Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 401

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Just a general question

Sometimes, even generally reliable newspapers use bylines like "News desk" or "Web desk", etc. Does it mean the published content is prepared by several staff members, or is it used to mask sponsored or paid content? Are such articles/reports reliable? Insight 3 (talk) 06:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

In a typical respectable publication, that just means an article that was assembled by multiple authors, without a byline. Wouldn't assume it was sponsored or paid content, which (again, in a legit publication) should be explicitly flagged as such). BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 11:36, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Insight 3 Both. Some reliable sources like The Economist uses no byline, read [1]. PR agencies try to use this to get organic coverage (loophole): "A byline is a where the writer of an article is credited. In PR, bylines are an opportunity for clients to get organic media exposure through writing a piece in a magazine or newspaper, pulling from their industry experience and building the company’s platform in the process." [2] So just trust highly reliable sources won't damage their reputation by masking the paid content under "news desk" byline. 175.107.236.127 (talk) 13:46, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

In addition to the above: "News desk" or similar bylines may also indicate syndicated content, e.g., from the Associated Press. Another very common use case is news briefs (assembled by staff, generally from press releases, often has a headline indicating "briefs," "news in brief," etc.) These often appear as "news desk," etc. because the copy/layout desk or online editor assembles them, rather than the reporting desk. Or -- more often than you'd think -- articles may appear under "news desk" or "web desk" when the newspaper website has not, for whatever reason, properly included the byline in the CMS, or properly transferred the byline from an old CMS to a new one, or the paper has been purchased by some other company that has not maintained its website. In these cases sometimes the actual byline appears in article text, and sometimes it doesn't and you have to check the print version to see who actually wrote it. In short, it's complicated, but without other evidence there's no reason to think these aren't reliable. Gnomingstuff (talk) 19:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Reliability of Reddit comments published by immediate family member of a deceased individual (Technoblade)

I've looked into the discussions linked in WP:RSPREDDIT and did a cursory search through the noticeboard archives, but I lack the skills necessary to sift through and refine all the results within the noticeboard, nor do I think there's been a case where Wikipedia editors have cited Reddit comments published by immediate family members of a deceased individual. I'm aware of WP:ABOUTSELF, WP:BLPSPS, and WP:SPS, but I would rather let more seasoned Wikipedia veterans be in the driver's seat for this situation—the number of circumstances involved in here are a bit more than I can chew.

Here's the exact comment originally cited in Technoblade: https://www.reddit.com/r/Technoblade/comments/yzjnwm/comment/ix278au. For the time being, I've enclosed the relevant claim and this citation in an invisible comment so that the content's preserved within the article for now.

The authenticity of u/MrTechnodad (father of Technoblade and author of the Reddit comment in question) is a bit unorthodox compared to Reddit accounts associated with verified AMAs. Instead of using (or rather, due to the lack of) a previously verified social media handle to establish authenticity, u/MrTechnodad published a comment under Technoblade’s Reddit account (u/Technothereddit). This alone calls item number 4 of WP:ABOUTSELF into question, as well as the first sentence of WP:BLPSPS. The fact that the comment was made by someone from Technoblade's immediate family calls item number 2 of WP:ABOUTSELF into question solely on the basis that the comment wasn't written by Technoblade himself (for obvious reasons).

I'm not adding this topic to imply that u/MrTechnodad is a fraud—rather, I'm here to ask about a potential edge case even after applying as many relevant Wikipedia policies as possible.

I am most likely overthinking this, so I need a fresh pair of eyes on this whenever possible. Thanks in advance. Cheers, u|RayDeeUx (contribs | talk page) 04:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

What information is the father's reddit account proposed to be used for? Just that the son attended UIowa? AFAICT that's not an important detail, so if the usability of the source for it is this low, I'd say just leave it out, nothing important is lost by not including that. Since it's a statement by the father about two different third parties—Technoblade and UIowa—it doesn't seem to meet WP:ABOUTSELF. -sche (talk) 08:51, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Scientific Reports

Which of the following best describes Scientific Reports?

Option 1: Generally reliable
Option 2: Additional considerations apply
Option 3: Generally unreliable
Option 4: Deprecate

Previous discussions: [3].Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Survey

Option 2 Whether or not a paper from SciRep should be used is very field and author dependent. While undoubtedly a lot of good and valid research is published there, so is a lot of dubious stuff, more so than other journals in the SpringerNature portfolio. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 2: many scholarly articles should be given little weight on Wikipedia anyways, regardless of publisher or reliability, as primary sources (WP:PSTS). A primary article that describes a new species, like this one, is reliable enough to show the species has been validly published, even if subsequent taxonomists disagree or reclassify it. But a research paper in the same journal that seeks to upend an existing classification scheme of a family or phylum based on a newly sequenced blip of RNA should be weighted accordingly with other sources. --Animalparty! (talk) 23:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 3, though some things published there may be usable via WP:SELFPUB. It is reasonably clear from its history that it exerts practically no editorial controls whatsoever; therefore it is a textbook non-WP:RS and publication there will never lend any iota of reliability. I can understand people stating that this is 2 (because sometimes highly-regarded experts do publish things through it, which can be used via WP:SELFPUB) but my concern is that our ratings are generally considered to be for the source itself - SELFPUB is a separate consideration that allows certain things to be used regardless of the reliability of the venue they were published in, not something that changes the fundamental unreliability of a journal with essentially no editorial controls. And the fairly rigid structure WP:RSP has evolved into could mean that a "yellow" rating there would lead to people arguing that publication there sometimes lends reputability, or that it is disputed whether it lends inherent reliability. It never does, not ever, which means that option 3 is the best choice with the caveat that things by established experts can be used as normal via SELFPUB (true in general for things published in non-RSes) - essentially, anyone who wants to use a paper from there has to start from the presumption that it is unreliable and construct a SELFPUB argument otherwise on a case-by-case basis. --Aquillion (talk) 04:28, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 2 Should be assessed on an article-by-article basis. Some may be useful as primary sources alongside secondary sources that themselves reference material published there, but for the most part we should not be using scientific papers without a supporting secondary source that puts the primary research into context. It's probably fine for linking in cases where we reference the material in conjunction with its discussion in secondary sources, but like ALL scientific journals, per WP:PRIMARY, "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." --Jayron 32 13:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 3 Misusing primary sources is already rampant on wikipedia. The journal has a checkered history, so I agree with Aquillion that articles should basically be treated as self published. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 3 Primary sources like research papers should only be used with special care to begin with, and this journal fails the use-with-caution standard. Aiming for quantity indiscriminate of field is a big red flag. Peer review requires trustworthy subject-specific expert review, which is dubious when the journal as a whole disregards subject specialization. Our article Scientific Reports appears to indicate the quantity-over-quality approach bearing poor fruit. Note that this should not count against any paper published there, surely much of that work is fine. It just means publication in Scientific Reports adds little to any other publication or authority the work may otherwise have. Alsee (talk) 22:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I suppose given that as of 2020 SciRep was publishing 7,500-10,000 papers every year, is looking at the raw number of controversies an appropriate metric? Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 - Other considerations apply. (Not sure this needs a RFC -- Is there really a 'perennial' need about this source ? But in any case hers is my input.) As always, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and whether the source is authoritative depends largely on what content it is being used for. What the venue is should not be a universal up or down item. That said, I'm dubious about the value of citing a study to an article, it generally seeming a work in progress and typically technical item of no large note. (And I'm even more dubious about those of note or WP:WEIGHT as being suspect for sensationalism or publicising rather than scientific note.) Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:36, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 4, deprecate: there is not enough time to evaluate the merits of this publisher's studies on a case-by-case basis, and where this does happen it usually involves protracted edit wars, cliques, drama, etc. Wikipedia's quality and user experiences improve tremendously by setting higher standards for sources. What little value that might be lost will be more than compensated for by removing the big pile of bad studies, as well as the bloat of material that just isn't notable enough to be included in a tertiary source. What has been published by Scientific Reports that was truly important or worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia? - Hunan201p (talk) 20:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Option 2. Retractions and weak articles are happening in all scientific journals, even the best ones. That is not a proof of anything. Given the description of their editorial process [4], they have a peer review process and editorial oversight. But yes, the additional considerations must apply, as always, i.e. one should check if specific publication makes exceptional claims, contradicts general knowledge in the field, not supported by other sources, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 01:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Option 2. For me, this is a no-brainer. Scientific reports is a huge website covering a lot of ground. One cannot compare mathematics to sociology in terms of the ability of a reader literate in both to be able to validate for one's self whether something is true or not. But as always, caveat emptor applies, and in general it is nonsense to judge a book by its cover, and asking if a source is reliable is actually nonsense. CarlWesolowski (talk) 06:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Option 3. Scientific reports covers a very wide range of areas but like all primary sources, WP:PRIMARY will apply. We shouldn't be analysing or interpreting sources, which is why reliable secondary sources are much more acceptable. Having said that, I think it's important to remember that context is still important (WP:CONTEXTMATTERS), and they can still be used to supplement other sources. Starlights99 (talk) 20:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm not sure we have a color code for "quite frequently unreliable, but reliability can be established on a case-by-case basis in fairly standard ways". The various arguments for 2 and 3 that are currently up there seem to agree to a large extent on how the journal ought to be treated in practice; the difference is how to translate that into suitable Wikipedia jargon. XOR'easter (talk) 16:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Unless Sci Rep has started publishing review articles, is this more of a "people using primary sources when they shouldn't" problem? Red Fiona (talk) 00:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Do Not List In RSN - this seems not usable for RSP results. Unless there are a number of past instances where this was one "whose reliability and use on Wikipedia are frequently discussed" then by definition it does not belong in RSP. If there *are* past discussions, then they should be described by the RFC as the reason for the discussion and not as a generic search link that returns false hits on the phrase "scientific reports". In this case the generic search seems to have 4 which actually question SR, and only one case came to a conclusion which was that particular study was just that -- a first-person report of a study which did not suit the article CONTEXT of MEDRS. In WP sense, this seems -- not an entry for RSP, and utility depends on context. But really, just stop asking about every venue there is. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:03, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Scientific Reports is a well respected fast publishing journal for particular types of studies. Personally I have published in it. That said it has received criticism for inadequate review in some areas. They do not publish opinion pieces and try to publish the original research of authors. Like all publications they should be used judiciously and without bias. I do not see why this has been brought up as an RFC as the way to treat publications applies to any publication. Many scientists even see Nature itself as not much more than a flashy magazine filled with titles and little content. However its impact factor keeps people publishing in it as scientists grant access depends on a high impact factor. I recommend closing this as the premise of the RFC is actually not relevant to the issues with journals. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 14:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Jack Anderson (columnist)

Ordinarily I’d be asking this question on the page of the article in question, which is Jack Anderson (columnist), a deceased journalist. More on why I’m asking here later. Anderson often been labeled a “Muckraker”. And if you look at that biography’s section titled Muckraker it says in Wikipedia’s voice the FBI participated in “retaliation and continual harassment” towards Anderson. My problem with this is the source is Anderson himself, a primary source. Anderson’s work product was often called into question for various reasons, one of which falls into a “Mission from God” category. Along this vein, I believe the article has other primary sourcing issues. In short, maybe it could use a review or two from anyone so inclined. Artificial Nagger (talk) 16:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

There a couple of references to the History Channel doc hosted by Anderson, including for this passage. It's reliable with attribution even though it's "about self", because it is not self-published. Same thing for any of his WaPo columns. And there are plenty of other sources to corroborate the particular passage here...heck, the harassment continued after his death. This really belongs back at the article talk page before bringing it here; there is no controversy or dispute that's been raised there first without a resolution. Banks Irk (talk) 01:52, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Logically.ai

Logically.ai is a UK startup specialising in fact-checking and other intelligence tasks. It is used as a source in a few places, but especially prominent in the articles about the websites Disclose.tv and The Exposé.

I would like to get feedback on the reliability of their non-fact checking website content, which seems to essentially come down to editorials, and using these directly as a source. The context is my deletion request for the Disclose.tv article, which currently uses their article on them as the by far most prominent source for the article's content, with the company's analysis being explicitly mentioned in almost every paragraph as other sourcing on Disclose.tv runs very thin. Even if the article were to be kept, it seems undue to me to put this much weight on their editorial and labelling.

The reason I am questioning the website's reliability is that there's no comprehensive list of staff, writers or generally an editorial team as far as I can find, with some investigative articles being attributed simply to the company. The attributed author's profile in the Disclose.tv article even leads to a 404 page.

While the company has been cited in articles by other RS (see deletion discussion), that seems mostly limited to their reports and fact-checking activities. I also find it questionable how much of that essentially comes down to PR for their services, as they're a private company.

Personally I haven't found any sources besides the ones mentioned in the deletion discussion referencing them, but this might come down to it being made a bit difficult from the company's name and most citations leaving out the ".ai".

Tagging @Isi96 SenorCar (talk) 01:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Reliable per WP:USEBYOTHERS. Per my comment on the deletion discussion, Logically has been cited by reliable sources such as The Guardian (RSP entry) [5][6], the BBC (RSP entry) [7] and The New York Times [8] (RSP entry), among others. It has also been certified as a fact-checker by the International Fact-Checking Network (RSP entry), and it has a corrections policy. Isi96 (talk) 02:40, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Not Reliable There is nothing about this website or any search to it that inspires any confidence about its reliability. It appears to be an aspiring UK/Indian Snopes without any third-party independent reliable assessment of its reputation for accuracy, not withstanding that it's been in operation a fair number of years. Banks Irk (talk)`
Generally Reliable with some additional considerations. Per the points Isi96 brought up, they seem reliable for factual reporting and analysis. However, there is a blog on the website that probably shouldn't be used, since blogs usually have less editorial oversight. I don't see the editorial board, which gives me pause to call them generally reliable flat-out. I'm definitely a little weary of the fact that their website seems secondary to their consulting business. They shouldn't be used to establish notability, but I don't think that's what's happening at Disclose.tv. I would like to get feedback on the reliability of their non-fact checking website content, which seems to essentially come down to editorials, and using these directly as a source. I think you're mischaracterizing the article. It' not an editorial at all. 🙢 - Sativa Inflorescence - 🙢 14:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
The website does have a lot of investigations published with "Logically" as an author, which is what I referred to. Though admittedly after checking again I noticed that these tend to at least have the names of the researchers listed at the top of the article. SenorCar (talk) 20:14, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Their team members are located here. Isi96 (talk) 05:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
May I ask you how you found this? As this isn't linked anywhere on their website. Additionally, how do you find the references to them that you referred to above? As I mentioned, I wasn't able to come up with anything, which I assume is due to the company's name being very generic and most sources referring to them just as "Logically".

Sorry for being a bit suspicious, but I noticed before that you seem to be one of the persons referencing to them as a source the most, including being one of the main authors of the company's own article. SenorCar (talk) 14:51, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
"May I ask you how you found this? As this isn't linked anywhere on their website." That page is accessible from their fact-checking page, under the Research dropdown.

I was able to find the above references by using the site parameter in Google Search, e.g. logically site:nytimes.com.

"Sorry for being a bit suspicious, but I noticed before that you seem to be one of the persons referencing to them as a source the most, including being one of the main authors of the company's own article." That's fine, it's not an issue. I actually encountered them as a reference in this piece from Coda Story. Isi96 (talk) 15:15, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you. SenorCar (talk) 15:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

MilitaryLand.net

1. https://militaryland.net/ukraine/

2. It would be used on any units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

3. In my opinion the source is trustworthy. Anyone who is familiar with the matter could take a look and compare it with sources that have already been confirmed, there should be hardly any discrepancies.

Best regards, Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 17:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

(As I had been asked on my talk page and suggested a thread here: ) My first impression is that this is a self-published blog created by a few enthusiasts lacking editorial oversight, and thus not reliable. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:05, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

That's true, but as I said previously, anyone who is experienced with the topic may have a look and compare it with sources that have already been authenticated, there should be rarely any discrepancies. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 18:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Then use those sources, as well this site may be doing. Slatersteven (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are not reliable sources for everything that the site claims. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

So in order to use the full potential of the site, one would have to recognize it as trustworthy. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

So, it uses unreliable sources, so why should we use it? Slatersteven (talk) 18:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes looks like a blog. Slatersteven (talk) 18:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Another dime a dozen military fan site, not reliable. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

No editorial policy found. Yet another fan blog (and ad farm) type of site. Definitely not reliable. - Amigao (talk) 19:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

True, it seems very skeptical, but it has also been used on the Ukrainian wikipedia, and hardly ever uses false information. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 20:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I've now also seen that User:Buckshot06 also used this source, if that helps in any way. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 20:31, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Military fan site, not reliable, if they quote reliable sources then use those sources. Use on a different language wiki has no bearing on if a source is reliable on enwiki. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:13, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested Then that's probably the case.

Are the official Facebook pages or their official telegram channels a reliable source then?

For example: https://www.facebook.com/47brigade or https://t.me/egerbrigade Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

What about several news websites quoting him?

