Talk:Ukraine/Archive 10

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Name of the country in Russian

According to the Constitution of Ukraine, the only state language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. In May 2019, a law was passed to ensure the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the state language. Thus, there is currently only one single state language in Ukraine. Currently, only the Ukrainian language is used in the work of state and local authorities. The Russian language had a regional status in accordance with the law on the principles of state language policy and decisions of local governments of the respective regions. But at the moment, the law on the principles of state language policy has been declared unconstitutional, and the decisions of local governments have been declared invalid by the courts.

Given the lack of any status of the Russian language in Ukraine, the presentation of the name of the country in Russian in the article is inappropriate.

Please remove the name of the country in Russian. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 09:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

There is no such a term as "state language" in the Western culture. The term "official language" is used instead. This term defends the right of citizens to communicate with authorities using that language. Other aspects of language usage are not regulated at all. For example, there is NO official language in the US, but local authorities may decide to use some specific language or languages. Thus, in the state of New York, two languages (English and Spanish) are used officially, although that is not defined by law (the state of New York has no official language). That is a big difference between the standard world practice and what happens in Ukraine: Ukrainian authorities take legal steps to force their citizen to change their language preferences, whereas the authorities of an average user-friendly democratic state are monitoring language preferences of their citizens and change the language policy to better accommodate their citizens' needs.

Therefore, it would be totally against the spirit and the letter of Wikipedia policy to change our approach to language policy by reflecting the position of Ukrainian authorities.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:20, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Paul Siebert In Ukraine, the rights of Russian-speaking people are not violated, you can be sure when you visit the country. Secondly, the Russian language has no official or any other status in Ukraine. Third, giving the name of a country in Russian is just illogical, for the reason that the name of the country is given in a language that has no official status. If we start from the fact that Ukrainians also speak Russian, then as an argument, we can say that Ukrainians also speak Romanian, Hungarian, Polish, Crimean Tatar and other languages. Therefore, in this case, logically and consistently, as well as the rules of Wikipedia, the answer will be that if the name of the country is submitted exclusively in Ukrainian. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 12:50, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

We are talking about different things. English has no official status in the US either, but that does not prevent us from using it for naming. You probably mix the terms "official language" with "national language": whereas Russian is not Ukraine's official language, it is one of its national languages (probably, at greater degree than Ukrainian, because (for example) Crimean Tatars and Hungarians would prefer to communicate in Russian as a universally understood language, rather than Ukrainian. As you correctly noted, Russian is being widely used in Ukraine (and will be used in future), and our goal is to reflect that fact.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You can reflect this fact in the section on demographics. It is up to them to decide which language Hungarians or Crimean Tatars would prefer to speak. As for the language of writing the original name, the language that is official in the country and that is national should be used. As it is given in articles concerning other countries, such as for example Romania where Hungarian is widely used, and or Turkey where Kurdish languages ​​are widely used. Otherwise, in the original name of the country, you should add names. countries in all 16 languages, which until recently had official status in Ukrainian regions. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 16:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Give an example where in Ukraine, non-Ukrainian speakers are forced to speak Ukrainian. Because your statements are too politicized and untrue. This is me as a resident of Odessa, which, as you know, is mostly Russian-speaking. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 17:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

please, format your posts properly (similar to what I've done for you. I have no idea why you decided I claim people are forced to speak Ukrainian in Ukraine. With regard to the rest, the very meaning of the term "national language" does not necessarily imply a de jure connection with the nation: a de facto connection is sufficient. And Russian is one (out of two) national languages in Ukraine: it is a part of the Ukrainian national culture, it is universally spoken and understood (unlike the languages of national minorities), and no steps taken by Ukrainian authorities can change that fact (at least, now). --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:25, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You understand what the problem is, when we find in the article France, we will see that the name of the country is given only in French. When in this country there is a significant Arab diaspora, which is part of French society, popular culture and so on. Therefore, based on this, I believe that the name of the country in Russian should not be given. When we talk about the affiliation of the Russian language to Ukraine, it would be better and more correct according to the same rules of Wikipedia, to give the name of the country exclusively in Ukrainian, while the role of the Russian language should be described in the article separately. For example, the work of Russian writers who were of Ukrainian origin.

And this is not an example of Russophobia or political bias. This format will comply with established Wikipedia rules. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 18:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Please, format your posts properly (by adding ":", like I am doing). Who speaks about Russophobia here? Russian in Ukraine has no direct relation to ethnic Russians: many (if not majority of) ethnic Ukrainians use Russian as a primary language (for many of them it is their mother tongue). That is why any analogy with France is not working here. --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The fact that the majority of Ukrainians use the Russian language is a myth, which is confirmed by numerous sociological studies, as well as the census. As for Russophobia, I wrote that if I oppose the name of the country being indicated in Russian, then I should not think that I am Russophobic and do not like this language. France is not really an example, but the United States is a clear example. When a significant portion of Americans use Spanish. However, the name of the country in Spanish is not mentioned in the article.

So what do I suggest. The original name of the country in Russian should be removed. In the introduction to the article to note by analogy with how these historical states in the Ukrainian lands, which formed the basis of modern Ukrainian national identity. Thus, it should be noted that Ukrainians are a bilingual nation - bilinguals. Ukrainian and Russian languages ​​are the property of the Ukrainian people, part of Ukrainian culture, etc. Among Russian writers there is a lion's share of Ukrainians, namely Mykola Gogol, Korolenko, Ba is also a writer. who were of mixed origin: Bulgakov, Akhmatova, Chekhov, Mayakovsky, etc.

Moreover, for more information, it would be good to add that such writers as Juliusz Słowacki, Joseph Conrad, Clarissa Lispector also came from Ukraine, although they were not Ukrainians by ethnic origin. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 19:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Please, observe talk page formatting rules if you seriously want to participate in talk page discussions.

I didn't claim Russian is a mother tongue of majority of Ukrainians. I claim that a significant part of ethnic Ukrainians are native Russian speakers, and, Russian is probably still more abundant in Ukraine. If you claim it is a "myth", please provide reliable sources (not associated with some state sponsored mass-media). If you cannot do that, please, stop this discussion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Again, we have departed from the essence of the discussion. The question is not whether some Ukrainians speak Russian, or the fact that the Russian language is widespread in Ukraine. The question is that the very fact of mentioning the name of the country in the article is not logical regarding the rules and customs of Wikipedia itself. Because based on the same, the question arises why the articles on other countries do not give the names of these countries in other languages, which are also widely represented there. Articles about the United States do not give the name of the country in Spanish, and articles about post-Soviet countries, such as Moldova, the Baltic republics, and the Transcaucasian republics, do not name these countries in Russian. This is not logical. I suggested a normal solution to this problem. Remove the title in Russian, instead create a paragraph in the introduction to the article on languages ​​in Ukraine and their role in Ukrainian culture. Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 21:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Information on the use of Ukrainian and Russian in Ukraine https://prostirsvobody.org/news/0/550/?fbclid=IwAR2Hh0LTtHWqn6okCpzfvQvrTK8bv5Vv_iwbtzAU7JYQ2_QPnfGJfT3ra_o Severo Joy Krzyżaniwski (talk) 22:08, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

This is nonsense! In Ukraine, there is only one official language - Ukrainian, so the name should be duplicated ONLY in Ukrainian!!!!! WTF?! Yaroslav Dolishniak (talk) 23:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png#mw-jump-to-license Yaroslav Dolishniak (talk) 23:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I don’t see any arguments above, pro or con, that refer to Wikipedia’s actual guidelines. It doesn’t matter much whether Russian is official, or protected, or widely spoken in Ukraine (it’s spoken by proportionately more people in Belarus, Latvia, and Estonia, by the way). MOS:LEADLANG is the guide: If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses. —Michael Z. 02:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Українською мовою за новим законом, мають обов'язково розмовляти тільки в офіційних установах, в інших місцях будь-якою — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.92.30.215 (talk) 19:54, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Translation of above is Ukranian langauge per the the new law is mandatory only in offical contexts in other places [any langauge is permited]—blindlynx (talk) 03:13, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Russia and Muscovy

Until October 22, 1721, Russia was called Muscovy, so it is incorrect to use the name Russia until 1721 https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Московія https://sites.google.com/site/kozeletsveterinarylibrary/citalna-zala/istoricna-dovidka/ak-bula-vkradena-rus

It is rather incorrect to refer to edited-by-anyone wiki (non-RS) and unreliable fringe "sources" to contest the established facts (and well, the fact is that Russia was indeed called by its name even before 1721[1]). --Seryo93 (talk) 18:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Article check.

Hi, can we get this article checked by moderators? User Danloud removed over 15972 symbols in the last 3 days. Honestly, this looks suspicious. Can you help us, Mzajac?--37.225.45.37 (talk) 18:12, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh god! Must get help from admins, looks like somebody tried to update an article which is filled with old information, mostly unsourced, some sections left completely unsourced, and hasn't been updated since years. Very "suspicious" indeed, random IP user. Danloud ^(talk) 19:54, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I will have a look when I have some time to commit. If someone has any specific concerns, it would be helpful to post a description and a link to the particular WP:DIFF. —Michael Z. 17:51, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 May 2021

Can somebody add this to the WW2 part of the page.

На території України окупанти спалили разом із мешканцями 250 сіл. У 230 концтаборах і гетто, а також в інших місцях масового знищення від рук нацистів загинуло 5,5 млн людей. Близько 2,5 млн полягло на фронтах. З 2,8 млн людей, яких гітлерівці вивезли до Німеччини з СРСР для роботи на промислових підприємствах і в сільському господарстві, близько 2,4 млн осіб були з України. Втрати українського народу у війні становлять 40-44% від загальних втрат СРСР.

What I want to add at the end of the WW2 part of the page. (The losses of the Ukrainian people in the war amounted to 40-44% of the total losses of the USSR.) Thelostone41 (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC) http://usva.org.ua/mambo3/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2558&Itemid=60 Thelostone41 (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The English Wikipedia is written in English. Please let us know the exact English-language text that you would like to add to the article, and specifically where you want it to go (for example, "after the sentence that ends with 'your text here'"). – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2021

Can somebody add this to the WW2 part of the page.

(The losses of the Ukrainian people in the war amounted to 40-44% of the total losses of the USSR.) 
 

http://usva.org.ua/mambo3/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2558&Itemid=60 Thelostone41 (talk) 14:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done ― Qwerfjkl  (please use {{reply to|Qwerfjkl}} on reply) 16:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Please remove the template "Commonwealth of Independent States"

Ukraine has never been a member of this organization, and in 2018 terminated its associate membership. This template is also missing from the article by Georgia, which was once a member of the CIS.

The presence or absence of this template should be the same for Ukraine and Georgia. No position on which to choose, but they should match. --Khajidha (talk) 20:39, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about this myself, nor do I have any information apart from what's here. But if you open the template, it lists Ukraine under "Former participants" and then says "Ukraine (1991–2018, defined as not a member by the CIS Charter in 1993)". Since the template does address Ukraine's membership or non-membership (and since I thought--and other people might think--that ALL fifteen former Soviet Republics were members), I'd say the presence of the template here is appropriate. Uporządnicki (talk) 09:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Сергей Павлович Королёв (портрет).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

GDP PPP per capita

Given here as 2020 estimate $10,310. According to indicated source (IMF) this should be rather around $13,500. See also List of countries by GDP (PPP). Please check. Oalexander (talk) 05:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2021

Change Judaism, Muslims and Hinduism to Judaism, Islam and Hinduism 2601:48:4400:8A90:AC6F:1E46:CE45:37B9 (talk) 19:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:40, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2021

In "courts and law enforcement" section Ukrainian police is still called Міліція, even though it was renamed to National Police of Ukraine in 2015. Please change it to its current name. --Tuirse (talk) 22:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 01:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Language

Actually, Ukraine has 3 official languages. Ukrainian is only official at all regions except AR of Crimea. There are russian and crimean tatar languages official.

Also, if I remember, regional languages law (also known as Kivalov-Kolesnichenko law) was cancelled a long time ago as violation of Constitution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.36.187.17 (talk) 08:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Islam

Why is Islam not in the demographics? it's the second largest religion. it shows data for hinduism, budhism but not Islam in the graph

Maidan = square

As noted here: "The Euromaidan (Ukrainian: Євромайдан, literally "Eurosquare")" "maidan" is Ukrainian for the English "square."

Hence, "Maidan Nezalezhnosti square" later on belongs in the Department of Redundancy Department. It should read "Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Nezalezhnosti square)." I didn't notice if that mistake was made other places, but it should be corrected. Thanks.

Minor: link to Wikipedia Podzol page in soil section.

In the soil section podzolized soil is mentioned. Might it not be reasonable to link podzolized to the Podzol Wikipedia page as it is an obscure reference.

Alter grammar tense

This sentence here should be past tense: From "On 4 March 2020, The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine accepts the resignation of the Honcharuk Government and begins the formation of the Shmyhal Government" to "On 4 March 2020, The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine accepted the resignation of the Honcharuk Government and the Shmyhal Government was formed." Gemini.skywalker (talk) 12:29, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

"Kiev compromise" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kiev compromise and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 December 21#Kiev compromise until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 January 2022

In the "Recognised regional languages" section of the infobox, please change the Wikitext [[Greek language|Greek]] to [[Modern Greek|Greek]] and [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]] to [[Modern Hebrew|Hebrew]] as these are the languages spoken in Ukraine today, not their ancient variants. Joesom333 (talk) 16:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2022

Change: "The vast majority of the fighting in World War II took place on the Eastern Front.[114] By some estimates, 93% of all German casualties took place there."

