Closed. An RFC is being used to resolve the question. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
In the last months a problem has surfaced when an editor unilaterally changed a football article's structure fundamentally. This action was explained by referring to the WP:ACCESS. However, the same guideline endorses the collapsible parameter |"In particular, while some templates support a collapsible parameter or manually-added CSS class, and this is permissible"= which the template actually does. One of the experienced editors that took part in the discussion provided a comfortable solution to this problem by using |class=collapsible when using these templates. A third opinion was sought, but unfortunately this did not lead to any result. The football box collapsible is a long established and preffered format in and overwhelming number of articles. As such it is used in featured lists as well for example Faroe Islands national football team results.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I think that there is a good possibility of an agreement between us if an experienced and knowledgeable wikipedian can solve the dispute to the satisfaction of both parties.
Summary of dispute by Stevie fae Scotland
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I am the editor who proposed using |class=collapsible to eliminate concerns about automatically hidden material, which is discouraged by MOS. I did so after being asked to look at the initial discussion. My understanding is that the use of that parameter would not fully allay accessibility concerns of one or more editors, who prefer a wikitable over the very popular {{footballbox collapsible}}, even in a default expanded state. Perhaps one of those editors could explain their objections briefly, with quotations from relevant guidelines or policies. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:28, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Nehme1499
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Jonesey95 made a good point regarding the possible use of the collapsible parameter (which I personally wouldn't have any issues with). However, if I understood correctly, SFS says that it may cause problems with screen readers. Nehme1499 12:12, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Microwave Anarchist
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Like Nehme1499, I noticed this edit war with the page being on my watchlist, and so reverted Sakiv. My rationale is that MOS:LIST and WP:WHENTABLE suggest that a wikitable is the preferred format for list of sports results such as this, and there is loose consensus WT:WPF that wikitables should be used for lists of results like this. As SFS says, there is no policy to support the use of {{football box collapsible}}, and it may also cause problems with screen readers, so I see no reason for the {{football box collapsible}} to be used, other than that some editors happen to prefer it. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 18:03, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Island92
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The use of the first style is doing well. I don't see the need of making it into something else which may appear too elementary for a reader. I principally edit the fixtures and results of Germany and Italy national Football Teams and even during former articles for years (before like an IP) I've always found the first style. It is also being used for club pages and European competition. Why adopting this change for National teams?--Island92 (talk) 10:45, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Argentina national football team results (2020–present) discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Note - Is this a dispute about the formatting of a table? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:22, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
This dispute is about which format is the most appropriate in football articles.--Sakiv (talk) 23:30, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Comment As an uninvolved observer- the top format looks cluttered, while the bottom is sleek an organized. I would find it easier to get information from the bottom. Just my two cents though. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
I respect your opinion, but the template is used in over 18,000 articles and contains scorers from both teams, a basic piece of information that is missing in these tables.--Sakiv (talk) 17:50, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
First statement by Moderator (Argentine football)
I will act as the moderator. We will see if we can agree on the table format, but it is probable that this dispute will be resolved by a Request for Comments. Civility and cooperation are needed to resolve this dispute. Please read the ground rules. You are responsible for complying with the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Each editor is asked to make an opening statement, of one paragraph, stating which table format you want, and whether there are any other issues. If you wish to respond to each other, do it only in the second marked back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
In order to resolve this dispute, we really only need to establish two things. Firstly, what kind of articles these are and therefore what the relevant policies and guidelines are. This will then allow us to establish which format to use. At this stage, it should also be acknowledged that no personal preference should be considered without relevant justification through established policies and guidelines.
These articles are a chronological collation of results of a specific national football team. I could be into more detail, but to be concise, we have listed the seven articles of this type which are featured lists so they are list articles. This had been a previous point of contention as MOS:LIST states: The titles of stand-alone lists typically begin with the type of list it is (List of, Index of, etc.), followed by the article's subject, e.g., List of vegetable oils. As a potential solution to clear up any ambiguity, it may be an idea to rename these articles in line with WP:NCLL to List of X national football team results (date range).
As to the format of the list, WP:SAL contains details of the formats used on Wikipedia for list articles. None of these are remotely similar to the football box template format however, formats used for chronological lists includes sortable tables. This is backed up by WP:WHENTABLE which specifically includes lists of sports results as an appropriate use of tables.
Finally, the other main consideration is what WP:READERS will be looking for when they come to these pages. That will primarily be the score, the opposition, the competition and the date. Other information such as the venue/attendance/scorers can add context but I genuinely do not believe that they will be looking for anything more. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and for these articles, the line should be drawn at information a reader would generally expect to see on these pages and not what football statistics websites would include. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
In one paragraph: WP:SAL contains details of the formats used on Wikipedia for list articles. None of these are remotely similar to the football box template format however, formats used for chronological lists includes sortable tables. This is backed up by WP:WHENTABLE which specifically includes lists of sports results as an appropriate use of tables. In these articles, primarily, WP:READERS will be looking for the score, the opposition, the competition and the date. Some further information (venue/attendance/scorers) can be added for context, anything more would be WP:INDISCRIMINATE. The fact the football box template is generally collapsed implies that the extra information is unnecessary. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 14:48, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
First of all, it must be taken into account that the point of disagreement revolves around a template used in the vast majority of articles of clubs and teams' seasons. By that, I mean also FIFA World Cup qualifiers, UEFA tournaments and many others. Editors may find the table too difficult to edit especially when they have to go to the top to read the headers of every column. To address the issue of accessibility, I and other editors have supported the idea of not keeping the template collapsed, thereby making it easier for the reader to learn the information they need.
Moreover, the table does not add any essential addition that is not present in the template except that it reduces basic information such as penalty shooters, referees, rounds and notes in case the match is not held as scheduled. Therefore there is a remarkable consensus re the template, and the evidence is its countless usage. Furthermore, WikiProject Football/National teams gives an example of how a match should look like in articles and obviously endorses the community's use of the template in football matches.
Some examples of the best articles that contain the template:
First of all, it must be taken into account that the point of disagreement revolves around a template used in the vast majority of articles of clubs and teams' seasons. By that, I mean also FIFA World Cup qualifiers, UEFA tournaments and many others. Editors may find the table too difficult to edit especially when they have to go to the top to read the headers of every column. To address the issue of accessibility, I and other editors have supported the idea of not keeping the template collapsed, thereby making it easier for the reader to learn the information they need. We finished addressing the access point and found a solution for it that was more than acceptable. There is no need to continue the same argument. The template was collapsed to keep information flowing, keep it organized, and easy to navigate. Like there are tables that can be collapsed based on one's desire. This question should be asked to the editor who created the template and why it was used in such a large number of articles first.--Sakiv (talk) 15:35, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Argentine football)
I almost thought that I had forgotten to say "Be civil and concise". I did remember to say that. Being civil is required, but that doesn't mean that walls of text are permitted.
Since it appears that some of the editors think that long statements are better than short ones, I will allow the editors to engage in back-and-forth discussion for between 48 and 72 hours to see if they can agree. If there is no agreement, there will be a Request for Comments. The editors are reminded that a Request for Comments involves the participation of the community, and other editors are more likely to be persuaded by shorter statements than by longer statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:03, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Discussion by editors (Argentine football)
May I suggest that we start small? Can we agree that different types of articles should be formatted and structured differently depending on the nature of the information contained within the article? This would mean that a template or table can routinely be used in one type of article despite the fact it would be inappropriate for another type of article. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 19:35, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
We can start with the small details on the way to a comprehensive solution. Other details related to the case can be dealt with later. That would be a good start for everyone. I would like for us to define which articles it is desirable to contain tables or templates.--Sakiv (talk) 03:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
As we have been discussing national team results articles, I would suggest we limit our focus solely to these articles and nothing else. So let's not compare with other articles like World Cup qualifiers or league season articles where tables and templates are used appropriately, only national team results articles and the validity there. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 08:54, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
How do the articles of the national team results differ from the club seasons, for example?--Sakiv (talk) 17:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
National team results articles are stand-alone lists whereas club season articles aren't list articles and should be based around prose outlining what happened that year. Club season articles do contain lists but the article as a whole is not a list article. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
It seems that it is too difficult to reach a solution.--Sakiv (talk) 20:43, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
I thought we had made some progress, albeit slow, so I'm a bit disappointed actually. I feel excluding club season articles would make it easier to move forward. If this is the end of discussions and an RfC is the outcome, I would very much appreciate it if the moderator could outline the process going forward. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:00, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
If we need an RFC, I hope that the moderater is the one to initiate it in order to ensure neutrality and objectivity.--Sakiv (talk) 21:17, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
To be fair, I don't think it'll make a difference who starts it. Whoever it is will ask should we do x or y, you and I will put our views forward and the community will decide based on existing policies and guidelines. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Third statement by moderator (Argentine football)
We will resolve the dispute by Request for Comments. Are there any unresolved issues besides the format of the table? I will develop a draft of the RFC and will then post it to run for 30 days. Please state, to me and to the community, whether there are any issues besides the format of the table. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:48, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Third statements by editors (Argentine football)
Third statement by Stevie fae Scotland
The only issue is the format of the article. I think limiting the scope of an RfC to lists of national team results would make it easier to find a consensus among editors. I would also suggest that WP:SAL should be highlighted as a relevant consideration as these articles are standalone lists. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 16:30, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Third statements by Sakiv
I would like to emphasize that these articles are in no way lists and do not differentiate from the articles of the club seasons. Most important, their titles don't start with a specification like list of or timeline of or similar. If there is any doubt contexts can added to each year or decade of the results.--Sakiv (talk) 17:05, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Fourth statement by moderator (Argentine football)
To answer a question, yes, I will draft the RFC, and will then start it running. I will provide the draft RFC shortly.
Robert McClenon (talk) 06:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Fourth statements by editors (Argentine football)
Fifth statement by moderator (Argentine football)
The draft RFC is available for your review at Talk:Argentina national football team results (2020–present)/Draft RFC. You may comment on it, or may edit it to improve the appearance of the option that you favor. Do Not vote in it. (At this point, we are still printing the ballots.) If you agree that this is the way to conduct the RFC, we will make the RFC go active. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Fifth statements by editors (Argentine football)
Fifth statement by Stevie fae Scotland
Happy to support that wording for the RfC. Thank you for your help in resolving this Robert. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:56, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Sixth statement by moderator (Argentine football)
The RFC has gone live. It will run for 30 days. Unless there are any other comments, this case will be closed in 24 to 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Sixth statements by editors (Argentine football)
Back-and-forth discussion (Argentine football)
@Robert McClenon: Does that mean the template is a kind of table when you said "the format of the table"?--Sakiv (talk) 17:08, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
I thought we had moved past the 'these aren't lists' arguments when you had brought up a featured list in your previous argument but if that is the case perhaps the RfC should also include how these articles are titled to clear up any ambiguity. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 18:34, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, in the example given at the top, the template is being used as a method of formatting a table. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:56, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: Thank you. I think this a good way forward. How can we ensure that a reasonable number of editors participate in the survey? I don't think the RfC will reach many of them.--Sakiv (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Talk:List of Linux distributions that run from RAM
Closed. This was a dispute about whether an off-topic but not otherwise offensive post could be removed from an article talk page. After reviewing the guidelines, I restored but collapsed the post. Talk page posts may be removed if they seriously violate guidelines, such as by being libelous or personal attacks. Off-topic posts should be collapsed instead. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:15, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I posted a tool on the list talk that editors could use to save time researching reliable sources and do fact checking for the list. It was reverted by a newbie, who accepted me restoring it without any objections after I explained why the revert was wrong, so I have no dispute with them. I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Linux_distributions_that_run_from_RAM&diff=1015741603&oldid=1015713344 later posted} to make very sure it was understood the intent of my post was to help editors with their search for reliable sources. The next comment appeared from Ahunt in the form of a misinterpretation I took to be somewhat of a borderline personal attack by incorrectly suggesting I was promoting the insertion of unreliably sourced original research, a patently false insinuation, but I responded in good faith, and tried to correct the misinterpretation by explaining I already made my intentions clear to help editors with their search for reliable sources, and OR was not a problem since nobody had introduced any, or even advocated for it as he was suggesting. My correction was ignored, and resulted in the entire conversation being deleted. I tried to address the issues on Ahunts talk page, but Ahunt was dismissive of my concerns by just making a simple denial without any apologies or explanations as to why they were making unwarranted suggestions, but rather focused on why they were not going to restore the comment because they outnumber me, and even kind of implied the threat of a 3rd editor becoming involved to outnumber me as well. After making a last effort to push for a resolution, I was met with a final dismissive comment resulting in us being here. The reason they've given for the removal is WP:TALK, making the patently false claims that I've attempted to engage in general discussion about the subject of the article, and my comments were not directly related to the improvement of the article. I emphatically disagree with these claims.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
It is my position that my comment is in line with WP:TALK per Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article since I made it clear it was my intention to help editors improve the article. There is no evidence I ever attempted to make general talk about the subject of the article, only provide a useful tool. I think dispute resolution might be the way to get an objective outside set of eyes to make an assessment. I know that messing with other people's comments is very serious.