Such as:

1: https://tvpworld.com/65487666/over-800-russian-soldiers-killed-in-past-day-ukraine-military-reports

2: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/5/ukraine-claims-battlefield-victories-during-counteroffensive

3: https://wavellroom.com/2023/02/20/vodyane-village-assault/

4: https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/06/15/russo-ukrainian-war-day-112-russia-continues-to-attack-sloviansk-ukraine-has-10-of-weapons-that-it-asked-for/

5: https://observers.france24.com/en/europe/20220328-journey-out-of-devastated-mariupol-ukraine-russia-war

6: https://subscription.ukrweekly.com/2022/06/more-weapons-pledged-for-ukraine-while-russia-makes-gains-in-the-east/

7: https://breakingdefense.com/2022/03/defiant-ukrainian-armor-builder-at-saudi-trade-show-eager-to-go-into-battle/

8: https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/russia-ukraine-war-ukrainian-armed-forces-controlling-water-a-recurring-war-tactic-2297140-2022-11-14

While most aren't really good sites, it's something. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Looking at France24 article is just re-using a video they tweeted, I don't think it adds any credibility. The Al Jazeera article has me confused, it say Kyrylo Tymoshenko, deputy head of the president’s office and then shows at tweet from militaryland, are the two somehow connected? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:13, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I think the picture in Vysokopillya should be intended as a confirmation of Tymoshenko's statement. At France24 it is also intended as a confirmation of the statement that the town is destroyed. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 22:46, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested Not only that, but TVP has cited the site multiple times. (https://tvpworld.com/65536935/live-day-319-of-russian-aggression-against-ukraine) Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek too. (https://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-russia-troops-forced-buy-equipment-armor-ukraine-reports-1750000) Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

But Newsweek specifically say according to the military blog MilitaryLand.net, sorry I didn't think there's enough to change my mind (and I'm not the only one you would need to convince). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:18, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Yet another self-sourced military blog. I don't know if it's a recent thing, but the growth of articles like "Military equipment of..." has really caught my attention--and of course all those articles look to me to mostly be hobby stuff with tons and tons of primary and bloggy sourcing, in addition to pictures of guns and flags. I tried very hard to not use the word "fetishism", but that is really what it is, and it belongs on Wikia, not here. Drmies (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

ElFulgor.com

My edit to the Oruro Department was tagged for a deprecated source, which apparently was ElFulgor.com. I do not know much about the media landscape in Bolivia so maybe someone with familarity on the subject can help out. I could not find any discussions about this topic or an entry in the perennial sources list. Thanks for helping out.

Nevermind, the source that seems to have triggered the tag was probably worldstatesmen.org, which is used on so many pages that I did not consider it. After reading some old discussions, I can easily see why it was tagged. Will look for a better source.

ΙℭaℜuΣatthe☼ (talk). 13:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC) edited 14:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

The Forward

The Forward, an English and Yiddish language based newspaper specializing in politics based out of New York City. They are not listed on WP:RSP. They are known for being partisan and left leaning, however, I don't know enough about journalism to personally pass judgement on if they are reliable or not. Scu ba (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd say generally reliable for statements of fact within the parameters of a WP:NEWSORG, may not be due for opinions on topics not relating to the American Jewish community. Within the continuum of US Jewish publications, they're typically left of Tablet (magazine) and right of Jewish Currents. I haven't seen any significant differences between their English and Yiddish coverage. Most of their output is in English nowadays but they do still publish Yiddish-first articles. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 21:06, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
The specific article in question is this article talking about Steve Laffey's presidential bid. It isn't really a Jewish issue but rather reads like an opinion peace about his relationship with Jewish individuals, and his support for Israel. Would the article count towards being a notable source about Laffey? Scu ba (talk) 23:41, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I wouldn't call that an opinion piece, it's a series of anecdotes, mostly attributed to Laffey himself, with essentially no added commentary beyond assertions that this is what Laffey and his colleagues say. I wouldn't question its reliability as far as what Laffey's position on Israel and related topics is concerned, but the level of detail is definitely way higher than what would be DUE in our article. Unless other sources are drawing attention to his positions on Israel, I don't think more than a sentence or two is warranted. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 01:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Understandable, Would it be possible to add the Forward to the WP:RSP list or should I just reference to this eventually archived conversation in the future? Scu ba (talk) 18:15, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
RSP tends to insist on waiting for an RfC, which probably isn't needed here. You can point to this conversation if use of The Forward is challenged, but you'd be equally well-served by just paraphrasing there comments here. In a source reliability discussion with so few editors, no one is laying down policy as it were, we're just providing relevant information and opinions. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:20, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

What makes you think it's an opinion piece? Honestly, it's more "dry" than most news articles. I'd generally agree with Rosguill (ie. the source is broadly an WP:RS; there's no indication that their biases taint their reliability, and that particular piece doesn't strike me as an opinion piece.) But one additional thing I'd point out is that it's based on an interview Laffey gave to Forward. It's not their commentary on him, it's "here's Laffey's views on Israel and how he is presenting himself to the Jewish community, in his own words." That's probably enough to justify a sentence or two in the section of the article discussing his views on Israel. --Aquillion (talk) 07:46, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Okay thanks! I was just confused on the tone of the article and how it felt more informal than some of the other articles on Laffey that I've seen. Scu ba (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Generally reliable, mostly in agreement with Rosguill. Would say more reliable than Tablet, as the Tablet has a habit of publishing things that are obviously opinion (I mean written in the first person and saying this is what I think) as "news". nableezy - 22:32, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

@Scu ba HAMI450z (talk) 01:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Generally reliable, as per Rosguill etc. (Agree with Nableezy that it's more reliable than Tablet, which is also generally OK to use, and also, not least due to its long history, a better gauge than Tablet of whether something is due.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:54, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Schleswig-Holsteinischer Zeitungsverlag

I would like to cite shz.de in some articles, but I don't know whether it can be deemed a reliable source. Can someone confirm or deny its reliability? Виктор Не Вацко (talk) 20:17, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:NEWSORG applies to this long established mainstream news organization. But, context is needed to assess whether a specific reference is reliable to support a specific statement in a specific article. Banks Irk (talk) 20:44, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- For start, I'd like to cite this article. It's about a boxing match between Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye and its impact on the boxing world. Виктор Не Вацко (talk) 21:46, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
  I do not see any issues (though can not access the text behind the paywall). Ymblanter (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I too cannot get past the paywall. But a quick looking-over what I could see did not reveal any issues. I'd suggest assuming they are reliable unless/until proven otherwise. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:37, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
You can get past the paywall simply by registering. Worked for me at least. The paywall only restricts a certain percentage of articles, but this one shouldn't be one of them. Виктор Не Вацко (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

The National Desk and Sinclair Broadcast Group

There are several related discussions happening on the Lia Thomas Talk page that may benefit from additional input about the reliability of The National Desk and/or its parent company Sinclair Broadcast Group, including:

Two sources being discussed are:

[9] (The National Desk, also published by a local ABC station KATV)
[10] (published by a local NBC station, produced by The National Desk)

I have not found past discussions of these sources on this board. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:57, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

With regard to Sinclair Broadcast Group, sources I have found include:

Sinclair Broadcast Group sources

Sinclair requires stations, including KOMO, to air segments tilting to the right, (Seattle Times, produced by Sydney Ember, The New York Times , May 15, 2017, e.g. "During the election campaign last year, it sent out a package that suggested in part that voters should not support Hillary Clinton because the Democratic Party was historically pro-slavery. More recently, Sinclair asked stations to run a short segment in which Scott Livingston, the company’s vice president for news, accused the national news media of publishing “fake news stories.”")
This is Sinclair, 'the most dangerous US company you've never heard of' (The Guardian, Lucia Graves, 17 Aug 2017, e.g. "It has a long history of airing material which has often been controversial, and for which it has been sanctioned in the past – all the while purporting to simply report the “news”. [...] Unlike Fox News, which brands itself clearly and proudly, most viewers of Sinclair’s local stations have no idea who owns them since they are not branded as part of the Sinclair network.")
Sinclair Made Dozens of Local News Anchors Recite the Same Script, (Jacey Fortin and Jonah Engel Bromwich, The New York Times, Apr. 2, 2018, e.g. "Although it is the country’s largest broadcaster, Sinclair is not a household name and viewers may be unaware of who owns their local news station.")
Sinclair, the pro-Trump, conservative company taking over local news, explained (Dylan Matthews, Vox, Apr 3, 2018, e.g. "In 2008, Sinclair raised eyebrows yet again for running an ad attempting to tie then-Sen. Barack Obama to Weather Underground terrorist Bill Ayers. [...] the New York Times’s Jim Rutenberg noted, it was an ad that Fox News and CNN declined to run due to legal concerns."; "In 2015, it hired former CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson to host a weekly news show; Attkisson had become a prominent Benghazi conspiracy theorist"; "recent Sinclair segment featured former Trump adviser Sebastian Gorka ranting about the “deep state” and its efforts to sabotage Trump, and was produced by Kristine Frazao, a former reporter and anchor for the Russian propaganda network RT")
What we know about the conservative media giant Sinclair, Chicago Tribune, produced by Eli Rosenberg, Washington Post, Apr 03, 2018, e.g. "The company's Terrorism Alert Desk produces segments that underscore the menace of terrorism around the globe. HBO comedy host John Oliver lambasted a news brief from the desk about efforts to ban burkinis in France as part of a critical look at Sinclair last year. "That is not about terrorism!" Oliver said incredulously. "It's just about Muslims.")

Beccaynr (talk) 23:01, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for opening this topic. She is mentioned above, but a very problematic Sinclair show is this one:

Full Measure with Sharyl Attkisson

Our local ABC channel runs it, and even without much interest in politics, my wife commented: "What is this? What planet is that woman from? She sounds like a Fox News host with little connection to reality." I was rather surprised, because she rarely says much about politics. It turns out my wife is much better informed than I realized.

We need a list of such problematic shows from Sinclair. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:13, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

With regard to the first National Desk source listed above (Feb. 9 2023), the reporter writes, "Thomas, who was born male". According to the Sex assignment section of the APA Style Guide,
"birth sex" is one of the phrases "considered disparaging by scholars in TGNC psychological research; by many individuals identifying as transgender, gender-nonconforming, or nonbinary; and by people exhibiting gender diversity. Thus, these disparaging terms should be avoided. [...] It is more appropriate to use “assigned sex” or “sex assigned at birth,” as this functionally describes the assignment of a sex term".
The Washington Times reported in October 2017, "The Associated Press's official Stylebook [Twitter] account counseled journalists to not describe a transgender individual as having been “born” a certain sex." The GLAAD Media Reference Guide Transgender People section includes, "Avoid "Marisol was born a man." [...] An oversimplification like "born a man" invalidates the current, authentic gender of the person you're speaking about and is considered disrespectful."
With regard to the second National Desk source listed above (Mar. 1, 2023), the reporter uses the term "biological women" to introduce a quote from a speaker who used the term "woman." I am reminded of a past discussion on the Lia Thomas Talk page where part of C.Fred's close of the discussion included noting "Biological male" is considered derogatory (15 among other sources). That link is to the Oregon Health & Science University "Transgender Health Program: Terms and Tips". As a comparative example, the generally unreliable website WP:POSTMIL has used the term biological male to describe a transgender woman athlete.

Beccaynr (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate these style guide inputs, but I don't think those necessarily render The National Desk unreliable for the content "So-and-so complained about sharing a locker room with this person". The core question here is verifiability. Not style or form, this isn't the NPOV noticeboard. Do we have actual concern that The National Desk has reported falsehoods or inaccuracies here? Or only that they are slightly outdated with regards to terminology? (a sin that many news outlets are guilty of, many of which are green on WP:RSP). — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 14:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Do you have examples of 'many green WP:RSP news outlets' using language widely understood to be derogatory/disparaging and contrary to the AP Style Guide? The AP Style Guide appears to have been updated by 2017, and The National Desk is using language in 2023 also used by the generally unreliable and biased WP:POSTMIL, so from my view, that does not seem 'slightly' outdated, and instead more like an editorial decision that raises general concerns about the news outlet and specific concerns about the sources considered here. Beccaynr (talk) 17:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Here are several GREL outlets that say "born male" when referring to trans persons (after 2017):
Politico (15 Feb 2023) · CNN (July 2021) · ESPN (6 July 2022) · BBC News (22 December 2021) · Scientific Reports (26 January 2021) · The Texas Standard (11 December 2018) · Medical News Today (11 Aug 2022) · SkyNews (UK) (2 May 2021) — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 19:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
These sources appear to be different than the TND reporters using the terminology: The Politico reporter attributes 'born male' to others; CNN uses "born with DSD traits" and "sex they were assigned at birth"; ESPN attributes to British Triathlon; BBC attributes to rumors; Scientific Reports uses "assigned to them at birth"; Texas Standard quotes its interviewee: "changing my sex from my assigned sex" and later writes 'he was born male'; Medical News Today: "a person who was assigned female at birth (AFAB) but identifies as a man may refer to themselves as a “transgender” man"; Sky News quoting Caitlin Jenner also using other terms identified above as disparaging (e.g. "biological boys"). With the exception of the Texas Standard, which may be paraphrasing in an article based on the statements of the subject, it does not appear 'born male' or 'biological man/woman' are used by the reporters. Beccaynr (talk) 19:50, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
emphatic disagree. These sources use "born male" in passages not attributed:

CNN: But there is increasingly vocal pushback from parts of the medical community, parents and intersex people themselves, saying that being intersex isn’t a medical “problem” to be “solved” any more so than being born male or female is one
ESPN: The governing body announced Wednesday there would be two categories for athletes over the age of 12: "female" for those who are born female, and "open" for men and those who are born male, including transgender and nonbinary people.
BBC: Brigitte Macron is set to take legal action over an internet conspiracy theory that she is a transgender woman and was born male.
Scientific Reports research article: Which of these situations do you most closely relate to? (1 I was born male, but I have felt female since childhood; 2 I was born female, but I have felt male since childhood; 3 I was born male and I feel comfortable with my body; 4 I was born female, and I feel comfortable with my body)
Texas Standard: He then learned that he was born with a condition called androgen insensitivity syndrome, in his case, he was born male but his body did not produce testosterone. He began living as a male again by injecting testosterone on a weekly basis.
Medical News Today: People who are born male and living as men cannot get pregnant. A transgender man or nonbinary person may be able to, however.
SkyNews: The Florida legislature passed laws this week that would restrict entry to girls' sports teams to those who were born female.

If these reporters wanted to attribute such things, they would have placed them inside the quotations or in more obvious paraphrasing. Instead, they placed them in the "omniscient voice" of the articles themselves. Getting it right at one place in the article does not overcome getting it wrong elsewhere in the article. You are stating above that getting it wrong in one place should render a source unreliable. So here are reliable sources that also, in some places, got it wrong. We should not hold our sources to such a high standard selectively based on our disagreement with their politics. And, moreover, we never use "style" as a reasoning for rendering a source unreliable. Only editorial policy and fact checking. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 20:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Attribution is not always in quotes - for example, if the Florida legislature, British Triathlon, or internet conspiracy theory are using 'born female' or 'born male', the outlets report that. And scientific reporting that also use the accepted language is a different type of report than the TND. But I don't think this discussion is helped by us going round-and-round on this tangent. We've added sources and our perpectives, and other participants can review and make their own judgments. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC) add "tangent" to clarify comment, per off-topic discussion below. Beccaynr (talk) 00:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that if they're reporting that someone was "born a man", we should definitely cast doubt on their accuracy, as a "man" is an adult male human, and surely such a birth would've made news separately. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I don't actually know that TND said "born a man". They said, Thomas, who was born male, sparked global controversy when she joined UPenn's women's swimming team in 2021 following hormone replacement therapy. Which is not exactly "assigned male at birth (AMAB)" (the preferred language to the best of my knowledge), but it's close. I think if we're quibbling about that then it's too close of reading trying to invalidate a source for nit-picky reasons imo. I agree the male-vs-man thing is worth discussing, but they didn't actually commit that particular error. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 19:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I don't think we're quibbling about male-vs-man, because the sources cited above focus on e.g. "The Associated Press's official Stylebook [Twitter] account counseled journalists to not describe a transgender individual as having been “born” a certain sex", which appears to plainly include the TND 'born male', i.e. "birth sex" phrasing. Beccaynr (talk) 19:28, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Then see above multiple news outlets which say "born (sex)" when describing Trans persons. I'm all for using inclusive and updated language wherever possible when we write the encyclopedia, but it's absurd to use standards like this to disqualify outlets when tons of GREL outlets are apparently making that mistake. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 19:31, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the MOS criticisms are irrelevant to whether a source is reliable or not. There is no question that Sinclair has a right editorial bias and that some of its past news policies and outlets have be extensively criticized, some compared to Breitbart. The Wikipedia article on National Desk contains considerable discussion of criticism from Media Matters. On the other hand, Media Bias/Fact Check[11] acknowledges the bias and urges caution as a result but rates them "High" for factual reporting, in part on the basis that they are well sourced and have a clean fact-check record. It also notes that the National Desk website lacks transparency in failing to have an "about us" page - so there's no description of its editorial or fact-checking policies. My thought is that I don't see much evidence beyond those two positions that there has been a lot of assessment of its reliability and little citation of its stories by unrelated third party reliable sources. It is is too recent to have developed a solid reputation on which to say that it is generally reliable or unreliable as a rule. Citations should be handled on a case-by-case basis. Banks Irk (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
According to the WP:RS/P entry for Media Bias/Fact Check, There is consensus that Media Bias/Fact Check is generally unreliable, as it is self-published. Editors have questioned the methodology of the site's ratings. And I think the sources I found above that document a history of inaccuracy and bias by the parent company Sinclair Broadcast Group raises significant concerns about the general reliability of its new outlet The National Desk, particularly as the specific sources listed above use language that appears to be widely understood to be disparaging (including according to "scholars in TGNC psychological research" per the AP) and is similar to language used by another outlet considered generally unreliable and biased per WP:RS/P (WP:POSTMIL) when also reporting on transgender athletes. Beccaynr (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Do you think Sinclair's history is enough to deprecate or downgrade every single outlet they have ever owned or will own? Because that's something like 100+ news markets covering 72% of US household's local news stations. Many of which report factual things like...the weather, outcomes of political races, local interest stories, etc. I agree with you and Banks that the political bias of SInclair is patently obvious. But I don't think the history of Sinclair should be so cleanly and carelessly applied to everything they have ever touched like that.
On the other hand, I agree there are some very troubling inaccuracies as described in The National Desk § Format that are extremely relevant to this discussion! I would have asked you to describe these from the beginning of this post! That's what we should have been talking about the whole time! On the basis of those inaccuracies and misinformation instances, I would say TND should be "Category 2" aka "additional considerations apply" and there should be caution when using TND to verify content about American politics and science, especially from a conservative bent. Not Category 3 (generally unreliable) mind you, because if their attempt is to be "commentary-free" as described in that section, then they can still probably be used for "uncontroversial" topics. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 17:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Yes, that's the question. Sinclair has a deserved reputation for bias and inaccuracy in many other outlets that predate National Desk, but rather like the perennial debates over the news vs opinion/entertainment sides of other organizations, I can't conclude that everything it puts out is necessarily unreliable. National Desk has not yet developed a reputation for accuracy or inaccuracy in factual reporting as far as I can tell. RSP says Media Matters is only marginally reliable, and MB/FC is unreliable, but no other solid, third party reliable sources appear to have weighed in. So where does that leave us? That's why I suggest taking use of it as a source on a case-by-case basis, and not make a blanket judgment at this point in time. Banks Irk (talk) 17:21, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