To: "The majority of the deaths in the European theater of World War II took place on the Eastern Front.[114] By one man's estimate, 93% of all German casualties took place there, but this is easily disproved by readily available statistical WWII data." (Source below)

NOTE------------------------- Citations 114 and 115 are rather Euro/Ruso centric and easily disproved. 85 million people died in WWII, no one will support half of those were on the easternfront. Additionally the second source for 115 is nothing more than a man's name and not an actual work. It's preposterous to say that 93% of German casualties were on the Eastern front and then disregard that the US took nearly 8 million German Prisoners. Both of those numbers cannot be simultaneously accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II#United_States_Army_Figures_for_German_and_Italian_Losses 192.63.67.46 (talk) 03:21, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

1) If it were really that easy to disprove, we wouldn't change it to such a condescending sentence, we would simply remove it. 2) What does the number of prisoners have to do with casualties? Casualties are those killed or injured. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 05:43, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:05, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

"Disputed" territories? I'm pretty sure everyone but Russia calls them "occupied"

Change "disputed" to "occupied". 2A02:2F07:B313:1800:F5A6:3139:6D40:BB73 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

That still makes it disputed. --Khajidha (talk) 14:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Not all of them. Lughansk and Donetsk are not officially claimed by Russia. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 01:33, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

If a bully comes into my home with a gun...

and claims it's his house and his family, the word "disputed" is absurdly understating the situation, so much so that it is practically incorrect. The "dispute" and "occupation" are TWO DIFFERENT topics, yet they should be simultaneously mentioned. Russia can DISPUTE Ukraine's claim without occupying their territory. If we must be unbiased, "illegally occupied by Russia and disputed" would be far more correct. I'm sure the UN would categorize this occupation as illegal. 172.58.102.207 (talk) 13:29, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Still a territorial dispute. See: List of territorial disputes#Europe. Mellk (talk) 06:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

It s not the second-largest country by area after russia. France os largest

Change 2001:8A0:E390:6300:3CF8:83DD:4935:F9EE (talk) 23:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Only if you consider all of France, anywhere in the world. If you consider only France in Europe, Ukraine is larger. Uporządnicki (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

As I've said before, the wording of that sentence is ambiguous. What it is meant to say is that Ukraine's European territory is larger than that of any country other than Russia. Which is true. But it could also be read as saying that it is the second largest European country in absolute terms. Which is not true. Why bother mentioning it if it is only going to be second best AND is open to confusion? Why not just state that it is the largest country whose territory is completely in Europe? That is true and unambiguous. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 03:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

User:Khajidha Well, if there were a country whose territory in Europe was larger than Ukraine, BUT that country also had territory outside of Europe, then your proposed statement would technically still be true. Uporządnicki (talk) 10:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

As such a country does not exist, that is irrelevant. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 10:46, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Irrelevant IF you're only telling people who already know. Someone who doesn't know could be left wondering. You spoke of ambiguity. Precision is important. I had some ideas for fixing this. Now I've seen, there's a note that should clarify things. But for some reason, there are two sets of notes. AND the note that should clarify it seems to be linked to nowhere. When I have some time, I hope to get in and figure that out. Uporządnicki (talk) 12:52, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Add "surreptitious occupation"

Crimea was not simply annexed. It was insidiously occupied by force prior to this. I suggest we modify the following (add capitalized text) "These events formed the background for the ILLEGAL, SURREPTITIOUS OCCUPATION and annexation of Crimea by Russia in March 2014" 172.58.102.207 (talk) 13:16, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Provide some reliable sources to back that up, and someone might do what you suggest. Uporządnicki (talk) 12:55, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

"in Europe after Russia" phrase = disinformative

"in Europe after Russia" The above phrase appears repeatedly in the article and falsely suggests that Russia is a part of Europe. This needs to be fixed. 190.42.225.31 (talk) 00:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Russia is in Europe, so what needs to be fixed? The country of Russia spans Europe and Asia. Jeppiz (talk) 02:10, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The name of the country/state is the Russian Federation, a multi-national state of Russians, Asians, etc. - "Russia" is the wholly European historic territory west of the Urals that constitutes the homeland of Russian-native people. Technically speaking.50.111.34.214 (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you seriously think you can achieve your goal with nonsensical trolling like this? You're contradicting yourself here, too. Mspriz (talk) 09:09, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why such users wish to demonstrate complete lack of basic geographical knowledge. See: European Russia and Europe. Mellk (talk) 06:49, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Mspriz, maybe I've misunderstood you, but it looks to me like you're mistaken in your statement about "contradicting" oneself. IF the first posting here and the third posting were submitted by the same User, then that User would indeed be contradicting him/herself. But I don't think that's the case. It looks like the two postings were submitted by two different Users. In that case, the third posting is contradicting the first--showing that User where s/he is mistaken. Uporządnicki (talk) 17:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Very inadequate sourcing

For an article topic this fundamental, controversial and important, the sourcing is shockingly poor, far below Wikipedia's citing sources and reliable sources standards, in my humble opinion.

A brief scan of the References list seems to show an absolutely overwhelming use of WP:PRIMARY sources. In very many situations, the primary sources are not backed up by any independent source.

In fact, a disturbingly high percentage of significant statements in the article are supported by only one source -- often a soft or dubious source. And some of the statements bear little clear resemblance to the facts, even as reported in the source cited. For example, in the Wikipedia article, in the (urgently timely and sensitive) section on "Civil unrest, Russian intervention, and annexation of Crimea," a whole paragraph, citing only one source, says:

"...Poroshenko negotiated a ceasefire with the separatist troops. ... It... included conditions such as Ukrainian control of the border with Russia in 2015 and the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Ukrainian territory."

...stating, in essence, then, that the agreement was to "the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Ukrainian territory," despite the fact that Ukrainian territory of Crimea was, implicitly, not part of that agreement, despite the fact that Crimea (by prevailing international interpretation) is Russian-occupied Ukrainian territory. That incomplete (and thus colossally inaccurate) Wikipedia paragraph was a blatant misrepresentation of the (single) cited source, which stated exactly:

"A separate document signed by the three presidents and the chancellor committed Putin to respecting Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, although clearly last year’s Russian annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula will be ignored here."[2]

Too often a highly partisan publication -- (for instance: The arch-conservative (London Daily) Telegraph, or the arch-liberal (formerly Manchester) Guardian) -- is the sole cited source for a significant statement (even a whole paragraph), without any corroboration from an opposing-bias source (nor even a comparatively neutral source). While I use these sources, myself, often -- and sometimes as sole sources -- I generally refrain from citing them as sole sources on matters of global gravity and controversy (and, right now, that's just about everything about Ukraine).

Further, many of the sources cited are relatively soft, and not commonly used in English-language Wikipedia -- including, apparently, non-English sources and sources in countries where there is little or no freedom of the press (including, apparently, Ukraine's arch-enemy, Russia).

Finally, the list of books and papers cited does not (generally) list their publishers -- just their authors. In an article this important, controversial and sensitive, it is very important to identify publishers. There's a huge difference in credibility between a book published by the Oxford University Press and one published by Pravda. I urge editors, as their time permits, to prioritize correcting these omissions.

Given the urgent global importance of Ukraine, today -- and the complex and sensitive controversies surrounding it -- this is presently one of the most important articles on Wikipedia.

I urge serious, responsible editors to review as much of this article as possible, to evaluate the sources, and their content, against the prevailing evidence in commonly-accepted WP:RS sources, and correct where appropriate -- and to augment the current cited sources with additional reference citations from other, more reliable (or competing), recognized sources.

Respectfully, ~ Penlite (talk) 08:33, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Given the current dispute, it would be helpful to detail what Ukraine was politically before WorldWar I. This part of the history in the article is very sketchy, so it was difficult to understand who ruled Ukraine at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.193.59 (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Khrushchovka

This File:Kryvyi Rih - apartment building2.jpg is not a khrushchovka but this File:Хрущовка.JPG is khrushchovka. So you need to change the photo File:Kryvyi Rih - apartment building2.jpg to File:Хрущовка.JPG and the text should not be "An example of a Khrushchyovka in Kryvyi Rih", but it should be "An example of a Khrushchyovka in Kyiv". Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 19:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done (CC) Tbhotch^™ 19:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 February 2022

There is an obvious mistake in lede. Where it says "After World War II, the western part of Ukraine merged into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the whole country became a part of the Soviet Union. Ukraine regained its independence in 1991, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union."... it should say World War I, since Ukraine became part of the Soviet Union after the FIRST World War, not the second one.

 Done Cannolis (talk) 12:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Wrong. See Talk:Ukraine/Archive_9#Historical_inaccuracies. Whilst UkrSSR was indeed a founding member of the USSR, western Ukraine became a part of the Soviet territory only in 1940s. Ukrainian SSR of 1922 comprised only a part of present-day Ukraine. Hence "the whole country became a part of the Soviet Union" (emphasis mine). I clarified that a bit, so this shouldn't confuse any longer. Bests, Seryo93 (talk) 19:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think such details belong to lede, but maybe someone could clarify that Eastern Ukraine became part of the USSR after WWI instead of having a parenthesis?Dalaufer (talk) 09:16, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

What's happening in Ukraine?

This article contains nothing about the current (late 2021-early 2022) Russian military build-up on Ukraine's border which has dominated international news for the past month. It would be good to at least mention it. Fuzzypeg★ 05:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I came to the article to check when exactly the recent Russian military encirclement of Ukraine began and I am unable to comprehend why there is no reference at all to such a major geopolitical event which has dominated the news for a month, or is it even more? This is precisely what I came here to find out. O'Dea (talk) 13:36, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

It is not mentioned for the simple reason that no one has added it. You seem interested in the topic and apparently have access to sources, so why haven't you added it? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:36, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I have time to perform only quick hit and run edits at the moment. The story of the progressive encirclement of Ukraine and of the long and detailed progress of multilateral diplomatic efforts is a large story requiring the discovery of many sources and the ordering of the narrative, requiring time I don't have.

Your glib reply ("no one has added it") merely repeats what's in my question and doesn't address the fact that this is the biggest geopolitical story in the world for over a month and it's extraordinary that has not been added to the article. O'Dea (talk) 16:20, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

It could be the biggest story since the cruxifiction, but if no one bothers to write it up it won't be here. There is no campaign to keep it off of here, but no one seems to care enough to add it. We're all volunteers here, we don't write articles just because you want to read them. You're the only one that you can make write the articles that you want to read. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:58, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Small correction

The text currently reads: thus making the whole country (rather than only eastern part of it)

The article THE is missing: rather than only THE eastern part of it.

It is in the second paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.41.129.20 (talk) 14:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Who disputes Donbas region is part of Ukraine?

No government disputes that this region is part of Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/feb/20/ukraine-crisis-russia-plans-biggest-war-since-1945-says-johnson-zelenskiy-calls-for-sanctions-now-live

Antonov (Russian ambassador) also stated that Moscow considered the Donbas region “as part of Ukraine.” 2A04:4A43:4DAF:D0CB:88E5:F359:4810:88CD (talk) 17:54, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 February 2022

Change Rasetrelli to Rastrelli, the name of this architect is Rastrelli and it is misspelled in at least one occurrence on this page. Tmargaria (talk) 16:07, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done I changed the one typo I found. If there are others, please point them out. RudolfRed (talk) 21:55, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

History

The history section (specifically the Russian intervention part) suffers from recentism and needs to be shortened. Only major events should be kept, not news about gas deals, etc. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:A9EB:9746:BFAE:7A5C (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 February 2022 (2)

1922 treaty to create USSR is not mentioned This is a key part of Ukraine history missing 1922-1991

It should be included in two places In the timeline list titled formation 1917 1922 dissolve independence with treaty to create USSR 1991

ALSO in the intro paragraph (after the pre-amble section) The run on sentence

In the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, a Ukrainian national movement for self-determination emerged, and the internationally recognized Ukrainian People's Republic was declared on 23 June 1917.  Ukraine regained its independence in 1991, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Should have “In 1922 Ukraine dissolved by Treaty into creating the USSR.

This is then followed by: Ukraine regained its independence in 1991, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union. 2605:8D80:32C:9A15:2D4B:9E6D:4631:C103 (talk) 22:55, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

In the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, a Ukrainian national movement for self-determination emerged, and the internationally recognized Ukrainian People's Republic was declared on 23 June 1917.

In 1922, Ukraine dissolved by Treaty into creating the USSR. Ukraine regained its independence in 1991, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union. RoseEatsRice (talk) 22:59, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Thanks, Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 February 2022

The article states Ukraine is the third largest military in Europe, After verifying through multiple sources i found this to be incorrect for they have placed 9th in largest military in Europe. 184.89.41.130 (talk) 20:50, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 20:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

The sentence claiming Ukraine had the third largest military in Europe was sourced to globalfirepower.com, which doesn't look like a reliable source to me. I've gone ahead and removed it. --RaiderAspect (talk) 05:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2022

Also Russian language is used by 75% of population. 2600:1010:B1D1:361F:506C:576:46B9:19E (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 07:26, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2022 (2)

There should be some reference of Oleksandr Usyk considering he is currently the foremost Ukrainian boxer in the world. The paragraph should also end with a period instead of a comma. I'm suggesting the following addition/edit:

Ukrainian boxers are amongst the best in the world.[413] Since becoming the undisputed cruiserweight champion in 2018, Oleksandr Usyk has also gone on to win the unified WBA (Super), IBF, WBO and IBO heavyweight titles. This feat made him one of only three boxers to have unified the cruiserweight world titles and become a world heavyweight champion. The brothers Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko are former heavyweight world champions who held multiple world titles throughout their careers. Also hailing from Ukraine, Vasyl Lomachenko, a 2008 and 2012 Olympic gold medalist. He is the unified lightweight world champion who ties the record for winning a world title in the fewest professional fights; three. As of September 2018, he is ranked as the world's best active boxer, pound for pound, by ESPN.[414] 66.27.116.106 (talk) 08:39, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done Everything checks out here, I've gone ahead and made the change. Thank you. TimSmit (talk) 15:09, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Addition of tag

This would be due to escalating tensions and Ukraine could change any day now, by invasion, political crisis, etc. Hcoder3104☭ (💬) 19:23, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Going to post it. Hcoder3104☭ (💬) 17:03, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Consistency in the lede - "It spans an area of 603628km (Including the disputed territory of Crimea) with a population of 41.2 million,(Excluding the disputed territory of Crimea)"

The first paragraph of the lede now says, with the brackets representing foot notes, "It spans an area of 603,628 km² (233,062 sq mi),(including the disputed territory of Crimea.) with a population of 41.2 million,(Excluding the disputed territory of Crimea)" surely both figures should refer to the same territory?♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ^{♥ Talk ♥} 20:35, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Pending discussion I have added the area and population of Crimea to the footnotes for clarity.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ^{♥ Talk ♥} 20:47, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Should the area/population of Donetsk and Luhansk be excluded/included/mentioned in the figures in the lede?

