Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 April 6
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. This AfD has been disfigured by sock-puppetry; the sockpuppets' voices are not the only ones for keep, but after discarding them, the balance of consensus is that notability has not been established. JohnCD (talk) 21:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Andrew Helm[edit]
- Andrew Helm (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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This is a non-notable script coordinator whose dabbling in writing and production also fails to meet notability standards. Every source given in the article fails one notability policy or another. There are instances of WP:CIRCULAR, with assertions that simply loop back to other WP articles. There is a lot of WP:ELPEREN, including IMDB, which is not WP:RS. There is a lot of WP:PRIMARY stuff, which in itself is not enough to establish notability, since Wikipedia requires secondary sourcing. There are dead links and unsourced sections. There are even absurd additions, like the fact that a fire once came near his house, which obviously does not make him notable. Good faith efforts have been made to add sourcing, but none of these efforts has resulted in acceptable sourcing. Assertions of notability will probably be made during this AfD as well, but they will consist of nothing more than the WP:PRIMARY and WP:ELPEREN and WP:CIRCULAR that we have already seen. The article fails to meet the basic requirements of WP:42: “Articles require significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.” Qworty (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC) Qworty (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Keep I disagree. He's won awards in writing, and has been involved in lots of important material. There is one dead link. There is substantial trustworthiness and continuity between the sources. User Qworty has been at this article for months, whittling it down and eliminating sources. Then QED he wants it deleted because it is unsourced. The importance of this writer of stories, television, video games and movies makes him notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. User:7&6=thirteen 18:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- You haven't named one policy. Show us some sources that meet Wikipedia policies for notability. Give us the source and give us the policy. You can't do that, because the WP:42 doesn't exist for this article. It's one thing to make assertions. It's another thing to offer up specific evidence. Qworty (talk) 18:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Au contraire, mon ami WP:42 is not policy. Assertions were not fabricated. Taram (talk)- The article contains evidence of significant coverage. Res ipsa loquitur. You have not met the merits of his notability. Its not your decision. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:06, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- You haven't named one policy. Show us some sources that meet Wikipedia policies for notability. Give us the source and give us the policy. You can't do that, because the WP:42 doesn't exist for this article. It's one thing to make assertions. It's another thing to offer up specific evidence. Qworty (talk) 18:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Keep I disagree. He's won awards in writing, and has been involved in lots of important material. There is one dead link. There is substantial trustworthiness and continuity between the sources. User Qworty has been at this article for months, whittling it down and eliminating sources. Then QED he wants it deleted because it is unsourced. The importance of this writer of stories, television, video games and movies makes him notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. User:7&6=thirteen 18:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I put it into the article, and you take it out, and then say there is 'nothing in the article.' Chutzpah. Self fulfilling prophecy. Also, violation of WP:3RR, and you were warned. This is not unlike the admonishment you received on your talk page from Jimbo Wales.[1] You don't own the article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- That is your argument for notability? A message from Jimbo from two and a half years ago on an unrelated topic? Please, let's get back on course here. What, if any, are your notability arguments for the article under consideration here? Qworty (talk) 20:05, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The author was reminding you to demonstrate manners in communicating your ideas. This dispute asks "What is to be done next? What is to be learned from this?"(WP:DR) The message from Jimbo points you in your direction, Qworty. Taram (talk)- It's already there, unless you deleted it again. But its not your article, and its not mine. There is plenty in the article, for those who choose to read it with an open mind. A seven month effort by you may mean that you are closed on the issue and invested in a result. But its not for either of us to decide. We are each but one voice. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is not a WP:VOTE, and the outcome has nothing to do with the number of voices. Policy is supposed to decide AfDs. And so far, you haven't given us one single example of a source that can be used per policy to establish notability. This is your chance. Give us one. Qworty (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Haha, I have to chime in here. Qworty's position is that this Andrew Helm bloke isn't notable, citing Wikipedia's guidelines. 7&6=thirteen meanwhile takes the position, regarding the notability of Andrew Helm, that Qworty is a bad Wikipedian. I mean that may be the case but discrediting Qworty doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand. Maybe he's guilty of removing your stuff too many times, but only I suppose, if there's any notability to begin with. I've already made my position clear, everything I've seen in any revision of this page - the sources and the text itself - tells me this guy really doesn't pass the guidelines, most clearly stated in WP:42. It also has other issues - even heavily edited as it appears now, to me it still raises questions concerning WP:NPOV. Hst20 (talk) 00:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is not a WP:VOTE, and the outcome has nothing to do with the number of voices. Policy is supposed to decide AfDs. And so far, you haven't given us one single example of a source that can be used per policy to establish notability. This is your chance. Give us one. Qworty (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's already there, unless you deleted it again. But its not your article, and its not mine. There is plenty in the article, for those who choose to read it with an open mind. A seven month effort by you may mean that you are closed on the issue and invested in a result. But its not for either of us to decide. We are each but one voice. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete There is a patina of notability there, but mostly the references given are non-reliable, or circular, or irrelevant to the subject or his notability. Wikipedia articles are used as references as well... Looks to me this is a case of WP:BOMBARD, and when that happens it's usually because the topic is not notable. After some research (because the sources there obviously cannot be trusted), I don't believe this person meets WP:AUTHOR, WP:CREATIVE or WP:GNG for that matter. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 21:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete This article relies almost entirely on primary sources, and the rest of the sources fail to meet wikipedia's standard. I searched for anything that might back up notability, but all I could find was more self published, and primary sources. I did find a few interviews, but those were interviews done at conventions and were not published by reliable sources so those fail as well. Fails WP:GNG, WP:AUTHOR, WP:CREATIVE. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone brings reliable sources to the table, but as of yet I haven't seen any.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Keep Determining the fine line between "notable" and not notable in this case is best suggested by the quote by Stuart Chase: “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” For those who run in the realm of Stage Combat, Horror Films, Independent films, and the history of Webisodic presentations, Andrew Helm is not only notable, but distinguished. For those of you who do not, there is not much that can convince you that this individual, though quite prolific is "notable," though perhaps a better word is "noteworthy." As connoisseurs of network matters, some of you may be old enough to remember the beginning of webisodes on the Internet. If so, perhaps you will remember how short and clunky the early productions were in addition to how difficult they were to watch. That was because we all had something called "dial-up." Back then, did you ever ask yourself where the ideas for stories came from? It came from people who were writers, but were not fixated on the writing structure for film and television. That would not work on the Internet. Andrew Helm led the way in writing writing internet-based, fantasy-combat, webisodes (for those old enough to recall, like now, there were different genres of webisodes even as far back in the late 1990s). If it was only for his work in early webisodes, Andrew Helm is noteworthy. Like all humans, he had a past and a future. His past and future revolved around writing...like many of you who have already commented here. He worked in what used to be called independent television, moved into mainline television, and then started writing feature films. The ReelzChannel plays his film Death Racers constantly. (That is the Insane Clown Posse film.) By my count it appeared on ReelzChannel fourteen times between April and December of 2012. It pays the bills so Helm can explore other ventures. Anybody who writes at Wikipedia but thinks that publishing a story in an anthology and then receiving a nomination for the Bram Stoker Award for Superior Achievement in Anthology is not noteworthy, especially in light of Helm's other accomplishments and history, is either jealous or should never consider him or herself a writer again. Getting even a nomination for a writing award is no small achievement. There are thousands of writers in America and that nomination could have gone to any one of those people. So, whether one is made nervous by strong female characters in shows like Queen of Swords or Mutant X (as one poster here has indicated at the another talk page that s/he also nominated for deletion this week) or not, when one looks at his entire career Andrew Helm is a very noteworthy person to be included in Wikipedia. By the way, If you did not know who Stuart Chase before clicking on the link, that is okay, you just didn't travel in his circle of specialty, as might also be said for the arena in which Andrew Helm operates. TaramTaram (talk) 04:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)- A lot of words, but not a single policy argument for notability. In fact, no one has made such an argument thus far. The only thing you're saying here is WP:ILIKEIT. That is a wholly inadequate argument to make. Qworty (talk) 04:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Qworty, I am sorry there are too many words for you to consider in my opinion; however, I choose not to insult you nor will I argue with you. When you chose to claim that this conversation is a battle not a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Andrew_Helm, it was apparent that nothing anybody would say in this matter could sway you. Taram (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Comment Taram, a TL;DR type post doesn't count for much, because we look for wikipedia policy when we do AFD's rather than observe which arguments had the most megabytes of data, and in your post you didn't actually quote any real policy. Actually here on wikipedia we use a different criteria for notability, and we actually didn't consult Stuart Chase to come up with it. Determining the fine line between "notable" and not notable in this case is best suggested by our general notability guidelines which you don't have to have any amount of faith in, you just need reliable sources.Coffeepusher (talk) 04:26, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
The editors argue policy, Coffeepusher. I am merely a witness and a contributor. I told you the facts as I know them in my statement above and I gave my opinion. The references are in the article. I will not insult you and I will stay in conversation. I understand that dyslexia is a pain.TaramTaram (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)- Comment well this is a page for discussing policy, do you have any reliable sources to add to the artcile along with your opinion? As of right now that is what most of the editors require to change their opinions.Coffeepusher (talk) 05:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- A lot of words, but not a single policy argument for notability. In fact, no one has made such an argument thus far. The only thing you're saying here is WP:ILIKEIT. That is a wholly inadequate argument to make. Qworty (talk) 04:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Roberta Brown credits". TV.com. April 7, 2013. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:20, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- "The Hunted". TV.com. Retrieved 7 April 2013.