From my view, we are not trying to make an RFC determination about the outlets generally, but the background information seems relevant to assessing the specific sources proposed to support politically-related WP:BLPCRIME/WP:BLPGOSSIP content in the article. I have wanted to research The National Desk more, because I am aware of the need to assess WP:MEDIAMATTERS on a case-by-case basis per RSP, but have not yet had the opportunity. I instead started with the Sinclair Broadcast Group, and then found indications in the specific sources listed above that from my view, seem similar to concerns raised by reliable sources about SBG. Beccaynr (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I think in this particular instance, it is permissible to verify the factual statement "so-and-so expressed concerns to the media about being forced to view so-and-so's genitalia in shared locker rooms at inter-collegiate swim meets" to local outlets and others who reprinted the TND report. It's a factual statement, that The National Desk reported, incontrovertibly, accurately. There's no actual question as to whether the complaint happened. We know it did. If the question is: "Is this DUE?" then the proper noticeboard would be WP:NPOVN. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 19:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
If we proceed from the lightest caution of "there should be caution when using TND to verify content about American politics and science", then these do not appear to be reliable sources for these contentious, politically-related WP:BLPCRIME and WP:BLPGOSSIP claims about a transgender athlete. Gaines is making allegations about her teammates and Thomas, and per WP:BLPCRIME, it is more than a complaint and we need multiple reliable sources, and there are the BLP/WMF privacy issues also being discussed on the article Talk page. I think before we get to WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, it would help to resolve source reliability issues (to help determine BLP compliance, balance, neutrality, and weight), which is why I opened the discussion here. Beccaynr (talk) 20:02, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
What crime is being alleged here? Why would WP:BLPCRIME apply at all? — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 20:16, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I have explained in the article Talk discussions, including in an in-depth response to your question today [12]. Gaines explains in her statements about how she believes she has been subject to criminal conduct. A plain reading of the headline also seems to imply alleged criminality. So I think it is best to keep focused on whether these sources are reliable for contentious politically-related statements about a living person that include allegations of criminal conduct, and/or allegations about personal medical information that also requires much better sourcing. Beccaynr (talk) 20:35, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
While I personally think there are transphobic aspects to some of the statements made by Gaines, when looking at her immediate complaint (wrong genitals in the wrong place), there are, seen from a general societal POV, issues of what are seen as inappropriate conduct related to public display of genitals, that have nothing to do with identity as transgender, and that can have legal consequences. If a man or woman (in the sense of sex assigned at birth, with intact male or female genitalia), regardless of their sexual preference (hetero or LGBTQ) or transgender self-identity, changes their clothes in a gym shower dressing room reserved for their "sex assigned at birth" (only dicks or only vaginas), there will be no controversy, but if one of them does so in such a room for the "opposite sex" (to use common terminology), there will be immediate controversy, possibly with the police being called. That is the immediate complaint made by Gaines, and that part of the claim has nothing to do with the fact that Thomas is transgender. Gaines would have made the same complaint if any other person with male genitalia had exposed themselves in front of her in the changing room. So we need to separate the two issues.

The issues above are related to political correctness and sensitivity to the rights, feelings, and respect for what are seen as proper terminology in the LGBTQ and transgender communities. Unlike conservatives, progressives try to keep up, but it isn't always easy, and it is the nature of the beast that there will always be a time lag. Just because a person uses the "wrong terminology" does not equate to them being homophobic or transphobic. That's why we need to be careful with describing the immediate "exposed genitals" complaint as transphobic. Other statements made by her? Quite possibly, but not this one. A totally bland mention of the complaint without identifying the fact it was about the "wrong genitals in the wrong room" issue leaves the impression that the complaint must have been transphobic, and that is a clear BLP violation against Gaines.

Next we come to the subject of this thread. Is a source automatically an unreliable source because it sometimes uses politically incorrect terminology? No. Editors can easily choose to use the most advanced and "proper" terminology here when creating content, regardless of the exact terms in the source. We do try to be sensitive when writing content, but editors who have more advanced understandings of the latest changes in terminology must be patient with their fellow editors who aren't "up to date" and AGF. With sources, we can expect that conservative sources are going to be resistant to change and changes in terminology, without it affecting the general reliability of their factual reporting. Their terminology just reveals their bias (a bit backward in the eyes of us progressives). Bias alone does not equate to "not a RS". User:Shibbolethink seems to understand some of what I'm saying. Some other editors have been so unpleasant to me that I feel like I'm being treated as the enemy, even though I will always defend all LGBTQ and transgender rights and the laws that defend them. I'm an old guy who is trying to keep up and it's not easy. That may explain why I no longer dare to comment at the Lia Thomas article talk page. It's a minefield where a single wrong word leads to immediate attacks and bad faith accusations. I'm sick of that.

So here, let's at least not use the "it's politically incorrect" argument to diss Sinclair. No, there are other, much better reasons to do that. They are Fox News lite, and not far behind. Like Fox, they tend to push falsehoods and conspiracy theories. For those reasons, they should not be considered a RS, but that does not mean every station they own is therefore an unreliable source. It is only the very limited Sinclair content that is unreliable, and it really is only a tiny amount, usually clearly identified as Sinclair commentary. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:05, 24 March 2023 (UTC) (pinged User:Shibbolethink -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
From my view, our own personal or political feelings are not helpful for assessing whether or not a source is reliable. I cited a series of sources to identify a potential concern about the use of language in the TND sources brought to this board, because these TND sources have been raised as support for the WP:BLPCRIME/WP:BLPGOSSIP content proposed to be added to the article. So far, sources added to this board are about the parent company Sinclair Broadcast Group, which appears to have a documented history of inaccuracy and bias, as well as sources (the AP citing scholars, etc) that raise a concern that the way certain language is used by the TND in two articles about transgender people indicates that these are not suitable sources for politically-related contentious information about a living transgender person.

To the extent that an RSP greenlit, generally reliable source clearly uses its own reporting voice in a way that disparages transgender people, I can see how that might also not be a suitable source to support a similarly contentious WP:BLPCRIME/WP:BLPGOSSIP claim. But we do not appear to be talking about a generally reliable source, and instead need to at least exercise caution, and the detail of the repeated use by TND of language widely understood to be disparaging by mulitple sources seems to help encourage us to exclude these sources for supporting this WP:BLPCRIME/WP:BLPGOSSIP content. Beccaynr (talk) 03:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Let's get back to basics. The relevant policy is WP:NEWSORG. Do these organizations have a layer of editorial control? Do they correct their errors? Are the particular sources news or opinion? Those are the relevant questions here. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:00, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
The local stations are both marked with a copyright 2023 Sinclair Broadcast Group in the lower right side of their websites, and TND appears to be a SBG production; according to the sources about SBG listed at the top of this thread, the WP:QUESTIONABLE section of the RS guideline also appears relevant, e.g. publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, [...] or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. The first TND source (also published at KATV) heavily relies on rumors and personal opinions from Gaines about her teammates and Thomas; the second only has a brief mention with a hyperlink to the first source, but instead published on the TND website, which was how I first realized this was not reporting by a local station. WP:QUESTIONABLE also says, Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes [...] persons living or dead. By contrast, The Patriot-News reporting on the same news offers context about Gaines and her current political advocacy campaign, clearly identifies what Gaines says as an allegation, places quotes around the phrase "male genitalia", and appears to be an established and well-regarded news source. Beccaynr (talk) 05:39, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
@Beccaynr: We've added sources and our perpectives, and other participants can review and make their own judgments. - Beccaynr 23 March, 8:54 PM (UTC) Please allow others to provide input without risking WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion. Thank you — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 20:11, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
Hi Shibbolethink, when I made my comment above, I was referring to what seemed to me like us potentially continuing to go round-and-round on one tangential issue, not the ongoing larger discussion. I apologize for not making this point more clear, because I did not intend to encourage limitation on a full discussion. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
I started reviewing Media Matters sources that discuss The National Desk:

A year of misinformation on Sinclair's morning show The National Desk (Media Matters, Jan. 19, 2022) - this source says "local TV audiences are regularly exposed to conservative misinformation from right-wing pundits, Republican-aligned industry front groups, and even a representative of an anti-immigration hate group", "including segments from anti-vaccine activist Sharyl Attkisson’s weekly Full Measure program", "has repeatedly aired misinformation on COVID-19 and promoted opponents of vaccination", "been a friendly home for right-wing activists who oppose teaching children about racism and its history", etc. Then there is a list of examples, starting with examples of COVID-19 misinformation (which includes one documented rebuttal), then immigration, the economy, education, and "Platforming pro-insurrection Republican lawmakers and lying about Democrats’ efforts to protect voting rights" (includes an interview with Larry Klayman).
Sinclair has repeatedly turned to a former Trump immigration official who defended family separation for commentary (Media Matters, Feb. 12, 2021) - this source includes an overview of past statements by the former official Mark Morgan, with references that include other news outlets, and states since 2021, appearances by Morgan include "national news packages -- which typically air on dozens of Sinclair stations each time -- and on Sinclair’s morning news program The National Desk, which airs on 68 Sinclair stations." Then there are a list of examples, including a news package quoting Morgan for what is characterized as "a right-wing dog whistle Republicans use to fearmonger about immigration", and a news package quoting Morgan for what is characterized as "fearmongering about a migrant caravan possibly containing people infected with COVID-19, even though it’s unlikely it will make it to the U.S. border."

I encourage everyone to review these and other available sources as well; it may be a bit before I can refocus on the review. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Media Matters is an unreliable source. Their "sources that discuss The National Desk" are worthless. Maine 🦞 12:41, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

According to the WP:MEDIAMATTERS section of WP:RSP, There is consensus that Media Matters is marginally reliable and that its articles should be evaluated for reliability on a case-by-case basis. As a partisan advocacy group, their statements should be attributed. From my view, it may be helpful to sift these sources to examine fact-based examples of inaccuracy and/or bias in TND, or to generally get a better sense of how SBG relates to TND. Beccaynr (talk) 15:04, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

MMFA does a lot of homework that's useful for source evaluations. To actually look at the most recent RfC about them, almost nobody is arguing that they're unreliable, and scant evidence is provided related to unreliability. The primary objection has to do with its political leanings. We treat partisan sources that tend to get the facts right differently from those that don't get the facts right, which is why MMFA is considered reliable-but-partisan (so check against other sources and attribute anything controversial) whereas some others are partisan-and-unreliable (generally avoid). Where it wind up mattering most in practice is in debates over WP:WEIGHT. Partisan sources generally get less weight than other sources, regardless of how reliable they are, when it comes to including material in an article. If we included everything MMFA ever wrote about Fox News in the Fox News article, it would be five times longer than it already is. Here at RSN, however, WP:WEIGHT isn't an issue, and we can freely use partisan reliable sources to the extent they're helpful. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:08, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm familiar with Sinclair, but don't have experience with ND, so did what I always do with a new source: look at what's currently there. I pulled up two articles ripe for exercises of bias and took a look.
The first is about an LGBTQ law vetoed in Kentucky. It's an AP article, so perhaps not a great example, but those aren't immune from being skewed by partisan sources. In this case, I don't see any evidence of that. No sign of problems.
The other is about reparations in San Francisco. Here there are subtle problems. Mainly, Under that plan, Black residents of the city would receive a one-time payment of $5 million, complete and full forgiveness of their personal debt, an annual income of $97,000 and the ability to buy a home within San Francisco city limits for just $1. - This is almost identical to the way the AP wrote about it, but with two key differences. First, ND has changed "$5 million to every eligible Black adult" to "Black residents of the city would receive a one-time payment of $5 million" (everyone, not just those eligible). More problematic, however, is that the AP continued These were some of the more than 100 recommendations made... and Tuesday’s unanimous expressions of support for reparations by the board do not mean all the recommendations will ultimately be adopted, as the body can vote to approve, reject or change any or all of them. But ND omitted that basic information. In other words, according to the ND, the board approved $5 million per person, etc., but it hasn't actually done that.
This is, of course, a sample size of two with one that doesn't have problems and one that's misleading, but that certainly indicates there's something worth exploring here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:08, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
The article opens As San Francisco mulls giving qualifying Black citizens millions of dollars in reparations, which seems pretty clear that it's a matter under consideration. That said, I'm confused by the later sentence The San Francisco Board of Supervisors is expected to implement the committee's recommendations at its next meeting on potential reparations on Sept. 19. Expected by whom, and how would they know that? Although a single article should not in and of itself be disqualifying, I do find this part concerning. Adoring nanny (talk) 05:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

There's no shortage of evidence (including above) that they're biased (which is, of course, distinct from the question of whether they're reliable or not), and that their bias skews their reporting of political topics. We may need more evidence of how other RS view their coverage of general topics, and ideally how often they make (and how often they correct) factual errors there, before we can really judge whether they're reliable or unreliable for general topics, but given the issues above and in the absence of evidence showing them to be regarded by other RS as reliable, I wouldn't rely on them as a source for controversial claims (like the ones which prompted this discussion), just as (in the absence of evidence showing them to be regarded by other RS as generally unreliable) I wouldn't see a reason to doubt them as a source for uncontroversial claims (that the Lakers won such-and-such game, etc). -sche (talk) 00:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Baaz News

Baaz News is a substack-hosted website whose About page describes it as "home to opinions, ideas, and original reporting for the Sikh and Punjabi diaspora."

There is some controversy regarding use of a Baaz News report in the article about Amritpal Singh (activist), a Sikh advocating separatism from India. The article in the question is described as "Original Reporting" by Balpreet Singh, a "spokesperson and legal counsel for the World Sikh Organization of Canada".

Seeking neutral opinions here on the reliability of Baaz News since the editors involved in editing Amritpal Singh (activist) are Indians and/or Sikhs (CalicoMo, Mixmon, Extorc, Kautilya3, ThethPunjabi). 27.111.75.49 (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The "about us" page indicates that it solicits articles from third party sources, and has a small staff to review them before publishing. It characterizes these submissions as ranging from letters to opinion pieces to "original reporting". Although it labeled this particular article as "original reporting", it is authored by an attorney and spokesperson for the WSO of Canada advocacy group. The article itself is therefore similar to an op-ed; it might be used as a source for the author's opinion (assuming that the author is notable) but not for reporting facts. An article in Vice[13] from last February states that the person who runs Baaz News is a board member of the WSO Canada (although I do not see him so listed on the WSO Canada website). See also this profile of its founder.[14] Under all the circumstances, I am inclined to characterize Baaz News as being the publication of an advocacy group because of the apparent connection between its publisher and WSO Canada, rather than as a reliable news organization. Banks Irk (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
cc @ThethPunjabi @Dilpreet Singh Mixmon (talk) 19:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
@Mixmon I have seen this and noted the above user’s judgement. The information is already reported in other sources which can be used instead of Baaz. I want to ask why you said the Sikh Press Association is “unreliable”, please share your reasonings so that we may discuss them. ThethPunjabi (talk) 19:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Sure but for that start a new RSN for that. This one is for Baaz Mixmon (talk) 19:48, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Baaz has reliably and accurately broken stories and would pass WP:USEBYOTHERS based on Canadian media treatment (e.g. CTV News [15], La Presse [16], Toronto Star [17], Vice News [18], and others [19][20]. Of course it will have some inherent bias, but it seems generally reliable. Though of course the rule of using better sources if available would apply. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 13:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Unreliable source pro-Khalistani source. Not sensible to use it anywhere. Capitals00 (talk) 13:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
"Baaz News" is only a substack newsletter, it calls radical Khalistani Amritpal Singh "bhai" (Brother) and doesn't report on any act of vandalism or violence by pro-khalistani group (which is its main topic of coverage). Its co-founder has also openly called for the vandalism of Wikipedia pages (If he is that interested in Wikipedia, he may just publish any random stuff and push for its inclusion in Wikipedia pages).

Jaskaran Sandhu Twitter

@JaskaranSandhu_

CALL TO ACTION: The @Wikipedia page for Amritpal Singh is incredibly poor & a disservice to anyone trying to actually quickly learn who he is. Anti-Sikh disinfo, misinfo, propaganda, & psyops galore
We need Sikhs to get involved with editing.
I am no expert in Wikipedia editing, which is a subculture in of itself. But for those with a history of editing and curation, please get involved. Happy to coordinate however I can.
Wikipedia is often the first place anyone looks when exploring a topic they know little about. And right now the Amritpal Singh page is one-sided pro-govt mess. Straight dishonest and insincere garbage, objectively speaking.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritpal_Singh_(activist)

March 25, 2023^[1]

Mixmon (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

References

^ Sandhu, Jaskaran. "Jaskaran's Tweet". Twitter. Retrieved 2023-03-26.

TaxProf Blog

Is TaxProf Blog reliable for coverage of issues related to U.S. tax law, policy, and similar matters? Chetsford (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:SPS probably applies Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources. Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.