I could find no explanation in the archives for the strange treatment of Crimea described above. If there is a logic to including/excluding territory/population not under Ukrainian government control, perhaps it should also apply to these area.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ^{♥ Talk ♥} 21:07, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2022 (2)

After the Russian invasion of Ukraine, previously increasing tensions in Europe, immediately 40 people were confirmed dead as of the war. Many countries, including Germany had announced they'd send support to Ukraine. 2A02:C7E:562C:2F00:B542:6BD5:54CC:6FEB (talk) 10:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done That information is already present in the infobox of the relevant article, which is 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. LongLivePortugal (talk) 10:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Detail of Russian Invasion 2022

Suggestion for a swift upadate of Ukrainian president Zelenski declaring martial law, Delcaration of Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR), military actions of Belarus in the Pripyat river, land & sea landing invasions in Crimea, Odessa and Dnipro, bombing of Kyiv etc. 118.43.235.137 (talk) 11:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

There is a page dedicated to the invasion found here - 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine Asr1014 (talk) 11:45, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

very small correction

in the timing of 2014 the crimea invasion seems to happen after old president decadence and even the new elections. it can be simply corrected by moving three lines upper the already existing short statement "The ousting[190] of Yanukovych prompted Vladimir Putin to begin preparations to annex Crimea on 23 February 2014.[191][192]" . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberto90967 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done LongLivePortugal (talk) 13:59, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Spelling: Constitution of Ukraine

Last sentence in the section of Ukraine#Constitution of Ukraine has a spelling mistake in the link to the prime minister of Ukraine. Sda030 (talk) 15:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

•  Done, thank you! ASUKITE 15:06, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2022

Putin's statement as to the purpose of the invasion was not simple demilitarization as is currently said, but to de-nazify and demilitarize the country. I believe this is an important distinction 135.23.157.227 (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Renat 09:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

User:RenatUK https://www.firstpost.com/world/demilitarise-and-denazify-how-vladimir-putin-justifies-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-10405181.html ♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ^{♥ Talk ♥} 16:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2022 (4)

Update as of 02-24-2022 Repubic of Ukraine .....this article states Ukrain is a member of Nato, United Nations. Ukraine IS NOT a member of the United Nations at this time. 24.112.109.127 (talk) 19:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Note: The article does not state that Ukraine is a member of NATO -- TNT (talk • she/her) 19:45, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2022

In the section 'Russian 2022 invasion of Ukraine' the last line of the first paragraph has a hanging bracket before 'American intelligence service' which should be removed. It appears to be there in error. Dauwenkust (talk) 01:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done Appears to be there because of previous edit where it was linked, but removed.-- • Apollo468•  02:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

2022 invasion

The Russians will have probably taken Kyiv in a day or two. It is believed that they have entered a hospital and opened fire with patients inside, which is a severe war crime. They have as well attacked a kindergarten with children inside. They have ran a car over with a elderly civilian inside. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-putin-war-kyiv-invasion-latest-b2022971.html https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-forces-attack-kindergarten-in-ukraine-casualties-reported-officials/ar-AAUiMYv?ocid=uxbndlbing Megabits13 (talk) 17:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)Megabits13 I also recommend having this page either listed as a protected page or a semi-protected page for this is a controversial topic. Megabits13 (talk) 17:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)Megabits13

What would you like to change for the first one? Also, it is extended-confirmed right now (500+ edits). The next would be full protection and template protection, which means only admins can edit.-- • Apollo468•  22:53, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Russia war with Ukraine

Russia invades Ukraine 2A00:23C8:3F0B:C01:C528:33C3:1CA8:B6A8 (talk) 21:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.-- • Apollo468•  22:53, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Added FAQ

Added a FAQ to the Talk header. There's only one question on it now (about second-largest country in Europe), but feel free to add more. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:34, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Adding Kyiv In Invaded Area's

OK! So Kyiv Is In Battle Now, I Suggest Changing The Map To Russia, Because A Russian Victory Is More Likely? Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 02:29, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Also, Adding A Own Section For The 2022 Russo Ukrainian War Would Be Nice Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 02:31, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

^ No? Change the map? Even if they took Kyiv it doesn't mean the battle is over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.193.153.131 (talk) 15:41, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Which invaded area? And the invaded area's what? Uporządnicki (talk) 15:49, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

But seriously (apart from the snide remark on grammar; the plural of "area" is "areas," NOT "area's"), you're proposing we declare it done, based on what you believe will likely happen in the future. 16:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Size of the country

The article states that Ukraine is the second largest country in Europe after Russia, but France is larger than Ukraine. 173.175.23.195 (talk) 00:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

 France is transcontinental, and as seen by List of European countries by area, they only count land in Europe. France is 551,695 kilometeres squared according to this study, "We studied the metropolitan area of France (excluding Corsica island), which represents about 551,695 km2. Ukraine's is 603,628 kilometeres squared according to this, "Area of Ukraine is 603628 square kilometers.."-- • Apollo468•  01:07, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

References

This is already discussed on this page, here/ Mathglot (talk) 01:22, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Beside the point, but,

• 551,695 kilometers (or kilometres, but NOT kilometeres) squared comes to 304,367,373,025 kilometers.
• 603,628 kilometers squared comes to 364,366,762,384 kilometers.

The first is about 2000 times the distance from the sun to the earth; the second, about 2500 times. And both are lengths; neither one is an area. Are you sure you didn't mean square kilometers? Uporządnicki (talk) 12:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 February 2022

Why Did "The Ukraine" Become Just "Ukraine"?]</ref> and so would be translated as if "the borderlands" — the Ukraine — like how Holland, meaning "low lands", is translated as "the Netherlands".

This statement should not mention Holland, but Nederland. Holland is a part of the Netherlands, whose name comes from "wood land". Nederland means low lands. MKenis (talk) 15:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Hi @MKenis:, you might wish to refer to the Name of Ukraine article, which states that The use of "the Ukraine" is officially deprecated by the Ukrainian government and many English language media publications. While "the" used to be relatively commonly used, the usage of "the" has been gradually phased out. JaventheAldericky (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi @JaventheAlderick:, the problem with the Netherlands analogy, is that the Dutch refer to their country as "Nederland" (singular), whilst the English name is "The Netherlands" (plural, and with an article). The reason for this is probably because the official name of the country is "Het koninkrijk der Nederlanden", The kingdom of the Netherlands (plural). So the comparison is a bit messy. Anyway, I would suggest the following text:

"During most of the 20th century, Ukraine was referred to in the English-speaking world as The Ukraine.[18] This is apparently because the word "ukraina" means "borderland",[19] and so would be translated as "the borderlands" — the Ukraine — like how Nederland, meaning "low land" or "nether land", is translated as "the Netherlands"."

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2022 (3)

can you add the fact that Ukraine declared martial law on the 24th February 2022? the president declared it shortly after 7am local time, and it's important to the country's future and past. thank you. Akirajazmin (talk) 17:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Article on it here: Martial law in Ukraine.-- • Apollo468•  22:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Possibly, however as currently requested, there's not enough information to make this change directly.

@Akirajazmin, @Apollo468: An edit request should include at least one WP:RELIABLESOURCE, a very specific explanation of what needs to be added/removed/changed, and verbatim text of the updated article. You can find really good examples here: WP:ERSAMPLE. If you can't provide all those it's still appropriate to mention your concerns on the Talk: page but most editors won't have the information they need to make the change on your behalf. I've marked this as answered for now because of the missing information but you can always re-open it with more specifics. --N8 01:58, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Russia is not part of Europe

Russia is not part of Europe 2601:543:8100:5C90:309B:DE92:CE67:AF32 (talk) 06:34, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Well you are very wrong. It is both Asia and Europe. I assume you just probably mean European Union. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 08:34, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Request correction to possible typo/numerical error

The first sentence of the second graph reads: The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. which appears to be an error. I don't have data to make an educated correction, though the [entry for Ancient History] cites 5,000 years as the span of recorded history.

 Not done:It seems to be cited correctly in the "Early history" section. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:42, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Small spelling error

"Many regions in the country are currently under Russian ocupation due to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine."

Ocupation should be corrected to occupation, as it is a misspelling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IMiss2010 (talk • contribs) 14:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

thanks - looks already fixedChidgk1 (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Language

In the section on Language, after quite some vacillation on legality and illegality of other languages than Ukrainian the third paragraph states - In February 2019, the law allowing for regional languages was found unconstitutional.[322] Which seems to mean that Russian is considered as unconstitutional. But already in the following paragraph there are many regions cited in which Russian is spoken. Who can understand this confusion?--2001:9E8:255:BA00:E9BA:B790:97ED:1EA9 (talk) 21:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

thanks - tweaked - hope clear now Chidgk1 (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Natural Resources

There is a post on Facebook making the rounds with quite a bit of "facts" about Ukraine's vast natural resources, such as uranium and mercury resources, farm land, etc. A brief scan of this article doesn't mention natural resources. MeekMark (talk) 18:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

4th para of "Geography" does Chidgk1 (talk) 18:03, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Kievan Rus' founding year?

The date for the founding of Kievan Rus' is 882 here, but on the page for both Russia & Kievan Rúus' it is earlier - 879. 139.60.62.147 (talk) 16:25, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Requested cite as I cannot find Chidgk1 (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

In the first paragraph, Ukraine's size being second only to Russia in Europe is mentioned twice. Remove one of these mentions because of redundancy. Gygesfc (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Done thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 18:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

3rd largest

If you count all the land area, Denmark is the second largest country in Europe because of Greenland. Should I change the article? 174.252.193.5 (talk) 20:12, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Greenland is in North America. Georgia guy (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

"funded and trained in tactics of political organisation and nonviolent resistance by Western pollsters"

This unsourced phrase makes no sense. Pollsters do not fund or train activists. If external groups funded or trained people in Ukraine about nonviolent resistance or political organization,and if it is relevant, they should be named. Otherwise the sentence should be deleted. DarleneCypserEsq (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

DarleneCypserEsq I cannot read the pdf cited - have asked for quote - if no one can find in next day or so suggest deleting. So what do you suggest the sentence should say exactly? Or are you suggesting deleting the whole sentence? If so what should the following sentence say? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I boldly deleted 2 paragraphs which I think are excess detail - if anybody thinks they are correct they might like to add them to Modern history of Ukraine instead Chidgk1 (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

NATO

According to the news regarding the invasion of Russia 2022 Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. 2601:542:C002:E6A0:B44E:1AC2:56BE:596A (talk) 14:11, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Where in this article does it say they are? It might be good to have more people from non-NATO countries answering on this talk page and editing the artice. Maybe you could ask at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_India etc Chidgk1 (talk) 06:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

"heavy Communist and Socialist influence" over the Ukrainian national movement for self-determination, which allegedly arose first after October 1917?

This sounds suspiciously close to the red-baiting distortions in Putin's speech yesterday. The article itself lists the Ukrainian People's Republic, the Hetmanate, the Directorate and the Bolshevik Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, the West Ukrainian People's Republic, the Hutsul Republic and, farther below, Makhno's Free Territory. Of these, only the Bolshevik entity was 'Communist', and the Hetmanate wasn't socialist at all. The Directorate was majority-liberal under Ostapenko when it was hoping to get support from the Entente. Yes, the other regimes mentioned were officially more or less socialist-leaning, as was typical of most radicals and revolutionaries at the time, and that is well worth mentioning, but placing 'communist' first makes no sense. Describing the socialist aspect as 'heavy' sounds negative as well as subjective and dubious; apart from Makhno, the others were relatively moderate - radical socialism certainly isn't what Petlyura was primarily known for. Furthermore, the article itself makes it clear that the Ukrainian nationalist movement started at least as early as the 1840s with Shevchenko, not after the 1917 revolution as suggested later; the demand or autonomy after the February revolution may well be regarded as part of the movement for self-determination, and the formal bid for independence was launched in opposition to the October revolution, not as an expression of its 'Communist influence' as the wording implies.--178.249.169.67 (talk) 00:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks but it's not clear exactly what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Can anyone comment on whether http://riowang.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-hutsul-republic.html is a reliable source? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:47, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Per this list of perennial sources, we generally do not consider Blogger or blogspot.com as a reliable source because content there is self-published. So far I see no indication that the author(s) creating those blog posts are experts in modern Ukrainian history, which would theoretically exempt this source in particular, so I'd err on the side of caution and not include them in the article. Thanks! ‍ ‍ elias. 🧣 ‍ ‍ ^{💬reach out to me}
_{📝see my work} 08:50, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Forgot to @; pinging @Chidgk1 as courtesy. ‍ ‍ elias. 🧣 ‍ ‍ ^{💬reach out to me}
_{📝see my work} 08:50, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Deleted "heavy Communist and" - can you suggest a better source for the remaining text in the paragraph? Chidgk1 (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

What do you think about excerpting non-contentious sections?

I guess editing of this article is likely to remain heavily restricted for a long time?