Summary of dispute by Ahunt
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Two editors (User:Johnnie Bob and me) have both removed this from the article talk page as per WP:TALK#USE because instructions about how to test software do not belong on an article talk page. WP:TALK#USE says "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. If you want to discuss the subject of an article, you can do so at Wikipedia:Reference desk instead. Comments that are plainly irrelevant are subject to archival or removal." As a result it has been removed twice now. I do not think it is appropriate to bring this to dispute resolution as it is a trivial talk page matter, not an unresolvable editing dispute. I have already indicated that if he adds it back to the talk page a third time I will not remove it, so there is no dispute to resolve, although I did say it was likely that some other editor would remove it, as per the guideline cited above. I personally do not intend to spend any more time on this issue. - Ahunt (talk) 02:33, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Talk:List of Linux distributions that run from RAM discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Statement
This was not an article content issue but an article talk page dispute. The filing party had posted a discussion of a tool to the article talk page. Two other editors considered the post to be off-topic, and deleted it. The filing party requested dispute resolution. DRN is not designated as the forum to resolve disputes of this nature, but I will state what the policies and guidelines say, and have taken what I consider to be appropriate action. Certain types of posts, such as personal attacks and libel, may be removed from article talk pages. This post did not fall into any of the categories of material that should be removed from article talk pages. However, the other editors were correct that it was off-topic from improving the article. The talk page guidelines state that material that is off-topic may be collapsed. I have restored the post about the tool to the talk page but have collapsed it. I will close this case within 48 hours, but am leaving it open for now so as to display this explanation.
Robert McClenon (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Rastafari
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Czar Petar I on 10:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC).
Closing because- there has been insufficient discussion at this time. Only a handful of messages have been posted on the talk page- and DRN asks that editors give a significant good faith effort before coming here. Also- I would like to remind all involved editors that 1- Accusing someone of an edit war when they are not in one is not WP:AGF- and 2- filing editor is reminded to read WP:BRD, you made a bold change- it has been reverted- now you must discuss the proposed change on the article talk page. Other editors will work with you to find an acceptable compromise. Finally- please disclose a WP:COI and read the policy on conflicts of interest- it is recommended that on pages you have a connection to- you suggest changes on the talk page and refrain from actually editing them yourself. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
We would like to know the exact steps that we need to follow in order to demonstrate that the information in the subsection "Mansions of Rastafari" which we're attempting to edit using credible sources is reliable and accurate because there seems to be a misunderstanding with the other users involved in the discussion. Please let us know how we can attempt to resolve this dispute civilly, any instruction provided to us will be greatly appreciated thanks for all you do.
Summary of dispute by Midnightblueowl
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Czar Petar I is a fairly new editor with limited experience editing (they joined in 2014, but have only really been active since January 2021) and they almost exclusively edit pages pertaining to Rastafari. They present themselves as a member of the Order of Primus St. Croix, a fairly small, relatively new Rastafari group (or "Mansion" in Rasta discourse) and on 15 and 16 April 2021 they added a very large chunk of text all about this Order to the "Mansions of Rastafari" section of the FA-rated Rastafari article. They also added an image of the group's logo. I reverted these additions on 17 April, citing the fact that the added material relied heavily on primary sources produced by the Order, which is otherwise not a group discussed in WP:Reliable Sources written by academics specialising on Rastafari. ("Order of Primus St. Croix" brings up no hits on Google Scholar, for instance). To my mind, this was WP:Undue Weight and also WP:Advocacy; essentially, we have a member of a small and largely ignored sect trying to gain more attention for their group via Wikipedia. In my edit summary I pointed Czar Petar to WP:BRD and encouraged Talk Page discussion.
On 18 April, Czar Petar I restored all of the information I had removed about their Order; this edit of theirs also included a great deal of information about Rasta groups other than their own. In doing so they massively expanded the "Mansions of Rastafari" section of the page, making it incredibly unwieldy (and undermining the article's FA-rating). They seemed to believe that by increasing coverage of groups other than their own, they were cancelling out the Undue issue that I had raised (a misunderstanding of WP:Undue). I considered this restoration to be WP:Edit warring, and said as much on the Talk Page, which they have taken issue with. I stressed that they needed WP:Consensus for their edits and noted that WP:Dispute resolution could be an option, which has resulted in them bringing the case here. User:Moxy has also popped up at the Talk Page (unsolicited) and raised similar concerns as my own; concerns that I think most experienced editors would share. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:32, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
This seems to be a fairly accurate assessment thus far however I would prefer if Midnightblueowl cited the exact sections of the WP protocols he's referring to rather than linking entire pages without any specificity. Please note that I complied with his initial request that, "Talk Page discussion would be the next step" and cited his original edit summary from the revision history page at the very beginning of the motion.Czar Petar I (talk) 12:27, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I also just fact-checked Midnightblueowl's claim that the "Order of Primus St. Croix brings up no hits on Google Scholar" however there is in a fact a Google Scholar source (albeit one) that references Primus St. Croix on page twenty-two: Building Beyond Babylon.Czar Petar I (talk) 15:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
The source in question is an undergraduate essay rather than a peer-reviewed publication, and it makes only passing reference to Primus St Croix, not mentioning his Order at all. Aside from the fact that this is a source of dubious quality, the fact that this is all that can be cited regarding the Order shows that it fails to meet WP:Notability requirements for coverage at Wikipedia (at least at the present time - things may well change in future). Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:50, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm also forced to cite Wikipedia:Assume good faith already in this discussion in response to the accusations of being "a member of a small and largely ignored sect trying to gain more attention for their group via Wikipedia," I yield my time and await the moderators instructions.Czar Petar I (talk) 15:45, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Moxy
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Rastafari movement discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm closing this because there are open cases on other boards- specifically WP:FRINGE. I advise the inolved editors to see how that turns out, then I recommend taking the sources to the RS noticeboard to get their opinions- as this dispute does largely hang on the validity of the sources- and I am not a biblical scholar expert- but there are many over there. Finally- assuming that this is determined not to be fringe and the sources acceptable- I would have the editors who have already stepped up on the talk page for help-re-writing. I also want to caution and remind both involved editors to WP:AGF stop the personal attacks and discuss this like rational adults. Stop repeating yourselves over and over. Person A says this, Person B says this- instead of person A repeating their argument again with more aggression or condescension- try discussing it, or asking for imput from others, evolve your argument, attempt compromise. That is what we do here- but since I am recommending a few additional steps before coming back here- I am advising you both to start doing that on the talk page. Finally- I want to remind the filing editor of the policy for contentios changes- you insert something, if it is reverted- you do not insert it again until you have discussed on the talk page and reached concensus. And telling someone who disagrees with you "Thanks for agreeing with me." is childish. You know darn well he wasn't agreeing with you- don't try that again. And to the other editor- telling someone DRN won't work for them is also childish. You don't like their argument- but multiple other editors have come to the talk page and told you that their argument deserves some examination- not that it needs to be inserted- but that you need to back down from WP:OWN and discuss it with an open mind. Now- if the Frige noticeboard, THEN Reliable Source noticeboard, THEN getting help from other involved editors doesn't work- you are welcome to come back here and we will have a little more knowledge to go on. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:48, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I added details pertinent to the discussion of whether or not Jesus' prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem was an example of "Vaticinium ex eventu" (prophecy after the fact.) My additions were well-sourced, reasonable, and well within the confines of modern scholarship. User Tgeorgescu reverted my edits and asked me to provide more citations from a wider berth of secular sources. I expanded my edits further. He once again reverted my edits. When I asked why he said I was in violation of the NPOV policy and that my sources were unreliable and not credible because they weren't written post-2001. (There were two sources from the 20th century, but the rest were from the 21st.) He then told me that "dispute resolution won't do you any good." I continued to attempt to reason with him as to how my edits violated Wikipedia's policies. He accused my of attempting to right a great wrong and a refusal to get to the point. I feel that my edits were fair and reasoned and should be included on the page.
Here is the final version of my edits that were completely reverted and removed without any basis:
The New Testament gospels have an interesting example of Vaticinium ex eventu. The first gospel written, according to scholars, was the Gospel of Mark. Scholars date the Gospel of Mark from the late 60s C.E. to the early 70s C.E.[1] with most scholars preferring a later date [2]. Mark gives Jesus’ prediction of the destruction of the Second Temple the following way:
"But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains." (Mark 13:14 NRSV)
The Gospel of Luke, written after Mark, changes the phrasing:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains." (Luke 21:20-21)
This is probably an example of Vaticinium ex eventu[3]; Luke has paraphrased Jesus’ words after the event to match them up with what actually happened[4][5].
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I think an experienced editor/admin can determine whether or not my edits really have violated the policies that user Tgeorgescu said they did.
Summary of dispute by Tgeorgescu
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
There is nothing to dispute: the POV the OP defends lost the support of the mainstream academia long ago. Evidence (compliant with WP:RS/AC): Boyd, Gregory A. (1 October 2010). Cynic Sage or Son of God?: Recovering the Real Jesus in an Age of Revisionist Replies. Wipf and Stock Publishers. p. 238. ISBN978-1-60899-953-8. The primary reason why Mack and Crossan—and a majority of historical-critical scholars—date Mark after A.D. 70 is that Mark has Jesus prophesy the destruction of the temple in Mark 13, what is known as the "little apocalypse" of Mark." Since it is assumed that neither Jesus nor Mark could have had knowledge of this event ahead of time, a post-70 date is required. The "prophecy," in other words, is a vaticinium ex eventu (prophecy after the event). Three general considerations, however, lead us to judge this argument inconclusive.
"Most scholars" and "either way": Beavis, Mary Ann (November 2011). Mark. Baker Academic. p. 190. ISBN978-0-8010-3437-4. She says the dating claim is heavily disputed between two camps, but both sides recognize the Markan claim as vaticinium ex eventu.
Speaking of "most scholars" (with Luke instead of Mark, but speaking of Mark ch. 13): Liefeld, Walter L.; Pao, David W. (7 March 2017). Luke. Zondervan Academic. p. PT59. ISBN978-0-310-53200-2.
Conclusion: it was either written during that Jewish-Roman war or short after it. If the former is true, that fact is a red herring and WP:OR/WP:SYNTH in our article, since both camps agree that it is vaticinium ex eventu. The OP is begging the question that a pre-70 AD dating would imply that it isn't so. WP:SCHOLARSHIP does not work that way. Just another case of an editor applying logic and evidence on their own, instead of sticking to WP:V and WP:RS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Vaticinium ex eventu discussion
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Discuss at the article talk page while waiting for a moderator. This discussion is being copied to the article talk page and collapsed. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:44, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
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As an outside observer, it seems like @Tgeorgescu: is simply refusing to WP:Listen. The user is saying that there are mainstream sources that do suggest that Mark was written before AD 70, and Tgeorgescu simply puts hands in his ears and keeps shouting "it's not mainstream consensus". Very puerile and childish behavior from someone who spends 45% of his Wikipedia career on ANI threads --JimboBuckets99 (talk) 22:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't care if the pre-70 AD is either credible minority or fringe view. In both cases it is a red herring, as [1] shows. As Mary Ann Beavis argued, both the pre-70 AD camp as the post-70 AD camp agree that Mark 13 is vaticinium ex eventu. So the dating of the gospel is irrelevant in such respect. In the best case OP's edits are original synthesis and in the worst case are WP:TE. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
If that is in fact true, and @Tgeorgescu: was NOT arguing that Mark's overall date pre-70 is fringe, then I think there is a point to be made. I read part of it as violation of WP:LISTEN, but if Tgeorge is willing to concede that mainstream sources DO in fact date Mark as a whole pre-70 (usually around 65-66), then I have no problem, so long as it can be shown that 1 chapter of it is at dispute and not the whole of it JimboBuckets99 (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
As Achar Sva wrote (As Perkins makes clear, a pre-70 date is very much a minority), see [2]. I don't put all my money on it either being fringe or mainstream minority view. The pre-70 camp could argue that the end of that war became predictable, or that it is a later edit to the gospel, or some other reason, anyway, they agree it is v.e.e. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:11, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
@JimboBuckets99: He was arguing that, but he changed his mind mid mid-discussion. I'm not sure why the 70 AD date for Mark has become such an issue for @Tgeorgescu:. That's not the main point of my edits. My focus was on the Gospel of Luke. If Tgeorgescu had such a big problem with the way that I phrased the pre-70 AD view, he could've corrected it and edited it to make it better. Instead, he just removed my addition completely. Again, that was a side note in my post. My post focused on the Gospel of Luke citation. I wasn't taking a stand on the reference on Mark one way or the other. I just don't understand the knee jerk reaction against my entire post when the issue (apparently) was two or three words. Rusdo (talk) 01:51, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
The reason is simple: we do not water down the mainstream view (academic consensus). Even if I grant you the point that pre-70 AD is a legitimate view, it does not follow what you claim (i.e. it does not follow that those verses aren't v.e.e.). It does not follow because it fails WP:V: it is your own inference that a pre-70 AD dating would preclude it being a v.e.e. Wikipedia does not work that way, since original research and original synthesis are banned. Editors are not allowed to draw inferences from existing scholarly literature, they may only abstract (summarize) what those WP:RS explicitly say. To WP:Verifiy your claim you would have to WP:CITE a modern, mainstream Bible scholar who explicitly stated that those verses aren't v.e.e. And I'm afraid that's WP:FRINGE even if the pre-70 AD dating isn't fringe.
