Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 December 17

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17 December 2011[edit]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Gearheaddeals (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Follows all wikipedia guidelines and the modertor is using his subjective opinion to not post the page. The article is proven notable by a reliable news source "autoblog.com" although "blog" is used in their domain name, autoblog is an independent news source owned bu huffington post. It receives 2 million unique views per month and is compiled by many editors and writers and from many sources. The closer noted that the source in the autoblog article is gearheaddeals.com website. this is not the rtue source as there is none of that content posted anywhere on gearheaddeals.com. The article was solely created by one of autoblog's writers. They were just linking to the gearheaddeals site for reference. There are other independent news sources I listed as well. The draft can be seen in my drafts area. I am new to writing WP articles so I am not sure how to link you there. Thank you.Bmwm3guy (talk) 20:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. I can't see the speedy'd version, but looking at the version on your user sub-page, here's my summary: 6-month old web start-up wants to be the Groupon for the gearhead niche, referenced by a couple of sources regurgitating their press releases. So, how is this notable? I get the impression from the talk page here that there may be something more to the site, but I don't see that in the article, and it seems that the closer didn't, either. If the article can't be much improved, then it doesn't really matter whether the DRV is successful, as it will fail AfD, deservedly. And if it can be significantly improved and shows that it is the Groupon of the gearhead set, or notably well on its way there, then that's the version of the article I think we all should be looking at. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 23:44, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Circball (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Closer disregarded GNG policies on notability for new article creation (WP:NNC), instead applied the different policy on notability for content(NPOV) on this new article. Closer acknowledge that a subject could be notable on a single source for article creation purposes. But disregarded that policy anyway perhaps due to closer's own bias of game itself or its article creator. Closer also disregarded consensus analysis below that didn't include substantial policy explanation. Instead, closer only counted votes! The analysis of the votes during this deletion discussion was sent to his attention, but disregarded that too. The issue on the article is subject notability. Per WP:GNG guidelines a notable subject must have at least one notable, reliable and verifiable source for it to be CREATED in WP. WP:NNC Notability guidelines for content WP:WHYN does not apply for article creation as that criteria applies only to CONTENT NPOV on an already existing articles.

Because the subject has at least one notable source, WP:NNC requires it to be created and included in WP. Please restore deleted article and replace that old article with a newly modified article that is now in User:GalingPinas/Circball. Article also has been modified from its original content and the Closer acknowledge that current modified version is much "improved" and much "clearer". Here is the analysis of the votes during the deletion discussion:

  1. 1 Delete by Hobbes Goodyear - No substantial arguments here as this user only stated that sources couldn't be found. It was indeed found. This vote shouldn't be counted as part of consensus.
  1. 2 Delete by Jimfbleak - No substantial arguments either. Statements of personal opinions should not be counted as part of consensus. Comment not related to notability issue of subject.
  1. 3 Delete by JamesBWatson - User charged that article is being promoted. This is outside the discussions of notability discussions. User thinks it's not "prominent" yet. Again, notability doesn't mean it's popular or famous. This vote should not be counted as part of consensus.
  1. 4 Delete by η-θ - A comment of ":p duh.". Does that count?? No substantial explanation of why is non-notable.
  1. 5 Delete by Tarc - a charge of advertising again or that it was "made up" sport that the user didn't like. This shouldn't be counted as consensus as no substantial explanation of why it is non-notable. Tarc acknowledged however that the source for GMA is notable.
  1. 6 Keep by GalingPinas. Notability was argued here by providing three reliable sources and by providing a detail analysis of these sources as to the 5 requirements of WP:GNG general guidelines.

Even though the number of Deletes outweight the number of Keeps, policy on consensus requires substantive explanation which was lacking on the delete votes and was disregarded by Closer.