Like I did with the energy subsection I am thinking of replacing with excerpts some more of the sections or subsections which are not likely to be contentious. For example Wildlife of Ukraine to the biodiversity section. This would allow far more people to be able to bring/keep the information up to date. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity

Very one sided opinion. Would like to add that the ousting of Yanukovych was done illegally and was rightly labelled as a coup

[[3]]

HelenHIL (talk) 23:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

HelenHIL We cannot write "was rightly labelled as a coup" as the source does not show that was a consensus opinion. If you want to propose text saying that was the opinion of certain academics please propose exactly what you would like to add (and delete if any). Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You can reopen by changing "answered=yes" to "answered=no" above Chidgk1 (talk) 06:27, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes you are right it's not a consensus opinion. I think the best is to change "However, Members of Parliament voted on 22 February to remove the president and set an election for 25 May to select his replacement" with "The Parliament voted 328-0 to remove Yanukovich from his post and to schedule a presidential election for 25 May. This vote violated the impeachment process specified by the Ukrainian Constitution, which would have involved formally charging Yanukovych with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote—at least 338 votes in favor—in Parliament. Instead, Parliament declared that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency" as the reason for early elections." To be the same as here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Removal_of_Yanukovych It's shows both sides. HelenHIL (talk) 17:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

HelenHIL Sorry this article already has too much detail (I should not have misled you by writing "if any" above) and your suggestion would add more. See Wikipedia:Summary style. I think your only chance is to start a new talk page request with a suggestion which would shorten the "Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity" section as a whole. I'll stop commenting here on this and also leave it to another editor if you make a new request - so you will know it is not just me who thinks like this. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Clarifying the description of Ukraine's poverty, GDP, and corruption ranks

See introduction, paragraph 4, sentence 2: "It is the poorest country in Europe, suffering from a very high poverty rate as well as severe corruption." Part of this is not true. I recommend that that should be replaced with the following text and references:

"While it is the second poorest country in Europe, it has a low poverty rate." Reference 1: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.UMIC?locations=UA

"It is ranked as the 58th (out of 180) in perceptions of corruption." Reference 1: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 Aanders08 (talk) 20:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Hyperlink under "the poorest" should be changed from "List of sovereign states in Europe by GDP (nominal) per capita" into "List of sovereign states in Europe by GDP (PPP) per capita" and we can add a statement "the poorest acc. to GDP (PPP) per capita" or something similar. NeonFor (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Aanders08 NeonFor I am a bit confused as someone has made some changes to the lead (introduction) already, so I am closing this request. Could you possible have a look at the "Economy" section and if that is wrong start a new talk section here to fix that first. Once we have that right it will be easier to see if the lead needs more change. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I want help join ukrine military. I want to join

Pls how suggist me 2402:3A80:E1B:3E43:0:18:CD28:DD01 (talk) 06:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a "how to" guide. But you can read International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine Chidgk1 (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Read heading outside important for ukraine Jimgeer (talk) 19:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Try to search for ways to accomplish your goal on the internet, Wikipedia isn't the best place for what you're asking. IMiss2010 (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Adequate historically and geographically correct moderation

I suggest that changes to this wikipedia article be not influenced by emotion nor motivation to change the course of history. Therefore I suggest that a trusted and hopefully large committee of historians and geographic experts (e.g. at least academic, professors) are set-up to moderate the changes to this lemma. Don't know who they are, and probably they themselves don't know that they are eligible, but it should be possible to compile a list of the experts on this topic on their merit, preferably before 2014-2022.

So please, fellow wikipedians, can you add to this talk section and identify/propose moderators with sufficient and objective authority, that can weed out subjective and even fake modifications and keep the balance? This proposal is not to disable the power of wikipedia laymen to add facts, but to prevent unbalanced adding and inaccurate adding of text.

Please let me know! Always interested in the facts! Greatest resource for ever! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auvideo (talk • contribs) 18:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

It's up to you to suggest changes. Go ahead suggest: "please change X to Y". Chidgk1 (talk) 20:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Among the poorest countries in Europe

Ukraine remains the second-poorest country in Europe, after Moldova. So there should be a mention about that on the lead's third para. Either that or "Ukraine is among the poorest countries in Europe". I don't know why it got removed entirely, when it could've just gotten fixed. It is an important info. Thesickreservoir (talk) 18:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

changed "a high rate of poverty" to "among the poorest countries in Europe". Hope that answers your point. If not if you have time you might like to first fix Economy of Ukraine and then request its lead to be excerpted here Chidgk1 (talk) 05:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

FAQ; France vs. Denmark

I'm sure people will more likely ask about Denmark than France. Can anyone change the (currently only) question in the FAQ so that it talks about Denmark?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

You should be able to change it yourself by clicking "edit" near the big question mark. Any problems let us know. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

How much of Kazakhstan is in Europe

This line is wrong, " It is the second-largest country by area in Europe after Russia", because Kazakhstan has more land in Europe than Ukraine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:D196:2BFE:29FB:7397 (talk) 14:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that statement? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

No, only ~148,000 of Kazakhstan's ~2.7 million square kilometers is in Europe as commonly defined. Kazakhstan as a whole is bigger than Ukraine, but that isn't what this is about.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:35, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

How does Kazakhstan have more land in Europe than Ukraine, which spans over 600,000 square kilometeres? That's completely untrue. Its even hard to find reliable sources mentioning that Kazakhstan even lies in Europe. Even most geographers consider it to be only in Asia. The line is ambiguous, and Kazakhstan's European part does not have a specified land area, only estimates. One thing's for sure, the area is definitely below 200,000 square kilometres. Ukraine, by far, has the second-largest land area in Europe. Thesickreservoir (talk) 16:09, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 March 2022

Change Government section in infobox from Unitary semi-presidential republic to Unitary semi-presidential republic under martial law

Blurengo (talk) 17:46, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

done Chidgk1 (talk) 17:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity

The article is one sided as they are other opinions. The Russian side and even prominent US academic John J. Mearsheimer have argued that it was a coup. Please change "However, Members of Parliament voted on 22 February to remove the president and set an election for 25 May to select his replacement" with "However, Members of Parliament voted on 22 February to remove the president and set an election for 25 May to select his replacement, a move that was described by Russians and even US academic John J. Mearsheimer as a coup"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/22/russias-putin-accuses-us-of-orchestrating-2014-coup-in-ukraine

HelenHIL (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. --N8 22:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done @HelenHIL: Thank you for providing specific changes to make! (So many people miss this.) In the future, providing full inline citations might also help requests get addressed faster since this makes it much easier for editors to move changes into the article. {{reftalk}} may help. Nonetheless, good WP:RSs -thank you. --N8 23:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Please make this protected or semi-protected

I have a request to make this a semi - protected (or maybe protected) as this is quite a touchy subject. as seen in this article, War crimes during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine people can easily be offended by this, or vandalise the page.Jacob7895 (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

hello Jacob7895 - you need to ask at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection Chidgk1 (talk) 13:54, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Link lost

Many visitors of this page come here in order to read about the current events. And these were only one click away, since the lead had

For the 2022 military conflict, see 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Unfortunately someone removed this link. I cannot edit this page but hope someone undoes this removal.

 Done Agree should make the current article as easy to find as poisible till over. --Moxy- 15:31, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine, specifically history, economy, culture, corruption.

Content all badly out-of-date. A lot has happened in the last 5-10 years. I am not equipped to suggest edits but am capable of noticing they are needed. 2600:1702:701:DF0:1907:422A:64C4:EC3D (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I suspect you are better equipped to suggest edits than I am. Go ahead and suggest - just don't be offended if other editors reject your suggestions. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Or if you prefer you or anyone could edit Economy of Ukraine and Ukrainian culture directly Chidgk1 (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

@2600:1702:701:DF0:1907:422A:64C4:EC3D 49.36.107.92 (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Map of Ukraine

Please add this neutral Map of Ukraine to the article. I can't edit. Greetings Lencer (talk) 07:46, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

done thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Map has changed against climate map in the article? What kind of nonsens is this? There is no map with city names, but many readers are looking for this information. I can't understand. --Lencer (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Lencer If I remember right I added the map exactly as you requested above. If not please ping me to let me know as I am not watching this article. If anyone else made other changes you will have to take it up with them not me. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't want to criticize you at all and I will write to the responsible editor. Greetings Lencer (talk) 10:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Lencer No probs - I was not offended - just did not want to get involved in the discussion. Other ways you could proceed would be to mention editors by name from this talk page - like I just did with your name - or start a Wikipedia:Requests for comment in a new section on this talk page. Or do a lot of minor edits to build up your number - for example on Chinese Wikipedia despite knowing no Chinese I corrected a lot of external links on articles about places I knew. Or you could comment of the "excerpts" discussion below. Chidgk1 (talk) 05:29, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 March 2022

The previous map depicting in the template was more accurate to the current one,

I don't understand the necessarity for this change. LVTW2 (talk) 05:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: This would be something to discuss and garner consensus about. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

The new map says that Ukraine does not control whole Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, which is simply not true.

The old map has to be restored. You cannot simply change a map to a new one without providing any evidence on it. This country is in an ongoing war, so the real-world map changes every day. It has to be untouched until war settles down a bit so we will be able to provide an updated, more correct map. ObjectiveAnderson (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done, the country infobox is not for the day-to-day movement of a war. Only stable borders. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

impossible date

This can't be correct:

"Following an Avar raid in 602 and the collapse of the Antes Union, most of these peoples survived as separate tribes until the beginning of the second millennium BC.[37]"

Even if 602 means 602 BC, this would mean surviving as separate tribes while traveling more than a millennium backwards in time.

From the context earlier in the paragraph, this may be intended to mean:

"Following an Avar raid in 602 and the collapse of the Antes Union, most of these peoples survived as separate tribes until the beginning of the second millennium AD."

Awkward in English, but possible to be correct.

Or:

"... until the beginning of the second century BC."

I trust an expert in pre-Rus Ukraine will correct this.

Cordially, Joaquin — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoaquinMiller (talk • contribs) 22:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Not an expert and could not find in cite, but looking at the article for one of the people pretty sure BC typo so removed and asked for quote. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Help from projects

...Message sent to Wikiprojects.... Lets try and cleanup the article. As of now its full of unsourced info and full of excerpts that dont allow us to monitor changes to the article and has many subpart references we normally dont use in country articles. Best get as many eyes on this considering whats going on.--Moxy- 17:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources

Needs lots in culture section. Can anyone list a few here?Moxy- 17:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC) Source 274 seems to be in the wrong place or just wrong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.180.0.3 (talk) 12:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Excerpts

Luckly we only have a few of these now used in sections that should be somewhat stable, but they should be replaced with better summary text here that we can monitor for changes here. Moxy- 17:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I think uncontroversial sections should be excerpts as then everyone can edit them Chidgk1 (talk) 07:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Will work on this ..this week ...fix it up normaly. Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page. {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained. Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for section title changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. Transcluded text may cause repeated links and no-text cite errors and have different established reference styles, varieties of English or date formats than the target page. Transclusions do not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.Moxy- 13:19, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

You don't think the advantage of anyone being able to edit outweighs the disadvantages? For example it seems unlikely anyone would edit war on Ukraine#Biodiversity. I had never heard of using the markup you mention, and as far as I can tell we don't need to use it here. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:18, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Definity not ..its why we have protection levels and it nakes it harder to edit not eaiser---Moxy- 23:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand - if your last comment is answering my previous comment please could you explain - or what are you trying to say exactly? I am open to being persuaded. Also if anyone else would like to comment it would be good to get a third opinion. As for the argument in favor of excerpts in a nutshell: 1) Some sections are not controversial 2) Everyone should be able to edit sections which are not controversial 3) Excerpts seem to be the easiest way to achieve that Chidgk1 (talk) 05:25, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Not interested in editing or watching multiple articles just to ensure all is OK here.....nor is anyone interested in have to sic protection levels across multiple articles. Also aricles should be able to grow on their own accord.....one should not be stifled by the other.Moxy- 05:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Regional languages

The list of regional languages should be removed from the infobox, as the law it's referencing to (uk:Закон України «Про засади державної мовної політики») was recognized as unconstitutional and is no longer valid since January 2018.

The new law, uk:Закон України «Про забезпечення функціонування української мови як державної», official English translation - https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/2704-19?lang=en#Text) became effective in 2019 and it lists Ukrainian as the only state language in Ukraine, which also corresponds to the Constitution of Ukraine. --EricLewan (talk) 12:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done..."“The state language in Ukraine is the Ukrainian language”. Neither the Constitution nor the Language Law in any way regulates the language of everyday communication. On the contrary, all citizens of Ukraine may communicate in any language of their choice and this is enshrined in the Constitutiont.".....Law is about "providing services and on products distributed within Ukraine - Law of Ukraine on Ensuring the Functioning of Ukrainian as the State Language.Moxy- 14:50, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 March 2022

Please spell Kyivan Rus according to the correct spelling of Kyiv 2001:1970:4F24:8700:8134:C919:EF20:2F53 (talk) 13:43, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done This is a topic for discussion at Talk:Kievan Rus'..but please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.Moxy- 14:56, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

edit request on 17 March 2022

180.242.233.106 (talk) 05:28, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‍ ‍ elias. 🧣 ‍ ‍ ^{💬reach out to me}
_{📝see my work} 05:38, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Zelensky or Zelenskyy? – feedback requested

The Ukrainian president is much in the news, and various spellings are used by reliable sources. Your feedback would be appreciated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine#Zelensky or Zelenskyy. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 March 2022

Grammatical edit // Section 2.14: Remove the word "on" from "...immediate admission to the European Union on in response to the invasion." Peterfblack (talk) 20:26, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Its time to put end of this Russian version of Ukraine map (with crimea and donpass light green) and put all full dark green. It makes no sense in the way its now. Ukraine is Ukraine and Russia has shown itself as occupier of not just those light green areas, put more than that. Also, Slava Ukraini from Estonia! --LeeMarx (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

You need to ask at https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk:Europe-Ukraine_(%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8B%D0%B5).png&action=edit&redlink=1 not here Chidgk1 (talk) 12:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources

Accumulating academic sources for the dispora section so it not a dictionary definition with no info.Moxy- 03:12, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

"Ukraine is one of the most migration-affected countries in Europe, with a diaspora of up to 20 million people, and 2.5 million labour migrants who contribute remittances of US$11 billion, which represents 10% of the country’s GDP. https://migrants-refugees.va/country-profile/ukraine/"

• Olga Oleinikova; Jumana Bayeh, eds. (14 October 2019). Democracy, Diaspora, Territory: Europe and Cross-Border Politics. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-00-071084-7.
• Liam Kennedy, ed. (5 January 2022). Routledge International Handbook of Diaspora Diplomacy. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-00-045079-8.
• Olena Stiazhkina (30 March 2021). Zero Point Ukraine. BoD – Books on Demand. pp. 243–. ISBN 978-3-8382-1550-1. OCLC 1222206356.