The New Testament gospels have an interesting example of Vaticinium ex eventu. The first gospel written, according to scholars, was the Gospel of Mark. Scholars date the Gospel of Mark from the late 60s C.E. to the early 70s C.E.[6] with most scholars preferring the later date [7]. Mark gives Jesus’ prediction of the destruction of the Second Temple the following way: "But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains." (Mark 13:14 NRSV) The Gospel of Luke, written after Mark, changes the phrasing: "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains." (Luke 21:20-21)
Which are your WP:SOURCES? Britannica, Perkins and the Bible (the later is banned according to WP:RSPSCRIPTURE). Neither Britannica nor Perkins (at that specific page) say anything about v.e.e. (Although Perkins makes some point about Mark 13, she does not explicitly state anything about v.e.e. at that very page.) So, original synthesis is written all over your edit in big shinny letters.
The sources from the 1920s are too old to warrant serious consideration.
However, this is disputed. Atheist New Testament scholar James Crossley[8], liberal theologian John Robinson[9], and biblical scholar Craig Evans all date at least one of the gospels pre-70 AD.
Again, who draws the inference that a pre-70 AD dating precludes v.e.e.? It is you alone. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:25, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
@JimboBuckets99: Help me out here. What am I missing? Nothing in my edit says anything any which way about whether or not Mark is or isn't v.e.e. My comment was about the reference in Luke being a v.e.e. One more time Tgeorgescu. I'll put it in bold for you one more time: my comment was about Luke. If you had a problem with what I said about Mark, you could've rephrased it instead of deleting my entire edit.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rusdo (talk • contribs)
Mark or Luke: I don't care about that, either. What I care is that you alone are drawing the inferences instead of summarizing what full professors from reputable universities have written. And, of course, Luke and Matthew copied from Mark, that's the mainstream view. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
But that's my point exactly. That was the point of my addition. Luke copied Mark's phrasing and altered it to fit the events that occurred. That is a v.e.e. This is what is discussed in the sources that I cited. Again, I'm not seeing what the issue is here. Rusdo (talk) 02:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
You were trying to peddle the POV that those verses from Luke or Mark aren't v.e.e. And you chose WP:SYNTH as the means to proclaim your POV.
WP:CITE 1 (one) recent WP:RS by a full professor from a reputable university and we're done arguing. But, no, you don't want that: you want to push your POV through WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Tgeorgescu (talk) 03:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Tgeorgescu, could you provide a diff that shows where Rusdo implied in any way that either the verses from Luke or Mark would not be v.e.e.? I've been looking a bit into this, and it appears to me like you may be chasing a ghost. It seems that their concern is rather that there is a minority scholarly view which dates Mark to slightly before 70 CE, and that they would like WP to reflect this important nuance. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 03:11, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
As Mary Ann Beavis argued, a pre-70 AD dating of any NT gospel is irrelevant to the article Vaticinium ex eventu, since neither of the two sides of such debate denies that the "prediction" of the destruction of the Temple is v.e.e. So, I'm not concerned with a post-70 AD dating I'm not concerned with a pre-70 AD dating, since both are irrelevant to the article. A pre-70 AD dating is a red herring in respect to our article. Rusdo knows full well that they cannot WP:CITE any WP:Verifiable statement which denies that those verses are v.e.e. from the book of any recent mainstream Bible scholar. I don't think that one WP:RS with a clear, verifiable statement that those verses aren't v.e.e. would be too much to ask. Otherwise our encyclopedia would go to the dogs of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.
This is a verbatim quote from her work:
In Mark 13, Jesus similarly imparts revelations to his successors—and to the audience of Mark's time—about how the future will unfold after he has departed.
Since the discourse begins with a prophecy that the temple will be destroyed (13:2), and a war in Judea is foretold in 13:14—20, most scholars interpret it as referring to the events surrounding the destruction of the temple in AD 70, although there is vigorous debate as to whether the apocalypse was composed during the first Jewish war (AD 66—70), or shortly afterward. Either way, it belongs to a time when Jerusalem was either about to be desolated or had already been razed. On either interpretation, Jesus's prophecies concerning the horrors to befall Jerusalem constitute a vaticinium ex eventu—a prophecy after the event—directed to the Markan community, which is concerned by alarming events taking place in Judea and is vulnerable to being "led astray" (13:6). The intent of the discourse IS not so much to convey esoteric information as to reassure the audience of Mark's time that, although events seem to be spinning out of control, God is still in charge of history (cf. Lane 1974, 446; Moloney 2002, 250-51).
And the academic consensus is that the gospels of Luke and Matthew were even later than the gospel of Mark. So, if the point is made for Mark, it also applies to Luke and Matthew, who copied from Mark.
Diffs which make their intention clear: [3] and [4] (they have already admitted they're the IP). Tgeorgescu (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
^Telford, William R. Biblica, vol. 88, no. 1, 2007, pp. 131–135. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/42614756.
^Telford, William R. Biblica, vol. 88, no. 1, 2007, pp. 131–135. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/42614756.
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Closed. There are at least two problems with this filing. First, the other editors have not been notified here. That could be remedied. Second, the amount of verbiage at the article talk page is far too much for any likelihood of a resolution. I advise all of the editors to take a 48-hour break from the talk page, and then come back and each post 200 words. Otherwise this will wind up at WP:ANI and at least one editor will be blocked for at least 24 hours, which might result in the same cooling-off period. Breathe, rest, and come back and be concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
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Been having a content dispute here for a while, after about 2 years of participation in related articles. A good chunk of the article has been rewritten after but we've been at an impasse for certain changes. I've brought up my disputes in some places and with some users. They generally agreed but the subject is quite esoteric so they're not necessarily involved in the talk page, however I just had input from WP:3O and I think it's far more readable than the rest of the already massive talk page, so you can just get the gist of it from the 3O section: Talk:Kaworu_Nagisa#Third_Opinion
Briefly mentioning my disputes here, relevant diff:
Deletion of long descriptions of individual scenes from early episode drafts, compensated with mention of influence in spin-off works
Removal of fan speculation on the character being based on a third party despite explicit denial by creators. Source for it is a fanbook.
Mention of author statements on ambiguity, open-endedness, value of intepretation etc.
Removal of a joke made by the assistant director, that is even (partly) misattributed
Balancing of openly non-neutral sources with some cultural context.
Statement on the character's reception by a voice actor instead of the same third party's praise used thrice
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I'd ask if editors could provide input and adjust and/or remove what they think is unnecessary as I believe my edits will probably get reverted again as there hasn't really been any consensus. Potentially this might need more arbitration.
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Kaworu Nagisa discussion
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2021
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Jojoju1998 on 16:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC).
Closed for multiple reasons. First, and perhaps most significant is that DRN almost never successfully resolves this kind of dispute with this many parties. What's needed is a well-crafted request for comments, not DRN. Second, there is an ANI filing in process in regard to issues arising out of this dispute and DRN does not accept cases when that's the case. Third (and this is getting pretty picky) but the filing party, Jojoju1998, has offered to do private mediation at the article talk page. While that's not a formal type of dispute resolution, it is a legitimate one and DRN does not accept cases where other forms of DR are pending. Let me editorially note, however, that the kind of private mediation that the filing party is attempting is generally unwise because the mediator does not have the control over the mediation process that the mediation policy gives in other circumstances, but it's particularly unwise in this particular case because the filing party had already joined in the dispute as a participant before making the offer to mediate. That puts their neutrality into question and a mediator's neutrality is about all they have to trade upon. No, what that discussion needs is a RFC. If discussions there cannot formulate one to everyone's satisfaction, then DRN might be of assistance is resolving just that narrow issue of RFC formulation and this case may be refiled for that purpose. Finally, this is not a reason this case is being closed, but the filing party should note that it was their obligation to notify all the parties by posting a notice on their individual user talk pages. If this case is refiled, that must be done. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:52, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
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So It started with the Death of Vice President Walter Mondale. Someone must have added his death to the overall death list for 2021. But then there was a dispute on the talk page about wheter or not Mondale, or any American Politican should be included if they're internationally famous or not. Then other people accused each other of Americanism Bias, Racism, and it got ugly. Ad hominems are being thrown around, slander. There's not alot of agreement going arond.
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(Proposed new guidelines for inclusion of politicians in Deaths), (Walter Mondale & other Vice Presidents/Deputy leaders)
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I am hoping that you guys can resolve the dispute and hopefully calm things down. There seems to be differing ideas on what figure gets included on a death list and who does not. And I believe we need you guys to go in and create compromise list of standards for any figure to be included so that we can all calm down afterwards.
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2021 discussion
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Andres Oppenheimer
Filed by BettinareyC on 10:27, 26 April 2021 (UTC).
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
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Hello, I am making valid edits to this page: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Oppenheimer
There are two users reverting my edits EVERY SINGLE TIME - for no reason. They have now reported/blocked me FOR NO REASON! These users are: Edslov and Pepi003
Please review my edits, they are absolutely valid, no reason to block me or the edits. Please help.
I can't add a comment on the 'talk' page because Ive been blocked.
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Please revise and accept my edits. The last version I edited that Edslov reverted (and then blocked me for). They are perfectly valid edits, valid information that enhanced the previous version of the page.
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Andres Oppenheimer discussion
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This occurred on Spanish Wikipedia. I recommend closing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
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Closed. The filing party has listed some of the applicable editors and not others, and has not notified any of the editors (although two of the other editors have replied). This case is closed without prejudice. The filing party should resume discussion on the article talk page, and may file a new case request, correctly listing and notifying all of the editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I am concerned that the Manosphere article largely overstates its case that all these wildly different groups are linked, and that it relies heavily on implied group blame. For example, Father's Rights groups seeking fairer child custody arrangements are implicated in terrorism committed by individuals from other groups (such as Incels), and both are then (somehow) tangentially linked to the Far Right. The Far Right connection is especially unclear. It's also odd that Incels (who are upset that they can't have sex) are said to be fundamentally the same as father's rights groups (who deal with the fallout from broken relationships with children). This all seems very POV, and there are no cited examples of a Father's Rights group killing anyone, supporting terrorism, using sexist rhetoric, or doing anything illegal. It is odd that the article freely conflates them with Neo Nazis.
At the current time, the research provided points to all of the links between these various groups being no more than a theory - or a broad category association (like 'foodtypes', or 'animals'). Sources show little to no real overlap of the communities that would justify such strong wording on the article. There does not seem to be any real statistical analysis of sexism or calls to violence in the sources, and none of the citations I have read link to any. As of yet, the only hard data provided to me is a word count conducted on some of the communities that doesn't take context into account. Meaning the word 'rape' could be used to talk about personal victimhood, victimhood of another, the crime in general, farming (the word rapeseed would trigger it), a wish to commit the crime, and so on.
Considering this, is seems odd that adding phrases such as 'loose connection' or 'slight overlap' to the article are so contentious. Especially as editors have stated that the apparent overlap is small and at the fringes.