- >"Andrew Helm". Celebrity Networth. Retrieved April 7, 2013. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Amityville the Legacy 3d". bloody-disgusting.com. Retrieved April 7, 2013. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Best in the West Announces 1999 Winners". Best in the West Screenwriters. 1999. Retrieved April 7, 2013. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Amityville the Legacy 3d". bloody-disgusting.com. Retrieved April 7, 2013. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, only one of those could even come close to classifying as a reliable source, and that is the best of the west winners...which from what I can tell isn't a notable award, or better stated I can't find a single thing about that award. The others are credits for work he has done which doesn't qualify for WP:42.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:17, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Question WHat would make a "notable" writing award for you Coffeepusher? Since most awards are not listed online, I will need to find, get out, and look through my Dramatists Guild of America 2013 handbook to check it out, but I don't want to take the time to do that unless that would make the award a notable one in your opinion, Coffeepusher. Thanks! TaramTaram (talk) 02:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)- Answer you are welcome to tell us about the award,
but honestly awards aren't counted in the notability guidelines unless they generate a significant amount of secondary source literature.See WP:FILMMAKER and WP:NACTOR and you will notice that awards don't come into the criteria, but they are assumed because significant awards will generate secondary reliable sources.Coffeepusher (talk) 04:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC) - Answer whoops, I just checked out WP:ANYBIO and it states "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." So I guess if you want to make the case that it is a "well known and significant award" then I am willing to listen.Coffeepusher (talk) 04:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Suggestion Don't forget to check Writer's Market 2013 (or another year). It publishes information on writing contests, also. SNCKnightSNCKnight (talk) 19:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Best of the West Info So, here is what I found after hearing from Frederick Mensch of "MovieBytes - Screenwriting Contests & Markets Online" (and digging a little further):- "The Best of the West" awards are given by by True West Magazine and True West Publishing.
- True West Magazine has been around since 1953
- The current executive editor of True West Magazine is Bob Boze Bell. It has been many years since I have seen the History Channel, but I remember seeing Bob Boze Bell on documentaries about the west, including those about Billy the Kid. I believe there is a Western Channel (or something like that) and he appeared on documentaries for that channel,too. So, I think that in western terms, at least, he is fairly well known (but of course, I can be proven wrong). By extension, one might assume that his magazine is of national sigificance.
- In terms of determining if True West is a national magazine, I found the following awards and mentions for True West Magazine which sponsors The Best of the West awards:
- 1) In 2008, the Western Writers of America awarded True West the Lariat Award for outstanding support of the organization and its members.
- 2) In June 2010, True West appeared in Fern Siegel's Magazine Rack in Media Post who wrote "The Empire State Building is my true north—as it is for anyone who lives in downtown Manhattan... For those seeking fun authentic experience without actual contact, try True West, Siegel wrote. He added, "Today, the popular history pub hopes to capture the spirit of the West with authenticity, personality and humor, linking its past to its present. In the immortal words of Seinfeld's Kramer: 'Giddy-up.'"
- 3) The Oregon-California Trails Association awarded True West the Distinguished Service Award in August 2010 in recognition of consistently publishing travel articles on the National Historic Trails.
- 4) On January 23, 2011, Bob Drogin, in the Los Angeles Times, mentioned that True West Magazine "celebrates the Old West." The article was repeated in the Washington Post on February 6, 2011. I would assume that since a mention in the LA Times is needed for a reference to establish one's stature, that comment by Drogin would work for that purpose; but, what do I know.
- "The Best in the West Screenwriting Competition" (which celebrated writing about both the OLD WEST and NEW WEST) morphed into a general award for works already produced and as such changed the name to "The Best of the West." Frederick Mensch told me that the screenwriting competition was dropped in 2007.