Print sources section is too long - can you fix?

I know sometimes if you delete this type of section a bot will put back the ones actually used - but not sure if that would work here - might try it if nobody else wants to try and trim it in a more knowledgeable way? Chidgk1 (talk) 12:09, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Moxy I searched "help" for "subpart references" you mentioned in an earlier section but could not find it - what does that mean please and is it related to these print sources? Chidgk1 (talk) 12:51, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Main map

Why is the map in a png file, it's clearer if it was in a svg file Hgh1985 (talk) 06:34, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Hgh1985 No idea - suggest you ask the experts at Wikipedia talk:Graphics Lab/Map workshop specifying which map. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:14, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Correction needed. The square milage is calculated wrong!

The square milage is calculated incorrectly! 603,628 sq kms equates to 375,077 sq miles not 233,090! 75.156.44.186 (talk) 03:08, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Moxy You seem to know more about country articles than me. If we look at the source of the featured article Japan it seems to be calculated automatically. So any idea why there is a comment here and in Template:Infobox country saying "Do not remove per WP:MOSNUM" ? Can we just delete "area_sq_mi" here and if so also change Template:Infobox country/doc? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:41, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

75.156.44.186 When I "preview" having deleted "area_sq_mi" it comes to 233,062 sq mi, so please check your calculation. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:41, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

This is incorrect, and an illustration of why "original research" is not allowed on Wikipedia. The error you are making is taking the LINEAR conversion of 1 mile = 1.609344 km and applying it to the measure of AREA, but in fact 1 sq.mi. = (1.609344)^2 or about 2.58998811 square km. Wilford Nusser (talk) 13:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Never seen a note like ""Do not remove per WP:MOSNUM" " before......for FA and GA articles we set them up like.... | area_label2 = Total land area | area_data2 = {{convert|9093507|km2|sqmi|abbr=on}}

-Moxy- 18:51, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks - who knows when they will get a peace deal but the km2 figure will undoubtedly change then - so will leave as is for now Chidgk1 (talk) 18:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Slava Ukraini needs more eyes

This article needs some more eyes. See especially this discussion.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:11, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 March 2022

water as percentage of area is wrong, it is 4.01%. According to this source, the total area is also wrong Source:https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/ukraine/#geography Heikocvijic (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:54, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Is the history section too long?

Like Talk:Ukraine/GA1 I think it is, as it is more than 50% of the size of History of Ukraine and there is also an article on Modern history of Ukraine. It is much longer than, for example United_Kingdom#History. Not offering to summarize as looks a big job but maybe there is someone out there who would like to? Chidgk1 (talk) 11:27, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Silly-boy-three I understand that you are adding more history because it is happening, but would you be able to shorten the history section as a whole? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Chidgk1, Silly-boy-three - I think it is a matter of deleting some paragraphs of lesser importance rather than restructuring the whole history section. I slightly altered the part and removed heavy repetition some time ago, but the content still doesn't sound right (at least chronologically; poor flow, long sentences etc. this needs to be addressed as well). Merangs (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi Chidgk1 and Merangs. I agree with Merangs. We'll see if I can help with this too.

Thanks, Silly-boy-three (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Chidgk1, Silly-boy-three Thank you for your contributions to the article. :) Merangs (talk) 19:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion, the history of Ukraine is actually a bit more convoluted than the history of the United Kingdom. The UK has its own very firm historical self identity, while Ukraine's historical self identity, down through the centuries has not always been so "cut and dry." Thus perhaps the need for more detail in Ukraine's history section. One of Putin's biggest arguments for trying to conquer Ukraine has been because he believe's that Ukraine is not "really" a country that is distinct from Russia. It's for this reason that I think our unusually detailed history section, which seems to make a good argument for the "reality" of the state of Ukraine. Silly-boy-three (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

@ 109,752 it's way to big.....the section should be around 50,000 to 60 at the most.Moxy- 03:23, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

It is quite long, but not as long as it was before, due to the trims. However, there are too many sections, and a lot of recentism - which is a big issue. The fact that the country is currently in a war expands the problems even more. Thesickreservoir (talk) 12:46, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Repeated sentence

In the Languages section, there's a repeated sentence as follows:

Hungarian is spoken in the Zakarpattia Oblast.[339] Hungarian is spoken in the Zakarpattia Oblast.[339] 92.4.183.194 (talk) 07:28, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Removed. Mellk (talk) 09:53, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Lead

The lead states Ukraine is the "second-largest by area in Europe" after Russia? Its the second-largest what? A country right? Who removed the word "country"? You can also simplify the sentence by simply stating that "Ukraine is the second-largest country in Europe, after Russia" Thesickreservoir (talk) 10:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

This sentence has gone through a lot of revisions and never seems to quite gel. It is trying to convey that, looking only at territories within the generally accepted limits of the European continent, Ukraine's territory is larger than that of any other country except Russia. The "within the generally accepted limits of the European continent" is needed, because both France and Denmark include territories outside of those limits that make them (as a whole) larger than Ukraine. The territories of France and Denmark within Europe are, however, smaller than Ukraine. It might be best to just remove this from the lead and only discuss it in the article, where the qualifications can be explained better. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

I do not think there's a solid reason to remove this sentence from the lead, as its very important. And besides, its a true geographical fact, and there's nothing "controversial" here. Ukraine is the second-largest country IN Europe. France and Denmark (jonas) are only larger when considering their territories outside of Europe, and why should the latter be included anyway? In that case, we can also include Siberia, and then what? When we say Europe, we mean the continent of Europe. There's also a FAQ above for that. Thesickreservoir (talk) 13:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

The fact that there is an FAQ about this shows that people don't understand what is being said here. It is also true that it is the largest country "in Europe", as all larger countries have at least part of their territory outside of Europe. Unless the sentence is phrased extremely carefully, it is going to be open to misinterpretation. Also, it is not "very important", it's trivia. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:25, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

"It is also true that it is the largest country "in Europe", as all larger countries have at least part of their territory outside of Europe."

Its basic geography. Every continent has its limits. For Europe, its the Ural Mountains. The lion's share of Europe lies within Russia's western borders, roughly 40%. Ukraine is not the largest country in Europe, not even close, but the second-largest. Russia's European territory is about 6 times that of Ukraine.

France and Denmark are much smaller than Ukraine, when it comes to territory on the continent. Reunion, Guiana, or Greenland aren't in Europe. No reliable source claims France, or alternatively Denmark, is the second-largest country in Europe. Nor does anybody consider a territory located in one continent as part of another continent. Thesickreservoir (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

France and Denmark are still "in Europe", English is sadly not that clear. I would agree with Khajidha that this is a bit of trivia that is probably not worth focusing on in the lead. CMD (talk) 13:52, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think a description about a country's geographical position is trivial. Every major reliable source, including Britannica, refers to Ukraine as the second-largest country on the European continent. One can easily use multiple reliable sources to back the sentence. I still don't know since when parts of France in South America and Greenland are considered "Europe" however....

https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine (Britannica): "Ukraine, country located in eastern Europe, the second largest on the continent after Russia."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18018002 (BBC): "Europe's second largest country, Ukraine is a land of wide, fertile agricultural plains..."

https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/geography/countries/article/ukraine (National Geographic): "Located in eastern Europe, Ukraine is the second-largest country on the European continent after Russia."

Thesickreservoir (talk) 13:57, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

"In Europe" could quite easily be taken to mean "entirely in Europe". And Ukraine is the largest country entirely in Europe. As Chipmunkdavis said, "English is sadly not that clear". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Its abnormal to sideline 40% of Europe's landmass, just to state Ukraine is the largest country "entirely" in Europe. Seems superficial. And besides, a little tweak could fix the entire issue. It is the second-largest country within Europe, after Russia, which it borders to the east and north-east.

Also, see List of European countries by area. Thesickreservoir (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

You call it "abnormal", I call it "the only way to be completely clear" what you mean. It's not that French Guiana and Greenland are considered part of Europe, it's that they are parts of the countries France and Denmark. When you list the "largest countries in Europe" it is ambiguous as to whether you are ranking them by the amount of territory they have as a whole or just on territory within Europe. You'll notice that even the list you linked to explicitly excludes territories outside of Europe from the ranking. None of the versions you have suggested do that. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Europe - as in the continent of Europe. Excluding non-European territories of transcontinental countries, or overseas territories. Ukraine is the second-largest country by area within Europe's continental limits, after Russia's large western part. I'm sure Greenland or Reunion does not have land area within Europe, or even fall within the limits of the continent. As I have listed above, multiple reliable sources, mention Ukraine as the second-largest country in Europe.

Or another sentence could be used "It is the second-largest country on the European continent, after Russia, which it borders to the east and north-east." This should be clear enough. Thesickreservoir (talk) 15:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

"Ukraine is the second-largest country by area within Europe's continental limits". Still not clear. Because the country of Russia is not "within Europe's continental limits". What is meant is that "Ukraine's territory within Europe's continental limits is larger than the territory within Europe's continental limits of any country other than Russia". All that these reliable sources prove is that other writers are also phrasing things poorly. And your "second-largest country on the European continent" is still less clear. As Denmark, France, and even Kazakhstan are "countr[ies] on the European continent". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:14, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

"Ukraine's territory within Europe's continental limits is larger than the territory within Europe's continental limits of any country other than Russia"

That's one way to overcomplicate a simple sentence, most people would not read through the entire sentence, and even if they do, they'll still be left confused.

And, it seems most people have phrasing problems according to you. And, since you're now challenging reliable sources, which Wikipedia is literally based on, there will be no outcome of an argument with you. Why haven't you dragged Turkey in yet, by the way? That's really weird considering you didn't even spare Kazakhstan.

Europe is a continent, spanning some 10 million square kilometres, and within it, Ukraine's land share is the second-largest. Kazakhstan's territory in Europe doesn't even land it in the top 10. Not to mention literally nobody in the world considers it a part of Europe. The countries you mention are partially in Europe, but their European parts do not make them the second-largest country in the continent. Thesickreservoir (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead also has a grammatical mistake making the relative position of Russia and Ukraine swapped from reality. Currently it says "It [Ukraine] is the second largest country in Europe after Russia, which it borders to the east and north-east." This should read "...which borders it to the east and north-east." Otherwise the sentence as it is written is claiming Ukraine is to the East and North-East of Russia. Fritzophrenic (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Fixed thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 12:06, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Mention invasion in hatnote?

I am starting a discussion on this to avoid an edit war. Should the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine be mentioned in the hatnote? I believe it should not per WP:RELATED, which states that an article should not be linked in a hatnote just because the articles are related. I think this is a clear violation of the guideline.

The current is:

{{About|the country of Ukraine|the ongoing conflict|2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine|other uses|Ukraine (disambiguation)}}

It should just be:

{{Other uses}}

--The Tips of Apmh 15:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes let's do what is best for our readers to find information. Can be removed when this calms down. There's clearly a benefit in having it there for ease of access...... as the title of the article may not be easy to search for or find. Always best to think of readers over the MOS when things make common sense Wikipedia:Readers first. Is it detrimental in some sort of fashion?Moxy- 00:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Which guideline states the ease of access for readers is a priority over the MOS? Isn't the purpose of the MOS to benifit readers in the first place? I'm willing to bet that a good majority of people who go to the Ukraine article aren't trying to specifically go to the invasion article. The Tips of Apmh 18:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Of course the invasion should be mentioned in a hatnote. Today for almost all people "Ukraine" is short for "the war in Ukraine" (and does not refer to its climate or agriculture). At some point in time the war will be over, and the hatnote will no longer be appropriate.2A02:A463:EC02:1:B62E:99FF:FE4C:71C3 (talk) 10:28, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

for almost all people "Ukraine" is short for "the war in Ukraine" (and does not refer to its climate or agriculture)

Do you have a source for that? The Tips of Apmh 13:44, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The invasion absolutely should not be included in a hatnote.  Ved havet 🌊 (talk)  14:22, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Suppression of language

>The tsarist autocracy established a policy of Russification, suppressing the use of the Ukrainian language and curtailing the Ukrainian national identity.[68] The western part of present-day Ukraine was subsequently split between Russia and Habsburg-ruled Austria after the fall of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1795.<

The source is hidden behind a paywall but concerns suppression of the language in the 1860s. Should the order of these two sentences not be reversed? If suppression was widespread I'd expect multiple sources to be available. Nine-and-fifty swans (talk) 21:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 April 2022

Minor yet valuable request to correct spelling from Kievan to Kyivan for consistency. (e.g. Kievan Rus' -> Kyivan Rus') Within the "Ukraine" page context it has a lot of sense to not mixup those spelling as the name of the capital is Kyiv, so all derivatives in it should have 'Kyiv' root accordingly.