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I think wording should be changed to reflect the idea that the Manosphere is an academic theory rather than a fact. This seems to be far more in line with the level of proof the citations offer. Also, I am concerned that the page heavily cites the book Kill All Normies - which has been accused of "sloppy sourcing" and possible plagiarism. I think it should be removed.
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As I've stated on the article talk page, we should stick to what published RSes say. TiggyTheTerrible has not provided any sources that describe the manosphere concept as merely a theory. They do not appear to have done even a cursory check of the cited sources' own citations, instead glibly dismissing them as ideological (which doesn't mean unreliable). Their statement that the groups within the manosphere are wildly different is evidently their own original research. Their other claims are equally unfounded, as GorillaWarfare has explained.As far as I know no one has disputed the phrases loose connection or slight overlap, nor has anyone tried adding them. In fact several of the cited sources describe the manosphere as a "loose confederation" or "group of loosely associated websites" etc. I have no idea if the same is true of "slight overlap", which again looks like original research. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by GorillaWarfare
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I won't go into a ton of detail here since I have already gone into such detail at the talk page. However, Tiggy has shown either a lack of familiarity with our RS policy or a refusal to abide by it, demanding that editors satisfyarbitrary and, in this case, impossible demands for "hard data" to establish a well-established fact, which is that "manosphere" is a widely-used term for these communities, and that the communities are disparate but united by common threads of anti-feminism, misogyny, and masculism.
They are also repeating here their frustrating habit of straw man argumentation, which I've already noted on the article talk page, but which can be observed in their claims that "Incels... are said to be fundamentally the same as father's rights groups" (not a claim made in the article) and "the article freely conflates [father's rights groups] with Neo Nazis" (the article does not even mention neo-Nazis).
As for Kill All Normies, this is a new concern of theirs which they have not discussed at the talk page, or else I would reply there: it is a middling source for sure, and not of the same caliber as the academic sources that are primarily used, but I disagree that it should be dismissed outright. The allegation of plagiarism appears to have been retracted by the publication that made it. I will also note that the book is not used as the sole source for any statement in the article. GorillaWarfare(talk) 11:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Regarding "loose connection" and "slight overlap", I agree that this is the first I'm hearing this suggestion, but "loose connection" is relatively similar to how Ging describes them ("loose confederacy of interest groups"). Like Sangdeboeuf, I would be more concerned about the "slight overlap" statement without sourcing to support how many people are or have been members of multiple groups. The only source that immediately comes to mind on overlap (or lack thereof) is not a great one, as it is only a preprint of an article slated to be presented at a June 2021 conference, and it is primary research, but Ribeiro, Manoel Horta; Blackburn, Jeremy; Bradlyn, Barry; et al. (April 8, 2021). "The Evolution of the Manosphere Across the Web". arXiv:2001.07600v5 [cs.CY]. shows non-negligible historical overlap and migration between manosphere communities. GorillaWarfare(talk) 13:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
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Manosphere discussion
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I have mentioned this to TiggyTheTerrible, but they've included the wrong Mohammad here. The user who was signing their posts as Mohammad, until it was pointed out that this might lead to confusion between them and the other user, is actually User:Saint.Helena.Tristen.Da.Cunha.and.Asuncion. SHTDCA was sitebanned by the community, so will not be able to participate here. Feel free to remove this comment once that's been rectified to keep this section small. GorillaWarfare(talk) 11:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Relief requested not within scope of DRN (or Wikipedia, for that matter). Moreover, filing editor has no edits at the article page despite having said that they have discussed the issue. Indeed, there has been no recent extensive discussion about this at the talk page, which also fails to satisfy the requirements for filing here at DRN. If the participants in this discussion feel that they need dispute resolution, one of them can ask for it after resuming the discussion at the talk page. (And notify the other parties, which the filing party did not do.) — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:27, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
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This article has 3 edits! FIRST EDIT:Franklin child prostitution ring allegations, SECOND EDIT:Franklin child prostitution ring allegations/Archive 2, THIRD EDIT: Franklin child prostitution ring allegations/Archive 3
The author of this article states the case of Paul A. Bonacci v. Lawrence E. King was a hoax when in fact Paul A. Bonacci was awarded 1 million dollars which is not stated on this page about this trial. The sensitive subject of the government trying to cover up government pedophilia is reintroduced by the author trying to cover up all facts of this case. Anew author of this page is urgently needed, someone with above average journaling and referencing skills is needed for this most sensitive subject. This is a controversy and should have references to this fact.
In this article, there is omission of material from: a book by a journlist who investigated the case for 9 years [8]; an article in a reliable news outlet endorsing the book [9]; a book by a state senator who was an attourney in the case [10]; a documentary, Who Took Johnny [11]; a documentary, "Conspiracy of Silence", by Yorkshire Television [12]; the fact that Bonacci won civil damages from King after the district court judge heard corroborating testimony, where he decided on a $1 million amount; a viewer phone-in poll by Omaha television station KETV channel 7 which showed a 10-1 viewer dissatisfaction of the grand jury’s report, with over 3000 responses; Episode 5 of the podcast Sword and Scale [13]. Is there any possibility that any of this material could be added to the article? Autonova (talk) 23:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
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Talk:Franklin child prostitution ring allegations
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Please have a top journalist rewrite this article on this most sensitive subject who will include all information and resources available on this subject. This is huge controversy about government cover up that continues to this day. Statements in this article currently are that this lawsuit is a hoax and omits the fact that the alleger was compensated, and references to the controversy were never stated. Please have someone rewrite this article who will take the time to include all facts.
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Franklin child prostitution ring allegations discussion
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Closed. The discussion on the article talk page has hardly been enough to resolve the dispute, and the filing party has not really been trying to discuss so much as demanding compliance. Also, the filing party has not notified the other editors. The filing party is a single-purpose account who has showed up in the past day to make this demand (unless they have been editing under a different account name, of course). Disruptive editing, and this dispute is disruptive although not otherwise important, can be reported at WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I`m trying to correct what I see as an obvious grammatical error in the lead which reads Chauvin is an American former police officer and I believe should read former American police officer..the Wikipedia article on adjectives Adjectives#order..Oxford..Cambridge..every online dictionary I`ve looked at as well as every English class I`ve taken over the last 50 years would back me up on this.
I`m guessing this has something to do with the word American and that somehow not emphasizing it is unpatriotic or subversive but that is just speculation on my part..nothing could be further from the truth..I`m just trying to fix what I see as an obvious mistake..if it were a typo or a spelling error which from my point of view wouldn`t be much different I would just change it but I know if I do it will be reverted.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
This is a grammatical error nothing else...if it were a typo or a spelling mistake I would just change it but if I do it will be reverted..somewhere in Wikipedia there has to be policy regarding issues like this.
That being said I have no interest in editing Wikipedia articles..I only logged in as it is the only way I can access this page..it`s just something that popped out as it is topical..keeping what I see as obvious writing faux pas in Wikipedia detract from it`s credibility and relevance.
Summary of dispute by Sundayclose
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Summary of dispute by Bagumba
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Summary of dispute by MelanieN
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Summary of dispute by Volteer1
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Summary of dispute by Special:Contributions/67.188.1.213
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Derek Chauvin discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Forrestgump420 You have been told that putting "former" where you feel it should be suggests that Chauvin is a "former American" and not a "former police officer". Chauvin has not been (and cannot be) stripped of his citizenship. It has nothing to do with patriotism or subversion. 331dot (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
"American former police officer" is a fine construction. BD2412T 23:25, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. There has been no discussion on an article talk page, only on the talk page of an editor. Discussion on an article talk page prior to discussion at this noticeboard is mandatory; it is not merely a nice-to-have. It is not necessary to consider whether the filing editor is either a long-term abusive vandal, another vandal masquerading as the best-known-for IP, or a good-faith unregistered editor, because there has not been discussion on an article talk page. The filing party is advised to discuss on the article talk page, if they are a good-faith unregistered editor, or to register an account. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I attached a tag for a citation to "opinions are mixed" -- This was reverted repeatly by Ritchie333, who is now threatening me with a "community ban" for questioning their action.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Leave the citation tag or delete the content it refers to on M11 Link Road and warn Ritchie333 that editors are allowed to question sources without being banned.
Summary of dispute by Ritchie333
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M11 Link Road discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. The filing editor has not listed the other editors, let alone notifying the other editors. The filing party should resume discussion on the article Talk Page . Robert McClenon (talk) 08:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
There has been and ongoing debate in the antifa (United States) section. About a week ago I added under the Public reaction section three articles, one from Stanley G. Payne, R. R. Reno and Paul Gottfried. Some have objected and we have not been able to come to a disagreement. Some found that the sources should not be added and I found those arguments unconvincing. We have been unable to come to an agreement. I hope that a third party can come in and give their thoughts. Thanks.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I believe that all three or at the very least Stanley Payne's article should be allowed to stay up/ added although Reno's should be moved from academics.
Antifa (United States) discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This case is on hold until the source in question is discussed and a consensus reached at the RS noticeboard. If that does not clear up this case- any involved editor may request this case be re-opened once that has been completed. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:21, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
There has been a large amount of contention over the in line attribution of Xinhua for the sake of a claim made by the Chinese Embassy. While another editor and I see this as a normal usage of an in line attribution and think it's an appropriate and self-evident use of the source, there are some editors who have been deleting the in-line attribution and reverting it when added again. The talk page has ultimately led nowhere and even raised the question of deleting the section the in-line attribution might go in. Ultimately, I would say the issue is whether or not it is appropriate to use Xinhua for claims made by a Chinese embassy with in-line attribution, specifically in regards to the words of an Imam for the mosque that were posted by the Chinese Embassy.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Extensive discussion has occurred on Talk:Id_Kah_Mosque. Another editor and I have attempted to discuss how Xinhua's reliability allows for the in-line attribution with another editor who is against it extensively but there has been no conclusion.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I think a clarification on whether or not Xinhua is appropriate for claims made specifically by the Chinese Government (with in-line attribution) as well as the appropriateness of including the information (or excluding it for that matter) would help to resolve the dispute.
Summary of dispute by Horse Eye's Back
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"the words of an Imam for the mosque that were posted by the Chinese Embassy” is not the same thing as a claim made by the Chinese Embassy... We can not use Xinhua for a non-government BLP statement in this context. Please actually give an overview of the dispute and the policies/guidelines involved. Also this is the wrong noticeboard, this belongs either at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard or Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:05, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Thucydides411
This is a relatively minor story about the Id Kah mosque, which is perhaps the most famous mosque in China, and which has existed for many centuries. US government media (Radio Free Asia) made a claim about a plaque with scripture being removed from the mosque. The imam of the mosque has now given multiple video interviews in Chinese government media refuting US government media's claims about the plaque (the imam showed that it had been moved to a different part of the mosque) and about the mosque more generally. Some editors want to present the claims by US government media, but keep the refutation by Chinese government media out of the article. This is a relatively minor story in the first place, so it does not have to be covered at all in the article. However, if it is covered, both sides must be presented. We cannot include dubious claims made by US government media, but then censor refutations given by a major figure involved in the story (i.e., the imam) because they appear in Chinese government media. There are two options here: balanced coverage, or no coverage at all. A one-sided, heavily censored depiction of the story is not acceptable. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:33, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Mikehawk10
I don't think the characterization of the dispute at the top of this DR request is entirely accurate. The question doesn't appear to be if Xinhua (RSP Listing) is reliable for a claim made by the Chinese embassy, but rather whether the inclusion of this particular claim constitutes due weight and if the claim is fundamentally describing a Chinese government stance. There are reliable sources that have reported information contrary to the statement, and I believe that there might also be BLP issues (as descrbed by Horse Eye's Back on the talk page) regarding using this reporting to describe the particular statement of an Imam within China. Xinhua, after all, cannot be trusted to report in a reliable or disinterested manner on these sorts of issues and it hastakenanactiverole in state propaganda campaigns in the past. For this reason, I would strongly advise against the inclusion of the content as lacking both due weight and reliable sourcing, unless there are reliable sources that have reported this quote. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Id Kah Mosque discussion
Do not discuss on this page until a mediator opens the case. Copying this discussion to the article talk page}
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on the article talk page if necessary. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources: "There is consensus that Xinhua is generally reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation. Xinhua is also generally reliable for the views and positions of the Chinese government and its officials."