If the blog has no editorial system then it is probably a SPS by an expert usable for non-WP:BLP pages. If it has some editorial system (like the professors edit/peer review each others posts) it may even be a normal WP:RS. But without looking into the source more I'd assume it's a SPS. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 14:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

https://www.website.com

https://www.website.com 103.116.116.70 (talk) 04:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

What claims are you using this website for? Carpimaps (talk) 15:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Website.com isn't a source, it is just a website builder that someone can use to create a website, like WIX or GoDaddy or SquareSpace. The website they create using it may or may not be a reliable source. Again, what is the article, the text and the reference that you are interested in? Banks Irk (talk) 16:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Reliable source?

I was going to update a bio. [21] is the only source I have for this subject. Is it an RS?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what it is in that particular article would be used as a reference in a BLP, but bottom line, the site is reliable for financial/business news. Although it originally started over a decade ago as a blog in a basement, it now has a professional reporting and editorial staff, and is widely cited in other reliable sources. Banks Irk (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
That one is a little tricky. While there is solid RS material on that site, it should be clearly attributed to their direct staff or editors. Benzinga runs both paid press releases and "guest posting" (similar to Forbes Contributor Blogs). The press releases are identified in the URL and attributed to the usual marketing/PR/SEO firms. The guest posting seems to be identified to "contributors", and has an "advertising disclaimer" in the header which notes "This post contains sponsored advertising content." I would not use any of contributor guest posts or the PR material; it's just a blog-like pass-through and advertised heavily on scam SEO sites. I wish they would not mix that in with the normal content. Sam Kuru (talk) 21:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

In concur in Kuru's observations. Banks Irk (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Breitbart is exclusively publishing polls from a reliable pollster

Recently, the deprecated source Breitbart has been routinely releasing exclusive surveys from the well-respected pollster Meganalisis. To my knowledge, Meganalisis has generally been considered to be a reliable source and is frequently quoted on a multitude of Wikipedia articles. Yet they're now running exclusive surveys from a source that has been judged deprecated by Wikipedia editors. (Including on same-sex marriage, abortion, and several other issues.) I wanted to use the data to update this template. Yet I'm deeply uncertain about how I should proceed in this.

It appears that these sorts of exclusives between them and Breitbart are now a regular thing. Generally, I'd state that Breitbart links are inherently unreliable and should almost no be used per consensus... but this feels like a time it might apply. The pollster who provided the data is considered to be a reliable source from my understanding, is frequently quoted for data on Venezuela on here, and is frequently cited. Is there a general agreement on what to do in situations like this?

If a reliable source starts posting information on a deprecated source. What are editors supposed to do? How are we supposed to cite this?

Use their Twitter directly? I don't know if there's an agreement on what to do here.

Thanks. KlayCax (talk) 01:35, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

The original post on Breitbart can be found through the South Florida Gay News link. (Because Breitbart is deprecated I can't directly link it.) Or you can just look up "Polling Shows Abortion, Gay Marriage Deeply Unpopular in Socialist Venezuela". Their Twitter post on showing the data is here. South Florida Gay News references it. But the full dataset isn't on the website - but rather on Breitbart.

Neither option seems better than the others - and referencing one of the three presents serious problems. (As well as not updating the template data to the new information)

Thoughts? KlayCax (talk) 01:54, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I asked @Kwamikagami: and they thought it would be a matter best addressed here - rather than me adding it unilaterally to the template. KlayCax (talk) 02:00, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

FYI - you absolutely can link to a deprecated source on a talk page or noticeboard. Being deprecated does is NOT the same as an outright ban… and linking for the purpose of discussion is appropriate. Blueboar (talk) 02:34, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for the clarification.

The link is here: https://www. breitbart.com/latin-america/2023/02/27/exclusive-polling-shows-abortion-gay-marriage-deeply-unpopular-socialist-venezuela/

It kept getting blocked by the filter. KlayCax (talk) 04:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

This is a weird one. Can we trust Breitbart to accurately -- and completely -- report the polling data? Garbage in, garbage out -- but sometimes even with good data in, we get garbage out. I'm not saying we shouldn't use this though. — kwami (talk) 02:43, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

First big question: Why are you saying Meganalisis is reliable? What's the evidence for that? I'm not saying they're not, but I'm curious why you're saying they are. As far as I can tell, Meganalisis is a private, for-profit research firm. As opposed to an entity like the Pew Research Center, which is funded through a nonprofit with a public interest mission, Meganalisis conducts research for specific client needs, right? It's run by this guy, who seems to be some ideological points to make that are quite compatible with Breitbart, rather than some neutral researcher. Since Breitbart is saying the research is exclusive, we can probably assume they're commissioning the surveys, and thus have total control over what does/doesn't get reported and how it's presented. Since the research doesn't undergo peer review (and absent overwhelming evidence of a reputation for things like methodological rigor), we have to rely on whomever is publishing the research to do the due diligence of evaluating the work, and we know that we cannot rely on Breitbart to do that. In sum, unless there's an awful lot of evidence otherwise, Do not use at all. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:03, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

First big question: Why are you saying Meganalisis is reliable? Because reliable sources routinely cite their polling numbers in articles as authoritative and (at least relatively) accurate. Additionally, polling by Meganalisis is widely cited in a multitude of Wikipedia articles surrounding Venezuela. (Per search)

who seems to be some ideological points to make that are quite compatible with Breitbart, rather than some neutral researcher. Right. That's a concern I have as well. But Fox News, Wall Street Journal, Civiqs/Daily Kos, Public Religion Research Institute, et al. have all expressed opinions as well - and they were deemed reliable. I'm not sure where the line is here.

If Meganalisis isn't reliable, whole articles need to be revised significantly. KlayCax (talk) 04:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps we should look at those other articles and see how the information sourced to Meganalisis there compares to what other sources say; it certainly wouldn't hurt to check. But whether Meganalisis is itself reliable is of secondary concern, I think. Compare how if an outlet is very unreliable, we don't even use it as source for "in an interview with our outlet, X said Y", because (as Kwami says) we can't trust them to be telling the whole truth about what X said or, in this case, what a poll showed. (If reliable sources report on the fact that that the outlet said that X said Y, or report that Breitbart said that a Meganalisis poll showed Y, then we might say "Outlet reported that X said Y", citing the RS and not [only] Outlet; this situation came up with regard to Talk:Killing of Brianna Ghey, for example.) -sche (talk) 08:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Three uses isn't "routinely"; and a Google News search suggests that that it has very little usage or coverage overall. All three are just passing mentions of their polls. And WP:USEBYOTHERS (which, IMHO, you've failed to provide enough usage for to really rely on anyway) is not the only criteria for WP:RS. I definitely dispute your assertion that Meganalisis is a WP:RS; that is to say, I would generally object to citing them directly for anything remotely controversial or exceptional due to their lack of a clear reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. (Though, to be fair, I generally dislike citing pollsters directly in any case.) --Aquillion (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

We don't trust deprecated sources if they happen to say some accurate things. Even if they quote someone, we can't trust the quote. Even if the quote is accurate, we can't trust the context. That Breitbart hired an ordinary polling organisation does not mean we should trust Breitbart's contextualisation or presentation. Because it's a source we have strong reason to distrust and that we don't use in Wikipedia, going so far as to denylist the link. If the claims aren't in an RS, don't use them - David Gerard (talk) 12:20, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

This is why I am wary of deprecation as a concept… there are several ways to look at a situation like this:

The first is to say “If this heretofore reliable pollster is being used exclusively by a deprecated source, then we need to question whether the pollster is as reliable as we thought”
The second is to say “if this reliable pollster is being used exclusively by a deprecated source, then we need to re-examine whether that source should be deprecated”. (Is it possible that the use of a reliable pollster is an indication that the heretofore deprecated source has changed its editorial practices?)
And the third is to say: “The deprecation is still generally valid, BUT the reputation of the pollster is strong enough to make an exception to the deprecation in this specific case.”

I am not arguing for or against any of these (I don’t know either the pollster or the outlet well enough)… merely presenting the options. Blueboar (talk) 14:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

KlayCax: I think you're misunderstanding when you say "Because Breitbart is deprecated I can't directly link it." Actually deprecation doesn't stop linking but the real reason you can't link Breitbart is that it's also on the spam blacklist. I proposed removing but failed. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

If we cannot verify the polling data because of some sort of exclusivity deal between Meganálisis and a far-right media outlet, then that effectively renders the data unusable. Breitbart's contextualization is untrustworthy. Zaathras (talk) 14:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Pollsters poll the questions they're paid to ask, and there are lots of ways to tilt a poll by asking leading questions. The persons paying for the polling have at least as much control (probably more) of the outcome as the pollster does. I think these exclusive polls are unusable. - MrOllie (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

For examples of this, watch congressfolk from any party in a hearing demand yes or no responses to questions that are complex or to which a yes or no response will be misleading. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I was going to say much the same, but you beat me to it. The people paying for the poll set the questions, which makes it inherently unreliable in this case. "So when did you stop beating your wife?" -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:06, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Let me ask a higher level question: why are we including the results of a public poll in our articles? I understand the use of polls on most election articles, and I can understand using polling when to explain , for example, unpopular gov't actions, but not just their use in any random case. --Masem (t) 15:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Very good question. XOR'easter (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm looking at this from the opposite point. If they're working exclusively with Breitbart in any capacity, that doesn't mean we should consider using Breitbart in certain circumstances. It means we should question whether Meganalisis is reliable. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

If no reliable sources cover what they say then it probably isn't WP:DUE in any case. This is especially true for polls, where we'd usually want a high-quality secondary source (one that can perform interpretation and analysis) to evaluate the poll's meaning and provide context, avoiding the risk of editors using primary data from a poll in potentially WP:OR / WP:SYNTHy ways. --Aquillion (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Occasionally saying something true is not a reason to cite a deprecated source. Using a primary source (the polling company) would be original research. If the poll is noteworthy, reliable sources will cover it, otherwise it's not due. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:58, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually, citing the original primary poll might not be Original Research (OR)… that depends on what you say. For example, saying that “according to a poll by XYZ, 15% of respondents said they supported X” would not be OR. That is a descriptive statement that is verified by the Poll itself. Due weight is another issue, and IS a valid concern. Blueboar (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

You would have to be very careful in wording exactly what the respondents are said to have supported, in exactly the same ways in which some poll operators are very careful in wording the questions they ask either to ensure a neutral outcome or to push respondents to the outcome they want to promote. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this. I feel that we use polls as primary sources too freely, especially from dubious or obscure pollsters, but I would personally prefer we avoid primary cites to even high-quality pollsters. The issue is that on eg. politics-related articles (topics that tend to attract huge amounts of polling from a wide range of pollsters approaching the subject from various angles), editors will pull out one number from a larger poll that they personally feel is significant or makes some key point, and present it (often in an extremely prominent way - sometimes by dropping it directly into the lead.) This definitely raises WP:DUE issues (why are we pulling out that specific figure from a huge poll? Why that poll in particular? How do we know it's not an outlier compared to other polls?) and possibly OR issues (since the prominence and placement usually carries an implication of "this number means this.") It's best to rely on reliable secondary coverage, since that can tell us which parts of a poll are important and meaningful in the context of the article's subject. --Aquillion (talk) 22:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

If Breitbart published "The New York Times said Sunday that President McDemocrat drinks nothing but donkey's blood", that would be Breitbart citing a reliable source, but we still could not use it because Breitbart is generally not reliable. The fact that Breitbart here is sourcing a (potentially) reliable source that we cannot verify from the outside does not make them more reliable; it's all still information filtered through Breitbart. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

RFC on the use of maps and charts in Wikipedia articles

This RfC has been expanded since initially opened. The proposals are now:

Proposal 1: original research
- Alternative to proposal 1
Proposal 2: What can be cited to a map?
- Proposal 2a: reliable sourcing
- Proposal 2b: image layers
Proposal 3: history
Proposal 4: notability
- Proposal 4a: Notability - Significant coverage
- Proposal 4b: Notability - Sourced only to maps
Proposal 5: Reliability

New proposals are marked in bold. BilledMammal (talk) 23:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Are counterview.net and countercurrents.org reliable sources?

I want to use some of their articles, namely two that were both written by Harsh Thakor:

1) https://www.counterview.net/2022/10/punjab-students-march-revives-memory-of.html

2) https://countercurrents.org/2021/07/shaheed-prithipal-singh-randhawa-made-immortal-contribution-to-student-movement/

... for writing about the history of a district located within the Indian state of Punjab. I see no past discussions on the former source but for the latter one, past discussions state countercurrents.org may vary in its status as a RS depending on the article in-question and the author of the article, as per WP:SPS. ThethPunjabi (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the first, but I'd see the second as a very weak, borderline source. It's highly partisan so might be good to use with attribution, but I don't think it actively produces disinformation. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Amazon Film List

I used Amazon list of films on a Bio. It appears that Amazon Studios is using part information from IMDB and their own source. They use this to make up and provided their X-ray content. I know that Wiki does not trust IMDB but when Amazon is using part of it there own list of what movies people are in for finding movies. What is the over view on Amazon as source? Reliable or not because partly based on IMDB?

https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Faith-Wright/amzn1.dv.gti.9d994ae8-03d3-4dc0-aa4d-b15182278762/

https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Spencer-Lord/amzn1.dv.gti.f31865b4-f140-4bfc-a5d1-d177e3f9d150/ref=atv_pp_co_2

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/search/ref=atv_dp_pd_dir?phrase=Matt%20Shakman&ie=UTF8 Jsgoodrich (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

No, you cannot use Amazon as a source. This is not a close question. Banks Irk (talk) 00:41, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Jus Mundi

I, and another editor, would like to cite a decision from an arbitration tribunal available on the Jus Mundi website.

The decision is at: https://jusmundi.com/en/document/decision/en-global-institute-on-sharing-all-influenza-data-v-swiss-institute-of-bioinformatics-final-award-thursday-28th-june-2012-1 , with further material here and here. A third user has challenged the use of this source. The source is being used to: confirm what decision was made, and identify the formation date and founding location of the organisation. The article in question is GISAID.

The main quote (following a request for additional sources) reads:

After a legal clash with the SIB,^[1] in which GISAID was ultimately compelled by an arbitration tribunal to pay out more than $1M,^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]

(This likely has too many sources now, but answers about Jus Mundi would be helpful -- confirmation about the status of the other sources would also be useful as doubt has been cast on all. The formation date and founding location points relate to the info-box.)

Related discussions can be found at Talk:GISAID#Dispute with SIB and Talk:GISAID#Addition of relevant sourced information to Infobox. Opinions on this source would be welcome. -Tobeortobebetter (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

JusMundi is merely a search engine; it is not a reliable source. Moreover, the links in footnotes 2-5 are all primary sources. I'd drop them and stick with just refs 1 and 6. Banks Irk (talk) 14:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Two follow up questions:

- Would a PDF of a US district court judgement be better than Jus Mundi?

- How can one prove when a company was founded if not through court documents? Aren't court documents the best one can get, rather than self-reported founding date? AncientWalrus (talk) 15:58, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Q1- No, use FSupp instead.

Q2- Not sure why one would ever use a court document for that purpose. As an aside, if a court decision said that Company X was founded on a certain date, that would actually be a secondary, not primary source. What I would actually check and use as a source is a search of the governmental department where those files were made. In most (but not all) cases, it will show a result for the formation date of the company. For example, the California Sec of State shows 1938 as the formation date of The Walt Disney Company. That is actually a secondary source.The primary source would be the formation documents of the company in the jurisdiction in which it was formed (assuming that it is the kind of entity that must file such documents under applicable law. I would normally use these sources if there were a question as to the accuracy of the company's statement regarding its formation date. Banks Irk (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your helpful answers!

So would it be enough to simply state that the source is: "District of Columbia Department of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs, File Number 263748"? Should I not provide a link to where this can be verified by an interested user?

There are two ways I could find to verify:

- Make a CorpOnline account at https://corponline.dcra.dc.gov/, then click on this link to see the file: https://corponline.dcra.dc.gov/BizEntity.aspx/ViewEntityData?entityId=2689336

- OpenCorporates has this already scraped and available at: https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_dc/EXTUID_2689336 (but I presume OpenCorporates is not a reliable source?)

My feeling is (maybe I'm wrong) that just stating a file number would make it hard to verify and hence it's better to provide links as well, even if they are not necessarily reliable?

Thank you for your time! AncientWalrus (talk) 13:30, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts, and for confirming 1 and 6 are good to go. Jus Mundi is not (simply) a search engine: it also hosts judgements/decisions, like these. As you say, those are primary sources but aren't they a reliable source to what the court decided? -Tobeortobebetter (talk) 15:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Were this an article about the case itself, MOS:LAW would suggest citing both the primary and secondary sources. It would also suggest that neither a site like JusMundi nor a PFD downloaded from PACER is an appropriate reference; you should use a citation to an official Reporter, in this case, 49 F.Supp.3d 92. But this isn't an article within the scope of WikiprojectLaw, it's just a single sentence, essentially a parenthetical for which half-a-dozen references is serious overkill. So my advice is stick to the secondary sources only. Banks Irk (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Banks Irk, I hope you are also feeling the sense that the two complainants above are not truly prepared to listen to community advice such as yours. They are quite skillful at barreling forward with their original designs (and agenda, unfortunately), and even discourteously take time to inform me on my User Talk page of a petty "copyright violation" notice that is based on opinion, but curiously do not inform me of bringing this source dispute to wider attention. I will add here that Jus Mundi allows uploads from the public, and the contents of the uploads are not verified by the hosting company. It can quite easily be used as a revenge platform, as it is being attempted in this situation. - AppleBsTime (talk) 04:51, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I will ignore the off-topic and unfounded allegations in the preceding comment.

In the end, for the article for which this request was started, the secondary sources recommended by @Banks Irk were perfectly sufficient.

However, for posterity and future readers I would like to ask @AppleBsTime

Could you please provide evidence for your caim that Jus Mundi allows unverified user uploads? I was not able to find such a feature.