Again, the issue here is the subject's notability -- has the subject been notable outside of WP? Does the source follow the guidelines of WP:GNG specifically WP:NNC? IF A NOTABLE SOURCE EXIST, SUBJECT IS NOTABLE, EVEN AS A MERE STUB OR A SUB-ARTICLE OF A MAIN ARTICLE GalingPinas (talk) 20:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Because the subject has at least one notable source, WP:NNC requires it to be created and included in WP" - nope, WP:NNC does not *require* anything to be created or included. I'm not sure I can make head nor tail of the rest of your argument. NNC is about the individual items of content within an article not needing to meet the notability standard, it is the overall topic of the article which needs to. WP:GNG states the presumption that a topic is suitable for a standalone article, if it has been covered by multiple independant reliable sources. The precise detail of what multiple means is open to interpretation, it means at least two, how many is a matter for consensus to determine in each case, generally the higher quality the sources the less will be required. One source however, no matter how many capitals you use, does not make a topic suitable for a standalone article. --82.19.4.7 (talk) 20:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria applied to article content are not the same as those applied to article creation. The notability guidelines do not apply to article ... content .... Content coverage within a given article or list is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies.
Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article. If the subject has not been covered outside of Wikipedia, no amount of improvements to the Wikipedia content will suddenly make the subject notable. Conversely, if the source material exists,even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability. (emphasis added) GalingPinas (talk) 20:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well this is where I'm having severe difficulty understanding your argument, you seem to be quoting something which is the exact opposite of what you seem to be claiming. The title of that section, the part you wish to underline on article creation, and indeed the rest of the quote is indicating that the individual content of articles doesn't need to meet the notability standard, it's inclusion is based on things like WP:V and WP:NPOV. The topic itself however does still need to meet the notability standard, and that's what articles are created about. It needs to meet the WP:GNG as a topic to be presumed suitable for a standalone article. This still leaves is without sufficient sourcing to meet that standard. --82.19.4.7 (talk) 20:50, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes of course, once the article is included in WP, it requires WP:V, WPNPOV, WP:GNG, WPs,etc, etc.. and all those good stuff. Content guidelines however are a separate issue that deserves a different forum. This forum only talks about article creation. The article hasn't been created yet. The question for the new article per GNG is does it have a source outside of WP, and is the source reliable, verifiable, etc etc. When you ask those questions to the sources provided in this articles, it passes at least the minimum requirement of article creation--that is it has a notable source outside of WP. OK. so we have notable source, where can we put it in WP, is it appropriate as a stand-alone, is it appropriate as sub-article of a main article? is appropriate as a stub? But the underlying point is that the subject itself is notable having passed WP:NNC. We're not saying to disregard other notability guidelines, all we're saying here is should this article be created here in WP if it has a notable source? GalingPinas (talk) 21:07, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nope, you seem to want to rope WP:GNG in with the content standards it isn't. The wording "The criteria applied to article content are not the same as those applied to article creation" isn't saying that GNG applies to article content but not creation, it's the opposite way around. Topics (as represented by Articles) need to meet WP:GNG --82.19.4.7 (talk)
  • No. WP:GNG is still the underlying guidelines for notability whether it's content or article creation. But maybe i'm not explaining it clearly. We don't have an article called Circball yet in WP. Ok. So say someone wants to create an article called Circball in WP. The first question is--Is there a source outside WP (meaning has it been covered outside of WP?(WP:NNC). If the answer is no, then no article is allowed (coz of no original research), but if the answer is yes, create the article. Now, once the article is created, the next guidelines to be applied would be Content guidelines such the ones you mentioned above. But we're not there yet on the Content discussion (2nd base). We're still in 1st base (ie, article creation) which is the subject of this DelRev. GalingPinas (talk) 22:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse argument presented here seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of WP:NNC --82.19.4.7 (talk) 21:22, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reverse. There is no misunderstanding of WP:NNC. It is very clear. Notability criteria for content is not the same as notability criteria for article creation. WP:NNC is very specific, "if the source material exists (outside of WP), then there is subject notability suitable for article creation in WP. That article could be a stand alone, subject to guidelines, it could be a sub-article, again subject to guidelines on sub-articles, or a stub which also has guidelines itself.
Here's another GNG guideline that supports article creation. "Notability requires only that appropriate sources have been published about the subject. It does not require that any editor has already named these sources, followed the neutral, encyclopedic style, or otherwise written a good article." WP:NRVE. Therefore reverse the deletion based on at least these two guidelines because the new article in question has reliable sources. GalingPinas (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per 82.19.4.7--John (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • John, I'd like to encourage you to be more detail on your vote and not just WP:PERNOM. Thanks.GalingPinas (talk) 22:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and salt per 82.19.4.7. The wikilawyering needs to stop. I see only two RSes that you have found. That is nowhere close to enough to recreate the article. DRV is the place to discuss notability for article creation; WP:NNC isn't relevant here. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:48, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guerillero-That's the point, these two sources falls within WP:NNC, because it says if a source can be found that's notable, create the article, in essense.GalingPinas (talk) 22:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am going to try to be as nice as I can here. The NNC applies to articles that have already passed the GNG and have been created. It tells the community that the substance of an article does not need to pass the GNG independently of the topic. Your pet topic does not pass the threshold of notability yet, please drop the stick and move on. Misusing policy against common sense, like you are above, is disruptive. --Guerillero | My Talk 22:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guerillero my "pet topic" is not the issue here. It's the issue of whether this so called pet topic has a source. It does. Therefore it passes WP:NNC requirement of source notability.