As far as I understand, the usage of Xinhua in this particular claim is about the statement of the "still-active imam". Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, Xinhua is reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation. In my opinion, there's a good reason for thinking that Xinhua's reporting on this subject might entail the propaganda of the Chinese government, due to the political situation in Xinjiang. In that case, Xinhua is generally reliable for the views and positions of the Chinese government and its officials, however, an active imam in the Id Kah Mosque, whose statements are being conveyed by Xinhua, is not a member of the Chinese government nor its official. Therefore, Xinhua is not used in this case to report on the views of the Chinese government and its officials and it might contain propaganda of the Chinese government. In conclusion, I think this particular report of Xinhua shouldn't be used in the article about Id Kah Mosque. --Governor Sheng (talk) 21:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
The actual report is to be used to report on the Chinese Embassy's claims as presented in a video (where you can clearly see and interview with the imam) with in-line attribution, not to make claims about his life. Specifically these claims are being presented by a part of the Chinese Government, so I don't see how referring to those claims would be an issue. Deku link (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
There are due weight concerns about the inclusion of the content, not just sourcing concerns. There's also a community consensus that Radio Free Asia (RSP entry) is generally reliable for this sort of reporting (although attribution may be appropriate), whereas there is also community consensus that Xinhua is not reliable to report dispassionately when the Chinese government has a stake. It's not clear to me that including Xinhua's reporting on this would constitute due weight if reliable sources aren't covering the Imam's statement.
Additionally, there are a multitude of sources that describe the transformation of the mosque into a tourist location, aside from the generally reliable Radio Free Asia. These include The Independent and The Globe and Mail, each of which are currently cited in the article. AFP (via Arab News) also describes the Mosque as having been closed to prayer, with entrance to the mosque requiring the purchase of a tourist ticket. The Christian Science Monitor (RSP entry) also reports that the prayer times for the mosque are "just for show", that prayer at the mosque was forbidden for foreigners, and that the mosque "is largely deserted apart from Chinese tourists". In light of this, the inclusion of Xinhua's reporting seems less and less worthy of inclusion. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Radio Free Asia is not reliable for this story. The RfC result on Radio Free Asia was that attribution is appropriate for geopolitically charged issues, noting that RFA is US government media. One of the issues that that motivated this decision is the fact that RFA has pushed disinformation about the CoVID-19 death toll in Wuhan. RFA has pushed speculation that as many as 150,000 people may have died in Hubei province (the scientific estimate is that approximately 4500 people died of CoVID-19 in the province).
The Christian Science Monitor piece you quote does not claim that the mosque is closed for prayer. It says that an anonymous foreign businessman claims he was told the mosque is closed for prayer. There's a difference there (reported speech versus a factual claim by the newspaper). The Arab News article that you quote likewise does not claim that the mosque is closed for prayer. It says that one anonymous tourist claims he was told that he had to purchase a ticket to enter the mosque and that as a tourist, he wasn't allowed to pray during his visit. Again, this is very far from a newspaper making a sweeping claim that prayer is banned at the mosque. That would be an extraordinary claim, and there's absolutely no support for it in either of these two articles.
Xinhua has published a video interview with the imam who runs the mosque. He responds directly to Radio Free Asia's claim that a plaque has been removed by showing - on camera - that the plaque is still displayed at the mosque. There's no doubt that the imam actually made these claims, because he made them on camera. It's fine to attribute the claims to the imam and note that he made them in an interview with Xinhua, a state media agency. However, presenting only US government media's claims, but censoring a refutation by the guy who actually runs the mosque, would be ridiculous.
This is a minor enough story that we don't have to present it at all. But if we do present it, we cannot do so in a one-sided manner. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Statement
I am willing to mediate this, however- I truly believe that this would be better solved on the RS noticeboard or with a WP:RFC rather than a mediated discussion- would any of the editors like to try that first? Then come back here if those two don't work out? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I’m not sure if a WP:RFC would solve this dispute. I have asked other editors informally about the situation and several recommended I go directly here due to an inability to reach a conclusion on talk pages even with the intervention of other users for comment. Deku link (talk) 18:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
There is a big difference between asking informally and opening an RFC- RFC's are advertised and pull in more users. And the RS noticeboard is the best place anyway. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
This has partly already made the rounds at RS, but I was simply following the advice of more experienced editors. I'll leave this up to other people in the dispute resolution. Deku link (talk) 21:12, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
If this specific use of sources has already been discussed- please link to the conversation and outcome as that would go a long way towards clearing this up. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
This specific use of sources hasn’t been discussed because to do so would be redundant. The usage is already supported by the general conclusions made in the Xinhua discussion here.Deku link (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
That appears to be inaccurate... In fact it appears to be completely backwards. The consensus is question is crystal clear: "There is consensus that Xinhua News Agency is generally reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the Government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation. For subjects where the Chinese government may be a stakeholder, the consensus is almost unanimous that Xinhua can not be trusted to cover them accurately and dispassionately; some editors favour outright deprecation because of its lack of editorial independence. There is no consensus for applying any one single label to the whole of the agency. Caution should be exercised in using this source, extremely so in case of extraordinary claims on controversial subjects or biographies of living people. When in doubt, try and find better sources to use in its stead; use inline attribution if you must use it. It is nonetheless a generally reliable source for views and positions of the Chinese government and officials.” I agree with you that taking this to RSN would be redundant, but I disagree on why. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
And that’s exactly why I think the discussion should be here. Deku link (talk) 18:22, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm sorry- I'm again going to refer this specific situation to the RS noticeboard- this is a grey area- it is not clearly BLP, it is not clearly government propaganda- I would like you all to take this specific situation to the RS noticeboard so instead of assuming one way or another- there is clear direction. It will give a clear yes or no. At the moment- any compromise reached here would be immediately overturned by anyone who wanted to take this to the RS noticeboard. I'm going to place this dispute on hold until that is done at this point. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Filing editor failed to provide any publication information about the source they wish to add. At this point, we have to assume this book is not a WP:RS since no information on title or author can be found online, and editor can provide no information on its publication, ISBN, anything. IN addition- other editor has declined to participate. Filing editor is encouraged to read WP:RS, and visit the reliable source noticeboard if they have any further concerns about this specific source. If publication information is found at a later time and the editor would like to re-file this case here, they are welcome to do so. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
1: Multiple users have been deleting sourced information or heavily modifying it in ways that does not reflect the content of the sources cited. Recently a user deleted over 32,000 characters of content and requested discussion. On the talk page they explained this edit by claiming that it was justified because the sources were "not authoritative". Since I believe that the sources I cited are reliable, I need another user who is knowledgeable in WP's policies to review the dispute. I hope that they can confirm that the sources cited in the article are reliable, and that broad deletions and modifications of sourced information like this should not take place.
The only exception to the general reliability of the sources is that there is a Burmese-language book that I cited six times in the article in places where I could not find a more reliable English-language source, but I believe the information cited by that book should remain until it can be contradicted by a better source. I would like a neutral editor to confirm that this is a reasonable interpretation of WP's guidelines.
2: There is an "undue weight" tag on the section on Aung San's assassination that I believe is inappropriate, but another user insists on it being there. In the talk section the user justifies the tag by stating that the section discusses information that contradicts the official Burmese government's narrative of the event, and therefore represents "conspiracy theories". I believe the tag is inappropriate because it is normal for scholars, after discussing the official Burmese government's perspective, to discuss the wide variety of observations made by many of the people who knew Aung San, and by reliable news sources, which claim that the official Burmese government's narrative is incomplete or incorrect. The section is reliably sourced to numerous authors, so I do not think this information should be either labelled as controversial or omitted.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
1: Confirm to all parties that sourced information should not be deleted or heavily modified without either reviewing the sources cited or presenting alternative sources.
2: Review and make a decision regarding the "undue weight" tag in the article regarding whether it should be there (obviously I believe that it should not be).
Summary of dispute by Stress theorist
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Ferox Seneca's edits are highly ideological, biased, and focused on fringe theories WP:FRINGE in a way not supported by high-quality academic sources. I urge him to do slowly, discussing the issue one by one. But he insists on massively modifying the entire article with a 32kb edit. The quality of the edit is so poor that it would find a hard time justifying that in a blog post. 11 citations to a book called The Political Leaders Whose Names Will Live Forever which neither I nor my dozens of friends in Myanmar could confirm its existence (Most likely a self-published book by an over-the-counter publisher). Nobody knows the author or her reputation. He added massive paragraphs (often copied in verbatim) which allege that Gen. Ne Win killed Aung San. No serious scholar of Burmese history (Thant Myint-U, Michael Aung Thwin, Robert Taylor) entertains such theories. It's so absurd that you can not find it in any major history book about Myanmar. Other than that, of his 32kb addition, the remainder is off-topic (for example, writing two massive paragraphs about the Rangoon Bombing) which has been taken off.
It's also wrong to say that other editors have completely reversed his contributions. Only highly controversial edits have been reversed. Much of his addition, for example in the Early Life section, remain. Ferox Seneca's insistence that everything, no matter how controversial, must remain is displaying signs of ownership. Stress theorist (talk) 22:25, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Aung San discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Comment First- please notify all editors of this discussion on their own talk page. All involved editors should be included- even IP users. 2nd- before we discuss this- please provide publication information on the source in question- I've searched online and I cannot find any evidence this source exists- not even a Worldcat entry. This does seem to indicate it is not Reliable. And if its not a WP:RS this discussion is unnecessary because any information supported only by this source cannot be included. Once you have notified the involved editors and provided publication information- I will be happy to mediate this discussion. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
2nd Volunteer Comment I see a notification was placed on Stress theorist (talk·contribs)'s talk page, and then was removed. So, That is a pretty good indication they do not wish to participate here. At this point- I'm just going to referFerox Seneca (talk·contribs) to the Reliable Source noticeboard. As of now, you have not proven your source to be reputable- so by policy, any and all information supported only by this source should be removed until that source is proven reliable. The RS noticeboard will help you with that. But since you have declined to give publication information- I cannot do more than recommend you remove changes attributed to that book. I will close this dispute in 24 hours unless something changes. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. This dispute has already been dealt with, and was discussed and closed on the article talk page, and at the Teahouse, and at this noticeboard. The discussion at the article talk page should be treated as if it had been an RFC; it established that there was consensus against the filing editor, to keep the current wording. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The first sentence of the Derek Chauvin article is grammatically incorrect and should read former American police officer not American former police officer..this goes against every reference regarding the order of adjectives and I`ve read most of the accepted primary sources on this including the Wikipedia article regarding the order of adjectives Adjective#order which states the order as quantity, opinion, size, weight, age, temperature, humidity, shape, color, pattern, origin, material qualifier/purpose which describe which is a given. This clearly puts former (age) well before American (origin) in the order of description..adjectives are supposed to go from general, and for good reason, in this case former to specific in this case American then police then officer.
I am confused as to why this has become an issue..editor 67.188.1.213 doesn`t seem to have a problem with the Barney Frank or Frank Hill articles which are written correctly..this is not a stylist choice but accepted English...this is a simple grammatical error one step above a misspelling or a typo..it should have never been written this way in the first place and incomprehensible to me why it would be challenged.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Derek ChauvinTalk:Derek Chauvin#first sentance (there are two of them..mine is the second..I`ve tried to reason with these editors including what I view a personal attract which I don`t feel comfortable with..I don`t know what else I can do..I have not tried to edit the article as I was trying to get a consensus.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
As I`ve said this is a simple grammatical error although I understand the other editors don`t see it that way...I`ve been writing all life including 44 years as an adult and well as 12 years of primary school..I know what I`m talking about...the easiest way to resolve this is referring it to an accredited English instructor or a professional writer
Summary of dispute by 67.188.1.213
One phrasing is awkward, the other is ambiguous. The awkward one isn't very awkward. The ambiguous one isn't very ambiguous. This matter can only be resolved by discussion and consensus leading to an entry in the Wikipedia manual of style. There is no objectively correct answer, and personally I don't have a preference. For whatever it's worth, I am an award-winning professional non-fiction writer and editor. 67.188.1.213 (talk) 20:08, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Sundayclose
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Bagumba
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by MelanieN
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I can't believe this is being brought here. The complaining party has insisted, repeatedly, that Chauvin must be described as a "former American police office" rather than an "American former police officer." Multiple people have disagreed and have tried to explain that "former American" is incorrect, because it suggests that he is no longer an American. Chauvin is still an American; he was formerly a police officer. But the OP seems obsessed with their argument which has definitively failed to reach consensus (see here for example) - and which is simply wrong on its face. A warning or even a sanction (topic ban from Derek Chauvin?) might be in order. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Aoidh
This is the second time User:Forrestgump420 has brought this to DRN. He is WP:FORUMSHOPPING in an attempt to get the answer he wants, despite the fact that there is a clear consensus against him. He started a discussion at the Teahouse and another here at DRN, neither of which gave him the answer he wanted. The fact of the matter is that "former" modifies another word, and is not a standalone "age adjective" as User:Forrestgump420 is claiming. "Former American police officer" suggests that he is a former American, which is not the case. At best it introduces unnecessary ambiguity that the current wording does not. He is an American. He is a former police officer. He is an American former police officer. Just as they are "American former prisoners of war" and not "Former American prisoners of war," User:Forrestgump420's suggested change is not an improvement and is not "grammatically correct" no matter how much he insists it is, especially as he has provided no evidence of his claim that "former" is an age adjective that must be placed in a particular order regardless of what it's actually modifying. - Aoidh (talk) 19:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Deriek Chauvin discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Forrestgump420 Chauvin was formerly a police officer. He's still American. Therefore "American former police officer". Your pedantry would be better applied to spelling his name correctly, Derek Chauvin. Cabayi (talk) 14:25, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. The other editor has been blocked for three days for edit-warring. Resume normal editing including discussion on the article talk page when the other editor returns from block. If there is disagreement about article content, a new request can be filed here. Report edit-warring at an edit-warring noticeboard, but a better idea is to avoid edit-warring. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The other user in this dispute has gone against the agreement made in the Administrators' noticeboard.