In contrast, in my research, Jus Mundi appears to be a trusted provider of international arbitration cases, used by reputable organizations such as International Bar Association and the International Chamber of Commerce.

This makes me think that Jus Mundi is rather trustworthy. Lawyers definitely don't want to rely on unchecked, bogus user submitted cases

See https://www.ibanet.org/article/433474e1-0d3b-41fd-9442-2fb2b6f3e623 and https://iccwbo.org/dispute-resolution-services/arbitration/publication-of-icc-arbitral-awards-with-jus-mundi/ AncientWalrus (talk) 05:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

References

^ Flu database rocked by legal row. Nature. 2009.
^ Global Institute on Sharing All Influenza Data v. Swiss Institute of Bioinformatics, SCAI Case No. 300142-2009. JusMundi.
^ Memorandum Opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. JusMundi.
^ Memorandum Opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. CaseText.
^ Memorandum Opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. VLEX.
^ District court confirms arbitration award and grants attorney’s fees, costs, and post-judgment interest where the respondent failed to appear or respond to the petition. Baker McKenzie, on Lexology.

Youtube as source

I have a query regarding this particular edit (which I reverted), the editor used youtube channel of All India Radio as source. Can it be considered reliable in this particular case? Mixmon (talk) 07:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

YouTube is not a reliable source, but channels on YouTube can be. In this case this is the official YouTube channel of All India Radio (that took awhile to confirm, obviously don't take the channels word for it), which is the national broadcaster of India. All India Radio is reliable so it's YouTube channel is as well, although given tensions in India it should be used with caution in contentious topic areas. But, yes, for the specific edit it would be reliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 10:27, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Per AD, YouTube is not a source. It hosts sources. The reliability of any video is attached only to the person or organization that posted it. --Jayron 32 11:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek Article

Looking at the WP:RSP list, Newsweek is listed in this grey area where each article should be determined as notable or not on a case by case basis. Would this article about presidential candidate Steve Laffey count as a notable source? Scu ba (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I think it is, in general, best to avoid post-2013 Newsweek for BLP-related content, given that we expect only the highest-level sourcing for WP:BLPs. I would find better sources for that. --Jayron 32 14:54, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there any reason material in that article is likely to be contested or controversial Scu_ba? It feels like a relatively safe thing to use in Laffley's article, as it is an interview with Laffley himself. I'd avoid using it for a biography of one of his rivals, and it might not be reliable enough to be due in an article about the 2024 GOP candidates, but in Laffley's own article it seems safe enough. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm just checking because of WP:NEWSWEEK. This article was made after 2013. "consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis." Scu ba (talk) 11:16, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

192.com

I feel very uncomfortable using 192.com or any online directory as a source per WP:BLPPRIVACY. It is currently being used as a reference in about 40 articles - can these be removed? Laun chba ller 16:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Checking the first three uses I would agree these should all be removed on WP:BLPPRIVACY grounds. Having links in BLPs that connect subjects names, DOBs, and rough real world location just seems like a bad idea. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm working through them at the moment, removing the ones on biographies, though I've got to go to work in half an hour. Some are actually OK, where they're not on BLPs and they're sourcing the address of a building (i.e. Our Lady Queen of Peace Church, Braintree) although there are probably better ones. Black Kite (talk) 07:49, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I think these are done now. I have left the ones where it was only used to source the address of a building. Black Kite (talk) 11:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Nazi symbolism article, cardcow.com, liveauctioneers.com, symbols.com, etc.

Recently I've been cleaning up Nazi symbolism: Removing obvious WP:RS violations and WP:OR wherever it appears. These include obvious WP:OR links to:

cardcow.com
liveauctioneers.com
a now deleted post by "ProudNordicGirl" on wattpad.com

As well as to poorly sourced, non-WP:RS sites like:

symbols.com (a user-contributed site from non-experts, essentially a wiki)
flagspot.net (complete with citations to old Wikipedia articles)

Many of these were links to articles that even these sites had deleted—someone had fished them up from Archive.org.

Additionally, I've been restructuring and eliminating redundancy to the page, as well as adding new material from WP:RS. I've also been removing non-referenced material.

Sounds great, right? Unfortunately that hasn't been the case: Every one of these changes has repeatedly been blanket reverted by @Beyond My Ken: (example: [22]), claiming such edits "do not have consensus" and that the above listed "sourcing is sufficient"—I kid you not.

But since this user appears to be especially fixated on maintaining the abysmal status quo there—unreferenced paragraphs and exceptionally poor "sources" and all—can we get some more eyes on this article? And maybe some more contributors to hunt down WP:RS-sources, ideally peer-reviewed and from specialist scholars, to get it to a decent state? :bloodofox: (talk) 23:07, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Just want to point out that I have explicitly asked this editor to discuss and justify their edits on the article's talk page, but their response seems to have been to come here instead. There is currently no consensus for the editor's "clean up". Some of the work is probably worthwhile, but, in my opinion, they're using much too blunt a sword and need to focus their changes, hence the need for a consensus discussion on the article talk page, which should precede any discussion here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

As you should know (but seem to deliberately ignore) the WP:ONUS is on those who wish to include disputed content. You always obfuscate what your actual objections are and keep deliberately going on about "consensus" (despite the fact that nobody has agreed with you) to distract from your lack of actual reasons to include fragrantly unreliable sources. I agree with these removals. In what circumstances would fucking WattPad ever be reliable source? Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

This is not the first time this issue has come up with this editor and this subject material. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1038#Beyond My Ken. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

All of the above sources are self evidently unreliable. I'm shocked and amazed that anyone with the experience of BMK would blindly revert this and demand consensus; furthermore in the case of disputes, WP:ONUS has long established that disputed content stays out of articles until there exists clear consensus to include it. --Jayron 32 12:18, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
The sources that you list above are clearly unreliable, but looking at the linked edits, some of the material that you removed and BMK restored was well-sourced, for example to ADL, which is a reliable source for this subject, per multiple prior discussions here at RSN archives. Banks Irk (talk) 12:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Good catch. I had missed that one. In general (as a matter of advice to the OP), it is much better to remove the sources one at a time, with an explanation for each, rather than a mass removal in a single edit. This is pragmatic; it is less likely to be challenged, and also, you're less likely to have the entire set reverted that way. As noted, the ADL source is scrupulously reliable in this context, so it should not have been removed with the other. --Jayron 32 14:41, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

This material was already covered above and redundant. We don't need two sections discussing the Nazi use of Armanen runes. It's worth noting also that the ADL is also not always reliable for this material and their entries should be checked against works from specialist scholars to ensure accuracy. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:51, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:RSPADL disagrees with you on that. --Jayron 32 11:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

And that's irrelevant when we encounter discussion from specialist scholars that indicates that an ADL entry is incorrect, such as was encountered at Black Sun (symbol). :bloodofox: (talk) 15:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Sources disagree, its not our job to decide who is right and who is wrong we provide both opinions proportionate to their coverage in WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Some sources are more appropriate than others and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. If you're not aware that both the ADL and SPLC have historically made outright false statements about this or that symbol over the years, I've got some news for you. While the ADL has cleaned up a lot of its website symbol entries over the years (and so has the SPLC), to this day the ADL still refers to the Wolfsangel as 'an ancient runic symbol'. This is unquestionably incorrect and not a matter of opinion or debate, as any scholastic runologist can tell you. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

If we excluded every source that was wrong one time from ever being used at Wikipedia, we'd have exactly zero sources to ever use. ADL is considered reliable. Full stop. If, in a singular instance it is shown via other scholarship that the ADL was incorrect in something, then we aren't forced to use it in that one instance. That has no bearing on general reliability. If you have an equally reliable source that disagrees with the ADL in this one instance, then cite that source alongside it, and directly attribute each source's information to each. If a preponderance of other reliable sources disagree with the ADL, such that it stands alone compared to the rest of mainstream scholarship, then use a different source. This, however, should be discussed when disputed at the level of the specific contested edit. Not as a general statement of "someone disagreed with the ADL once, and so they shouldn't be considered generally reliable". That's a silly standard to hold any source to. --Jayron 32 16:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

What on earth are you going on about? Nobody has made any such claim about general reliability. It's pretty obvious that the ADL is a good source for discussion of modern far-right groups but a terrible source for, say, historic runology. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

You might want to check Wolfsangel, it would appear to support the assertion that the Wolfsangel is an ancient runic symbol (and if not ancient very very old). Do we need to rewrite Wolfsangel or have you maybe gone beyond your skis just a little but? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:35, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Try reading before linking. The article says: "it is sometimes mistaken as being an ancient rune due to its similarity to the "gibor rune" of the pseudo Armanen runes", which is correct. The Armanen runes were invented in the 19th century. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd read that. Do I understand correctly that your entire issue with the ADL is whether or not the 15th century is ancient history? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Obviously not, read it again. The symbol resembles a modern rune invented in an early 20th century system and is not a component of any ancient runic script. It is in no way an 'ancient runic symbol', despite the ADL's claim, as any beginner runologist would know. The ADL is outright wrong here, as it has been far too many times on related topics in its symbol databases. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

How do you square "It is in no way an 'ancient runic symbol'" with the 15th century use then? Your quibble does appear to be about calling the 15th century ancient. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:04, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you know what runes are? And that they're first from around 150 CE? And surely you realize that a runic systemy invented in the early 20th century (Armanen runes) isn't "ancient", right? Gaining a basic familiarity with atopic before flinging yourself at it will do you a lot of good. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The Wolfsangel is not part of the Armanen runes, it only resembles one of them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Gee, ya don't say. In fact, it isn't a component of any runic alphabet, ancient or modern. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

You keep moving the goalposts, the ADL doesn't say that its a component of a runic alphabet. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Nothing has changed, including my observation that the ADL's claim that the Wolfsangel is an 'an ancient runic symbol' remains outright incorrect. In no way is the Wolfsangel an 'ancient runic symbol'. It is in no concievable way an ancient rune and it only somewhat resembles a modern one. Many of the ADL's database entries that comment on ancient symbol origins are garbled or contain similarly incorrect information. Like it or not, that's the simple reality of the situation, and one that those of us who work in these corners have repeatedly had to respond to. The fact is that the ADL is an extremely poor source for topics like historic runology. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:38, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

So why are the sources calling it a rune and why do sources seem to routinely do this sort of thing... For instance I don't think that those writing about "Nazi runes" are actually writing about the genuine runic alphabets but about pseudo historical concepts that came much later. Does that mean that any source which uses "rune" to refer to something other than a genuine part of a germanic runic alphabets is automatically unreliable in your opinion? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Quality sources on the history of the Wolfsangel certainly don't refer to the Wolfsangel as an 'ancient runic symbol'. It's obviously not. Nazi Germany saw use of Armanen runes here and there (most famously in the logo of the SS). Nazi Germany saw use of a lot of other symbols. One of those symbols was the Wolfsangel. It's crucial that we use high-quality, ideally peer-reviewed sources from specialist academiocs for these articles. There are no shortage of such sources. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

So again... If the ADL said "early modern runic symbol" you would not object to the ADL's use? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Enough. There's no 'again' here: If the ADL had gotten it right, we wouldn't be having this 'discussion'. To get it right, all the ADL had to say is that the Wolfsangel is an old symbol used for this and that in the past, and maybe throw in some references to actual scholarship on the topic getting even more specific about dates and usage. They could even add that it somewhat resembles a rune from the modern Armanen row. All that would be accurate. Calling it an 'ancient runic symbol' is not. Guido von List believed his 'revealed' runes were ancient. We have no reason to believe they were. It is an unfortunate reality that both the ADL and the SPLC have a history of presenting poor research to the public on the history of topics like runes. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

+1. Every source is reliable or not in context. The ADL isn't a good source for ancient history, and that's OK. It doesn't mean we can't use them for other things. MrOllie (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok, Bloodofox, you've convinced everyone; but more on my earlier point, how is someone to know all of this nuance when you just mass remove a bunch of material with little explanation. As I said above, all of your removals (and now, due to your clear explanations here, including the ADL one) are perfectly valid and reasonable. The issue is that when you don't plan ahead for what others will reasonably do when they encounter your edits, you end up spending much more work and effort justifying your confusing actions after the fact. I reiterate my advice above: When removing bad sources, take a little extra time up front to remove each source one edit at a time, and explain in each edit summary why it is removed; alternatively, you could leave a notification on the article talk page explaining in detail why each source was removed. Not something like "I removed a bunch of bad sources" but rather, "I removed source XXX for reason YYY, and and I removed source AAA for reason BBB" and so on. Assume everyone who isn't you won't understand why you're doing what you're doing, and cover your tracks. Even if it seems obvious to you, most people won't understand, and when people don't understand what you're doing, they're more likely to revert everything you did. Should they do that? Probably not. That doesn't matter. If you assume they will anyways, and take appropriate action ahead of time to head that off, it will avoid a lot of unpleasantness later. --Jayron 32 12:07, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Is this source reliable for historical facts?

MEENAS were rulers prior to the Kacchwaha Rajputs of Jaipur -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 01:53, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

No. It is merely a travel site, not reliable for history. Banks Irk (talk) 02:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

This site appears to be, at least in part, user generated content. See their page on submitting articles. And so wouldn't be a reliable source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:29, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Milano Finanza

Is Milano Finanza (https://www.milanofinanza.it/) a confidential source? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I assume you mean reliable, rather than confidential. WP:NEWSORG applies to Milano Finanza; it is a well-regarded news publication for business and financial matters. It does host some content that is re-published and shared from other reliable news organizations. However, it may have some content that is more reliable, and other less reliable. Context is required before making a blanket judgment. What is the reference that you want to cite, and to support what statement in what article? Banks Irk (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
I just wanted to know if this report: (https://www.milanofinanza.it/news/l-italia-potrebbe-vendere-jet-typhoon-di-seconda-mano-alla-polonia-quali-vantaggi-per-leonardo-202303301120565298?s=09) is trustworthy? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 20:08, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
The author is an experienced reporter with news organizations, including 24 years with Milano Finanz. My one caution - I can't read the whole article, because I'm not a subscriber - the bit that I can read says that she is reporting in part based on something from "a Polish website". Without reading more, I would be careful to say that , "MF reported that a Polish website said...." not for the truth of what the Polish website said. Banks Irk (talk) 20:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Is ucanews.com a reliable source?

Is the Union of Catholic Asian News (www.ucanews.com) a reliable source? It's used on over 400 pages, according to a quick search. Edward-Woodrow (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Depends on how it's being used. Might be OK for some purposes; for others, not so much. Not going through 400+ pages. Got some examples where you think it should or shouldn't be cited? Banks Irk (talk) 23:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
I think it's reliable in what seem to be its areas of expertise: Catholicism and Asia. I would say it is being used appropriately at Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Lahore and Ahmad Yani-class frigate. However, I wouldn't really consider it a reliable source for peripheral facts- for example, a brief mention in one of its articles regarding an unrelated topic might not be reliable. Edward-Woodrow (talk) 23:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Start deleting the references on matters outside that scope. See if anybody objects; if so, take it up on the article talk page. If you can't resolve it there, come back here. Banks Irk (talk) 00:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Murder of Don Banfield and use of Court Documents

Murder of Don Banfield

[appeal summary] of the case is relied on for basic facts. While many can be re-attributed to reliable secondary sources, a reading has me concerned that there are little finding of fact by the Court to make the document usable. It appears to summarize the Crown and Defense's positions without critical assessment. Can the Crown and Defense statements be used? Or should only material found in secondary sources being used. Slywriter (talk) 16:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

No, since these statements are made to petition the court/judge, and so while there's likely any doubt in the factual basis, these can still be circumspect. Masem (t) 16:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

In general, court documents should only be used as supplements to reliable secondary sources that discuss them. For example, if The Guardian had written an article which discussed the court documents in question, then you would cite the Guardian article that is acting as your main source, and you could also cite the court documents as a supplementary source; however everything written in Wikipedia should always be evident only from the information in the Guardian article alone (i.e. the citation to the court documents are not necessary to verify anything written in Wikipedia, they only exist to provide additional context but are not strictly necessary). You should never use text of a court document as the sole source for anything written in Wikipedia. See WP:BLPPRIMARY, which says, to wit, "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person...Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source" --Jayron 32 15:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Agree with Jayron, with the caveat that court documents may be used to verify basic, uncontroversial information about the legal proceeding that is not actually about the BLP subject (e.g. such as the name of the judge that issued the ruling, what court issued the ruling, the date of the ruling). ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:54, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Franco Serafini, Linoli and the miracle of Lanciano

There has been a discussion (that I started) on the talk page of the miracle of Lanciano about a book written by Franco Serafini: A Cardiologist Examines Jesus: The Stunning Science Behind Eucharistic Miracles published by Sophia Institute Press

It is used to cite: "In November 1970, at the request of the Archbishop of Lanciano, Pacifico Maria Luigi Perantoni, and the Provincial Superior of the Order of Friars Minor Conventual of the Abruzzo region, Bruno Luciani, the Franciscan friars of Lanciano, who guarded the relics, decided, with the authorization of the Vatican, to have them subjected to medical-scientific analysis. The task was entrusted to Odoardo Linoli, head of the laboratory of clinical analysis and pathological anatomy of the hospital of Arezzo - full professor of anatomy, histology, chemistry, and clinical microscopy - and to Ruggero Bertelli, professor of anatomy at the University of Siena. The examination revealed that the relics were human heart muscle tissue"

Is this a reliable source and should it be used in the article?

The analysis of Linoli in Italian. The journal Quaderni Sclavo di diagnostica clinica e di laboratorio seems to have been in operation from 1971 to 1988. The article has maybe been cited once.