Many thanks, Andrii

e.g.

change from:

The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture under Kievan Rus'

to:

The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture under Kyivan Rus'

and so on... Gooworld (talk) 08:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Our article is currently at Kievan Rus', if you wish for that title to change you should raise it at that talk page. CMD (talk) 11:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Islam in Ukraine

Muslims in Ukraine formed %0.9 (not a portion of the %0.2) of the population in 2016 according to this citation in the article Islam in Ukraine. It is more than %1 at the moment. Please update the article accordingly. 176.55.110.166 (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2022

Barry G. Korn, The Messiah and King of Ukraine 138.207.217.138 (talk) 04:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Resolution 68/262

The UN General Assembly immediately responded by passing resolution 68/262 declaring that the referendum was invalid and supporting the territorial integrity of Ukraine; only Russia voted against the resolution.

According to that resolution's article, there were 11 votes against the resolution. -- DevSolar2 (talk) 11:08, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Change map

Location of Ukraine/Archive 10 (green) Disputed territories (light green)

I heavily suggest that the map of Ukraine is changed back to the older version used before the invasion by Russia. The older one showed Ukraine's position in Europe while still showing the disputed territories (before the invasion). Thus showing why Ukraine is important to the continent. As well its is easier to see the location of Ukraine in the Europe rather than on a globe. -- Chxeese (talk) 16:56, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support I support this decision or even if we can have a switch between the two would be a lot better because we can barely see Ukraine on the current map. --Aaron106 (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Russian language

It is written here that the official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian. We see tens of people Ukrainians on TV these days during the war and all of them speak Russian. Only Mr Zelensky speaks Ukrainian. How is it possible? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.88.18 (talk) 01:02, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is the state language, as written in the constitution. Russian being widely spoken does not change this. Mellk (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

In addition, Zelensky was russian speaking and learned ukrainian when he became president because it is the official language. VanWagn (talk) 18:48, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 May 2022

Language ...

"Russian was within weeks of being declared as a regional language in several southern and eastern oblasts (provinces) and cities.[335] ..."

Replace sentence by:

"Within weeks, Russian was declared a regional language of several southern and eastern oblasts (provinces) and cities." VanWagn (talk) 18:44, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Done - thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 13:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

"Ihor Zhovkva" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ihor Zhovkva and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 24#Ihor Zhovkva until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:58, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Change "occupied/annexed territories" to "occupied/disputed territories"

Please change the image label "Location of Ukraine (green) Occupied/annexed territories prior to the 2022 Russian invasion (light green)" to "Location of Ukraine (green) Occupied/disputed territories prior to the 2022 Russian invasion (light green)" as it's the conventional way . PadFoot2008 (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

It's pretty evident that the territories are disputed, there isn't a need to respell that out. CMD (talk) 03:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah so correct it. PadFoot2008 (talk) 17:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Whether they are "occupied" or have been "annexed" is the dispute, using occupied/annexed makes that clear. A simple "disputed" would also be acceptable. The form "occupied/disputed" seems weird to me. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:39, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

"occupied/disputed" is either redundant or suggests Ukraine doesn't dispute the occupied territories. Neither is great. I do prefer "occupied/annexed" to a plain disputed, another alternative is the simpler "uncontrolled territories". CMD (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2022

Include history and presidency of Volodymyr Zelenskyy 92.0.43.10 (talk) 18:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 18:23, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2022 (2)

Add period from 2017 to 2022 including history and presidency of Volodymyr Zelenskyy 92.0.43.10 (talk) 18:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The history section here is already too long - perhaps you could add the info to History of Ukraine? Also it would be great if you could suggest changes to shorten the history section. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Still looking for someone to shorten the history section

As discussed earlier it is three-quarters the size of the main article, whereas I think it should be less than half.

Anyone needs a challenge and has time? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:11, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2022

Since the map keeps getting switch between the Globe and Europe view as it was done yesterday, can somebody add this? A switcher between the two so this can stop happening. --Aaron106 (talk) 02:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Aidan9382 _(talk) 14:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Aidan9382: Thank you, this map is probably more better to use in Globe rather than the other one people were using. Do you think you could replace it with this one? --Aaron106 (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Also  Done. Looks more inline with the globes of other country pages. Thanks for suggesting these! Aidan9382 _(talk) 16:14, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Aidan9382: User Chronus has gone and changed the map back again without consensus on talk page first. Can you fix this? --Aaron106 (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@Aaron106: Thanks for the notice.

@Chronus: May I ask why you changed the image back to the other version? The globe in your version has a different look to the normal use for other countries (E.g. UK, Italy, Russia), which is why I changed it in the first place. Aidan9382 _(talk) 01:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Aidan9382 "Normal use"? Is there any regulament that determines that? In "my" version, the Ukraine are centralize in the globe. Chronus (talk) 01:39, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Chronus: No, not as far as I'm aware. I assumed it would be a better idea to follow the seemingly normal design, as your version also has a darker line seperating each country opposed to the white line. If there is some sort of wikiproject about this or something, it might be worth asking them what the "standard" is, as I'm just here from an edit request. Aidan9382 _(talk) 05:54, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

The standard conventions are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps/Conventions/Orthographic maps, but there are different variations in use. CMD (talk) 06:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: Double check that URL, its not leading anywhere. It also loops to commons just to loop back to wikipedia. Aidan9382 _(talk) 06:58, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

That's me mixing up my WMF domains. Fixed. CMD (talk) 07:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Corruption

Mellk, there is an updated perceptions index in the body of the article (second sentence of Ukraine#Economy). The lead summarizes the body. That goes for the citations, too. The version you reverted to also uses Transparency International's corruption perceptions index but it is one that's two years old. They use the verb "rank" in both years. It's a synonym for "rate". Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 22:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Sure, it can be updated, but using the wording that it was rated the second-most corrupt country (based on CPI data) is highly misleading, because the CPI does not measure corruption (which is not possible), it measures perceived corruption in the public sector. Also, why is this not under a new section? Mellk (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Who said anything about measuring corruption? The perceptions of the degree of corruption — as seen by business people and country analysts — are scored on a scale of 0–100, from 0 for absolutely corrupt to 100 for absolutely clean of corruption. Transparency International then ranks the countries 1–180th according to the number of points scored, 1 indicating the country with the highest score (i.e., the lowest perceived corruption), 180 indicating the country with the lowest score (i.e., the highest perceived corruption). The wording you used (rated 120th out of 180 in the Corruption Perceptions Index for 2021, the second-lowest result in Europe after Russia) is unclear. It's actually the second lowest score for "clean of corruption" and the second highest perceived corruption ranking in Europe. "Second worst" fits both, second worst score on the 0-100 scale as well as second worst ranking in Europe on the 1-180 country list. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:10, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, if you think that wording can be improved there, feel free to improve. As for the lead, you changed the wording to, was rated the second-most corrupt country in Europe.[4] This is not supported. Simple. Maybe it might be better to include the ranking in the CPI instead in the lead, I don't have an opinion on this. Mellk (talk) 17:44, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a very solid history of Ukraine that devolves upon the 2022 invasion. Information should not be jingoistic but stick to a fair telling of facts. The entire section, particularly after the second paragraph, has not aged well and mainly uses poor sources to report inaccurate information.WGyp (talk) 16:01, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

WGyp Which section are you talking about and what does "devolves upon" mean here please? What is inaccurate? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Location map in the infobox

The map of Ukraine within Europe shows the separatist entities in the east in a lighter shade of green. The globe map does not. Both are viewable with the radio buttons though the globe view is shown by default.

Is there a consensus on whether these separatist entities should be shown on the map in the infobox? I can't be bothered to go through the history to find out how long the separatist entities have been shown on either of these maps, but obviously they should be consistent.

If it needs to be restored here is the version of the "map of Ukraine within Europe" without the separatist entities highlight: File:Europe-Ukraine_(disputed_territory).svg.

Thanks,

Rob984 (talk) 17:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC). CMD (talk) 02:23, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Ongoing armed conflicts this seems not to be the case, see Syria, Libya and Yemen. Though countries with long-standing ceasefires such as Moldova and Azerbaijan have rebel-held areas indicated. I don't know if there was ever a long-term ceasefire in Ukraine? Rob984 (talk) 22:58, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Those are cases of civil wars rather than secessions, although the point that we shouldn't be tracking current events is broadly true. Whether an event is current or not should not be determined solely by a ceasefire, however in this case our maps along with most external source maps reflect the control left in place by the Minsk agreements. CMD (talk) 00:56, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Rob984, CMD Can we get a vote on this? It's confusing for users visiting the page to see no eastern green areas on the globe and them showing them on the Europe view. --Aaron106 (talk) 17:38, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Support to Ukraine

Please, show us your support and rename the "Odessa" article to "Odesa". Because Odesa is the correct spelling of the Ukrainian city. 46.98.140.213 (talk) 04:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

See WP:COMMONNAME. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 04:40, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei (talk) 00:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Member of the UN since creation

Is Ukraine a state Member of the UN since its creation? How can Ukraine be a member of the UN without being independent? 2A02:8425:642:D701:BF55:9F65:2A1C:85EB (talk) 08:38, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

1) Yes, Ukraine was an original member of the UN. 2) Because the UN founders said it could. Aside from Ukraine and Belarus (whose memberships were pushed for by the Soviet Union), India, the Philippines, and New Zealand were founding members that would not be considered to have been fully sovereign at the time of the UN's formation if judged by current standards. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:32, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Soviet Union was a founding member (succeeded by Russia), as well as Ukrainian SSR and Belarusian/Belorussian SSR. Mellk (talk) 21:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Recentism

Hello, I have a slight suggestion to make. The sections "Euromaiden and Revolution of Dignity" and the Russo-Ukrainian War sections that come after that should be put under one section: "Euromaiden and the Russo-Ukrainian War." 8 years do not need three separate sections, one catch-all section suffices. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:4056:C39C:E04C:1C5C (talk) 03:02, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The events covered are distinct enough to warrant individual sections, as evidenced by their individual main articles. WelpThatWorked (talk) 18:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

ukraine coastline no longer borders the sea of azov

Russia has control of the coast of the sea of azov, the article should be updated to reflect this. Rqpaine (talk) 00:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, Russia's, but it's illegal, it's just mean capture of actually Ukrainian territories. Almost any country in the world recognizes these captures, because it isn't legally Artekimus (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Correction: doesn't recognize* Artekimus (talk) 16:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Artekimus:, I agree with you here 100% that it’s illegal and that it’s Ukrainian territory. I would like to add that very few countries recognize the invasion of Crimea or the fake “republics” DNR and LNR. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine GDP per capita

Hello, additional edit needed to this article. According to already existent source, GDP Per Capita in Ukraine (2021) is 4,830 USD, not 4,380 USD. Same with overall GDP, GDP (PPP) and GDP (PPP) Per Capita. Sieniuk (talk) 15:23, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Done - but I don't know how to remove the word "estimate" after "2021" Chidgk1 (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Grand Duchy of Lithuania

I hope you will not be against the fact that I added the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to the formation of Ukraine. This year, historians of the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory, justifying all stages of the formation of Ukrainian statehood, added the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to the list of subjects of Ukrainian statehood. It is not in the text of Volodymyr Zelenskyi's decree. In the article prepared by historians of the institute for the Day of Ukrainian Statehood, it is noted that since the middle of the 14th century, Ukrainian lands became part of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

"The actual successor of the traditions of Russia was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, one of the largest states in Europe at that time. Economically and culturally, the Russian lands were much more developed than the Lithuanian ones. Russian elites formed the face of the Lithuanian state. Many norms of Russian law, titles of positions, estates, management system, etc. were learned. Russian became the state language of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which was used for business papers," says the article of the Ukrainian Institute of National Remembrance. The main source of law was "Ruska Pravda", and later "Lithuanian Statutes" based on it. Ukrainian lands within the Grand Duchy of Lithuania enjoyed wide autonomy.

On Thursday, July 28, the President of Lithuania Gitanas Nauseda spoke at the meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. He presented the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyi with the Order of Vytautas the Great - the highest award of Lithuania. Uliana245 (talk) 18:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved: Closing per WP:SNOWBALL. While I can't find any RM on this topic, this issue has been discussed before, including, but not limited to, these discussions: [5][6][7][8][9][10][11]. (non-admin closure) Spekkios (talk) 02:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

