Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Windy Corner

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2014 November 27.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. There were a range of opinions expressed including delete, keep, and merge. In my view neither of those positions had sufficient support after three weeks of listing for a convincing consensus to be claimed, hence the no consensus close. The nominator suggested a merge, the second Delete !vote suggested covering these locations in a list, and the third was also amenable to a merge, leaving only the last 2 delete !votes as favouring out and out deletion. Michig (talk) 16:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Windy Corner[edit]

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No evidence of notability; content should be merged into the history of the TT races; and/or a description of the whole course Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - See my comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ginger Hall.Brianyoumans (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination to keep the article as it has encyclopaedic value. The Snaefell Mountain Course is unusual in its length at 37.73 miles. Articles describing certain parts of the course have value. The Windy Corner is a well known part of the A18 Sneafell Mountain Road is an important part of the circuit. There has been discussions by other contributors on Isle of Man TT notce boards about how the history of the Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix should be developed. Merging into a general description of the course or the history of the Isle of Man TT would be over-long and unhelpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agljones (talk • contribs) 11:13, 8 November 2014‎

Keep Historically a sigificant viewing point which is shown on outline course maps but needs expansion. Regrettably, I moved-on through ebay some years back all of my post-1979 sources including some copious course guides and I'm not confident of turning anything 1960s up in the house, but some should be available - suggest refimprove tag rather than AfD.
The Isle of Man government in conjunction with TV coverage have invested heavily to provide programming on free-to-air channels and the TV commentators regularly mention any TT course vantage point when adding voice-overs, often to footage from on-bike cameras and heli-cam, particularly on these mountain sections where the bikes are faster than the 'copters. Therefore the main vantage points should have searchable separate articles, IMO. The main structure has already been established, so it would be counter-productive to delete a few - the three which have been proposed for deletion would rate at 11-20 on a scale of importance starting at 1, but I would also advocate that some should be consolidated, eg Bedstead Corner to be combined with nearby The Nook, Isle of Man as a prime candidate being historic but minor, not major viewing points (this latter comment for the above editor).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:14, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have now had the opportunity to go through contributions to ascertain that the same editor has nominated for deletion - or intends to nominate - many more TT Course locations than I originally surmised.

From the AfD list below, the majority are arguably 'world famous'; the other three are minor and could be retained and merged into preceding and following locations as appropriate, with name-changes and redirects. The standard of the content is often poor.

