missed some time recovering from his surgery, but Boston's avoiding playing him in back-to-back games. Krejci's missed a few games himself. Ravenswing 02:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

NHL volunteer shots from Discord members

I'm very active in the r/hockey Discord community, and after seeing the idea passed around for Jason Robertson (ice hockey) (which hasn't come to fruition yet), I have asked around for volunteers who are willing to take pictures of NHLers and let me upload them for them. I have secured one, but I want to make sure I know how to proceed with this, let alone if it's even kosher. Is Wikipedia allowed to accept self-taken images at games from other users? Say I'm from the Pittsburgh market, but I have a volunteer who would like to submit shots from PNC Arena in Carolina, for example. dannymusiceditor ^oops 03:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

As you may already know, photos used on Wikipedia must be either released under a licence compatible with Wikipedia, or released into the public domain. (There are some circumstances where a photo could be used in spite of not being released under an appropriate licence, but this doesn't apply to living NHL players.) See Wikipedia:Image use policy#Copyright and licensing for detailed info and Wikipedia:How to upload a photo for an overview. This is easiest to establish by the owner of the photo's copyright, which means the person who took the photo. If the photographer already uploads photos to a public website, then as suggested at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials#Granting us permission to copy material already online, they can publish licensing terms for the photo, releasing it under Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License (CC-BY-SA) and the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) (unversioned, with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts), or releasing it into the public domain. The page also provides a couple of options for sending a release via email.

I appreciate the overhead might be discouraging. It's done in order to facilitate anyone distributing complete articles (that is, including embedded media) for any purpose. isaacl (talk) 04:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

But Isaacl's disclaimer being given, hell yeah we'd be happy to have decent images from volunteers. The lack of photos is an ongoing problem, the more so in that it seems that every year the busybodies decide to make the policies evermore restrictive, and a disproportionate number of player pictures are candid shots from alumni games and suchlike. Ravenswing 04:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

So, in short, there is no way for me to upload this myself, legally? Or which license do I choose here? The user themselves gave me permission via direct message and a name to credit to, but I've never done it before. Just was aware that in theory it was possible. dannymusiceditor ^oops 06:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

As I mentioned, see Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials#Granting us permission to copy material already online for ways to send in a release by email, including an interactive form to help generate it. Please ensure the photographer understands that their photo can get re-used by anyone for any purpose they want, as per CC-BY-SA and GFDL. isaacl (talk) 06:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Owen Beck (ice hockey)

Should Owen Beck (ice hockey) be nominated for WP:AFD? I placed a WP:PROD tag on this page, but an editor just came and added a bunch of references despite the player failing WP:GNG and WP:NHOCKEY. – Sabbatino 09:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

• The Gazette article is a good reference, but everything else falls under primary sources, blogs, casual mentions or routine sports reporting. Ravenswing 20:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Template:Infobox ice hockey biography documentation

The documentation of Template:Infobox ice hockey biography needs an update regarding the |league=, |team=, |prospect_team= and |prospect_league= parameters. First of all, a player must be signed by his draft team in order to use the |prospect_team= and |prospect_league= parameters (until then we use |draft_team=). Secondly, it is currently implied that these two parameters are only used "for players who have been drafted, but have yet to play a game" when it is the opposite (see previous sentence). These two parameters are used when a player:

• is on an entry-level contract and is assigned to a lower league (for example, NHL→AHL);
• is on a two-way contract (for example, NHL→AHL);
• is coming back from an injury (for example, Mackenzie Blackwood was recently assigned to Utica);
• is playing in other league on loan (for example, signed by NHL but is loaned to a European league).

I thought about making an update myself, but could not decide on the best wording. Help is appreciated. – Sabbatino 19:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I have made changes to template's documentation based on these points since nobody made any suggestions regarding it. – Sabbatino 10:52, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Shock at the Rock

I thought we do not create pages for individual games like Draft:Shock at the Rock? – Sabbatino 12:38, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see how that is notable enough for an article. I think it would worth working this into the 2008–09 Carolina Hurricanes season page. JamesTeterenko (talk) 15:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Games like the Easter Epic and Monday Night Miracle beg to differ Sabbatino. The Cadillac Ranger (talk) 18:18, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with JamesTeterenko - this game isn't especially notable. IMO it fits better as a sentence or two in the articles for each team. PKT(alk) 13:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

PKT I made mentions of Shock at the Rock in the Eric Staal, Carolina Hurricanes, and 2008–09 Carolina Hurricanes season. The Cadillac Ranger (talk) 18:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

+1. Heck, I doubt it even is worth working into the team's season page. Teams come back from a couple goals down late a few times a season. That a sportswriter on deadline slapped a hyped-up nickname on this particular game is par for the course. The Easter Epic, by contrast, is one of the most notable games in the history of the Stanley Cup, setting multiple records. (With that being said, I thank Cadillac Ranger for pointing out the pretty dern NON-notable -- and extremely poorly sourced -- "Monday Night Miracle." I redirected it.) Ravenswing 15:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

League Leaders being sortable tables

Because the league leaders for the top 10 points and GAA, are sortable, if you do a sort among any other stat, the data is no longer accurate. It might be accurate within the top 10 point leaders, but not for the NHL in general.

Because of this inaccuracy, I believe that the sortable tables for the scoring and goalies should be removed, since it does not reflect the correct NHL leaders in that category (only points and GAA will be correct, because that is what they are using to generate the initial Top 10).

In this case, I think being accurate is much more important than having them sortable, unless the descriptions are changed to say that sorting the tables only sort the current top 10 leaders in points or GAA, not within the entire league.

For example, there are players not listed in the top 10 of goals scored because they aren't in the top 10 point leaders. If one sorts by goals scored, where is Bo Horvat's 26 goals? How about Alex Ovechkin and Mark Scheifele 23 goals? Just because they don't make the top 10 in points scored, they should be omitted? posty (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I feel readers are aware that sorting a table based on one of the columns will only provide a sorted order of the players in the table. isaacl (talk) 21:10, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with isaacl. The description already reads "The following players led the league in regular season points". (emphasis mine) Further, the chart has a darker background on the points column, much like the goalie chart which defaults to goals against average below it, which should make it additionally apparent what the purpose of the chart is. Scoring leaders have long been defined by point totals, and their other stats traditionally listed with them. I don't think there is any appetite to create additional goal leaders, and point leaders, and certainly no appetite to create a chart including the entire league. Echoedmyron (talk) 21:53, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not saying to create new leaderboards, it is just very misleading if you sort on goals and it doesn’t list the top 10 goal scorers correctly. So because of that, the data is incorrect and does not match the leaders at NHL.com. By removing the sortable on all columns, these inaccuracies are avoided.

Yes there is an award to the leading point scorer but there is also an award for most goals scored. Being accurate in all data is more important then having a sortable table that sorts the numbers only based on the top 10 point leaders (or GAA). posty (talk) 01:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

But wikipedia is not for regurgitating all data, surely. The citation used for the charts will take you to NHL.com where you can find stats beyond the ten entries. The article on WP provides the top ten point scorers, and allows for sorting within them. Echoedmyron (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, with isaacl here. My take is that the average hockey fan is not dumb, does not need their hands held, and can figure out for themselves that sorting the columns in a table will provide a sorted order of the cells in the table. I don't see the upside to removing ALL information just to immunize those that are that dumb from being "misled." Someone who wants to see a more expanded table can go to the many sites hosting such tables (including hockey-reference.com, which lists ALL skaters and is sortable in many categories), abd blessings be upon them. Ravenswing 04:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what it is you're asking for. Points are the sum total of goals/assists. GoodDay (talk) 01:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)