So this is what I have found so far. I do not know if you would like to view True West magazine as a national publication or not. If you do, it seems that the screenwriting award would have been linked to a national publication which would have made it a significant award or honor among lovers of western lore.Just FYI. Sorry it is so many words, I don't have time to check in frequently to keep adding a little here and there, so I tried to give you what I have so far, all at once. TaramTaram (talk) 05:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)- So what? He didn't even win. Qworty (talk) 05:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Check the preceding conversation first , then remember to use the WP:Civility policy please, Qwortysir (or ma'am). Thank you. This appears to have been a very complete reply to a question asked by .Coffeepusher. SNCKnight (talk) 15:31, 9 April 2013 (UTC)- Frankly, I fail to see the significance of the award itself if Helm himself didn't even win it. What is the purpose of discussing the notability of an award that the man did not win? This makes no sense at all. Qworty (talk) 18:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
That's it Qworty! That would have been an appropriate question to ask of Coffeepusher rather than brushing off Taram's efforts in locating information about the writing contest as it had been asked about. You could have asked if Coffeepusher thought that coming in as first-place runner up (a level distinguished from 2nd and 3rd by many writing contests) was an honor even though the first place award was not achieved. The reply "so what" means "it is of no importance" according to Cambridge Dictionaries Online. In this case, the "it" appears to have been Taram's research into the matter. When you used that pharse, you blatently dismissed another editor's hard work which violates WP:Civility policy ("Incivility consists of one or more of the following behaviours, especially when done in an aggressive manner: personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments.") SNCKnight (talk)
- Comment I appreciate the effort on exploring the significance of that award. As you can see, I haven't struck through my vote for two reasons. The main reason is that I am not convinced that getting a "first place runner up" on this award qualifies as receiving a well known and significant award. The second reason is that most of the evidence presented concerned the magazine rather than the award itself, so I am not convinced that the award is well known or significant, even if the magazine itself is. But that is my opinion.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Oh Mr.Coffeepusher, thank you for your appreciation. I do so really wish you would have said that you thought that being the second winner was not worth considering before I did all that work, though. (Just FYI for your future reference and consideration: In writing contests, there are usually two first place winners. There is the person who gets the pot and the person whose work is also well appreciated. That second person is the runner-up. Then there is a second and third place. So many people want to pretend that they are writers, that one can easily get 100 entrants or more when one announces a contest, so 3rd place is nothing to laugh at. I would think that in a contest run by a legendary magazine, they would have gotten quite a few entries for the winners to beat out.) Taram (talk)Comment I do want to comment on your second point, Mr.Coffeepusher, in which you wrote: "most of the evidence presented concerned the magazine rather than the award itself." As far as I am concerned,an award or honor is only worth something based on who makes the award. For example, the Nobel Peace Prize is significant because it is funded by the bulk of the estate of the man who invented dynamite. The medal of honor is valued by Americans, but not by the enemy nations against whom soldiers were fighting to win the medal. Barnstars mean something to people who are on Wikipedia alot, but they won't get you anywhere when you apply for a job. (I hope you get my drift.) So, to determine if the best in the west writing award was worth the paper it is written on because it came from a significant group, that is the information I sought. I think that winning a prize from a legendary and well established magazine, like True West is an honor.Taram (talk)- Comment Two things, first "Coffeepusher" isn't gendered, so "Mr." is inappropriate until I specify otherwise, I'm sure you understand the conventions. Secondly the specifications are for a well known award, not an award from a well known publication, so getting first, second, or illustrious potentate of this award doesn't qualify for notability until it is proven that the award is well known, and in this case it doesn't appear to be, there isn't even a wikipedia page for it.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Answer you are welcome to tell us about the award,
- Comment Looking at the Andrew Helm page I see that Taram was the one who originally created it, and one of his arguments now against deletion is that "Andrew Helm is a very noteworthy person" regardless of wheather strong female characters makes a person nervous or not? It's just nonsense. The rest is anecdotal and unsourced, and regardless of which the page just doesn't meet the guidelines from what I can tell. I understand that you created the page and doesn't want to see it go, Taram, but I just can't find how this guy is notable in the Wikipedia sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hst20 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Reply As per above, and a hoho to you,too, Hst! Regarding the comment "...I see that Taram was the one who originally created it, and one of his arguments now against deletion is that "Andrew Helm is a very noteworthy person regardless of wheather (should be whether) strong female characters makes a person nervous or not? It's just nonsense." I am sorry that my comment created some confusion about what I wrote Hst, but thank you for reading it. The sentence referred to some comments made earlier regarding other endeavors. As per your opinion, I appreciate reading it, but I still beg to differ and respectfully disagree. The citations in the article are complete and indicate that Helm has made a significant contribution to the world of entertainment, including multimedia. If his only contribution was that of fathering the writing of webisodes, it alone would signify his notable-ness to receive an entry in Wikipedia. Thank you again for your comment, though. TaramTaram (talk) 02:15, 8 April 2013 (UTC)Reply You mean as in WP:Civility, right? SNCKNightSNCKnight (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)- Reply Yeah, was a bit confusing but cheers. But lets's stick to the point. The first source for the subject points to a seemingly home-made site; a place called meat-insomnia.com, and it goes on from there. Reference #5 points to a members.tripod-page that's about 13 years old - I didn't know those still existed. The sources are poor is what I'm saying, see WP:IRS, though as you say there are a lot of them but it just looks like a case of WP:BOMBARD. And I don't quite understand your reasoning, why would creating webisodes make a person notable, as per WP:NOTABILITY? Hst20 (talk) 00:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Reply-to-the-reply Sorry to chime into your discussion Hst20 and Taram, but it seems to me that the reason one would be notable for developing the method of writing and formatting