Gardener's Lane
Ballahutchin Hill
Glenlough

User @Agljones: has striven, along with others, to establish articles which should be retained and improved. Using the catch-all ploy of 'notability' is inappropriate where consecutive historic physical localities are involved.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Notability is not a "catch-all ploy", it is "a generally accepted standard", with no exception for a bend on a road. Your fatuous claim to have "ascertained" my intentions is bogus. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:24, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 12:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Diffs below from the nominating editor dated 3 November on landmark TT locations - the whole doesn't work with pieces of the jigsaw missing. Taken together indicates a concerted effort at retrograde deletions concerning a series of related articles.
Some articles could be merged together and remain searchable, but not imported into over-lengthy articles such as "the history of the TT races; and/or a description of the whole course" as stated in the nomination.
Admittedly the stubs are poor and often have been abandoned, but other forms of banner-waving would be more sensible and possibly more productive - I haven't the time to monitor and improve, at least for the remainder of 2014.
Sulby - "rm infobox, pending its deletion"
B'garrow - "replace infobox, pending its deletion"
Glen Vine - "rm infobox, pending its deletion"--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 11:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:AGF has not been suspended. The "its" in "its deletion" refers to {{Infobox Isle of Man TT course}}, not the articles. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - I already figured that out; articles can have more than one infobox. Where there is a village article existing, it needs a section developing, deletion is not the way forward. As stated, I don't have the time to do it; I can envisage the format of improvements, but it's unlikely to eventuate with the risk of one individual making a unilateral decision to delete and it's too much trouble for others to get involved in. Once again, Wikipedia is the sufferer.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 13:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    - Windy Corner is not a village; it is, as the article under discsussion tells us, "a bend on the primary A18 road " - and one for which no evidence of notability has been offered. There is no instance of "one individual making a unilateral decision to delete "; that's pure FUD. I note that you have again posted the same text to three separate pages. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or Merge with A18 or create Sneafell Mountain Road. Seriously. A BEND IN THE ROAD? Unless we are talking a major Dead Man's Curve or something, I think not GNG. Merge Montanabw ^(talk) 19:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The article Windy Corner, Isle of Man has notability as it is a well-known part of the Isle of Man TT Course. It is also named as a corner on the UK Ordnance Survey map for the Isle of Man (Sheet 95) and also named corner on Google Maps. It has been listed as a name corner in publications since the 1930's include official maps and course guides.
In 2007, I rewrote the Wikipedia article for the Snaefell Mountain Course and removed a long list of names of corners as it had been plagiarised from a publication about the Isle of Man TT races including a number of inaccuracies and incorrect information.
The current format of the Wikipedia article has a much improved structure and information can be easily added when it becomes available and due to its success has been translated into other languages on Wikipedia. There are an extensive number of equivalent articles about the Snaefell Mountain Course and their places names on the Netherlands Wikipedia site. However, these articles do not quote any sources and have been extensively plagiarised from to recent Isle of Man TT publications in the English language and also translating directly from the equivalent English Wikipedia article and again without quoting sources. The style of the Netherlands Wikipedia Isle of Man TT articles is also in an tabloid newspaper/internet blogging style and it is unusual to find this type of style being adopted on English language Wikipedia pages. The Netherlands Wikipedia Isle of Man TT articles also lists the fatal accidents to competitors and sometimes this has been included in a trivial manner.
To return to the previous 2007 format for the Snaefell Mountain Course is not a viable alternative. I created separate articles for each of the more famous parts of the Isle of Man TT Course. However, other contributors have added extra articles and then abandoned them without trying to extend the articles or improving them. I have had problems with editing conflicts of many Isle of Man TT articles including incorrect information and problems with editing style. It may not be understood by editors reviewing many articles about the Isle of Man TT Races it is difficult to find and research information and present it in a way to provide encyclopaedic value or to conform with Wikipedia editing standards and rules.
Many of the articles that you refer to have been deliberately written in a style that is low-key in respect to the fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races and Manx Grand Prix Races. Also, there has been personal problems, editing conflicts and problems with trying to maintain the low-key style with contributors and editors in regard to the Wikipedia article the list of fatal accidents to competitors on the Snaefell Mountain course. I have tried to maintain a certain style for these Isle of Man TT articles and there has been previous problems of multiple contributions by different editors and some Isle of Man TT articles have been subject to a Wikipedia deletion policy and then later successfully reinstated. I am currently in the process of a complete rewrite of the main Wikipedia Isle of Man TT and the proposed amalgamation/deletion process is unhelpful. Agljones 15:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- tl;dr If this bend in the road has notability, where is the " significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the topic" required by WP:GNG? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:52, 18 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:22, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep~~: The article Windy Corner, Isle of Man has notability as it is a well-known part of the Isle of Man TT Course. It is also named as a corner on the UK Ordnance Survey map for the Isle of Man (Sheet 95) and also named corner on Google Maps. It has been listed as a name corner in publications since the 1930's include official maps and course guides.