Simply stating that the subject of an article is not notable does not provide reasoning as to why the subject may not be notable. This behavior straddles both "Just unencyclopedic" and "Just pointing at a policy or guideline".WP:JNN — Preceding unsigned comment added by GalingPinas (talk • contribs) 00:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You obviously don't understand WP:NNC. I would continue this discussion, but I have come to the conclusion that it will only end with me cursing at you. Your ability to not see the point and to misconstrue policy has killed all of the good faith I have for you. You are disrupting the project now. --Guerillero | My Talk 00:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Everyone here has the right to provide opinion about this very topic without any ad hominem attack tone on their comments which will not be considered as consensus if one continues.GalingPinas (talk) 00:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • I haven't read the whole AfD, so I'm not going to stick something in bold next to this comment, but WP:NNC is completely irrelevant here. WP:NNC says that notability only affects the question of whether Wikipedia can have an article on some topic, not what that article should or should not say. The issue for debate in the AfD is whether the subject passes the general notability guideline, nothing else. Hut 8.5 21:48, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes Hut. I would suggest to everyone to first read the Afd. Because the issue in Afd is very specific. Here's the original issue that was raised:
"Non-notable, "new" sport, with no coverage found at reliable, independent sources. Contested PROD PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 02:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)"
As you read down the discussions, it turns out that sources were actually found and analyzed which meet WP:NNC for article creation. So the real issue is are there sources notable for article creation per WP:NNC. GalingPinas (talk) 22:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, you've completely missed the point. If sources were found then your argument is that the article meets the GNG, not WP:NNC. NNC is not an inclusion criterion. Hut 8.5 23:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The article creator is mounting quite a forum-shopping crusade to salvage this thing, but the consensus of the Wikipedia community in the AfD was clear that the reliable sourcing was insufficient. Note that the AfD was closed by DGG, one of the most...passionate inclusion-minded editors (he can attest that that's the nicest way I have ever described him) around here. his deleted article is also the subject of a current MfD, as the creator has insisted on keeping a copy on his user page. Tarc (talk) 22:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry, but your train jumped the tracks quite a long time ago regarding this subject. I quite clearly addressed the matter, we are here at DRV to review the closing admin's actions, and I noted that the closer's take of the consensus at the AfD was proper. DRV isn't for simple "I disagree with the decision" complaining, it is to review if the admin did something wrong. Tarc (talk) 23:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're quite right, the closing admin did something wrong by misapplying improper WP guidelines. Counted votes and used that as a basis for closing, disregarded the proper WP:NNC guideline on article creation, instead replaced his own notability bias (just like you did) on the discussions, as shown on DGG's own usertalk pages about Circball. [#195].GalingPinas (talk) 23:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse my own deletion. After I had deleted the article, I made a serious effort to work with the contributor to try to see if a satisfactory articles was there. I concluded in the end that it was not yet possible, because there was insufficient material to show even the most basic notability --the sport is recorded as having been played in a single season, with a single tournament involving teams from 10 schools, and local TV coverage. (I think it has a insufficiently documented but likely earlier history, as a sport played for several decades at more more of these schools.). I advised the contributor to wait untill there was a second season, with some more coverage. But even when that is the case, I think the contributor, who has an obvious COI from his first username, would be well advised to stay away from the articles. He insisted on retaining multiple photographs and videos, explaining the minutia of the rules, and including an extensive undocumented explanation of the philosophical significance; he reacted to my editing attempts on the userpage draft to make a copy of his preferred version on his user page.(which is now at MfD). This is not the behavior of someone trying in good faith to add information--a reasonable fan would have simply waiting a year and done a modest article appropriate to the extent of the sport. (If it is, it shows the influence of excessive involvement to the extent of greater irrationality than what is customary even at Wikipedia.) My conclusion at this point is that the article was intended to be promotional, that the contributor is dedicated to accomplishing this promotion here despite all obstacles, At this point, I think all versions of the article would be subject to speedy deletion under criterion G11 for such articles. DGG ( talk ) 22:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should be noted that actions made after the deletions of the article are irrelevant to this discussion. This discussion is about whether DGG applied the correct GNG guidelines. As note above in the summary reasons: GNG guidelines specifically WP:NNC was not applied appropriately in this case, in due respect to his long experience in editing. Even DGG acknowledge that article'ssource do exist per WP:NNC that merits article creation. Yet despite that only vote were counted on the delete discussion for number purposes without regard to the substantive consensus issues or to the WP guideliness, specifically WP:NNC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GalingPinas (talk • contribs)