fantasy combat based webisodes (still used today) is found in WP:CREATIVE: 3.The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique. Andrew Helm created a technique. Wordsword1 (talk)Quetsion for Hst Thank your Wordsword1 for your input, too. Hst, I am curious as to what you thought about Wordsword1's comment regarding the notability to be found in WP:CREATIVE and the development of the technique of writing for combat fantasy webisodes for which Helm was recognized according to the webpage? Taram (talk) 23:27, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Reply Yeah, was a bit confusing but cheers. But lets's stick to the point. The first source for the subject points to a seemingly home-made site; a place called meat-insomnia.com, and it goes on from there. Reference #5 points to a members.tripod-page that's about 13 years old - I didn't know those still existed. The sources are poor is what I'm saying, see WP:IRS, though as you say there are a lot of them but it just looks like a case of WP:BOMBARD. And I don't quite understand your reasoning, why would creating webisodes make a person notable, as per WP:NOTABILITY? Hst20 (talk) 00:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- >"Andrew Helm". Celebrity Networth. Retrieved April 7, 2013. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Keep Article is a mess and uses sources poorly and it does seem like an autobiography. But in light of his credits I can see on imdb and some coverage I think he does meet guidelines. Article just needs a radical overhaul.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Just an FYI WP:ELPEREN is not a policy. It only supplements WP:EL. Wordsword1 (talk)
- Delete What settles it for me is WP:ELPEREN. I'm not a frequent editor on here but I came across the Andrew Helm page a couple of years ago, looking like an autobiography and a resumé. I flagged it for notability and someone scaled it down significantly afterwards, but last month I came across it again looking much like it did when I first saw it. That might not measure into it, I don't know, but regardless I can't find enough to meet the criteria in WP:NOTABILITY Hst20 (talk) 18:58, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete — The sources are poor, and my searches didn't produce anything better. There's no substantial coverage of this subject by reliable sources. Credits alone, like liner notes, aren't enough to hew together a truly encyclopedic biography. In this case, fairly unreliable sources give more coverage, and the WP:BLPSPS and WP:SPS represent the most coverage, including anything that could add to meeting WP:ANYBIO. JFHJr (㊟) 19:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is an old link if it works to a 2000 interview. http://thequeenofswords.tripod.com/Andrewhelm.htm REVUpminster (talk) 09:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. The arguments about poor quality, looks like an autobiography etc. are irrelevant. If the guy is notable, the text can be fixed. But I do not see evidence of notability in the sense of reliable independent sources that discuss the subject. According to IMDB he wrote for a number of minor movies and TV shows, but IMDB is not a great source and anyway gives no biographical information. Discarding his linkedin page and various blogs, there is nothing but a short bio from the publisher of a collection of short stories that included one that he wrote. Publishers ask their authors to supply bios, but is just a list of work he has done. Again, no discussion of the subject. With all the effort that has obviously been put into digging up sources that mention the subject, if this is all that can be found he is not notable. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete - The sources in the article are beyond poor. The sourcing offered up in this AFD is not any improvement, and I can find no coverage to establish inclusion in Wikipedia. -- Whpq (talk) 14:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
- Week keep' - Borderline in some respects, but I generally agree with Dr. Blofeld, there's enough there to squeak by the notability requirements. Editors interested in the article ought to do some work on it, though. Nonetheless, keep. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Care to be specific about any sources that you feel fulfill WP:RS? The keep votes in this discussion are all rather vague, or reference things such as IMDB, which per policy are not WP:RS. Qworty (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Clarify, please, Qworty As you wrote so boldly above, "This is not a WP:VOTE, and the outcome has nothing to do with the number of voices." So, it would be much appreciated if you would reword your question to Beyond My Ken. SNCKnight (talk) 23:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)- Comment - There is nothing to reword. The question is very clear. reliable sources are needed to establish notability. A vague handwave saying there seems to be enough sources fails to address our notability guidelines. -- Whpq (talk) 03:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
On ne vote pas ici. We do not vote here. See WP:VOTE("Remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy; even when polls appear to be "votes," most decisions on Wikipedia are made on the basis on consensus, not on vote-counting or majority rule.") SNCKnight (talk) 04:43, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Care to be specific about any sources that you feel fulfill WP:RS? The keep votes in this discussion are all rather vague, or reference things such as IMDB, which per policy are not WP:RS. Qworty (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. The article needs work and I hope everyone understands that including people with possible conflict of interest. The language is unencyclopedic, however the list of valid citations is substantial. Please improve it if you can. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 09:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Question that is actually the main point of contention. My count on the list is that not a single one of the 32 references actually qualifies WP:42, Could you please identify which sources you think satisfies as a valid source?Coffeepusher (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - Those advocating keep have not responded to identify which sources they are relying on to establish notability. I suspect the reason is because the answer is "none". Below is an analysis of the sources in the article as of this version:
- Primary source, and not significant coverage
- Not independent as he is a contributor
- Not a reliable source, and not significant coverage as the site just catalogs people's salaries
- Linkedin is not a reliable source
- Somebody's tripod page is not a reliable source
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- A directory listing is not sigificant coverage and in any case, Helm isn't even mentioned in the source
- Helm is not mentioned in the source
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- TV.com is not a reliable source
- Primary source, and not significant coverage
- Blogs are not a reliable source
- TV.com is not a reliable source
- Primary source, and no mention of Helm
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- Primary source, and not significant coverage
- Passing mention, not significant coverage
- No mention of Helm
- Directory entry, not significant coverage
- Confirms he was nominated for the award but is not significant coverage
- Primary source, and not significant coverage