Is this article a reliable source? Should it be used in the article? 2A02:1810:BCA9:3A00:658E:332A:F320:38F9 (talk) 12:18, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

It's reliable for saying that 1) The analysis happened, 2) that the analysis was done by the named individuals and 3) summarizing the conclusions of the named individuals. I don't see a problem using it for that purpose. The question of "should it be used in the article" is a matter of WP:UNDUE, and that's outside the remit of this board. I suggest starting a discussion on the article talk page. --Jayron 32 12:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Potentially contentious draft (on massacre in Kosovo) – are these sources reliable?

I'm reviewing this draft Draft:Llovcë massacre at AfC, and although it does cite three sources with sigcov, I'm not sure how reliable those sources are. My gut feeling (and it is only that) is that this probably is okay, this possibly isn't, and I really can't tell about this (looks like a portal, rather than a source?). Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I can't comment on any of those three sources (my gut feeling would be the same as yours) but it feels to me that an article on an event during a war should not be sourced wholly from sources on one side of the conflict, unless they were absolutely sold sources. (And, this is a notability concern rather than a reliability one, the apparent absence of other reliable sources, in English or any other language, suggests the event might not be worth an article.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:31, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Bobfrombrockley. That was my concern, precisely. I didn't want to create a diplomatic incident (!) by declaring something a massacre, just because some sources say so. Nor do I want, of course, to do the opposite, hence why I'm trying to understand the merits or otherwise of the sourcing. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

The first two identify as "portals", the third as a regional news agency (according to google translate). If there are no other sources this seems a bit thin for an article on such a delicate subject. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 02:44, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Canadian Running Magazine (runningmagazine.ca)

Hi there, I was interested in knowing if the Canadian Running Magazine would be considered reliable enough for the topic I'm interested in working on. It's a niche web news site which covers running/track/marathon topics.

I was interested in improving the Draft:Ryan Trahan draft as it is currently not doing so well. This article, if considered reliable enough, would substantially help my goal to improve the draft's quality.

Is this a reliable source for the article? B3251 (talk) 02:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. But it may not be the kind of source that contributes too much towards notability. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 02:57, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure there's more sources out there for other topics relating to him, but I just wanted to double check since I really wanted to improve some portions of it incase anybody else in the future would like to pick up on it. Thanks! B3251 (talk) 02:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Useful source for Bhairavlal Kala Badal

[23][24][25][26][27][28] -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Why are you posting them here? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Are all these sources reliable? -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 10:21, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I looked at your 3 first.

[29] seems to have some content on the subject, but I have no idea what "Universal Book Depot" is, and I can't read it beyond snippets.
[30] What text do you intend to add to the article based on it?
[31] What text do you intend to add to the article based on it?

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:51, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

WPG Police Cause Harm

The website "WPG Police Cause Harm" is used at Winnipeg Police Service. My concern is that it appears to be a personal website and blog, with a gmail address. The only information I could find is that it is a "social advocacy group".

The count of the 19 people who Winnipeg Police killed does not include those who died in police custody, any incidents not disclosed to police oversight bodies, nor those who the police shot but who did not die.

Source: https://winnipegpolicecauseharm.org/blog/when-winnipeg-police-caused-harm-in-2020/

In the year 2019 alone, the Winnipeg Police killed seven people.

Sources: http://twitter.com/WpgPoliceHarm/status/1239233143791591426 and https://twitter.com/WpgPoliceHarm/status/1239233571962998791

and filed 857 use-of-force reports, including 154 Taser deployments.

Source: https://winnipegpolicecauseharm.org/blog/when-winnipeg-police-caused-harm-in-2020/

and “the highest proportion of spending by police of any major city in Canada.”

Source: https://winnipegpolicecauseharm.org/blog/history-of-wpch/

“About,” online: Wpg Police Cause Harm

Source: http://winnipegpolicecauseharm.org/about/

Thank you. --Magnolia677 (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Not Reliable. An anonymous individual or group blog by a self-proclaimed advocacy group just a WP:SPS and should not be used as a source. Banks Irk (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Based on a little bit of using the Google machine, it appear that the principal spokesperson, and likely author of of the website/blog for the group is James Wilt, an independent journalist. I don't see anything in his Wikipedia BLP or in other sources about him that he would qualify under the previously-published subject-matter expert exception to SPS. Banks Irk (talk) 17:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Likely, but not defiantly is. so, it can in fact be written by anyone, so it's a blog and fails SPS. Slatersteven (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment - Also, my apology for appearing to forum shop, but I started a discussion yesterday at WT:LE#Winnipeg Police Service for assistance cleaning up a large WP:UNDUE and WP:IMPARTIAL addition by a new editor. I have left a message there, inviting input here. Thank you for your understanding. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Not a problem. When I looked at the discussion on that talkpage and the underlying article, it was obvious that the question about sourcing would end up at RSN sooner or later. Banks Irk (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Banks Irk did you also see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Law Enforcement? This editor is forum shopping - hopping from place to place to find someone who agrees with him when he doesn't like an answer he gets elsewhere. His refusal to wait for consensus and subsequent edit warring resulted in the article being fully-protected for a few days. I don't think coming here (right now) is helping the discussion. 10mmsocket (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Which part of my last post don't you understand? This is not helpful; RSN is to discuss reliable sources, not the conduct of editors. The source WPCH is not reliable, period, full stop. It should not be used as a source. Banks Irk (talk) 22:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

See WP:FORUMSHOP. Sage advice. Keep the discussion in one place. 10mmsocket (talk) 07:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Truth be told, I realized more experienced eyes needed to be on this train wreck of an edit sourced by Twitter feeds, personal blogs, and blacklisted sites...after you commented: "the section uses a number of local and national sources that seem reliable - and I did search WP:RSN and WP:RSP". Magnolia677 (talk) 13:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

*Taking just a cursory look, there are major issues with sourcing in that article beyond just WPCH.org, and beyond just the "Criticism" Section. Rather than a whole series of new posts on the subject here at RSN, or diving into the talkpage morass, I'll observe the following: Footnote 6 is to a blog (heritagewinnipeg.blogspot.ca}; Footnote 8 is to a primary source, a poll released by the pollster (angusreid.org), not reported on by an independent, secondary reliable source; Footnotes 10, 11, 12, 23 (which is to a tweet) and 24 all cite WPCH.org, not a reliable source; Footnotes 13 and 24 cite change.org, and online petition site, not a reliable source; Footnotes 19 and 20 cite the same editorial in CanadianDimension.com by Mr Wilt, the WPCH spokesman - an editorial is not a reliable source for reporting facts, just the opinion of the writer (assuming they and their opinion are notable); Footnote 25, similar to Footnote 8, is a primary source, a survey result powerpoint presentation released by the organization that conducted the survey (spcw.mb.ca), again not reported on by an independent, secondary reliable source. And, while I have some serious doubts about some of the tabloid news stories used as sources, that's a bigger can of worms that I'll let go. Banks Irk (talk) 16:33, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there a consensus that "Winnipeg Police Cause Harm" is not a reliable source? Can it now be removed from the article? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:17, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

No-one has advanced any argument here that this advocacy-group anonymous blog is a reliable source. Experienced editors are unanimous that it is a WP:SPS that is not reliable, and should be removed as a reference in the article. 10mmsocket has been warned by an admin at WP:RPP [32] about restoring unsourced material. Banks Irk (talk) 11:47, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Catholic Standard

I'm thinking of making a section to Georgetown Preparatory School talking about their $8,000,000 new stadium donated by and dedicated to Michael Bidwill and Bill Bidwill. One of the main sources for this prospective section is this article by the Catholic Standard. I don't see any consensus on if they are a reliable source or not. Would it be appropriate to include this source? Scu ba (talk) 02:12, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Whatever the papers general reliability may be, Georgetown Preparatory School is a catholic school in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington whose newspaper the Catholic Standard is. So I would assume that for this information it is an acceptable source. (If you go beyond straight and simple facts things may be different since there may be an independence issue.) Random person no 362478479 (talk) 02:30, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly on the independence issue. they don't really give any opinions in the article, just talking about how the school has a new stadium, and a new dorm. Regardless I'll omit any opinion in the section on the Georgetown article. Scu ba (talk) 02:41, 1 April 2023 (U

Hello, Scu ba. Your section on the new stadium tells readers very little about the building other than its seating capacity and the size of the financial donation that backed the construction. In my view, you are devoting excessive attention to the various people peripherally involved with this facility and its dedication, and far too little to the actual building itself. Cullen328 (talk) 09:34, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

e-pao.net

This website has some WP-presence [33], but per [34] it appears to be WP:USERG, is that a reasonable reading? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't look like a reliable source to me at all. They ask people to contribute -- even anonymously -- and there is no indication that there is any editorial review other than that they claim "the sole authority to decide whether or not to webcast the contributed item". Apart from user contributions they republish content from news sources, e.g. a lot of content seems to come from The Sangai Express, so some of the references may not be entirely beyond saving if they can be replaced with references to original publications. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:28, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Reply All/Wiretap podcast for BLP info on Mason Reese

Is this podcast episode reliable for this information added to Mason Reese? Nightscream (talk) 14:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Well as a post bast it is a wp:sps so for use in a wp:blp I doubt is very much. Slatersteven (talk) 15:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Agree. A podcast is a SPS that can't be used in a BLP. Banks Irk (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I also agree, pretty clear SPS, which is a no go. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. I wasn't sure if that was a well-known (and possible RS) podcast, or just one more published by a non-RS. Nightscream (talk) 19:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

This is actually not a self-published source. Gimlet Media produced Reply All (podcast), which was a major independent producer of podcasts before they were acquired by Spotify. The people involved were formerly journalists at WNYC and for This American Life. It's no more a self-published source than a BBC or NPR radio documentary. Podcasting primarily a distribution method, but just like a web page or a book it can be self-published or not, reliable or not. Jahaza (talk) 21:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven, Banks Irk, and ScottishFinnishRadish: Do you agree with what Jahaza stated? Nightscream (talk) 01:25, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

No. It is still a SPS. Banks Irk (talk) 01:32, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Being produced by a podcast production company is not the same as having oversight from the editorial board of a news organization. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, having been employed as a journalist grants no inherent reliability (and there are many examples to the contrary). Journalists are only reliable when their words are published by established organizations with strong editorial oversight. And since journalists don't count as published subject-matter experts, WP:EXPERTSPS goes out the window too. Not usable. DFlhb (talk) 01:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I think you badly misunderstand how much editorial oversight there is in book, magazine, or newspaper publishing.

You also completely misunderstand the role of an "editorial board" in a news organization, which doesn't have an oversight of its news operation. The exact opposite in fact, the editorial board of a newspaper is on the opinion side and is specifically sequestered from oversight of news coverage. Jahaza (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

No, as whilst it may be hosted by Gimlit there is no evidence its still not (in effect) a video blog. The BBC operates an editorial policy, when it does not (as with any newspaper) it is marked as opinion. Gimlit does not appear to do that. Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

It's not a blog and it's not video. These basic errors suggests you're not at all familiar with the source. (And it's "Gimlet" not "Gimlit.")

The BBC does not mark its audio documentaries as news or opinion (frequently they contain both reporting and opinion), listeners are expected to recognize this by context and content (that's how scholarly books and journal articles work too, by the way). Jahaza (talk) 02:17, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

@Jahaza: Something I should've looked into before but didn't think to: Is the Jonathan Goldstein who hosts that podcast the same as this Jonathan Goldstein? Nightscream (talk) 21:23, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Are these WP:ABOUTSELF claims made by the subject during the podcast? Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

The material in question consists of:

* His birthday, which is given by his mother, who is also interviewed

* Reese's statement that he knew how to pronounce the word smorgasboard, but was asked to mispronounce it by an ad executive working on the TV commercial he did as a child

* The fact that he has a brother and a sister, which was added by the editor who first added this material and cited this source, though I could not find anywhere in the podcast where he or the host/interviewer gave it. Nightscream (talk) 21:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Is this article on www.learnreligions.com a reliable source?

I want to cite information contained in this article authored by Sukhmandir Khalsa, who is a "Sikh author, educator, and the president of Dharam Khand Sikh Academy" for some Sikh Wikipedia articles related to historical personalities. Can this be article from this site be used as a reliable source on Wikipedia? ThethPunjabi (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't look like a high quality source to me. It belongs to Dotdash Meredith for whose reliability status there is currently no consensus (see here). On the positive side learnreligions does have editorial review. I would treat it carefully and only use it if no better sources are available. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@Random person no 362478479 Thank you for providing your evaluation. I found the information in other more reliable sources so I decided to forgo using the one above. Cheers, ThethPunjabi (talk) 02:32, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@ThethPunjabi@Random person no 362478479 I may be grumpy here, but "dedicated to helping readers deepen their faith" is a bit of a red flag to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:02, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång I don't particularly like that either. But since they deal with all kinds of religion and not pushing one particular faith I wouldn't categorise it as obviously unreliable. Clearly they are very pro-religion, and many of the authors seem to be clergy of one kind or another. But that may be an overly broad reason for excluding it. What about Newspapers published by religious institutions (e.g. vaticannews), or books by theologians? That being said, I strongly suspect that for anything relevant on learnreligions there will be much better and significantly more reliable sources available elsewhere. So I would treat it carefully and avoid if possible, but not necessarily classify it as generally unreliable. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 13:00, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:04, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Requesting inputs (encyclopedic legal coverage)

Requesting inputs. A discussion is initiated @ Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Legal#Attention to updating of MOS guidelines
Since already a guide line was mentioned there @ WT:MOS/legal besides for discussion on legal aspects it's usually beneficial if one is already informed or exposed to legal terminologies at least in early stage discussions. But few users have suggested me WP:RSN or WT:LAW to be better forums for policy discussions. Whether , at what point and which forum? is better to shift the discussion, if at all, without attracting forum shopping objections. Please guide on this point too.

Bookku (talk) 11:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Daily Mirror

What exactly is the consensus regarding quotes from The Daily Mirror. I'd like to include the following quote box on piri (the information from which had previously appeared in reworded form in an earlier version of the article but I think really needs to stay in quotes):

I’m from a middle class family so my maintenance loan was the lowest possible. My parents are good earners but they didn’t have spare cash to lend. I was £2,000 short on rent in my third year so I had to come up with money. Over the three years it just got worse and worse. I worked all summer at Asda but still ended up negative. It was really bad. By the third year I’d maxed out my overdraft, I owed two people £200 and I could barely buy food.

—piri on her OnlyFans^[1]

Laun chba ller 09:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:DAILYMIRROR says The Daily Mirror is a tabloid newspaper that publishes tabloid journalism. There is no consensus on whether its reliability is comparable to that of British tabloids such as the Daily Mail and The Sun. The most recent discussion linked from RSP is this one. Personally I wouldn't bother with the quote – the Times article we already cite covers the same material without any concerns about relying on a questionable tabloid, and I don't see how that particular quote is that important. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:09, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

References

^ "Desperate students turn to sex and OnlyFans after lockdown kills pub and shop jobs". The Daily Mirror. 10 April 2021. Retrieved 25 January 2023.

Do the actions of a Jezebel writer reflect on the source?

Recently a writer for Jezebel was suspended from Twitter for impersonating Justice Samuel Alito's Twitter account (cached copy [35], new account stating the suspension [36], writer's page on Jezebel [37]). Does this reflect on Jezebel that this is the sort of person they employ as a "senior reporter covering abortion access, reproductive health and politics". Would this disqualify the writer's specific work as unreliable based on clear and overwhelming bias/bad judgment? I'm really asking more than telling. I do think it reflects very badly on the source to employ someone who was willing to mislead readers in public. However, I'm not sure it fits one of our specific criteria we typically use to judge reliability. Springee (talk) 02:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

If Jezebel has not commented and distanced itself from the writer, or some statement of apology, I would definitely question their reliability. That type of post-incident event is associated with editorial oversight we expect to see. Masem (t) 02:26, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

So, no actual article on Alito by the person involved here? A lot of people, including journalists, did the fake impersonation thing back when Musk bought Twitter as well. And this account didn't even change their bio or any other information. I don't see why Jezebel would have to care? This sounds like you're trying to get a certain political viewpoint downgraded for something irrelevant to reliability. Silver seren^C 02:44, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Not sure how messing with the ever-changing Twitter blue tick system much affects the reliability of either Jezebel or the individual writer. CMD (talk) 02:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this reflects on Jezebel's reliability at all. A twitter impersonation suspenspension on April Fools Day is hardly the type of fabricating content we depreciate sources for. Plus they posted clarifying it was a joke in your second link. A journalist being silly for a bit doesn't depreciate their published work. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 02:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

A writer doing something funny and/or stupid on Twitter does not cause a source to be downgraded. If it did, we'd run out of sources. Not that it even matters in this case; WP:JEZEBEL is already considered a questionable source that shouldn't be used for anything contentious or controversial. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Very little that happens on twitter could have an impact on the reliability of a person who lives in the real world. This is certainly isn't one of those cases, there is no reason to consider the writer to be unreliable due to this incident. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Is The Ditch a reliable source for political news?

Recent edits by Seanodeorain have added controversy sections to biographies of Irish politicians (Cathal Crowe and Niall Collins) based on reporting from The Ditch. I question whether this site constitutes a reliable source, given that it is run by two rather unknown journalists, and backed financially by Paddy Cosgrave, known for controversial opinions (based on his wiki article content). Given that the site is being used to verify some rather controversial content, I think an assessment of its reliability is in order. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:48, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

The Ditch undertakes investigative journalism. Anyone following Irish politics in the last number of months cannot fail to have noticed that it has been responsible for breaking numerous stories that have been picked up by other news outlets and have ultimately led to the resignation of some politicians. The Ditch broke the story that led to Damien English resigning from his ministerial position. It also uncovered information about Robert Troy that led to his ministerial resignation. The fact the ministers resigned in both cases underlines the credibility of The Ditch's reporting. The Ditch is already cited in the Wikipedia page on Damien English. In the case of The Ditch's allegations regarding Niall Collins, it is clear that what has been uncovered about Collins' dishonesty when filling out a planning application form is true. Collins has repeatedly chosen to avoid answering key questions related to the matter. The Ditch's reporting in the public interest in recent months has uncovered a lot of important information about politicians, etc. breaking the law. All these politicians could sue The Ditch for defamation if they so wished. The Irish Times reported only last week on the severity of the Irish state's defamation laws and their chilling effect on journalists. Seanodeorain (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Unreliability of Hasht e Subh

A source that is often cited on articles relating to modern Afghan politics is Hasht e Subh, either via its current 8am.media or former 8am.af domain. It should be seen as an unreliable source, based on a clearly identifiable trend of it propagating fake news. Three prominent examples that demonstrate this are listed below.