  • Endorse deletion. The nominator of this DRV, under his/her previous username of Circball, is the creator of the article and provided the only "keep" vote in the AfD. I voted "delete" for lack of substantial sourcing in the article and from my own web searches, and said as much. I also responded twice more as additional sourcing was presented, which I found lacking. Nominator disagrees with my assessment—fair enough. But to say, after I spent time and effort to consider the matter and nominator's further efforts, that my "vote shouldn't be counted as part of consensus"? This I do not accept. The issue here is not about what policies apply, it's about whose assessment of the quality of the sourcing should apply—the nominator's, or everyone else's. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 22:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hobbes, I appreciate your vote at the Afd, but you stated that no source can be found, when it fact I presented you with the sources. Then you further commented that you're not satisfied with these sources. But not's the point. WP:NNC only states that a notable source must exists for article creation. period. whether you like the source or not is another issue that is beyond the scope of the deletion discussion. Thus you vote is not consensus.GalingPinas (talk) 22:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as a proper reading of consensus. Could not reasonably have been closed any other way. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 23:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • COMMENT. I want to remind the closer of this DRV, (despite the unrelenting Endorse votes) on the following facts as per WP:NNC guidelines. Was there a source that merits article creation in WP for Circball? And the answer is YES. Is the source notable? The answer is yes (see below on the analysis of the sources per WP:GNG):