- Quoted in a story about wilfires in LA, not significant coverage, not related to notability, and no evidence it is the same Andrew Helm
- Dead link but viewing in Archive.org shows it is just a directory entry and not significant coverage
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- IMDB is not a reliable source
- Not an independent source as he is an author
- Minor mention in Ain't It Cool News, not significant coverage
- Not independent source
- Blogs are not a reliable source
-- Whpq (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Keep "He's not notable" "Yes he is" "Prove it" "He won awards (List of Awards)" "Those don't count." "Why not." "Prove those awards are notable" "Long involved proof that the award itself is notable" "That proof was not from a reliable source" "The source was plenty reliable." "Nuh-uh" "Yeah-huh, and what about the awards his Web show won?" "Those aren't notable awards" "That's because webisodes is a new field, but the awards recognize that he is a notable writer" "Sorry, still doesn't count." "Does too" "Does not" Enough already. The Hunted won awards, he deserves some credit for it, he's Notable.Listmeister (talk) 19:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - Can you please identify what award was won by The Hunted? In any case, notability is not inherited, and that "he deserves some credit for it" is a personal opinion. AFDs are kept or deleted based on Wikipedia guideline and policy which your argument fails to address in any manner. -- Whpq (talk) 20:36, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Just Click on The Hunted. Taram (talk) 21:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)- That's WP:CIRCULAR. Qworty (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Reply - I believe you mean The Hunted (web series). And yes, I did do that. There are NO awards listed in the awards and recognition section. Being an "official selection" just means it was selected for showing in the festival. That is why I am asking you folks who are claiming an award to identify what this award is. -- Whpq (talk) 21:26, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- They cannot identify what award Andrew Helm received for "The Hunted" because he himself never received one. We've been round and round and round with this for days now, and while I'd like to assume good faith, the plain fact is that just because a web series was nominated for an award does not mean that Helm received an award. See WP:NOTINHERITED. To claim that he actually won an award for this series is nothing short of a falsehood. Qworty (talk) 21:57, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - Can you please identify what award was won by The Hunted? In any case, notability is not inherited, and that "he deserves some credit for it" is a personal opinion. AFDs are kept or deleted based on Wikipedia guideline and policy which your argument fails to address in any manner. -- Whpq (talk) 20:36, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
*Keep That works for me (Listmeister)! "The Hunted won awards, he deserves some credit for it, he's Notable." SNCKnight (talk) 20:21, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. I'm going to ignore the arguments about the reliability of the sources. The reason is because that argument happens to be irrelevant since if we accept the sources they demonstrate very little in terms of notability anyway. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Closing admin please note Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Taram. --Rschen7754 07:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
THREE BLOCKED SOCKS WHO FAVOR "KEEP" HAVE MADE A TRAVESTY OF THIS AFD For days now, these three socks, Taram, Wordsword1, and SNCKnight--who are all the same person--have "interacted" with one another and with other users, arguing that Andrew Helm is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. What is clear from these "debates" is that Andrew Helm has exactly zero WP:RS to fulfill any Wikipedia policy that any experienced Wikipedian is aware of. The arguments for his inclusion are nothing more than WP:ILIKEIT and SOCK PUPPETRY. I submit it is time for a speedy close of this "discussion" and deletion per WP:SNOW. Qworty (talk) 10:05, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, suspicions confirmed. The three accounts have to a lesser extent done the same in the AfD-page for Roberta Brown, so I did a strikethrough of their comments on that page too. As for the notability of that particular subject I haven't really looked into it yet though. Hst20 (talk) 11:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Notes[edit]
- ^ == October 2010 ==
Please do not attack other editors, as you did at Talk:Meg_Whitman. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Qworty, your hostile behavior at Talk:Meg Whitman is completely unacceptable. You have been warned many times in the past about civility violations and so I know you know better. Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
INSZoom[edit]
AfDs for this article:
- INSZoom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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fails WP:ORG. only 2 news hits. Ushau97 talk 17:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
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- Delete and salt. Business making "immigration software", which I gather really is software for businesses to check the immigration status of potential employees. That's a long list of petty trade awards and Top 10 lists of other non-notable businesses, but nothing makes a case for significant effects on history, technology, or culture. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 04:27, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*Don't Delete. The above page is about a company which has been widely recognized and has received lots of accreditations. In my opinion the above article only shares the facts which has reliable sources, and is not promoting their products in any manner. Reconsider the AfD. MrNiceGuy114 (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)Struck vote from blocked sockpuppet. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete -- Looks as if it has a program to generate paperwork to get people into UK and US. Is that about legal immigration? Peterkingiron (talk) 18:40, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Delete, subject appears to have received multiple mentions in non-primary reliable sources. That being said, the subject does not appear to have received significant coverage in those non-primary reliable sources, and it is my opinion that if taken in total they do not add up to one significant coverage content article/source. Therefore, failing WP:GNG, it is my present opinion that the company is not yet notable enough to warrant notability as Wikipedia defines it.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:58, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*Don't Delete. The article is about an immigration software company, which is accredited by NASSCOM, Stevie Awards and Best of San Ramon. The above article doesn't promote their products in any manner through the article. 115.242.249.144 (talk) 04:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Struck vote from blocked sockpuppet. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
- Not for Deletion. The above is a general encyclopedic article of a recognized immigration software company. The clientele includes Microsoft, IBM, BP etc, which makes the above company is good to be in Wikipedia.