An admin had stated they will "insist on a consensus to change the lead from its current wording" and two weeks later, with no consesus reached the other user in this dispute changed the wording of the page and the same sentence in the introduction.
The talk page has now reached a point where I am having to explain the word 'philosophy' is synonymous for 'ideology'. In addition the changes made by this user does not match the cited sources that were already agreed.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
1. An editor/admin can determine whether or not the user is violating rules.
2. An editor/admin can determine whether or not the user is engaging in an edit war.
3. An editor/admin can determine whether or not the user is going against the resolution in the Administrators' noticeboard.
Summary of dispute by Twozerooz
There were originally only 2 users (currently-active in discussion) who disagreed with the proposed edit (TFD and Erzan). Reviewing archived talk discussion shows the overwhelming majority of users in the broader community also agree. TFD has finally agreed now (He also 'Thanked' my edit), and so consensus has been reached.
Social democracy discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Question To be clear- we can mediate content disputes, we cannot address editor behavior. If you are looking for an outsiders opinion, I am happy to provide that. If you want help reaching a consensus- I'm also happy to mediate. If you want me to enforce any arbitration or ban a user- I cannot do that. Can you clarify what you are hoping for at this board? Also- on your notification on the other editor's talk page- you did not sign your comment, please make sure you are doing so for clarity please. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Erzan has a long history of this type of behaviour, including constant edit warring on numerous pages. I would hope that simply letting him know that consensus doesn't mean he personally has to sign off on an edit (since literally everyone else except him agrees on the talk page, ergo consensus has been reached) would be sufficient for him to cease his behaviour. --Twozerooz (talk) 14:25, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
@Nightenbelle It would be helpful if you and other admins came in to mediate. This dispute was brought to admin notice board before and admins already said the page should remain until there is a consesus. The three sources explain and talk about how social democracy is an economic philosphy/ideology and this user is disputing this. All I can do is request the user to check the cite sources to see but the user keeps saying they have and disagree then carry on editing the same sentence, the same sentence that brought us into a previous edit war.
The three sources do refer to social democracy as having an economic philosophy within socialism but the user is disputing this. Below are the sources for the disputed sentence.
The 1st source states "In terms of economic policy, social democrats believe strongly" [8]
The 2nd source staes "Socialism came to be heavily associated with the work of 19th century German economist" and "belief that the American economy treats people unfairly" [9]
The 3rd source states "It needs to rejoin its critique of the capitalist economy" [10]
Thereofre the three sources do talk about social democracy as having an approach/philosophy/ideology towards the economy. The other user in this dispute is saying the sources do not back this up but they do.
So I need outside support on this, thank you because otherwise it's the user and I going back and forth. Erzan (talk) 15:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Well... thats the thing- we arn't admins. We are volunteer editors like you. However- if Twozerooz is willing to discuss this- I'd be happy to mediate. Are all editors willing to participate? Nightenbelle (talk) 18:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed as not recently discussed. As the filing editor notes, there was discussion in March, which apparently resulted in consensus, but new editors are editing the article. They and the filing editor should resume discussion on the article talk page, where there has been no recent discussion. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, a new request can be filed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The article has a history of edit warring. I sought consensus, and after long discussions that can be found on the talk page of the article, interested editors agreed on the version dated 14:29, 3 April 2021. Unfortunately, two new editors are now removing parts of the article without addressing the points made in the talk page. I am not interested in getting an edit war started, but I won't accept the edits to be made (they involved removing sourced info)
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Any edits after the version with consensus (dated: 14:29, 3 April 2021) should be reverted and enforced by an administrator. Perhaps, the article needs to be protected. Otherwise, random editors will continue to feel free to remove parts of the article which they don't like even if it means removing reliable sources.
Summary of dispute by شاه عباس
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Al-Tabari discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. Case has sat idle for a week. Parties should feel free to file again, if needed. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 22:26, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I made edits removing Avi Arad's involvement with the creation of Marvel Studios, as Marvel Studios was created before Avi Arad joined the production company, and the reason why he left the company. Also, I made the edit to include the fact that David Maisel, not Kevin Feige, was the "creator" of the MCU. All these informations are sourced.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Make a decision regarding if the edits I'm proposing to make must be made.
Summary of dispute by TriiipleThreat
As seen in the talk page discussion, I am not entirely opposed to Newlamender's edits. I am, however, opposed to his complete erasing of a commonly held viewpoint by a plethora of reliable sources in favor of minority viewpoint taken from a primary source who may or may not have an agenda. I also have a problem with WP:SYN / WP:OR used to in these edits: taking information almost verbatim from source about one subject and applying it another.—TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:36, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Rcarter555
The sources the editor is using to claim that David Maisel is the "creator" of the MCU is a single source (and also leads to the question of what constitutes the "creator" of a film franchise).Rcarter555 (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Response to TriiipleThreat by Newtlamender
The complete erasing of information are due to contrary information that came from very reliable sources. That The Hollywood Reporter, one of the bigest entertaiment websites in the world, has a "agenda" for making journalism and publishing a profile about a least known person who worked at Marvel Studios, for me, seems as a conspiracy theory. TriiipleThreat's seems to be arguing that a common assumption (in this case, that Kevin Feige was the "creator" of the MCU) should be considered more relevant that a information published by a reliable website after talking with several sources, which I argue it should not. In regards to Avi Arad creating and the reason why he leaved Marvel Studios, TriiipleThreat itself has agreed that the information in the current page is wrong and should be removed, as seen in the talk page discussion, yet it is still there. — Newtlamender (talk) 16:57, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Response to Rcarter555 by Newtlamender
The source claims the journalist who wrote it talked with several sources to claim David Maisel had the idea of what it would become the MCU of interconnecting films and characters. What Rcarter555 says it's false.
Marvel Cinematic Universe discussion
@TriiipleThreat, Rcarter555, and Newtlamender: Hi, I'm MjolnirPants, a volunteer here, and I'd like to help you guys resolve this dispute. Can I get all three of you to let me know if I've summarized this dispute correctly?
From what I read, it seems that Newtlamender found a source which describes David Maisel as the "creator" of the MCU, and has replaced prior language and sources which cited Kevin Feige as the creator. TriiipleThreat and Rcarter555 both object to this change, with TriiipleThreat objecting mostly to the removal of the existing language.
Not only the removal of the existing language but also Newtlamender violating WP:SYN. For example in this edit: Newtlamender changed "Feige, a self-described "fanboy", envisioned creating a shared universe, just as creators Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had done with their comic books in the early 1960s." to "David Maisel, president and COO of Marvel Studios, envisioned creating a shared universe, just as creators Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had done with their comic books in the early 1960s". Newtlamender simply changed the subject of the sentence from Feige to Maisel despite the fact that the entire predicate of that sentence ("envisioned creating a shared universe, just as creators Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had done with their comic books in the early 1960s.") contains specific language sited to Boston.com, and not the THR article that Newtlamender cited. It should also be noted that discussion is still ongoing with several editors objecting to the wholesale replacement of the commonly accepted and verified veiwpoint that credits Feige as creator of the MCU with information taken from a single interview that Maisel gave to THR. The objections are based on WP:PRIMARY concerns that being an interview, the original material is too close to the subject. I have suggested instead of the completely replacing Feige as creator, that Newtlamender should offer an opposing veiwpoint of Maisel as creator. However, this too may raise concerns of giving WP:UNDUE weight to a minority viewpoint.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for answering my question. As to the issues of WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE, my goal here is to find language and sourcing that everyone can agree to, so we'll address that once everyone else has chimed in. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 14:49, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed as failed. One editor has not discussed at all, either on this noticeboard or the article talk page, and appears not to use talk pages or engage in discussion. The filing editor is advised to edit the article boldly, and, if reverted, either start a Request for Comments or report the non-collaborative editing at WP:ANI. In either case, they may notify me on my talk page, and I am willing to assist with an RFC if one is requested, or to support a request for a partial block if there is further reverting without discussing. That is about all that can be done if an editor does not discuss. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:31, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Hello. We've been having a discussion for a while but have hit an inpasse. I believe a big portion of the article was unbalanced and/or misrepresented, missing lots of information etc, breaking NPOV. As of now I still wish to remove some things I consider to be kruft, like overdescription of early drafts, disproven fan speculation and a misatributed joke. I also wish to include some other things to balance it out but the editor disagrees. Relevant diff. The talk page is massive, but you can ignore what's before the 3O section.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I'd ask if editors could provide input and adjust and/or remove what they think is unnecessary as I believe my edits will probably get reverted again despite mine and other opinions. Potentially this might need more arbitration.
Summary of dispute by Zusuchan
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
User TeenAngels1234 edited the article for Kaworu Nagisa, adding a substantial amount of material. There was too much material for Wikipedia (by contrast, the level of detail could be considered admissible in a fandom wiki), some of the material was misinterpreted and a lot of the material was not technically false, but worded and distributed in such a way as to (intentionally or not) invite misconceptions about the character Nagisa and his relationship to Shinji Ikari in at least the two most important works of the Evangelion franchise. FelipeFritschF tried to fix such mistakes, but wasn't met with an overly enthusiastic response when it came to addressing the largest issues and despite the support of other users like me and Sennecaster, TeenAngels1234 continues to appear reluctant in fixing his mistakes. Zusuchan (talk) 18:02, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by TeenAngels1234
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Kaworu Nagisa discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Note - Are there any specific questions about whether to remove any text from the article or add any text to the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
For removals, an exaggeratedly long description of individual scenes from discarded early drafts, a disproven fan speculation on the character being based on a non-staffer, and a misattributed joking comment. As for additions, I wanted to compensate with a mention of the drafts' influence in later works, a comment by the creator on ambiguity/intepretation, and one balancing some rather sensationalist claims by biased sources. The other editor thinks it's mostly OR. I've also asked about one critical reception here. This is largely following previous changes made from the initial rewrite and other users generally agreed. FelipeFritschF (talk) 05:21, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I'll just say I agree with Felipe's ideas about additions and removals for the Nagisa article. Zusuchan (talk) 09:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
First Statement by Moderator (Kaworu Nagisa)
I will act as the moderator. Please read and follow my usual ground rules. I will in particular remind you to be civil and concise, because too much of the previous discussion has been civil but not concise, and too long. Overly long statements do not explain what the author is trying to say. They may make the author feel better, but there are other ways to do that. Overly long statements may be collapsed, with a summary that they were too long, didn't read. (That phrase is sometimes used as a shorthand or code, but as a moderator I have occasionally collapsed overly long statements without reading them.) Comment on content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors. The purpose of content dispute resolution (which this is) is to improve the article. Since the discussion has been too lengthy in the recent past, I am asking each editor to list specific sections that they want to delete from the article or that they want to add to the article. Any statements that are not specific may be ignored. Do not reply to each other in the space for statements. You may reply to each other in the space for back-and-forth discussion (and I will not collapse statements there for being too long, but may ignore them). Each editor may list three specific changes that they want to make to the article. If the other editor disagrees, we will submit one or more Requests for Comments to the community. You may also ask short questions that I will try to answer. Remember that the reason for this discussion is to improve the article.