"Source#1=GMANews "Saksi":

  1. 1. "Significant Coverage" = Saksi addressed the Circball game in detail. It talked about the rules of the game of Circball. It talked about the unique Ring and the circular court. It also talked about the moral principles that the game teaches. "Saksi" also mentioned who the founders are of the Circball. Where it originated and what the organizations that are currently using the game. All of these are covered in this article.
  2. 2. "Reliable" - Saksi new coverage is reliable because it came from a major new media company recognized and noted even by Wikipedia itself, GMA.
  3. 3. "Sources"- Saksi news coverage is a secondary source media publication that was gathered by a professional Journalist by the name of Mark Zambrano and published by his employer-company, GMA Network Inc.
  4. 4. "Independence" = Saksi is independent of Circball and its parent company nor its journalists and reporters have no conflict of interest with either the subject or the article.
  5. 5. "Presumption" = Saksi's detail coverage of Circball on April 2011 established the presumption for inclusion in WP.

Source#2=Q-TV & GMA's Children Show "Tropang Potchi":

  1. 1. "Significant Coverage" = Tropang Potchi addressed the Circball game in detail. It talked about what the game is all about. It talked about the unique Ring and the circular court and how the game is played, particulary Morality Play. It also talked about how children can learn moral principles that the game teaches. The Children hosts shown on the video interviewed one of the founders of Circball Philippines Club Inc--the organizing entity utilizing Circball games. All of these are covered in the article as well.
  2. 2. "Reliable" - Tropang Potchi coverage is reliable because it came from two major new media companies recognized and noted even by Wikipedia itself, Q-TV and GMA.
  3. 3. "Sources"- Tropang Potchi's coverage is a secondary source media publication that was gathered by a professional Director by the name of Louie Ignacio and his staff.
  4. 4. "Independence" = Tropang Potchi is independent of Circball. Its parent companies nor its directors and staffs have no conflict of interest with either the subject or the article. The show was also confirmed by a newspaper article published on September 10, 2011 by Abante-Tonite. The article mentioned that the show will highlight some current innovations in sports in the Philippines that include in-line hockey, flag football and Circball.
  5. 5. "Presumption" = Tropang Potchi's detail coverage of Circball on August 2011 (shown on TV September 2011) established the presumption for inclusion in WP.