Writeindia (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
*Don't Delete. I support MrNiceGuy114's opinion. Reconsider AfD and close this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Writer107 (talk • contribs) 05:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC) Struck vote from blocked sockpuppet. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. This article currently reads like a press release or a promotional brochure. In order for an article on this topic to remain, the article really needs to discuss what the software in question does, what its competitors are, and what distinguishes it from other software products in the same market. There should also be critical commentary on the company and its product(s), giving a balanced and neutral set of perspectives. If the article can be improved in these ways, it may be salvageable; otherwise, it should be deleted. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 00:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
'Please do not close this discussion until this SPI case is closed.'--Ushau97 talk 11:29, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Specifically, it is being suggested that Writeindia (talk · contribs), Writer107 (talk · contribs), MrNiceGuy114 (talk · contribs), and 115.242.249.144 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) may all be the same person. This issue should be cleared up, one way or the other, before deciding how to weigh the input of these users. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 00:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- Since the primary contributor to the article (Writeindia) has been blocked for a week for sockpuppetry, it might possibly be appropriate to put this AfD on hold until he is able to respond to the issues raised here. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 02:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
DigitalJournal, SysCon Media, SiliconIndia, PressRelease, SiliconIndia, YahooNews, Businessweek --Tito Dutta (contact) 18:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 14:43, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Reslist comment: As we had issues with sockpuppets and a late flurry of sources provided, another week would probably be useful. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 14:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete and salt. Most, if not all, of the additional sources found by Titodutta are press releases or company submitted puff pieces. It would take a rather more selective list of sources to convince me. By the way, I think it is rarely helpful to keep open a sock infested debate like this one. SpinningSpark 22:00, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete the "impressive" list of "references" are just press releases from the company. SalHamton (talk) 22:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. I was looking for immigration software and stumbled upon this article and the company. From my research, I find it notable enough to be on wikipedia.Here is the link Also, the article didn't seem promotional to me. Though the recognitions can be better framed to be meeting the WP:ORG PriyankaLewis (talk) 10:34, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
*Keep I don't find any genuine reason to delete the article because the article has clear citations to prove that it is a notable company. But I do feel the language can be neutralized and relevant references can be added for reconsiderationAngeldiv.87 (talk) 12:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC) — Angeldiv.87 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Struck contribution confirmed as a sockpuppet of Writeindia. SpinningSpark 13:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. This page is about a notable company which has been consistently ranked among the Top 100 IT innovator, Top 100 Enterprise Software, 50 Outstanding Asian American Business etc, and is recognized by NASSCOM and Asian American Business Center. [1]. Hope this complies the policies and eligibility criteria of Notability_(organizations_and_companies). Please share your views! Thanks. Writeindia (talk) 05:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC) This contributer has been identified as the a sockmaster abusing this AFD. SpinningSpark 13:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
KeepI believe that the company INSZoom is a well recognized and notable immigration compliance and global mobility Software Company.