Robert McClenon (talk) 02:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
First Statements by Editors (Kaworu Nagisa)
Thank you for your attention. I'll focus on removals for now.
Drafts on Conception section: I'd like to delete their minutious and IMO puffery descriptions. They were made very early on, somewhat independently thus don't represent authorial intent too well. Creative process is described here [11][12][13] Their nature is already mentioned so describing individual scenes feels redundant. I've added sources explaining why they were rejected which were absent. To compensate, I pointed out elements that were reutilized in spin-offs.
The director was asked about basing the character on someone and denied it in ref #9, the character designer also in ref #19. Ikuhara is not a staffer. It's dispensable because it leads to larger misconceptions, easily making the reader assume he was based on him, and simply adding "X and X have denied basing the character off anyone" would be pointless. Source is a fanbook published 12 years after, of questionable reliability. There are similar speculations for other characters, it falls under WP:UNDUE.
Rebuild of Evagelion: assistant director Tsurumakidid not say this, the 1st half. It was said by the interviewer, another non-staffer. 2nd half is a joke making fun of the character, not be taken as an actual intention on the creator’s parts. The translator says the same. Context is several other jokes, part of a laid back interview, absent from related articles. This happened before. FelipeFritschF (talk) 07:28, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Second Statement by Moderator (Kaworu Nagisa)
One editor, User:FelipeFritschF, has stated that they wish to remove certain portions of the article. There may be other changes to the article that they wish to make, but they have listed three of them because I said to list three changes. The other two editors, User:Zusuchan, and User:TeenAngels1234, have not replied. We will wait for them for another 24 hours. If there is no response, I will put the case on hold and advise User:FelipeFritschF to edit the article boldly and see whether their edits stand, or whether there are objections or reverts. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:06, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Second Statements by Editors (Kaworu Nagisa)
There's a slight mistake here-I'm not actually a Wikipedia editor, but rather a third party brought on by FelipeFritschF to help talk with TeenAngels1234. I hold no interest in editing Wikipedia articles and my investment in this current matter is mostly due to having been asked to participate and a little bit due to a simple wish to avoid the creation of misunderstandings. I agree with Felipe's ideas, that's really all the substantial stuff I have to say. I apologize for any misunderstandings I may have created. Zusuchan (talk) 18:33, 6 May 2021(UTC)
I'd like to add that this is because he's one of the people I had consulted with along with translators etc initially. I also asked other WP editors for their input on it and three others generally agreed but did not get directly involved in the talk page, which you can see mentioned above. Also, I asked about a source that was removed more than once hereFelipeFritschF (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Third Statement by Moderator (Kaworu Nagisa)
In the absence of comments from TeenAngels1234, I am placing this discussion on hold, and the ground rule now is that User:FelipeFritschF may edit the article as proposed, boldly but not recklessly. If the other editor objects to any edits, discuss on the article talk page, and if that is inconclusive, I will reopen discussion here.
Robert McClenon (talk) 03:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I have made my initial edits there, and asked to take discussion here considering we had several stalemates before. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to note this here, if not please do remove this part. FelipeFritschF (talk) 06:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Well, I was entirely reverted with no discussion again, including a source 3 out of 4 people agreed with. Thoughts? FelipeFritschF (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
This happened several times before - even after input from other users (on and off the talk page) and a WP:3O. So I made just removals and inserted one source people agreed to as mentioned above and asked to discuss here as my previous attempts to get back on the TP were fruitless (besides the 3O which was also largely ignored), but those were reverted again and that was it. FelipeFritschF (talk) 00:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Fourth Statements by Editors (Kaworu Nagisa)
Fifth Statement by Moderator (Kaworu Nagisa)
This dispute resolution is a failure, because one editor is not participating at all. I am willing to handle this in one of two ways. First, User:FelipeFritschF can identify the edits that they want to make, and then an RFC can be used to approve the edits. An RFC is binding, and establishes consensus. Second, I can fail the dispute resolution, and then we can file a request at WP:ANI that User:TeenAngels1234 be partially blocked from Kaworu Nagisa.
Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to antagonize the other editor needlessly, and additionally I expect the article and other related ones will get more edits and views once the franchise's new film reaches the West, so it's probably better to establish some precedent as I have also collaborated with some other editors on those pages. I'd go with the former, unless that ANI request eventually becomes unavoidable. I'll have to wait some days before listing my proposals, however. Thank you for your attention. FelipeFritschF (talk) 04:28, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed for at least two reasons. First, the filing editor says that they have very little time to discuss this case. Dispute resolution is often time-consuming, and we cannot structure a discussion around minimizing the time spent by the parties. Second, this noticeboard is not the forum for a concern about whether Wikipedia is being censored or edited to reflect the positions of a foreign government. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The article described the outbreaks like that of Covid19 to be undisputed zoonotic, which I based on 2 links added with the comment "disputed". That a zoonotic origin is not the only possible reason is evident based on numerous publications and even the WHO itself does not rule out, that SarS-Cov2 is originating from a laboratory.
I therefore suggested to add the comment "disputed" in order to honor all current theories, but repeatedly got attacked and threatened for this change (WP:UNCIVIL).
Please offer your help in order to allow all views to be represented and different opinions not to be silenced in Wikipedia.
Thanks!
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Please review and suggest, how different opinions should be reflected in Wikipedia articles. Suggest to use a language and writing which does not exclude serious different opinions.
Summary of dispute by Robby.is.on
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Peter Daszak discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
General comment Sorry if this comment is in the wrong place, but to avoid wasting anyone's time, I'd like to point out that the filer was informed they had been brought to ANI before they opened this dispute but seems to have ignored the instruction at the top that the board doesn't accept disputes already under discussion at conduct dispute resolution forums. Nil Einne (talk) 13:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
General comment2 This may also be the wrong place, but for better visibility please provide link to the already existing dispute. PeterSweden (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Note - Rather than closing this case because it is also pending at WP:ANI, I am putting this case on hold here. This is probably a better place for the dispute, because this appears to be primarily a content dispute. If the case at WP:ANI is closed as a content dispute, it can be reopened here. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Note - I will be opening this case for moderated discussion shortly. User:PeterSweden, User:Robby.is.on - Please reply if you wish to take part in discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:34, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Reply to Volunteer Note
Not on the topic of a content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hello, I am fully aware that this dispute is subject to high level political discussion. I also understand that a commitment to add the remark "contested" may in the worst consequence lead to the result that Wikipedia will be blocked in China. This is therefore a fundamental question and a question how strongly Wikipedia is standing behind values of freedom, democracy, etc. Since I am working in an international company myself, I know this moral conflict extremely well...
Regarding your question if I would like to participate. Somehow yes, although my time is very limited. Let us discuss this issue - I believe many of us here understand very well what we are talking about and what consequences we might face. But there are also some fundamental values which we represent. Saying this, please feel free to contact me. Thank you.PeterSweden (talk) 19:25, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Our Lady of Medjugorje
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Red Rose 13 on 19:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC).
Closed. It appears that at least one of the parties is really looking for a rewriting of multiple articles. They also seem to be complaining that this is taking more than six months, but rewriting of articles is a time-consuming process. They have been advised to rewrite the articles in sandboxes and then discuss them. Either I or another DRN volunteer will be available to assist in resolving any specific content disputes that arise during a rewriting project. This noticeboard does not address vaguely worded content issues. A new request can be made here if there are new content issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
There are two editors me, Red Rose 13 and Governor Sheng. We are part of the editing process on Our Lady of Medjugorje and all related pages. I just recently spent about 10 hours reading researching and then bringing this information to the Pavol Hnilica page. I am under the understanding if I bring information from a secondary, reliable source I don't need to ask permission to post. On the Our Lady of Medjugorje talk page another advanced editor Slp1 has been working with us and with her help we created a list of Excellent and reliable sources and had many discussions including archives.[14] Archive 4 [15] I pulled this information from these excellent sources list. He is now challenging these sources. We need a mediator to help us resolve these issues. To me Governor Sheng seems to have an agenda and I want the page to balanced, neutral and truthful. Please help. Because we have gone through this on other pages as well. Jozo Zovko and Pavao Žanić for example I am open to learning.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
1. Someone needs to oversee these pages and there many
2. I am open to learning guidelines that I may not be aware of and I think Governor Sheng is too. So if an expert can guide us, that would be great.
3. Discussions between us and an expert, neutral editor would be extremely helpful.
Summary of dispute by Governor Sheng
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The issue is going for months now. There are numerous problems here. First of all, the sources Red Rose uses in the article in dispute are Sullivan and Klimek. [19][20]. Although I informed her that the two sources received negative peer review on the talk page of another article, she went on editing without giving any feedback.
Now, they're doing the same thing at the article about Hnilica, major editing, and insertions, major reconstruction of the article, with sources negatively peer-reviewed without any consultation with other editors whatsoever. --Governor Sheng (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Pavol Hnilica discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
DRN is not available for disputes over draft articles or deletion matters. Both of those processes have their own dispute review procedures, drafts through draft review (or simply taking the article into mainspace and seeing if it will survive); deletion matters are decided by an independent reviewer of the deletion nomination. Finally DRN is not a help forum, but a dispute resolution forum. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Also Draft: Michael Moates. A couple of days ago I asked for comment from two administrators regarding the creation of an article that I have a clear conflict of interest on. What I brought to the table was if I create the article in the draft space and then seek comment from the community to fix any issues with a neutral point of view… would that solve our problem? The answer I got was yes and you can see that on my top page. Today, User:Praxidicae nominated both of these articles for speedy deletion. He gave no reason initially. At this point, I have only had 24 hours to work on these articles. Both of them. I know that they need to be worked on which is why they are in the draft space. The editor and I have gotten into it a little bit and things got heated. But the reason I seek help from this group is because I do not want to argue. My goal is to fix these articles so they meet the standard. I would argue that if an individual is notable that the only issue with promotional articles is that the language needs to be corrected. My hope is that individuals from here can give me guidance on how to fix these articles and will also support the inclusion of more articles on Wikipedia. Especially articles that are well cited. I am not against changing the language. I think these articles can be improved it’s just not something I could do in one day. If you could guide me on how to fix these and offer suggestions I would really appreciate it.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I would respectfully ask that someone consider removing the speedy deletion tags. That they offer suggestions on how the articles can be improved. That guidance can be provided between me and the other editor so that there is no further dispute or at least respectful demeanor between both of us. I do except responsibility for my actions. Some of what I have done is because I am relatively new here. I will be transparent and say that I suffer from anxiety and I need to slow down.
Being transparent, I just pulled over to type this message and have been driving during this entire encounter. When I saw the speedy deletion I had a lot of anxiety about it being done before I was able to give any input. I overreacted and I accept responsibility for that. I still remain convinced that given the opportunity to correct these articles they can become productive.
Summary of dispute by Praxidicae
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I wasn't notified of this, as per the requirement however I happened to see it on my Watchlist. This isn't the place to hash this out and no other methods of dispute resolution has been tried. I'd call for a speedy close of this and a massive trout for the filer. YODADICAE👽 17:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
User was not noticed because he asked me to refrain from posting to his talk page. See his talk page history. Because he was tagged here I judged that to be sufficient, I apologize if I was wrong. I’m not looking to argue and frankly I felt given our dispute this could end up in the administrators noticeboard so I wanted to try to descalate things here by addressing the root problems, the content dispute. DoctorTexan (talk) 17:35, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
I am female and my pronouns are she/her. And we're not on a deadline, this isn't really WP:DRN material. If you feel this needs to be at WP:ANI, then take it there. YODADICAE👽 17:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Draft: Dustin Stockton discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There's little or no actual interest in continuing this process. The filer objected to the stated reason for the previous close which described this as a WP:1AM dispute, when there were actually multiple editors on both sides. After re-opening this discussion and placing it on hold, one editor stated a lack of interest in continuing, and no editors expressed a desire to continue. Therefore, I am closing this discussion for the reason that there are no editors interested in pursuing it. Any involved party may feel free to request mediation again, at any point in the future. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 22:12, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
This article is about a sitting member of congress, Majorie Taylor Greene. The subject of the article is a person who holds views which are polarising and sensitive, namely, the person believes in, espouses and amplifies conspiracy theories. This is accepted by all parties.
However the issue is this. In the lead of the article, the subject is described as: ...an American politician, businesswoman, and far-right[3] conspiracy theorist[4] serving as the U.S. representative for Georgia's 14th congressional district.