Source#3=UNTV Sports37's Letter of Intent:

  1. 1. "Significant Coverage" = Sports37 (see its own website) covers sports in the Philippines in detail by interviewing sports athletes. It talks about the rules of the sports, where it originated and how the sports are played and what organizations are involved using the game. All of these patterns of coverage of a sport are discussed in the article.
  2. 2. "Reliable" - Sports37 intended coverage is reliable because it comes from a major media company recognized and noted even by Wikipedia itself, UNTV.
  3. 3. "Sources"- Sport37's coverage is a secondary source media publication gathered by a professional Director by the name of Rene Leanda and writer/researcher Bernard Mones, per list of staff provided in the letter of intent.
  4. 4. "Independence" = Sports37's parent company UNTV is independent of Circball. Its parent company nor its directors and writers have no conflict of interest with either the subject or the article.
  5. 5. "Presumption" = Sports37 sports coverage of Circball through its letter of intent establishes the presumption for inclusion in WP.

These sources and others establish the notability of Circball per WP:GNG and must be included in WP either as a standalone article or merge with similar articles that discusses basketball related topics, in particular, variations of basketball.GalingPinas (talk) 08:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)"

Please apply the WP:NNC as the proper guideline to article creation for Circball. Once Circball is created, any Editor can flag for any issues they want to flag, Be it V, NPOV, etc. But for purposes of this discussions, the analysed sources above merits article creation per WP:NNC.GalingPinas (talk) 23:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
StarWind Software (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Disputing the decision to keep and appeal for an Overturn to delete and salt. I believe the closing admin judged consensus and policy inappropriately in this debate. The rationael given for keeping was "spam issues are important but not by themselves a reason for deletion". However, asside from having "6" previous spam/COI deletions (a clear need to "Salt"), Consensus for "deletion" was quite clear in this case, as was the consensus in the articles first AFD, based on the subjects lack of Notability.

While many links exist, a closer look at each these links, reveals they fail as reliable sources (as was consensus agreed) seem to be nothing more than a collection of press releases, blogs, partner sites, self published material and mere trivial installation coverage and incidental mentions. One example; ZDNet Blogger (Dan Kusnetzky) explains explicitly in his BLOG that a "representative of StarWind Software reached out to me... "[1] as a "marketing message "[2], Pure marketing, not independent of the subject nor it is it a review. Sites like it-bezpeka.org.ua, techrepublic.com, links are simply inclusions in various blogged lists of related products and is considered "trivial coverage per WP:CORPDEPTH. As are anandtech.com (only mention is in the blogs "comments"), windowsservercatalog.com and citrix.com (written by Starwind Software). The books cited were converted to ISBN numbers to hide the fact they were origionaly Amazon.com links to mere incidental installation notes failing to support inclusion. venturedeal.com is simply a routine announcement and the Intel link (on page 8) is literaly a footnote. Hu12 (talk) 15:55, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Hu12, please point at 1) press release 2) blogs 3) partner sites 4) self-published material in the current list of current URLs. Thank you!

Microsoft and Intel used StarWind software to build a test system push 1 million IOPS thru it. So it was StarWind running inside to make it happen. In such a case small footnote "yes, we've used THAT product" costs quite a lot. Do you understand what I mean? I'll be adding StarWind + Mellanox test so please provide feedback here as it's another performance benchmark.

Please bother to read ALL pages of anandtech.com - it's three iSCSI products put face-to-face it was not "comments" which brought attention. If you provide samples please bother to at least view ALL the pages and not stop at the first one. Thank you!

Yes, I've used originally amazon links as I did not know I need to put ISBNs. Is this a crime or what? Yworo fixed everything and I'll be adding another books with citations quite soon (working on it hard).

Not sure about venturedeal.com but I can remove it just to make you happy.