On 15 May 2022, Hasht e Subh claimed on its website that it had been "confirmed" that the then-deputy head of the 205 Al-Badr Corps Mawlawi Abdul Ghafar Mohammadi had been killed in Panjshir province on 13 May.^[1] On 26 October 2022, it was reported by Bakhtar News Agency that he had been appointed to head the Air Force of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.^[2] On 30 October 2022, the Afghan Ministry of Defense reported that he attended a ceremony in which he passed on his position as deputy of the 205 Al-Badr Corps to Mawlawi Bari Gul "Talib."^[3] On 30 November 2022, Radio Television Afghanistan published images of Mawlawi Abdul Ghafar Mohammadi visiting Ghor, having assumed his new position as head of the Air Force.^[4] It is obvious from this that the original claims made by Hasht e Subh of him having been killed were wrong, despite the source claiming it was "confirmed." As of 4 April 2023, the original article from Hasht e Subh has not been amended, nor has any correction been issued.
On 5 January 2023, Hasht e Subh claimed on its website that Pakistan had launched a set of airstrikes on Gushta district, Nangarhar province.^[5] This was promptly refuted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan, which called the claims made by Hasht e Subh “utterly baseless and malicious.”^[6] No evidence of these strikes has been published, nor has any official confirmation of them taking place been made by either side. Despite this, as of 4 April 2023, the article remains published without any correction or amendment being made.
On 29 August 2022, Hasht e Subh claimed that General Kenneth F. McKenzie had stated that American forces were likely to return to Afghanistan.^[7] This claim is entirely fabricated, and a simple Google search of the quotes provided in the article shows that they are not found in any other source. There is not even one other source, let alone a reliable one, that corroborates McKenzie making such a statement. This is despite the fact that such a statement would usually attract media attention and be widely reported. As of 4 April 2023, the fake claim remains on the website.

Taking the above into consideration, using Hasht e Subh as a source for anything relating to Afghanistan should be heavily discouraged. I suggest that it is removed from all articles that it currently appears in.

References

^ "Deputy Commander of the Taliban's Badri Forces Unit Killed in Panjshir". Hasht e Subh. 15 May 2022. Retrieved 2023-04-04. Local sources in Kandahar province have confirmed that the Deputy Commander of Taliban's Badri Forces Unit named Mullah Abdul Ghafar has been killed in clashes in Panjshir province. He was killed by the Resistance forces on Friday, May 13.
^ Bakhtar News Agency [@BakhtarNA] (October 26, 2022). "براساس فرمان عالی‌قدر امیرالمؤمنین حفظه الله، ملا عبدالغفار محمدی، معاون پیشین قول اردوی 205 البدر به‌حیث قوماندان قوای هوایی وزارت دفاع ملی گماشته شد" [According to the decree of the Supreme Commander of the Faithful, may God preserve him, Mawlawi Abdul Ghafar Mohammadi, the former deputy commander of the 205th Al-Badr Army Corps, was appointed as the commander of the air force of the Ministry of National Defense.] (Tweet) (in Dari) – via Twitter.
^ "معاون قول اردو ۲۰۵ البدر امروز رسما معرفی شد" [The deputy of the 205th Al-Badr Army Corps was officially introduced today]. Ministry of Defense (Afghanistan) (in Dari). Retrieved 2023-04-04.
^ Radio Television Afghanistan [@rtaenglish] (November 30, 2022). "Mawlawi Abdul Ghafar Mohammadi, the general commander of the country's air force, has traveled to Ghor at the head of a delegation" (Tweet). Retrieved 2023-04-04 – via Twitter.
^ Khalid, Sakhi (5 January 2023). "Pakistan Launches Air Strikes on TTP Strongholds in Eastern Afghanistan's Nangarhar". Hasht e Subh. Retrieved 2023-04-04.
^ Siddiqui, Naveed (2023-01-05). "FO rubbishes reports of Pakistan air strikes in Afghanistan". Dawn. Retrieved 2023-04-04.
^ "US Forces Likely to Return Back to Afghanistan: McKenzie". Hasht e Subh. 29 August 2022. Retrieved 2023-04-04.

Daniel222potato (talk) 04:46, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Case 1: "The Taliban said that it isn't true" is not the best argument I can think of.

Case 2: Neither is "the Pakistani government denied it".

Case 3: They attribute the claim to Al Arabiya.

Accusing them of "propagating fake news" rings some alarm bells given that that is the reason the Taliban gave for shutting them down.[38][39][40] Random person no 362478479 (talk) 06:20, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Case 1: There's evidence of him alive, it's not just a claim. You can see the MoD's post for example, along with the later RTA tweet. He even appeared in a video denying the claims that he was killed, denouncing it as fake news.

Case 2: When such events actually take place they are reported on by both governments, not denied and described as malicious.

Case 3: Yes, they do. The problem is that there is no Al-Arabiya report. One can search all they wish, but they will not find it. Searching the topic in general brings up only their article.

The Taliban did indeed ban them, but that does not change the fact that they do actually propagate fake news. Daniel222potato (talk) 06:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

McKenzie retired in 2022 and gave a lot of interviews that are in line with what Hasht e Subh reported. E.g. here: https://aamajnews24.com/mckenzi-3/ Random person no 362478479 (talk) 07:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Usage of reliable sources and verification in a BLP

I'm interested in finding out if I am wrong in my understanding regarding reliable sourcing, verification and BLP. There's a discussion at Talk:Cases of Stübing v. Germany regarding a paragraph sourced to a BBC article. The statement made within that BBC article attributes the claim mentioned in our article to an unnamed Der Spiegel article. The BBC source itself is here [41]. The Der Spiegel source the BBC mentions cannot be found by me.

The sentence from the BBC article reads "According to Spiegel online, while Patrick was in prison Susan had a fifth child with another man."

By my understanding of reliable sourcing, BLP, and verification, the BBC source in this case isn't acceptable and the statement needs to be attributable, cited, and validated to Der Spiegel. In this case, as the BBC article doesn't link to the Der Spiegel article and nobody has yet been able to find it, the statement fails validation. Is my understanding of this incorrect?

I should add the discussion is actually resolved now as nobody found the paragraph (now deleted) from the article particularly important, but I want to know if I'm completely wrong about my view on this. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 00:34, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

The original article seems to be this one: "Während Patrick seine Strafe absitzt, lernt seine Schwester einen anderen Mann kennen, den 49 Jahre alten Jürgen B. Mit ihm bekommt sie ihr fünftes Kind - Sophira." Sam Kuru (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I would call that confirmed. BD2412 T 01:44, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for that. I'm really just curious if my position regarding verification was correct. Assume the Spiegel article was no longer available. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 14:16, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

If BBC reports that Der Spiegel reported something, that is a solid source for the proposition that Der Spiegel actually reported that something. Absent the final point of verification, we could say something along the lines of, "The BBC noted that Der Spiegel reported that..." BD2412 T 15:50, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

That is very helpful, thank you. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 16:31, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree with BD2412's suggestion - similar to WP:SAYWHERE. JennyOz (talk) 05:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd say that both Der Speigel and the BBC are reliable enough that if one attributes a fact to the other we can just report that fact without any attribution or caveats, unless there is a reliable source contradicting it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC) (In other words, we don't need to do the original research of checking the quote. If BBC says "Der Speigel says", we can trust BBC to be reliably quoting Der Speiegel and we can trust Der Speigel to be reliable, unless there is e.g. another strong source saying they got it wrong or there was a subsequent retraction of the original. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC))

Use of WNXX as a reliable source in rail articles

I've been wondering about the use of [42]https://www.wnxx.com as a source of UK rail information for a while. It is being used across UK rail articles as a source for ownership, location or livery of vehicles.

The site is completely paywalled, with no transparency whatsoever as to the source of their information. I discussed this briefly with @TimMassey on their talk page, as they had been using the site as a source in a few places (for example here and here). Tim's reply to my message reads "Some info obviously comes from peoples first hand observations. Some is clearly 'inside' info the website host has obtained from industry sources". Personally, I wouldn't think that a site that either doesn't list its sources, or where the information is being obtained from original research, should be allowable on Wikipedia.

My apologies must go to TimMassey here - this is not in any way intended to be an attack on or me hounding you - you are simply the most recent person I noticed using this source that I could use for diffs and who potentially had some information about the origin of the information on the site. Danners430 (talk) 17:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that information is paywalled is not in itself problematic. How reliable that information is can be the only issue here. Black Kite (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Apologies, I should have been clear - that is the concern I have, the paywall has simply hampered my ability to work out whether the site is reliable or not - that's why I messaged TimMassey in the first instance. Danners430 (talk) 17:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Looks like a hobbyist page to me. They ask people to submit reports and pictures and the physical address seems to be the private home address of the person in charge. Doesn't seem like a reliable source. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Seconded. Might fall under self-published too. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 02:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
I like the use of the selective quote here, may i publish it in full. "I cannot vouch for the sources that are used, but what I do know is that the information posted to the site is accurate. Some info obviously comes from peoples first hand observations. Some is clearly 'inside' info the website host has obtained from industry sources; this is almost without exception accurate." I have been a paying subscriber to this site for some time, and as I noted, the inof on it is accurate. If a mistake is made, it is corrected, and usually pubilicy so. Form the tone of some of the articles, multiple sources are consulted and confirmation sought before something is published. I trust it absolutely, which is why i cite it. Livery of vehicles is usually confirmed by a photograph. I have used it in refernce to Class 57 ownersbhip recently, and actually some of the reference confomra what is already in the relevant article on Wikipedia. Some ofof the info obtained by the site is from inductry sources who prefer not be be named, but this does make the info less accurate. Losing the site as a reference would, in my view, lessen the quality of the relevent articles.--TimMassey (talk) 21:13, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Personally I would counter this by stating that accuracy doesn’t matter as much as reliability does - Wikipedia has specific policies on user generated content, as linked above. This is why I only partially quoted your original response - to me, accuracy comes second to reliability when discussing sources. Danners430 (talk) 21:24, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
WNXX is very well sourced from leading industry insiders and far more reliable / accurate than a lot of other media sources quoted as references on Wiki. It is far from a “hobbyist site” or “self-published”. The site only publishes info the owner knows is from trusted sources (often very senior ones hence the anonymity) and/or can be supported by other evidence, eg photos) Given Wiki’s info on UK railways isn’t always the most accurate and up-to-date, it’s ironic that folk are questioning one of the most reliable and up-to-date sources of info on the topic out there…! 2A02:C7C:9A68:AD00:6927:90A:45B8:2013 (talk) 21:37, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not meant to be “up to date” - it’s meant to be a cited encyclopaedia. If something can’t be backed up by a reliable source, then it doesn’t belong on Wikipedia.

Stating that the sources are “anonymous”, and only known to “the owner” rings massive alarm bells for me in terms of source reliability. Danners430 (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

A hobbyist or self-published source can be high quality and accurate. But unfortunately that doesn't mean it meets Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources. I don't doubt the page's quality -- in my experience people interested in this kind of thing are sticklers for accuracy. But it seems to fall at least partially under user generated content. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm finding myself somewhat torn. The extent of the paywalling is quite extreme, for a start – it's pretty much impossible to even get a feel for the nature of the content without stumping up for access; yet by longstanding consensus paywalling is not in and of itself a disqualification as a reliable source (and rightly so, IMO). Neither is the fact that some or all contributors are anonymous – after all, respected newspapers and magazines often conceal the identities of their reporters' sources – but that form of acceptable reporting is differentiated from unacceptable user-generated content by the presence of editorial oversight, and that's something we're obviously struggling to assess. Additionally, some contributors are likely submitting information that's been scraped directly from TOPS, TRUST, the National Vehicle Register, and other such primary databases, rather than their first-hand observationsl; and that would have the effect of elevating it a certain level above, say, a trainspotter's blog.
I'll do a bit more thinking on it. XAM2175 ^(T) 12:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Are there other sources that cite or refer to WNXX? Blueboar (talk) 22:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Not that I’m aware of - I didn’t know the site existed until finding it on Wikipedia. Danners430 (talk) 22:09, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Stacker

Is Stacker considered reliable? I suspect it is a different organization than Stack Exchange (Stack Overflow, MathOverflow, Ask Ubuntu) which are unreliable according to WP:RSP. I'd like to link this specific article from Minneapolis#Demographics, but this question is a little broader. I've searched the noticeboard archives, and the WP:RSP archives and came up empty. Maybe Stacker could be differentiated from Stack Exchange at WP:RSP if it is different. Thank you in advance. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

It seems to be a journalistic entity. They call themselves a "newswire" and "storytelling platform".

"We’re a team of entrepreneurial thinkers, media-minded nerds, and advocates of tech-forward journalism.

Our full-time newsroom includes over two dozen data journalists, editors, and writers who have worked with and been published in leading national publications." [43]

Today, Stacker is read by millions each month on Stacker.com as well as across our vast network of publishing partners. Our newswire of local and national features provides a sustainable source of engaging content for thousands of newsrooms across the country, including MSN, Newsweek, and Hearst Newspapers. [44]

"Every Stacker story is created using reliable information from vetted, credible sources and objective, data-driven reporting that has been fact checked by our newsroom. Studio clients and Stacker readers can rest assured that these principles serve as the common thread through all Stacker content.

Stacker’s editorial team maintains the final say on every story we publish. Even when research is underwritten by a third party, Stacker content will never advertise or promote products, services, or brands.

We promise full transparency. Every piece produced through Stacker Studio clearly communicates the underwriter and cites the original source data and research methodology in the article. We do not integrate promotional content into our pieces." [45]

Looks fine to me. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

This is one where WP: NEWSORG can be applied. Established independent organization with significant staffing that provides original reporting to multiple news publishers all regarded as clearly reliable per WP:RSP, experienced and respected senior editorial staff. Banks Irk (talk) 01:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Can this be added to WP:RSP because the name can so easily be confused with Stack Exchange? We have three other possible cases of confusion given there now, and as Banks says the staff of Stacker is respected. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:38, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
@SusanLesch I posted a request for comments to see if we can get consensus for that: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Adding Stacker to list of reliable sources Random person no 362478479 (talk) 23:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Random person no 362478479 . Every article can be republished under CC BY-NC 4.0. NC isn't quite convincing. I'll just use Slacker as a source. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I am slightly confused on the business model. Correct me if I am not seeing this correctly, but it is a news aggregator correct? Does it publish original content and if so who are the writers (employees of Stacker or freelance writers)? --CNMall41 (talk) 06:21, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

They have a full-time news room. They publish original data-driven content. Some of it is sponsored, but written by them. The sponsors only get to chose the topic and to check for factual errors. See their editorial standards page and their about page for more details. And here is an article with interview from the PressGazette. The editor-in-chief is Micah Cohen, the former Managing Editor of FiveThirtyEight. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 06:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Non-historical sources on 150 year old topic

This isn't going anywhere. RSN is for discussing whether a particular source is reliable; it isn't for deciding whether or not a historical incident happened. Nobody disputes that multiple sources which would usually be considered reliable report the Grant arrest story. Nor does anyone dispute that we would prefer to have articles or books by academic historians discussing the story.
Discussion about how Wikipedia should frame the story, and whether we should give greater emphasis to the lack of verification of West's 1908 account, can take place on Talk:Arrest of Ulysses S. Grant. Proposals that the article should be merged with the main Ulysses S. Grant article should follow WP:Merge. Anyone who thinks the article should be deleted can start an WP:AfD.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's a problem with a new article Arrest of Ulysses S. Grant. The story is dubious. There are no contemporary sources for it, and it is based solely on a single person's report decades later in 1908. As far as I can find, there are no historical notes on the topic. Instead, the closest you get is people like the DC police chief of 2012 or some blogger for Grant's estate saying it's real, but they always cite back to the single source. I've left plenty of messaging on the talk page already, but will repeat a bit of it here. I've put the request for deletion on, but was reverted in 30 minutes without the comments addressing the issues.

In the wake of people salivating over Trump's arrest, we have numerous "reliable sources" repeating it the story over and over, and then they are cited on WP. WP recognizes this as a major problem: WP:citogenesis. The heavy dependence on modern political articles about Trump's woes, while using this 150 year old story that claims an event of huge significance is a WP:REDFLAG. We want to call these sources WP:GREL, but they are outside their Areas of expertise on this. The WaPo source cannot be relied upon here. This shows in their own citing. The WaPo leans on Cathy Lanier, the DC police chief in 2012, which leans on the DCist, which cites nothing except a bathroom reader from the 80s. And all of them are not historians. The rest are blog level sources or sourced for ancillary topics. The closest I can find is a blog (currently source 8) citing "The Marion Enterprise (NY), June 20, 1885". No one knows what that is or where to find it. It looks like it might be a close to contemporary newspaper. There's also the supposition that Lanier was referencing the DC police logbook, but that is not clear. I even put in a few emails, no reply, and it doesn't seem like the logbook has been digitized nor is available for public view. Further still, I have yet to find any authoritative historical sources citing the story. Only mostly modern news and blogs.