The issues at hand is how 'Far-right conspiracy theorist' should be presented.
There are several elements to the current discussion.
One the one hand, 'Far right conspiracy theorist' is a fact that is verifiable through multiple sources. An argument has been advanced that as this is the case, there is no issue with the subject being described as such.
On the other hand, there is a feeling that in its current guise, the lead is actually rather polarising as it describes her beliefs as part of her form. It is argued that in its current form, it is damaging to wikipedia as a source as the phrase itself may seem inflammatory to some.
Research has been done into the form taken on other subjects in this class, namely sitting members of the United States Congress. It has been observed that in a sample of 50 members, a number of whom could be described as 'far left' or 'far right,' there is a consistent standard in separating who the person is and what it is they believe in. I.e - this person is representative a of area b of party c. They have been there since x time.
Editors are engaged in a thoughtful but unproductive discussion that is clouded by the opinion or biases of some editors vs the actual intent of others to deal with form and not fact. The dispute is not in the information, simply how it should be presented.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Marjorie_Taylor_Greene#conspiracy_theorist
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
This concern should be settled independently of the editors, and in doing so, it may have the potential to set a standard for this class of people avoiding the need for dispute resolution for other figures in the future.
Summary of dispute by Slatersteven
Very much a low-edit user who is a lone voice. And this is a very none neutral DR (note I should have said they need an RFC, not DR, I sometimes forget that DR in actually a thing here not just a broad term).
Yes, if there are issues with other pages change them, do not use it as an excuse to change this one.Slatersteven (talk) 09:20, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by The Four Deuces
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Guy Macon
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This is a thoroughly non-neutral statement of a WP:1AM case. The OP has a hundred edits, averaging 0.03 edits/day since registering, and their other edits are mainly to articles related to traffic signs, so I understand why they don't grok our coverage of political topics. But I don't think they get to lecture us on why the massively more experienced editors who reject their assertions must necessarily be doing so out of bias.
All reliable independent sources characterise Greene as a conspiracy theorist, her support for QAnon is the major source of her notability, it is her brand. Parallels with people known for other things but only tangentially involved with conspiracy theories, do not hold up here. Greene thinks she's the anti-AOC (which, by her own terms, would mean "radical far-right fascist", as she calls AOC a "radical far-left socialist"). She was also excluded from committees in a bipartisan vote due to her outrageous comments. Violent conspiracist rhetoric is a defining characteristic for Greene, per a huge number of reliable sources cited in the article. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
JzG, just a point of info...I think it's quite possible AOC would agree she is/nearly is a socialist/has socialist beliefs, while I doubt Greene would agree she is a fascist. —valereee (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Fascism is not the sole counterpart to socialism, and is not the case with Greene, whose actual political views seem standard tea party fair or Paleolibertarianism. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:15, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Not sure what there is to mediate - either one follows project policy regarding sourcing and verifiability, or one does not. Despite being elected to Congress, the BLP subject in question (again, per sources) does no actual legislating, her entire raison d'être is the promulgation of conspiracy theories. She should be described, prominently, as such. ValarianB (talk) 11:46, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Re, mediation, IMO this is a simple matter for an RfC. ValarianB (talk) 18:42, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Majorie Taylor Greene discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Note - I had closed this dispute with the following statement:
"Closed as not likely to accomplish anything here. As noted by a non-party, this is a one-against-many dispute, and discussion is unlikely to change the rough consensus. Also, the list of parties does not appear to be a complete list, but that is not important. The filing party has at least three choices. First, they can accept that consensus is against them. Second, they can submit a Request for Comments to change the lede of the article. That is unlikely to change the consensus, but it is an option. Third, if their concern also extends to other politicians who are identified as conspiracy theorists, and they think that such a label in the lede of an article should be avoided, they can discuss a policy change to that effect. Either Village Pump (policy) or WikiProject Politics might be forums for such discussion. This thread is closed because DRN is not likely to do anything other than waste words."
I have been asked to reopen the dispute and allow editors to comment. I am reopening the dispute as requested. I will not mediate this dispute but have backed out my action in closing it for now. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:18, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm curious if any of the parties would like a mediated dispute here? If there's agreement on both sides of the issue, I'll do it. If not, then I think this dispute would be better handled at article talk. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 18:03, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
ValarianB Thank you for that answer. It looks to me like the objection to closing it was really just an objection to the mention of WP:1AM in the close. If that's the case, then I'll be happy to close this for the lack of interest in a mediate discussion. Note that I've removed one personal attack already, and it is normal for a dispute here to be closed if parties can't remain civil, or if the discussion turns to behavioral issues. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it. 19:25, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. This is a dispute about the nomination of the deletion of an article, which is already pending at the AFD. DRN does not deal with disputes that are also pending in another forum, or for which there is another forum that is more appropriate. If the filing party thinks that the article should not be deleted, they can and should present their case in the AFD. Disruptive conduct in an AFD may be reported to WP:ANI. Explain in the AFD how the subject is biographically notable. The article may be edited to improve it; see the Heymann test about improvement of articles during deletion discussions.
See also Other Stuff Exists, which is not a valid argument at AFD. However, the other stuff may also be nominated for deletion.
Discuss the article in the article deletion discussion.Robert McClenon (talk) 15:32, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Another editor (力) has nominated the article Emil Kirkegaard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Kirkegaard) for deletion on extremely spurious grounds. They have grounded the nomination on two things: 1) that the article's sources are not good (based on subjective opinion, they are perfectly good, no evidence for their claim) and 2) that the subject (Kirkegaard) is not notable (the subject is objectively more notable than countless other subjects on Wiki, including a few ones the editor in question has made pages on, showcasing their hypocrisy).
As the article has been deleted in the past (I was not aware of this at the time of publication), I am posting this request because I believe it will be deleted again and for no good reason. If it is to be deleted, then by those standards too should thousands upon thousands of other important articles be nominated and deleted (but there is no chance of that, because the editor is targeting it politically, hoping to rally support, which cannot really be questioned given the subject's history (on Wiki), controversial nature, and alleged beliefs).
I want this obvious targeting of the article resolved. Wikipedia should be about knowledge, not politics and censorship.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Provide support on the page, step in editorially, lay out in an authoritative manner proper guidelines for how articles should be treated according to Wiki standards.
Summary of dispute by 力
"Recently recreated after an AFD in 2018. I don't see any good substantial coverage of him in the sources, which largely pre-date the last AFD. Notorious in certain Wikipedia-related circles, but apparently not WP:GNG notable. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)"
Emil Kirkegaard discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed for now. I'm going to close this request for now to give the parties another 24 hours to discuss this before reopening. The filing party had both this request and a report at the edit-warring noticeboard open at the same time, which shows that he may have been acting hastily, before he closed the edit-warring report.
If this is about tagging, do not argue about tagging, but try to resolve the issues that the tags call attention to. If this is about article content, maybe discussion can help.
Try civil discussion for another 24 hours. If the discussion is inconclusive but civil, a new request can be filed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The dispute is (as far as I can tell) over what weight and balance should be given to views about the demolition of the Euston Arch in the early 1960s, and what the mainstream view is of the current station architecture.
I have tried to resolve this dispute on the talk page, but citations I would normally consider reliable (including Rail Magazine and The Guardian) have been challenged. I have pinged a few regular editors who work on these articles to get an informal third opinion, but nobody has responded. The discussion has now deteriorated into personal attacks, so I think this needs a fresh pair of eyes.
Note, an edit-warring report has been filed at WP:AN3, but this does not affect my wish to resolve the dispute and see a compromise suggested that all parties can live with happily.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Review the citations being challenged. Suggest alternative sources, or where inappropriate per POV and balance, prose to remove.
Summary of dispute by John Maynard Friedman
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I question Richie333's categorisation of the issue: I have not questioned the extent of the criticism, but only those parts of it that are expressed in Wikivoice or appear to be WP:OR. I also find it strange that, if they are genuinely interested in amicable dispute resolution, why they would open concurrently a wp:edit war report.
Euston railway station has WP:GA status: it should not contain assertions unsupported by citation. This is especially true of potentially contentious statements and should be self-evident in a section entitled "Criticism". I tagged these for attention rather than deleting any (though Hotpantsraindance did so, for good reasons). More critically, any citations given should actually evidence the content. Ritchie333 removed the tags and also reverted a (cited) balancing opinion added by Hotpantsraindance. So, rather than address every deficiency at once, I picked out an egregious example: a "quotation" that was unattributed and with a non-citing citation. At the article talk page, I explained the problem. I did not challenge the reliability of the sources, but rather invalid use of them. In an attempt to move forward, I split the sentence so that The Guardian citation (which is valid for Macmillan) could stand and tagged only the Railway Magazine citation that neither cites or attributes the quote, as required by WP:QUOTATION. Richie333 reverted again, accusing me of disruption and thus implying that I am acting in bad faith.
This dispute can easily be resolved by Ritchie333 accepting that they don't wp:OWN the article and learning to accept other editors' good faith. CN tags are intended to be helpful, to draw attention to issues that an editor too close to the topic may have failed to spot. The correct response is gratitude, not abuse. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Euston railway station discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The quotation "one of the greatest acts of Post-War architectural vandalism in Britain" is attributed to this article in Rail Magazine cf. "Will the Ordsall Chord echo Euston’s description as being one of the greatest acts of post-war architectural vandalism in Britain?" I have no evidence that Rail is unreliable and a cursory search at WP:RSN yields no results; more importantly, the destruction of the Euston Arch was condemned by public figures such as John Betjeman, which would not, in my opinion, make it a particularly contentious quotation. At worst, the article could say, "The removal of the Euston arch has been described by Rail Magazine as ...."
Regarding the tagging of articles, the best description I have read on this, and its effect on the reader, can, in my view be found at User:Beyond_My_Ken/Thoughts#Tags : "The promiscuous tagging of articles, and the proliferation and expansion of tags, has contributed to tagging having become a new form of vandalism, one that's acceptable to the Wikipedia community because it appears, superficially, to be aimed at improving Wikipedia. It may be, however, that the impulse of at least some taggers is equivalent to the one that prompts graffiti in the real world. .... Perhaps tags should have a pre-set life, and run out if they're not renewed." I endorse this view. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 12:18, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the quotation, the Rail Magazine article does not originate it but merely quotes it incidentally in the course of a commentary on an entirely unrelated topic. Rail Magazine did not describe it this way, they repeated a quotation: for this reason the RM article was never a satisfactory citation. Thanks to another editor, the defect has been repaired and the quotation is now properly attributed (to the Royal Institute of British Architects) and I have thanked the editor who did so. This in itself should be unremarkable as is no less than the minimum standard for Good Article status. But despite the immediate problem being rectified, the substantive point remains: incidental mention does not meet the requirements of wp:Quotation.
Regarding the allegation of drive-by tagging, I don't do that. As my editing history on many articles shows, I try very hard to find the citation online: I regard CN etc tags as the last resort, not the first. The purpose of such tags is to alert editors watching a GA of an embarrassing defect that they may be able to resolve by reference to their personal bookshelf. Good Articles should be above reproach: it is entirely contrary to the ethos of the project to cover up defects. A willingness to visibly acknowledge our shortcomings adds to our credibility, not subtracts from it. It is deeply contrary to the ethos of the project to revert maintenance tags. While it may be sensible to let "more citations" tags article expire, CN tags should certainly not be deleted: after a reasonable period, it is the uncited text that should be deleted. This is a fundamental tenet of the project. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:22, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of musicians using Amharic vocals
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
a DRN volunteer offered the requested 3rd opinion. Editor has agreed to wait to see if filing editor can, in fact, find sources to make the red links blue. If more help is needed, feel free to request this case be re-opened. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The dispute is about whether Red-links should stay in a article of list. One argues they are not notable and therefore should be removed. Other one argues that they are notable, not completely without sources, and is in the process of gathering more comphrensive sources.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Give your take on whether red-links should be removed or not?
Summary of dispute by 2600:8800:1880:68:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B2
@Robert McClenon: has already weighed in with a 3rd opinion, stating that redlinks are OK if the author claims to be actively working in good faith on creating those articles. But not indefinitely. I am happy to let this alone for a week or two and revisit it to see what progress has been made toward article creation. Although I must remark that it seems a long-shot that such a novice editor should gather WP:SIGCOV for 11 articles in an obscure, non-English, non-Western topic area, that will all comfortably pass WP:AFD. Thank you. 2600:8800:1880:68:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 05:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
List of musicians using Amharic vocals discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
– This request has been placed on hold.
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.