NINTENDUDE64 did brilliant work to describe ZDnet issue once again. I appreciate his work!

APS (Full Auto) (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sustain keep. At least the ZDNet piece is not a blog. It's a major column in a major magazine, and the article is a 3rd party review, which merely includes the portion marked as being from the company. But that's on the second screen of my monitor, so perhaps the nom. didn't see it. The proof it's 3rd party is that it's a strongly negative review. Read it for yourself. DGG ( talk ) 16:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dan kusnetzky (Kusnetzky Group LLC)[3][4] is a blogger[5][6], independent of znet, and not a staff writer or apart of their editorial oversight [7]. Funny how in the "Snapshot analysis" section he retracts the critisisms after the company, again, reaches out to him...he's a marketer (kusnetzky.net). Would think blogs by any marketing company/person, paid or unpaid would be discounted due to lack of reliability and their inherantly biased nature (wether they are for or against a competing product[8]). --Hu12 (talk) 18:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - That's not an uncommon occurrence at all for a company to reach out to a writer who criticizes their product and for the writer to retract some or all of their statements. Read any editorial section of any trade or even consumer magazine. Writers miss things all the time; it'd be unreliable and biased of them to not review their statements when presented with new information or when their mistakes are highlighted. --NINTENDUDE64 21:08, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. I was pleasantly surprised that this AfD was closed as keep and not surprised that the result is being contested. There were indeed a lot of delete !votes and even though a closing admin is supposed to consider the arguments, not just the number of !votes on each side, my experience is that not all admins take time to read the arguments to consider carefully which ones are policy-based. But it was the right decision. Content issues, spam and COI, past AfD outcomes, the bad behavior of other editors and the number of times an article has been previously deleted are all completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters at AfD is whether notability can be established, which turns entirely on whether sources exist, even if they haven't yet been cited in the article. The simple fact is that the sources do exist. When I searched the Google books search results, it was obvious anyone could find as many sources as they wanted. I cited 3 in my !vote, each of them several pages in length in published books. To me they looked reliable, independent and secondary, easily clearing the bar for notability. Hu12 insisted the sources were primary or trivial (he couldn't seem to make up his mind) but beyond simply making that claim, was unable to provide any reason why he believed the sources I'd found were defective. I suspect this was a case of becoming too emotionally invested in the outcome and this DRV is more of the same. Msnicki (talk) 16:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Since when are industry blogs not considered reliable sources? These aren't some random postings on some anonymous person's WordPress account, they're from reliable industry publications. StarWind Software serves a niche market, but they're clearly notable in that market and therefore the content of the article is encyclopedic. I was happy to see that the closing admin considered the quality of the arguments rather than the quantity of !votes. --NINTENDUDE64 21:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This... novel... afd close rationale would be a lot more palatable if those endorsing it would at least attempt to make this an acceptable article. I don't see anything in the current revision that belongs in a Wikipedia article except the lede sentence, the statement of location the History section, and the infobox; but every paywalled review, every cover-CD shovelware inclusion, every "Works with Windows Server 2008 R2" certification is furiously defended by the same horde of spas that derailed the afd and will no doubt be here in due course. (Assuming there's in fact more than one of him, which is by no means clear.) If we must have an article here instead of a five-word passing mention in Storage area network or a similar article as would normally be the case, then let's have an article, even a two-sentence stub, not this unapologetic puffpiece. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've did enormous work (thanks to Yworo for couraging and building book templates) to include virtually everything I've been able to Google about this company. Could take next step and Google about Rocket Division Software (as they seems to exist under this name since 2003 and before 2008 or 2009 - quite a time for software company BTW as they come and go - 8 years). You're welcomed to add what you think I've missed and remove what you think is a junk. I do agree with Msnicki however product itself still seems to be more remarkable then the company. But most of the companies are one-product only ;) Thanks to everybody, hope to turn back to gun articles finally :) APS (Full Auto) (talk) 02:10, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn to delete and salt. A mediocre review from a site like ZDnet is enough to prove that the business and product exist. It does not establish that the business or its product represents the sort of achievement that ought to be remembered in an encyclopedia, and in fact suggests the opposite. Trade and niche coverage needs to establish more than that a business or product exists; they need to show that the business or product has some kind of significance outside of IT departments. Simply collecting sites that mention this software does not establish any such significance. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 15:47, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. But did you actually bother yourself to read product section of the article? Did you read about first AoE initiator? First FCoE initiator? World currently fastest software iSCSI target (record being broken TWICE)? Storage hypervisor thing (there's only one company I've mentioned before DataCore doing storage hypervisor Windows thing). Everything with the links. Breaking records is what exactly you think making something "encyclopedic" (BTW, I don't share your point of view here). APS (Full Auto) (talk) 17:10, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I just stubbified the article to something that is reasonably neutral. Especially the product section was horrendous. Yoenit (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment But you've basically deleted 70% or 80% of my work without adding anything. If you'd follow the whole discussion you'd see editors insisted on 1) notability and 2) non-primary sources. As you've just deleted achievements (with product section) and books sections you've reverted whole content to the state we had before AfD story started... I'll try to re-write products section using template you did but I'm afraid I'll have to revert at least some of your applied changes. Thank you! APS (Full Auto) (talk) 08:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are allowed to revert another editor's changes if you disagree. Take care never to cross the three revert rule, however, or you'll quickly get blocked for edit warring. But when there's clear disagreement on content, it's best to take the discussion to the article talk page, first, and seek WP:CONSENSUS. Msnicki (talk) 17:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment He's basically right (and other guy from Talk page too...) so I'm checking other companies pages to have everything re-worked in the proper way. DataCore and FalconStor pages did not help much BTW :) So taking somebody from outside the industry... APS (Full Auto) (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whether the review is mediocre or positive is irrelevant. We do not judge the quality of software, we judge the quality of coverage. a truly awful product like WindowsMe that got multiple extensive deserved negative reviews in responsible sources is just as notable for our purposes as if the reviews had been positive. Notable does not necessarily mean notable for high quality. We are not qualified to determine "level of achievement" in this or any other category, except where there is some commonly accepted criterion such as a record charting on a major chart, or an athlete competing at the international level. (To give the most widely accepted special criteria of this nature.). In most fields, we cannot do this. Even when we have experts here to judge, we're not Consumer Reports. The whole point of WP:GNG is that in many fields, we can only go by the existence of substantial sources. (Some people want to use that in all fields even when there's a rational criterion; I do not, but this is a field where there is no such straightforward accepted criterion and we can do nothing else. .
on the other hand, Smerdis is completely right about mentions, especially in sources that do not discriminate. Such are not suitable sources for showing notability in an encyclopedia , just existence for listing in a directory , which we most emphatically are not. The ZD review is somewhere in the middle: it's an review extensive enough to consider the quality and nature of the product, not determine its existence, but it's somewhat less than a true full review. DGG ( talk ) 03:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The problem is we're talking about software here. If we'd follow your idea we'd have to remove most of software companies as they don't show notability from your point of view. Check for example FalconStor. APS (Full Auto) (talk) 08:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. first Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. Secondly FalconStor is a publicly traded company on the NASDAQ and has significant coverage by secondary sources.--Hu12 (talk) 14:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Critical It's politically incorrest to make any kind of assumptions or even try finding any relationship between mental level of any human being and his skin color, financial status, nationality, religion etc. In the same way you cannot say "company A is public so it's noticable and company B is not public so it's not noticable". BTW, being public does not mean 1) company A has more money then company B (and that's what you've tried to say) 2) company A is somehow remarkable and 3) company A should be part of encyclopedia. WP:NOT. Back to your coverage... Se we can judge on the page content entirely. If people would be able to read each mind we would not need any quotations, citations or whole Wiki project. So significant coverage is set of URLs on company page and not a bunch of dead neurons burried somewhere in somebody's head. APS (Full Auto) (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant weak endorse. I read the second AFD and I have to endorse the closer's decision because there were arguments by editors independent of the subject that at least some of the sources presented were supersources. However, I completely sympathize with the delete/salt !voters here and I believe that this article was created to promote this company and the tone of it shows. In my view, one of the first indications that a subject may be notable is if a neutral editor with no connection to a subject takes note of the subject and elects to write an article about it and one cannot take note of ones self. If those associated with this company had waited for this to happen, the result would have been a better article that we wouldn't have to keep despamming. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:50, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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