Without reliable sources in their area of expertise, I recommend deleting the article. 76.178.169.118 (talk) 22:24, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

When has contemporary coverage ever been needed to establish notability? Philipnelson99 (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy tagging @Tamzin since they contested PROD. Philipnelson99 (talk) 22:33, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Where do I say notability is the problem? On the contrary, the story does have value, but as it's own article, and certainly not based on flimsy modern revisionism. I note on Ulysses S Grant talk that the story deserves a mention there. A mention, since it is a neat little bit of American folktale. But the idea that it actually happened appears very dubious right now. 76.178.169.118 (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Your WP:PRODtag necessarily implicates WP:N. Banks Irk (talk) 22:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Philipnelson99 (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

All of the sources are reliable. They, and the text of the article, clearly identify the provence of the story. The objection to the sourcing is meritless. Banks Irk (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Have you looked at it? They all lean on each other first WP:citogenesis, then on other loose places (blogs from 2012, a bathroom reader from 1982), which all fall on a single retelling 35 years later: The supposed arresting officer talking to a newspaper. There are no contemporary newspaper sources and no historical authorities address it. The current sourcing is a wp:redflag. They are not reliable for this article. 76.178.169.118 (talk) 22:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have read the article, all of the sources, and your numerous objections in multiple venues. Your arguments are meritless. Banks Irk (talk) 22:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

To summarize what I said on talk: No reliable sources I have seen, including ones that have taken critical looks at the story, dispute that Ulysses S. Grant was arrested by William H. West in 1872. There is some dispute as to how accurate West's narrative is—not even that anyone's identified any issues with it, just that much of it is unverifiable—and the article does not present those aspects of his narrative as fact. As far as I know, that's the only way you can write this sort of article: Say what the primary sources claim, and say what the secondary sources say about them. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Where have you found a reliable source "that have taken critical looks at the story"? The closest I found to a critical take was DCist saying "The story struck us as perhaps a bit apocryphal, but it all checks out." But it is not at all clear how "it all checks out", except maybe they just take Lanier at her word. BTW, they are one of the people I've emailed, no response. 76.178.169.118 (talk) 22:55, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
As the "Assessment and legacy" section explains: Rosenwald acknowledges possible issues with the Star's reliability but still concludes that the arrest happened. And that level of analysis distinguishes him from the litany of clickbait articles I've taken pains to not rely on here. Marszalek, as a respected historian in the field, can be assumed to have not accepted the story at face value. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:15, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Comment. I'm not seeing an issue here. The secondary sources both recent and historic, like The Washington Post, The Washington Star, Sports Illustrated and Texas Law Review, clearly have sufficient editorial over-site to pass our standards for reliable sources. Would it be preferable to have a historian's account of the event? Absolutely. But is that essential to demonstrate the topic is notable and passes WP:SIGCOV? No. The sourcing dating back prior to the Trump era would be sufficient on its own to pass our notability and referencing criteria for inclusion on wikipedia. The reporters were able to verify the arrest took place through public records made by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. The fact that the only eye witness account recorded by journalists was by the arresting officer doesn't to my mind create a problem as those publications had editorial review. The arguments made here seem to be entirely motivated by personal politics, and the attempt to WP:CENSOR information.4meter4 (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Firstly, I state in several places for the story to be somewhere on WP, so claims I'm trying to scrub it from WP is not a sensible argument. WP:AGF.

Secondly, when you say "The reporters were able to verify the arrest took place through public records made by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia" where are you getting that from? From DCist and Lanier only? But they don't cite any public record as the source for the story. 76.178.169.118 (talk) 23:15, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
76, can you be more clear here: What do you think the article should actually say? It already says that West's account is unverified. It would be WP:OR/WP:POV to say that the arrest itself is disputed, when no reliable sources dispute it. What's your preferred version? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:17, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:SECONDARY covers this, a public record would be considered a primary source so the coverage in WP:RS based on the record is fine. Philipnelson99 (talk) 23:18, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

What public record is this you refer to? 76.178.169.118 (talk) 23:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The book Legacy of Ashes

The book Legacy of Ashes has been critized by various people, including academics. Is it really an acceptable source for CIA-related articles? I don't think we should take criticism by the CIA itself in particularly serious, but it seems to have quite some issues. See the following quote:

>Loch K. Johnson and Rhodri Jeffreys-Jones wrote that "as for scholars, the consensus seems to be that the work lacks both objectivity and thorough research";

Could or should this book be deprecated as a reliable source for Wikipedia? PhotographyEdits (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the book, and modern intelligence history is well outside my usual wheelhouse, but, with those caveats in mind, I don't think this rises to the level of deprecation. According to our information page on deprecation, most deprecation to date has focused on sources that promote known falsehoods, particularly debunked conspiracy theories, and I'm not seeing that here. It's a book by a journalist, published by a mainstream non-academic press, so we should prefer academic works written by subject-matter experts, but none of the reviews cited in the article seem to be criticising factual inaccuracies rather than the author's biases and conclusions. So long as it's used with caution, with appropriate regard to WP:Weight and the author's biases, I don't see that it's unusable as a source; certainly not to the point where it needs formal deprecation. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 07:11, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Caeciliusinhorto That makes sense, thanks for explaining. I agree. PhotographyEdits (talk) 08:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

How reliable are Iranian government news websites for articles about history?

Articles like Operation Revenge, Operation Commander-in-Chief, or Operation Karbala-2 are supported only by Iranian news press websites. Considering the IR's track record (and Censorship in Iran), wouldn't it be preferable to boycott such sources from articles related to history (or politics)? Fad Ariff (talk) 12:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Those three articles have terrible sourcing. I don’t know enough to say if the sites should (all) be deprecated but certainly a np article on a conflict should never be sourced entirely from press releases from one party to the conflict. Might be helpful to list each website and discuss reliability. Some (eg Tasnim News) have been discussed here before, others not. BobFromBrockley (talk) 01:47, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

BobFromBrockley, yes, that's what I'm also finding.

This is a list of all the "sources" used in the article Operation Revenge:

nasrnews.ir
aparat.com
aja.ir
isna.ir
mashreghnews.ir
aparat.com
jonoubnews.ir
jabeh.com
tasnimnews.com
defapress.ir

Fad Ariff (talk) 12:08, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Nasr News about page: seems borderline SPS and regulated by Iranian government, local focus on NW region. At best weak source.

Aparat: video sharing service, equivalent to YouTube, i.e. SPS/not reliable.

aja.ir: official website of Islamic Republic of Iran Army, only reliable for routine facts about self, e.g. statements of spokespeople, where due

ISNA: Iranian Students' News Agency, possibly borderline reliable

Mashregh News: semi-independent pro-government source, accused of Holocaust denial. Particular article cited here is very sensationalist and partisan. Not reliable.

Jonoub News: unfamiliar to me, but from masthead is clearly government-loyalist

Jabeh.com: appears to be similar to Aparat

Tasnim News Agency: semi-official. Previous discussion at RSN has considered it generally unreliable, possibly could be used for sourcing government perspective where due.

An article based on these sources definitely needs better sourcing! @Fad Ariff:. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: this appears to be a constant problem throughout Wikipedia. Perhaps a RFC determining which Iranian government press websites are reliable for content related to Iranian politics and history would solve this? Fad Ariff (talk) 12:18, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Are all these sources reliable?

[46] and [47] -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Who is K M George? Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Reliable for what? See my post at your talkpage. Banks Irk (talk) 18:55, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
@Banks Irk: Because I want to make an article on historian Rawat Saraswat. -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 04:42, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
That covers only one of the three things we need to know. You also need to tell us (1) what is the specific text in these two sources that you want to cite as references in your proposed article and (2) what is/are the specific statement(s) that you wish to include in your proposed article using those references. Banks Irk (talk) 11:24, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the editor is probably talking about K. M. George (writer). Georgethedragonslayer (talk) 06:00, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Mathematics Genealogy Project

Some biographies use the Mathematics Genealogy Project (MGP) as a source (for example: William Littell Everitt, Eric Zaslow, Louis Boutet de Monvel, Alexander Bogomolny, Leonard Blumenthal). However, the MGP article itself notes that the content is "self-reported."^[1]

I can't find any recent discussion about the reliabilty of MGP as a source, which appears to violate WP:UGC.

References

^ Malmgren, R. Dean; Ottino, Julio M.; Nunes Amaral, Luís A. (2010). "The role of mentorship in protégé performance". Nature. 465 (7298). Springer Science and Business Media LLC: 622–626. doi:10.1038/nature09040. ISSN 0028-0836.

76.14.122.5 (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

"Where do you get your data?

We depend on information from our visitors for most of our data. In cases of partial information, we search Dissertation Abstracts International in an effort to find complete information. We have also entered a considerable amount of data found on lists of graduates maintained by individual departments. If you have data to provide, our submission form is the best way to submit it. For large quantities of data, you may contact us about other means of submitting." ([48]https://www.mathgenealogy.org/faq.php#sources) I tend to agree that while a lot of the information may be properly checked, it does not qualify as a reliable source. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

"Self-reported" is a bit vague: much of it is reported by institutions (which should know to whom they've awarded degrees, etc.). It has editorial oversight, but it is rather limited (at one point in the past I believe the situation was that one PhD student at ND State would keep an eye on it each semester in lieu of TAing a class) and certainly not up to the quality that one would want if one were trying to do real historical work (like [49] or whatnot). I would urge caution in using it. --JBL (talk) 18:17, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I think it's generally fine for reporting that a certain person got a degree from a certain institution in a certain year with a certain dissertation title, especially in cases where searching for that title finds other sources backing it up. It's also pretty good for listing doctoral advisors, but should be used with caution because it often misses some nuance (for instance, it may list multiple advisors but has no way of specifying what their different roles might have been). It is not WP:UGC because data submitted to them is vetted somehow (by a process that is obscure to me) rather than being added directly by that user. However, it is not reliable for claims like "so-and-so advised 17 doctoral students" because it often misses some of the students. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed it usually takes a few weeks after you report something for it to become public. I have never reported bad data, so I do not know what happens when they reject something. As the definition of "advisor" isn't very clear (multiple advisors, different historical advisor-advisee relations before 1900) much of the content should best be reported by saying "according to the MGP", as it is in some of the examples above. —Kusma (talk) 06:22, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

It's reliable enough for the purposes for which it is typically used: so-and-so graduated from such-and-such a university in the year 19XX, where their PhD thesis advisor was Bob Notable. I would not trust it for more nuanced points, like the roles played by multiple listed advisors. And, as David Eppstein points out, its information can be incomplete. XOR'easter (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Is ZDNet still reliable?

The last discussion about ZDNet was stale because it happened in 2018. However, since September 2020, the marketing company Red Ventures has acquired ZDNet. I feel like new issues have been caused by Red Ventures in the same way that they did to CNET when they acquired it in October 2020. 96.53.67.242 (talk) 19:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Definitely one to be very cautious of, for this reason. My subjective feeling is that ZDNet's become a much worse and shallower source, and it didn't start so great. Though some of their stuff can still be very good. Has ZDNet done anything noteworthily egregious, as CNet did with AI articles? - David Gerard (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure. However, the problem isn't CNET using AI to write articles; it's them not telling anyone and not fact-checking them thoroughly (if at all!) before they get published to the website. Maybe it was reliable pre-2020? 96.53.67.242 (talk) 21:10, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I raised this same question here. No evidence yet, but given CNET's deterioration from a reliable to an unreliable source under Red Venture's ownership, I think concerns about ZDNet are not unfounded. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 16:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

FilmFreeway

I find many informations on FilmFreeway about movies and my fav actors, like informations about the subjects which provides way more informations than "reliable sources". Is there a way someday that it could be seen a reliable as independent artists may not be on famous sources as the guardian? They may not be enough noticed by these sources while sources like FilmFreeway, British Urban Film Festival, Winter Film Awards have more informations. They're independent so of course it's not like teen choice Awards but it doesn't mean it's not reliable. It would help so much underrated artists if that could be seen reliable Veganpurplefox (talk) 00:54, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Not reliable. All of the content is user-generated/uploaded. The hosts review it before posting, but that's not enough to make it a reliable source. Banks Irk (talk) 02:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Everything written is confirmed by interviews and their social medias, why isnt it considered reliable? They're the ones who worked on the project Veganpurplefox (talk) 03:27, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It looks more like a PR site that publishes the press releases of different film festivals. Could be alright for basic details under WP:SPS but not for anything contentious or for notability. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:00, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
Not reliable, its UGC and unlike ActivelyDisinterested I don't really see the use under SPS... Unlike PR which is published by the individual or entity we can't use PR published by FilmFreeway for anything other than information about FilmFreeway. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Craft Coffee Spot

A discussion here raised a question about the use of a site called Craft Coffee Spot (craftcoffeespot.com) as a source. According to their website, it was started in 2011. Its founder is also listed as its "managing editor"; there are also two writers and a production/marketing person. What is the opinion of others here on its editorial policy? I'm not sure if it meets the standard of a RS. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The short discussion linked above seems to focus on the site having marketing affiliations, which is a concern. If a website is getting paid for promoting a product or service, it pretty much destroys the credibility of any reviews they are doing on that product or service. On the other hand, there may be other content on a site which is reliable - I can think of lots of examples of reliable sources which also do product reviews that are clearly the product of marketing affiliation. We can cite the reliable content, but not the reviews, from those source. What about this site? The problem with that is that its founder/editor/chief cook and bottle washer identifies himself only as "Marcus L". I got no idea who Marcus L is, or what qualifications he has. And nothing in the short bios of its staff generates any confidence. I view this as pretty much a WP:SPS by someone with not demonstrated expertise an no prior publication history in independent reliable sources. Banks Irk (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I would consider this an unreliable source. The website specifically states at the bottom, "This site contains affiliate links and I will be compensated if you make a purchase after clicking on my links. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases." Basically, the site is a marketing platform that features products for sale that the owner of the website gets kickbacks from. There's absolutely a financial motive here. The website isn't reviewing products that they don't like, and they are making money from the ones they do review. A reliable source would review products with a chance of a giving them a negative review, and would not have financial ties to the products that do give a positive review to. Further, there's nothing to indicate that the writers of the website have any relevant professional expertise and it is unclear what editorial oversight is in place. I concur with Banks Irk that this should treated as an WP:SPS by a non-expert.4meter4 (talk) 21:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

This is a side note but participation in Amazon's affiliates program or a similar program is not automatically problematic (it can be done ethically). What you described would be, but thats only one of nearly infinite possibilities. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:46, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Unreliable in my opinion. Just because the founder labeled himself "managing editor" doesn't mean their is "editorial oversight." It simply means that person controls what is published. It's a commercial blog that runs reviews linked to Amazon and gets money from referrals to Amazon. --CNMall41 (talk) 16:20, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Unreliable, it seems to be a group blog and as far as I can tell nobody directly involved is a subject matter expert and their coverage isn't used by others. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

[1] Sandhu, Jaskaran. "Jaskaran's Tweet". Twitter. Retrieved 2023-03-26.

[2] Flu database rocked by legal row. Nature. 2009.

[3] Global Institute on Sharing All Influenza Data v. Swiss Institute of Bioinformatics, SCAI Case No. 300142-2009. JusMundi.

[4] Memorandum Opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. JusMundi.

[5] Memorandum Opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. CaseText.

[6] Memorandum Opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. VLEX.

[7] District court confirms arbitration award and grants attorney’s fees, costs, and post-judgment interest where the respondent failed to appear or respond to the petition. Baker McKenzie, on Lexology.

[mirror-8] "Desperate students turn to sex and OnlyFans after lockdown kills pub and shop jobs". The Daily Mirror. 10 April 2021. Retrieved 25 January 2023.

[9] "Deputy Commander of the Taliban's Badri Forces Unit Killed in Panjshir". Hasht e Subh. 15 May 2022. Retrieved 2023-04-04. Local sources in Kandahar province have confirmed that the Deputy Commander of Taliban's Badri Forces Unit named Mullah Abdul Ghafar has been killed in clashes in Panjshir province. He was killed by the Resistance forces on Friday, May 13.

[10] Bakhtar News Agency [@BakhtarNA] (October 26, 2022). "براساس فرمان عالی‌قدر امیرالمؤمنین حفظه الله، ملا عبدالغفار محمدی، معاون پیشین قول اردوی 205 البدر به‌حیث قوماندان قوای هوایی وزارت دفاع ملی گماشته شد" [According to the decree of the Supreme Commander of the Faithful, may God preserve him, Mawlawi Abdul Ghafar Mohammadi, the former deputy commander of the 205th Al-Badr Army Corps, was appointed as the commander of the air force of the Ministry of National Defense.] (Tweet) (in Dari) – via Twitter.

[11] "معاون قول اردو ۲۰۵ البدر امروز رسما معرفی شد" [The deputy of the 205th Al-Badr Army Corps was officially introduced today]. Ministry of Defense (Afghanistan) (in Dari). Retrieved 2023-04-04.

[12] Radio Television Afghanistan [@rtaenglish] (November 30, 2022). "Mawlawi Abdul Ghafar Mohammadi, the general commander of the country's air force, has traveled to Ghor at the head of a delegation" (Tweet). Retrieved 2023-04-04 – via Twitter.

[13] Khalid, Sakhi (5 January 2023). "Pakistan Launches Air Strikes on TTP Strongholds in Eastern Afghanistan's Nangarhar". Hasht e Subh. Retrieved 2023-04-04.

[14] Siddiqui, Naveed (2023-01-05). "FO rubbishes reports of Pakistan air strikes in Afghanistan". Dawn. Retrieved 2023-04-04.

[15] "US Forces Likely to Return Back to Afghanistan: McKenzie". Hasht e Subh. 29 August 2022. Retrieved 2023-04-04.

[16] Malmgren, R. Dean; Ottino, Julio M.; Nunes Amaral, Luís A. (2010). "The role of mentorship in protégé performance". Nature. 465 (7298). Springer Science and Business Media LLC: 622–626. doi:10.1038/nature09040. ISSN 0028-0836.

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