---

Ukraine → The Ukraine – While this article is currently titled "Ukraine," and that is the politically correct term for the country that is used predominately as of late, the fact remains that for a significant period of time up until the very recent present, including in reliable sources, the country was referred to as "The Ukraine." I do not necessarily support the article being renamed as such per se, but while there is any ambiguity as to the name in official sources, I think we should have a move request debate in order to establish consensus. I feel that as it is, with the large number of older yet still reliable and authoritative sources using "The Ukraine," it would benefit maintaining rigor in wiki policy to fully establish use of "Ukraine" as 100% supported by reliable sources before taking it for granted. While I understand many people are very emotional about this issue, we have to remember that our job is to use the name most referenced by reliable authorities, including ones that aren't just contemporary news articles, not the name a certain people or nation may prefer for themselves if it is not extensively documented enough in secondary literature. So while I know many people will support "Ukraine" as the proper name on a kneejerk basis, let us keep the older and still largely relevant and reliable sources saying otherwise in mind. Please use as many sources as possible to support your claims in this debate, including older and non-Western/Eurocentric ones. 2601:405:4400:9420:50B5:BD47:2846:F0B (talk) 22:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose and speeedy close. WP:SNOWBALL. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 22:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  I think this issue is controversial enough and has enough literature on both sides that it doesn't deserve a speedy close. Is there a reason you support speedy close rather than providing evidence against the move? I just think a debate would be healthy to consider relevant sources using both forms of the name. 2601:405:4400:9420:50B5:BD47:2846:F0B (talk) 23:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  ""The Ukraine" is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London."[12] Saying it is recent only makes it WP:RECENTISM. I don't think I want to "discuss" anything. The request is flawed and nothing we discuss will produce anything. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  My claim is that the insistence on usage of "Ukraine" is recentism, because it's only been predominant in the media for a decade or two, whereas "The Ukraaine" was used in countless reliable secondary sources for much, much longer. So citing WP:RECENTISM actually helps my point in this matter. 2601:405:4400:9420:50B5:BD47:2846:F0B (talk) 23:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Having read the article you would have read this: "After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians probably decided that the article denigrated their country [by identifying it as a part of Russia] and abolished 'the' while speaking English, so now it is simply Ukraine". Kiev was moved to depart it from the Russian influence; Odessa was moved to depart it from the Russian influence. There is no reason to move this page to a Russian-influenced title solely because *you* think it is more appropriate despite the lack of evidence. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:19, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Ukraine is typically referred to without the "the". O.N.R. ^(talk) 23:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  You're correct that it typically is, but this is a relatively recent phenomenon, even in the 90s plenty of reliable Western and non-Western sources used the "the." While it's one thing to keep names up-to-date, I still think this is recent enough that the preponderance of the sources suggesting usage of "The Ukraine" deserve some weight. 2601:405:4400:9420:50B5:BD47:2846:F0B (talk) 23:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose and speedy per WP:SNOWBALL. Current common name is "Ukraine". It was Ukraine in 2003 on enwiki: [13] and major English language media use Ukraine now: [14], [15], and [16]. No reason for change given. Skynxnex (talk) 23:19, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose and snowclose.--Ortizesp (talk) 01:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Oppose and snowclose. Sorry, but the name of the state is not used in the plural, the official name does not contain the words "States", "Kingdom", "Republic", "Emirates", "Union", "Coast", "Territory", and after all, Ukraine is not an island state. If Ukraine suddenly changes its name to "Ukraines", then you can add an article. Although in general, I do not understand, why do you lift this skeleton from the closet? This article has not been used for more than 30 years. Have you not noticed how it is elementary important for Ukrainians that Ukrainian cities are written in foreign languages ​​in Ukrainian, not in Russian transliteration: KyivNotKiev, OdesaNotOdessa, ChornobylNotChernobyl or PrypiatNotPripyat.--Uliana245 (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Russia is not located in Europe

I suggest changing the sentence describing how ukraine is the second largest country in Europe. Only a small part of Russia is actually located in Europe and traditionally Russia is described as eurasian rather than European. Ukraine however is located in Europe entirely. 83.233.148.202 (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

You may want to consult an atlas. Mellk (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Russia is still the largest country in Europe even if it had only its European part. Georgia guy (talk) 16:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Holodomor in lead.

There is a particular sentence in the lead section that talks about the Holodomor. The sentence states the famine was caused by Stalin. Would it be possible to change the sentence to reflect the nuance and point readers to the corresponding articles and scholastic work on the Holodomor? FictiousLibrarian (talk). 18:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@FictiousLibrarian: I wrote that by shortening a previous sentence but I believe that nuance belongs in the body of the article, as if nuance was put in the lead the lead would become too long. I am not an expert but I understand historians dispute whether Stalin caused the famine deliberately or by accident. But I think adding that nuance would be too much detail for the lead. You are right the wikilink was poor - so have linked Causes of the Holodomor. As you are interested in history it would be great if you could improve and hopefully shorten the history section of this article. Chidgk1 (talk) 11:42, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know, "caused by Stalin" is correct. The great hunger also caused deaths outside Ukraine, but most victims were Ukrainians. The question still under debate is whether Stalin targeted Ukraine specifically (to put an end to nationalist tendencies there) or whether he targeted all rich farming areas (to suppress resistance against collectivation). Rsk6400 (talk) 16:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@Chidgk1:, @Rsk6400: Various other high-ranking Soviet leaders such as Molotov and Kaganovich were responsible for the famine. So it is wrong to say that the famine was caused only by Stalin, as specified in the lead. Stalin was among the perpetrators, not the sole perpetrator. The current wording suits the lead the best, if any reader wants to get more info over the Holodomor, they can click on the main article. Stuntneare (talk) 11:16, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

pronunciation of Taras Shevchenko

Is [tɐˈrɑz ɦrɪˈɦɔrowɪtʃ ʃeu̯ˈtʃɛnko] correct? Why isn't Тарас tɐˈrɑs? And how is Леся Українка pronounced? --Espoo (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you ask at Talk:Taras Shevchenko Chidgk1 (talk) 15:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Section on 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine needs to be re-instated

While Putin has asked that Wikipedia not list Russia's invasion of Ukraine as an "invasion," I think that this has been the most notable war in recent Ukrainian history, and that it deserves its own section in this article again. It had its own section from February through August then without any discussion here, others deleted this section and muddled up the recent history of Ukraine so that it's not even in chronological order any more. The person who tried to kill this article around the end of July by trying to merge it with another article did so anonymously without even a user-name. Thoughts? Perhaps this article needs more editorial restrictions? Silly-boy-three (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Re anonymous I assume you mean the rename request. That was overwhelmingly rejected. I don't think this article needs more restrictions. As for history if you have a specific request feel free to ask in "change X to Y" format. Or there are plenty of minor fixes which would be very useful on other articles to increase your number of edits so you could then presumably edit this article yourself. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

First Reference to the Russo-Ukraine War

The article introduction mentions "pre-war" before mentioning the Russo-Ukrainian War. The terrority that is the Ukraine has been a part of several wars, including World War II. The introduction could benefit from a proper first Reference. 173.72.189.180 (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I assume your request is to change "pre-war" to "pre-Russo-Ukrainian War". If not please clarify. But I'll let someone else answer.Chidgk1 (talk) 14:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

 Note: since the phrase pre-war Ukraine is used twice in the intro section (and the phrase has already been discussed on this talk page once above) this is probably a good discussion topic here but it's not really an edit request until there are suggested changes (see making requests). Hopefully one of the 250+ active watchers of this page can chime in with some proposed improvements or be bold and just make them. Closing this for now but please re-open or submit a new one with specific changes if needed. --N8_wilson 🔔 03:50, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 September 2022

The introduction of the article states that "Despite having a free-market economy, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe by nominal GDP per capita". This implies that free market/laissez-faire policies are synonymous with a strong economy, which is a highly politically biased thing to state, and is also contradicted within the same sentence as it then goes on to states that Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. As such, the part of the sentence before the comma should be removed. 49.228.97.45 (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done Madeline (part of me) 15:40, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

white stork as a national bird of Ukraine

Hello,
I cannot understand if the white stork is a national bird of Ukraine (perhaps not the only one); in 2019 it was portrayed in the PostEurop EUROPA series stamps that had a "national birds" theme that year.

more about this here:
Talk:White_stork#peace_symbol_on_first_russian_PostEurop_1995_stamp
--151.44.32.191 (talk) 22:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

151.44.32.191 I guess it would be a nice pic for the biodiversity section - but before we decide have you got a cite re national birds and what should the caption be? I am going to let another editor decide as I don't know whether the bottom right "Z" is offensive nowadays. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Reword sentence with "five-digit inflation rates"

Change "and suffered five-digit inflation rates" to "and suffered from hyperinflation that peaked at 10,000 percent in 1993". Current phrase is too generalized so as to be inaccurate. Also, its citation is a dead-link. Please add or exchange with archived link. Grorp (talk) 00:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: Added the archive link. Another editor should review the change in wording. SWinxy (talk) 18:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Grorp Done thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Map

How is crimea claimed “but not controlled” prior to the 2022 invasion? It’s been controlled for 8 years now Goblintear (talk) 08:16, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The subject of this article is Ukraine, not Russia. CMD (talk) 09:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh. U right Goblintear (talk) 12:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Area

"Prior to the Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine covered approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi), and was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people."

This is incorrect. Ukraine still covers approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi). The United Nations General Assembly quite unambiguously recognized territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders and reject the annexation of the peninsula. No reasoning is provided as to why this article should consider territory occupied by Russia as dispited except for a mere statement that it is "disputed." Disputed by whom? An occupation government? DoctorWhutsup (talk) 11:03, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Hope new title above is better - if not feel free to change back. Please could you say exactly what change you want in change "X" to "Y" form, for example change ""Prior to the Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine covered approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi), and was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people." to "Ukraine covers approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi). Prior to the Russo-Ukrainian War it was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people." Chidgk1 (talk) 11:57, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, the new title is much more appropriate.

Your version is perfectly fine since it is now more factually clear and presents accurate representation of events, including unfortunate population shortage. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 12:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Personally I would support the example change but it will be best if you get a consensus otherwise someone else might just revert it. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template.

Remove “Pre-war” from description of the size of Ukraine.

Describing the size of “pre-war” Ukraine is tantamount to accepting Russian claim to Ukrainian territory. To say ukraine WAS a certain size is incorrect. Ukraine IS an internationally recognized size, which includes all occupied and illegally annexed territory. “Pre-war” must be removed from the opening paragraph, if this page isn’t run by Russian bots. 174.208.227.195 (talk) 17:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

“Prior to the Russian invasion” is just as problematic. The only accurate way of describing this is “Ukraine covers an area of..” Explain to me why people disagree. Wolf359Locutus (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Simply put, if you don't control a territory it ain't yours. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:19, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Simply put, nonsense. That is not how this works.

Futhermore, the statement "prior to the war" is factually incorrect as the war is going on right now: it has not yet ended. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 11:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I have put the word "ongoing" back in. As for the rest please read the "consensus" link above Chidgk1 (talk) 12:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure it is. Ukraine might not like it. You might not like it. Hell, I might not like it. The UN might even speak against it. But the fact on the ground is that that region is functionally part of Russia now. In other words, "internationally recognized" means nothing if you can't back it up. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:25, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources routinely and consistently state these territories are still Ukrainian. The country still exists, and the front lines are fluid. This is a Pandora's box of original research. Tartan357 (talk) 04:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the front lines are fluid. Which is why you can't say what the area of Ukraine currently is. The only definitive statement you can make is what it was before the war started. And your statement that "prior to the war" is factually incorrect due to the war being ongoing is nonsense. Events of peacetime are just as much "prior" to a war that has just begun as they are to a war that has concluded. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Changed from "prior" to "at the start of" the invasion. Those are the most recent borders we have that were steady and unchanging. That's all there is to it. The point of that is that we can't say what the borders currently are, so I have always been in agreement with you there. Tartan357 (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 October 2022 (2)

107.133.135.145 (talk) 03:22, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

i want to word things a bit differently and fix a few grammar mistakes someone has left in the text

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you. Tartan357 (talk) 03:23, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 October 2022

Under "Courts and law enforcement", in the 4th paragraph, link the article "Viktor Yanukovych" to "President Yanukovych", please. Thanks! Kindly, WikiHelper0830. (P.S. This is a minor edit, so check that option if you do choose to edit.) WikiHelper0830 (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done CMD (talk) 07:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Terminology: 'occupied territories', not 'disputed territories'

For reasons I do not quite understand, several users seem intent on using the WP:POV term 'disputed territories', in sharp contrast to what reliable sources say. Surprisingly enough, this seems to be case not only for recent pro-Kremlin accounts but also for a number of good and established users, whose good intentions I don't doubt. Still, using 'disputed territories' plays straight into the Kremlin propaganda. More relevant for us, it violates WP:OR by applying a different terminology to what our WP:RS use. For the record, here are a few examples of highly reliable sources using 'occupied territories' in the last few days
CNN 29 September
The Guardian 29 September
Council of Europe 30 September
New York Times 29 September
BBC 30 September
NPR 30 September
Amnesty International 23 September
ABC News 30 September
NZ Herald 30 September
The terminology in reliable sources is clear. There is no reason, nor any justification in policy, to introduce our own terminology. Jeppiz (talk) 10:17, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

New Ukrainian. Borders

Please change the map to reflect new Ukrainian Russian borders. 2A04:4A43:47BF:B88B:79F9:FB9A:82E:1861 (talk) 08:23, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The borders have not changed, Ukraine has the same internationally recognized borders as before. Jeppiz (talk) 11:59, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The map should show disputed territories just like it does for most countries. Joseph Winowiski (talk) 19:50, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't see reliable sources calling those territories "disputed". If I steal your car, it's still your car, not a "disputed" car. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:55, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Tartan357 Rsk6400. I have seen you two make this same argument. So with all do respect, Can you two show me any reliable sources saying that the territories are not "disputed"? What im trying to say, is that saying that the territories are not "disputed" is like Russians calling The Russian Ukrainian war a special military operation..... "The special military operation" and the war are in reality, the same thing.--Zyxrq (talk) 00:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources call them "occupied". "Disputed" suggests there's at least some legitimacy coming from somewhere. Tartan357 (talk) 00:20, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

"Then Tartan357 Rsk6400 then we can say "disputed and occupied territories in light green." The reason im saying disputed in this case is because arnt there a lot of reliable sources calling Crimea disputed... if not we can just say "occupied territories in light green". isn't that reasonable?--Zyxrq (talk) 00:31, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

If there are some, find some recent ones. I haven't seen any recently that call it anything other than occupied/illegally annexed. Tartan357 (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Tartan357 another thing we can say is "Russian annexation of Ukrainian territories in light green" with a note saying the international community/UN considers the annexations illegal. or "Russian annexation of Ukrainian territories in light green. which is considered illegal by the international community/UN"..... Im also going to look for reliable sources for the other ideas above.Zyxrq (talk) 00:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The case of the 2022 annexation is a bit different from 2014. While in 2014 it looked pretty clear that Ukraine would not be able to recover the territories for a long period of time, now the war is ongoing. To avoid recentism (WP:RECENT), I think we shouldn't change the map at all. If we do, we'll have to change the map with every new turn on the battle-field. Rsk6400 (talk) 11:10, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Per capital income and HDI

If Ukraine was an African country people would have been very quick to change and downgrade its per capital income as well as its HDI like Libya, South Sudan or any other country in the Global South but Ukraine which has been ravaged by war for more than 7 months it's obviously it's per capital income has largely dwindled and so has its HDI. It should be changed Nlivataye (talk) 08:37, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