Hemanandy (talk) 19:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC) Struck contribution from user identified as a likely sockpuppet of Writeindia. SpinningSpark 13:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Comment, in view of the ongoing socking, I strongly urge the closing admin to speedy close this AfD and not to relist it. I again urge that the page is salted to prevent a repeat of this circus. SpinningSpark 14:08, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. Please carefully study the General Notability Guideline (WP:GNG), which expects "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Essentially all the sources cited so far are reprints of press releases, which are explicitly listed as a kind of source that is not considered independent for purposes of satisfying the GNG. The fact that a press release has been republished by a reliable news source is not enough to make it independent of the subject. If INSZoom truly is as noteworthy as is being claimed, then there should be numerous independent sources discussing the company without basing their comments primarily or exclusively on the company's own self-promotional material. Even assuming the editors writing here in favour of keeping this article were not sockpuppets, their arguments are not policy-based, because they are putting forward sources of a type not considered acceptable per the GNG. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 16:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. The article was indeed previously speedy deleted twice, as Csidaranoli should be perfectly aware of, since they were the creator, and they got both notices on their talk page.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Helen M. Radics[edit]
 | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}. |
- Helen M. Radics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Biography of a self-published cookbook author who does not meet WP:AUTHOR. The claims to notability are that she has been "featured" in newspaper articles and on television; however, there are no sources that actually back up these claims. The existing external sources are reviews of her books in local newspapers. There is also a Hungarian-language source from the Hungarian "Life" website (which seems to be the same as the "Life Network" mentioned in the article) - this may very well be a good source but it seems to be the only one, and so it does not meet WP:GNG. I believe that the main contributor to the article (who has a COI) has, in all good faith, interpreted the small number of newspaper reviews rather liberally as being "featured". As for the CTV News mention, all I can find in the way of verification is this. There is also no source for the claim that the person has been noted by the Hungarian National Tourism Board, and when I try to find such sources all I can find are blurbs written by the author herself in many places. bonadea contributions talk 08:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
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- Comment New sources have appeared in the article - I don't have the time to evaluate them right now. Note also that there's been canvassing on an external blog to "vote to delete the article" - though I'm not seeing hordes of people coming here from there, to be frank. --bonadea contributions talk 09:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Addendum to the above: Unfortunately I cannot see that the added sources support the claim of notability. --bonadea contributions talk 18:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello, thank you for your reply on your talk page. I'm sorry but I wasn't aware that I was supposed to write here instead. I appreciate you placing a note about a "non-vote" on this article's faith. I have attempted to place additional links in the article however for some reason they came up as banned links by Wikipedia so I needed to remove them in order to save the page.
I have also attempted to place here several links including the links to verify the interviews with Life Network/ Life Magazine and CTV news however for some reason whenever I attempt to save this page it notifies me that these links are on Wikipedia's Black List. I am completely lost. I am not sure how else to verify these interviewed, cooking segments, cooking show and other notability related info. Helen M. Radics was featured on CTV twice, also done cooking segments and was interviewed by Life Network/Life Magazine twice (Hungary) and was the celebrity team leader for the Christmas special of Life Network. This is an annual event and is an honor to be chosen. I can only verify these privately by email as to copyright reasons and due to Wikipedia blacklisting these sources.
I'm sorry but I don't really know what else to include as all of the CTV interviews as mentioned above are the copyright protected video's of CTV News. I can only send them to you perhaps privately to verify that they actually took place. Please let me know what else I can do.
Thank you for your time and assistance.
Sincerely
(Csidaranoli (talk) 20:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csidaranoli (talk • contribs) 20:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 01:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Well, there is not much discussion here - I still don't believe that notability is shown, especially since there are apparently no independent sources, as noted above. There is no reason to doubt the fact that Radics was intrviewed on CTV News, but a lot of people are interviewed on TV; CTV News is a specialty channel with limited coverage, and the fact that Radics is not found on their website, despite her being interviewed by them, seems (to me) indicative of a lack of notability. However, if there are no other editors weighing in the article will be kept as a lack of consensus, and I shan't lose any sleep over that. --bonadea contributions talk 11:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 05:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello I agree not much discussion, but on the actual "talk" page at the article site an unfair competitor of Helen M. Radics has written an entire tirade to slander the author. She did not actually sign her name as it could be used against her to lay defamatory libel (criminal charges) under the Criminal Code of Canada. Last year this person's account has been suspended due to her constantly vandalizing this actual article. I'd like to know how would it be possible to prevent any further libelous postings by this individual and also how to remove her comments on that "talk" page. Thank you for your help Csidaranoli (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- Delete Previously speedily deleted; Self-published cookbook author with no WP:RS third party sources to establish WP:BIO or WP:GNG notability. Likely WP:COI creator. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
You are mistaken!!! This article has NEVER BEEN Deleted. I don't know where you are getting this information, but please check your facts. The person who has been libeling Helen M. Radics has been deleted from Wikipedia and NOT Helen M. Radics. I would like to avoid any sort of confusion here. I like you to only post the facts here please. Thank you, have a nice day. Csidaranoli (talk) 03:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the article has been deleted before, several times. Here's the deletion log for Helen M. Radics, and here's the deletion log for Helen Marta Radics. — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 03:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the article was never deleted. Photos uploaded into the article have been deleted but the article has never been. I don't know where you are seeing this information but it is wrong. I would know if it would have been deleted, after all I created the article I would have noticed if I would have been required to re-create this article multiple times. The photos have been deleted by Wikipedia because I didn't know how to add them to the article and not for any other reason, but that doesn't mean that the article has ever been deleted. I couldn't see anything on the deletion log page. Csidaranoli (talk) 00:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
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- ^ . AABDC http://www.aabdc.com/outstanding50award/2010/info.php.
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