First of all, read WP:NOTAFORUM. Second, all reports of HDI are based on the official data released once a year; the HDI data released in 2022, for all countries, is from 2021. There will probably be a report next year based on the data from 2022. We update each time this new data become available. Jeppiz (talk) 08:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Then why is the per capital income not updated while others are and not a year has passed? Nlivataye (talk) 14:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

What? I'm sorry, I don't understand what your argument is. Jeppiz (talk) 15:17, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Maps

I forked the maps into two directions, for 2014, and 2022 disputes https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_-_disputed_2014_(orthographic_projection).svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_-_disputed_2022_(orthographic_projection).svg I don't want to start a dispute, but I think there are many spots on Wikipedia and its various projects that depend on a specific timeframe for the map. Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 01:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The first is an exact copy of the current map (tagged for speedy deletion on Commons) and the second needs proper attribution (as it's entirely based on a map that is licenced under CC BY-SA 4.0). M.Bitton (talk) 01:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

M.Bitton, I appreciate all the work you put in, but the above map is a rare exception to good work you're usually doing. These are not disputed territories as the map claims, and making that claim violates WP:OR. Take a lot at any WP:RS and you'll see them labelled "occupied territories", not 'disputed'; using that label in Wiki-voice in conflict with the large consensus in our sources is not acceptable. Jeppiz (talk) 08:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Occupied and disputed are not mutually exclusive. The territories in question are disputed to the point a literal war is being fought over them. CMD (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Again, we go by WP:RS, which overwhelmingly use the term 'occupied', that is the WP:NPOV wording. Jeppiz (talk) 09:43, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Multiple adjectives can be applied to nouns without only one being NPOV. The English language is not so limited. CMD (talk) 09:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Very true, but (1) if one adjective is ambiguous and one is not, the second is usually better for an encyclopaedia; (2) for the third time, the description in reliable sources refer to 'occupied territories', not 'disputed territories' (the latter usage is almost exclusively reserved to pro-Russian fringes). Jeppiz (talk) 09:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Given neither of the current adjectives under discussion are ambiguous, (1) is not an issue. I am running under the assumption M.Bitton is not a pro-Russian fringe, and I don't see why this fringe should somehow warp the meaning of a really simple English word. I find the accusation M.Bitton has engaged in WP:OR for simply using an adjective (and quite a basic one at that) to be very poor. CMD (talk) 10:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: I'm sorry, but you are wrong. It's the map of Ukraine that is named as disputed and not the occupied territory as you seem to think. Following a request on the map workshop to have a raster image converted to svg, I created two maps: one (named appropriately) that shows the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine and another (a disputed one). Basically, it's just a name of a map that doesn't prevent the editors from adding the appropriate caption to the map. It's neither original research, nor a label made in WP's voice. As for what I think about the territories in question, I suggest you read what I wrote back then.

With regard to the occupied territory: I prevented some editors from overwriting the map on Commons and asked them to seek consensus here (the correct venue to discuss the changes). M.Bitton (talk) 12:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: My apologies, I stand corrected. I've seen so many users (mainly very recent or dormant ones) call the territories themselves disputed that I misread. Thanks for the explanation. Jeppiz (talk) 12:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. M.Bitton (talk) 21:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Annexed territories

• File:Europe-Ukraine (actual control).svg

I suggest this image could possibly replace the image at show map of Europe section if or when we are shown a map of the borders Russia has annexed. --Aaron106 (talk) 14:52, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

No to this map. Even when Russia claims its annexations, they are not recognised by international law Jlascar 13:18, 1 October 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlascar (talk • contribs)

I suggest that the full extent of Russian claims should be on the map, and not just occupied territories.--Zyxrq (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Obviously not, and stop that nonsense. You cannot just declare other territories are yours, it's as simple as that. Ukraine's borders are the same now as in 2000 and 2010. WP has become very sloppy at keeping the distinction between international law and fascist murderers. We do not strive for some imaginary neutrality between legality and criminals. Jeppiz (talk) 17:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I don’t believe this would necessarily be an endorsement of the annexation. The map for [[Russia]] has already added these disputed territories - it’s only fair that these are acknowledged in Ukraine’s as well. The international community has already condemned the referendums that have led to the annexation of Ukrainian territory, and there could be a fair chance that the recent “incorporations” may not last long. The reason WP is “sloppy” is because Wikipedia strives to maintain its political neutrality, and its importance in providing the hard facts in a complicated conflict (see: the Russian version) means it should remain as such. It is possible to acknowledge there is disputed territory without condoning or condemning. חביתוש ~ Havitush (talk) 17:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Russian claims are irrelevant, because Geneva conventions do not allow anything what Russian government have done. Geneva conventions clearly and unequivocally describe what occupation administration is allowed to do and what is not. Referendums and annexations are not allowed. Therefore, all these actions are null and void from a point of view of international law.

With regard to Crimea, there is one historical analogy that people usually forget: Annexation of Moldavia by Romania in 1918. Like annexation of Crimea, the Country Council vote occurred in the presence of the foreign (Romanian) army, so the analogy with annexation of Crimea is very obvious. What makes that analogy even more close is the fact that the annexation of Moldavia by Romania was not internationally recognized: it was not recognized by the the US and by most Western states, as well as by the USSR, and that is why nobody (except some Romanian nationalists) speaks about "restoration of historical integrity of Greater Romania".

I understand that early XX century standards are hardly applicable to XXI century events, however, we should be more or less consistent, so Crimea (which was annexed illegally, but some procedure was observed, at least formally) and other territories, which were literally conquered, and then "annexed", should be painted differently. Paul Siebert (talk) 17:42, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I now believe I have misunderstood the conversation at hand. I was not agreeing with Zyxrq’s observation that the full extent of Russian claims should be acknowledged, because, well… that’s pretty much all of Ukraine, as far as myself (and probably others) are aware. However, the attempt by Russia to claim territory via referendum, widely condemned as illegitimate and a sham, should be acknowledged as this has now created an active territory dispute that has taken the current war in a new direction.

I can appreciate your educated and academic perspective on this, Paul, and it’s clear you have more knowledge of the situation (and a lot more historical context) than I do - I’m just an average Joe putting their two pence into current world events - but I believe the significance of this annexation should be acknowledged through the addition of an up-to-date map. From what I can see, it looks like this territory is going to be out of Ukrainian hands for a good while, if the annexation of Crimea and nuclear threats are anything to go by. חביתוש ~ Havitush (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

We have to follow what WP:RS say, and there is no RS taking Russia's annexation seriously. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:00, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion on what I meant by full Russian claims of ukraine. The map above shows the territory occupied by russia. I'm talking about having the map show just the territories annexed by russia. Even better, we can have two maps. one for the occupation and one for the annexed territories.--Zyxrq (talk) 18:34, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

We don't need a map to show the occupation, we need one map to show the new annexations that Russia have done in light green. I suggested this map as it's roughly what the disputed borders will look like as we don't have one currently. --Aaron106 (talk) 21:25, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

In various disputes across Wikipedia, the maps show either occupied or annexed territories, but I do not know a case where there are both occupied and annexed territories that are different to each other to suggest as an analogy. Since this is an ongoing war and front lines are changing everyday, a map showing occupation is not as useful at this moment for country articles such as Ukraine and Russia. A map of annexed territories can be more stable for these articles, while a maps of occupied territories are more useful in articles covering the ongoing war instead such as the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 22:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

These map templates are a nuisance because they are primary but given a degree of importance. There should be a wikipedia wide clear consensus on how to treat disputed areas, not just on a case by case basis. I think the dark green should be the state as accepted by the UN. If an area is noted as in dispute by the UN it should only be shaded if the main state does not have effective control over that area. That would mean here that Crimea would be shaded but nothing else. I do not think we can say effective control is being exercised over the other areas if that is by armed force in a war situation, and when part of the claimed area is not even occupied. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I made the map before the annexation claims. It is an approximative and evolutive map of the situation on the ground, not of the claims. So far editors have been able to keep up with the moving frontline rather well. Given the scale of the map and its intented use in infoboxes, extreme precision is not necessary. GrandEscogriffe (talk) 18:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

@Eduardog3000: Your claim that the territories are "not occupied" is incoherent. This is described by every RS imaginable as being sovereign Ukrainian land occupied by Russia since 2015. Perhaps you're talking about the new map being proposed here? That's not the map in the article. The map in the article shows the lines of control since 2015. Tartan357 (talk) 00:09, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I was talking about the revision of the image at the time I made that edit. The image has since been changed back. However the name of the image is just "Ukraine - Disputed", which should be based on claims rather than occupation. eduardog3000 (talk) 02:26, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Absolute no to this new map. The current map shows the lines of control before the 2022 invasion because those were stable for years. They are the last stable lines of control. Lines of control for the newly-occupied land are shifting constantly, and this map would just give the false impression that Russia has a solid grip on vast swaths of land that are very much in flux. We should not be rushing to formalize the most recent land grab. Tartan357 (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

+1 Jr8825 • Talk 02:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Why not use the map and state in the legend that the frontline is moving? The problem with the last stable lines of control (they were not so stable in the Donbas, for that matter) is that they are clearly obsolete now. The two defensible maps in my opinion are the one above (factual approach) or showing all of Ukraine in one color (legal approach). GrandEscogriffe (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes to this map, it shows the de facto situation. Russia is occupying eastern and southern Ukraine, and with the annexation occurring today, this only makes sense to update the map. Without any bias whatsoever, this is the situation: Ukraine no longer controls southern and eastern parts of the country, and it is now contested (by the international community) Russian territory. CanadianOntarian (talk) 01:10, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Show me a single reliable source that refers to it as "Russian territory". Tartan357 (talk) 01:13, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Russian mandatory in schools

This Russian language was also mandatory in Poland, and i think in other former USSR states... so Ukraine was not an exception. It was usual, for this period.

2A02:A03F:615C:9C00:64A2:5975:AE33:156E (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Please could you specify exactly the change you want and then change above to "answered=no" - thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 18:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 October 2022

Add 'is' before 'in the process of joining the European Union...' at the end of the first section User136596 (talk) 01:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Rsk6400 (talk) 13:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

NATO Acceptance

To the best of my knowledge NATO rejected Ukraine from joining but it still supporting Ukraine. Change it to was trying to get into NATO not is. 2601:681:300:11B0:74FF:FC82:57A0:D662 (talk) 22:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

You need to provide a source for rejection. Mellk (talk) 23:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2022

typo - change "Initually" to "Initially" in the "19th and early 20th century" section. 212.132.250.107 (talk) 14:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Done; thanks for spotting it. Kleinpecan (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Map

Just like Russia's map on Wikipedia I think we should put the places that Russia occupies or annexed in light green as Crimea Nlivataye (talk) 08:24, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

We should not be reflecting a currently active war in the generic infobox location map. CMD (talk) 09:11, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I think if that's the case, if people have the feeling that this "annexation" is justified on Wiki, then we should mark the Kremlin as disputed territory as it had been claimed by UKRPoshta. https://gagadget.com/en/172603-ukrposhta-recognized-the-kremlin-as-its-territory-and-wants-to-open-a-post-office-and-psychological-services-there/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.79.192 (talk) 16:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The war could possibly devolve into a frozen conflict and it could be years before the war is over. We should at least show disputed terrorories. Joseph Winowiski (talk) 19:53, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

We're not concerned about what "could possibly" happen. The map shows Ukraine's borders, and they have not changed. Jeppiz (talk) 20:08, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

For the sake of consistency we should do exactly what is on the Russian article: mark recently annexed territories (like Crimea) as disputed. Nikolai Gennadievich Nazarov (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

This is literally NOT how this works.

The use of term "disputed," as it has alredy been mentioned above, suggests there's at least some legitimacy coming from somewhere.

Russia has no legitimacy to dispute anything on Ukrainian soil.

Furthermore, the war is still going on, and the "recently annexed territories" are not really annexed. Russia is losing ground AND parts of what they claim to be "Russian territory" every single day. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 07:59, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

If you are so concerned about constistency, why should we do exactly what is on the RUSSIAN article about Ukraine and not exactly what is on the UKRAINIAN article about Ukraine? Why both of those articles should in any way effect the ENGLISH article? There is literally zero logic to this statement. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 08:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

though Russia was not able to realize its stated objective of taking full control of the country.[165]

Change this to though Russian has not realized its stated objective because chances are they will, saying they were not able to sounds like they failed completely and utterly. 2601:681:300:11B0:74FF:FC82:57A0:D662 (talk) 22:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense.

First of all, no, there are no chances they will ever. This is an unsupported claim with zero no none reasoning.

Second of all, Wikipedia articles are not concerned with "chances" and what COULD happen. For now, Russians ARE failing completely and utterly. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 08:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Prior to the war

"Prior to the war, Ukraine covered approx 600,000 square kilometres"... The war has not changed this, only Russia's perception, and Russia does not have the authority to decide what is and isn't Ukraine. Therefore, it should say that "Ukraine covers approx 600,000 kilometres, and make no mention of that being different because of the war. Russian's ennexations are not recognised by law or the international community, therefore the size of the territory of Ukraine is exactly the same now as it was when the war started... ReticuliZ (talk) 18:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

OK so to be precise the proposal is to change

"Prior to the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine covered approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi), and was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people."

to

"Ukraine covers approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi). Prior to the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War, it was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people."

From previous comments above this seems to be also supported by myself, an IP editor, Wolf359Locutus, Tartan357 and DoctorWhutsup

and opposed by Khajidha

So as "Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity" I have changed it. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way ScottishFinnishRadish is now an administrator so if anyone thinks I was wrong feel free to complain to him and give him some work! Chidgk1 (talk) 19:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Perfect. Thank you for editing it to be correct. ReticuliZ (talk) 08:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)