The name Windy Corner as an area of open common moorland perhaps pre-dates the building the building of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road due to a number of footpaths and pack-horse routes. The A18 Snaefell Mountain Road is the most important main road on the Isle of Man and was one of the first roads to undergo the tarmacadam process in the 1920's. It is also known world-wide as a spectator vantage point of the Isle of Man TT Races. The article now has sufficient in-line citations and restructured for notability to be included as an article.Agljones 21:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Stricken duplicate vote. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:07, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Load of rubbish. Nearly every street and at least a 3rd of the worlds local landmarks are listed on Google Maps, that is not any idea of notability. In addition, readers of Wikipedia are in no way served by having to go between a pile of stubs or start articles. A comprehensive article on the course is needed, not this mess about every landmark on it. JT_dale^Talk~ 13:18, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Come on, guys. This isn't remotely a notable corner; if the likes of Eau Rouge/Radillon at Spa, and the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca don't have articles, then there is no way this one should have one. Those are infinitely more notable corners than this, which is just a bend on an A-road, and is used once a year for racing. As stated above, being a named corner on a map is meaningless, and that has never been something used for notability. Ditto course guides, which are primary sources or routine anyway. Notability of the road does not pass on automatically to the corner either. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:24, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As previously stated the article for the Windy Corner has been restructured and rewritten with in-line citations for notability to be included as an article and also as an Isle of Man stand-alone article independent of any connection of any Isle of Man TT racing connection.
The example given was that the United Kingdom UK Ordnance Survey map for the Isle of Man (Sheet 95) in the Landranger Series (Scale 1:50,000) includes the Windy Corner and a number of well-known places on the Isle of Man TT Course. For inclusion by the Ordnance Survey then significant notability has to be established. Again, as previously stated the Windy Corner has been included on maps and guides for the Isle of Man TT Races since the 1930's. In respect to Google Maps, the example was given to demonstrate that the Windy Corner could be found easily on mappings system that can be accessed on the internet.
There already exists a Wikipedia article about the course. I have also previously stated that I rewrote the Wikipedia article for the Snaefell Mountain Course and removed a long list of names of corners as it had been plagiarised from a publication about the Isle of Man TT races including a number of inaccuracies and incorrect information. The current format of the Wikipedia article has a much improved structure and information can be easily added when it becomes available and due to its success has been translated into other languages on Wikipedia. The current format for this article when it was rewritten in 2007 generally follows the format of other racing circuits including current Formula 1 courses. Some of the articles are not "piles of stubs" as they have been designed and written to be included as articles in their own right.
The Snaefell Mountain Course is actually used twice a year for the Isle of Man TT Races and Manx Grand Prix. Parts of the course are used for the Rally Isle of Man or for local hillclimbs and for cycling races. The Isle of Man TT Races were considered from the early 1930's to be more important than all major motor-cycle Grand Prix Races placed together and which cannot be said for any other Formula 1 race or any other motor-sport event. Also, the Isle of Man TT Races has been directly linked to the development of the motor-cycle and remains a major worldwide motor-sport event. The Isle of Man TT event has also been directly linked in the 1930's to the development of sport as profession. Also, the number of fatal accidents to competitors on the Snaefell Mountain Course far exceeds the next four most dangerous racing circuits. Recently, the National Geographic Magazine listed the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road in their top-10 driving experience roads.
I would support the deletion of 2 or 3 the pre-existing articles as they have been created by other contributors and then abandoned without being completed. The article for Sulby now has one reference to provide notability along with the article for Barregarrow. I am currently looking for information to expand the article for the Ginger Hall and for Gardeners Lane. The article for Verandah, Isle of Man has been rewritten, expanded and previously deleted information been re-included. I would suggest that the article for The Nook not to be deleted or merged as it refers to the major road reconstruction at Governors Bridge. The same article also provides a link to the list of fatal accidents to competitors on the Snaefell Mountain Course after a recent death to a competitor in 2012 at The Nook and other the articles for the Windy Corner, Verandah, Ginger Hall and Gardeners Lane also linked to the same Wikipedia article the list of fatal accidents to the Snaefell Mountain Course. The articles for Bedstead Corner and Sulby Bridge should be included as they are linked to the history of the Isle of Man TT Races. Agljones 20:43, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

It matters not one jot how notable the Isle of Man TT is, how notable the course is, etc... notability is not inherited. All your walls of text do is support the notability of everything bar the corner... which was never in doubt anyway. All that matters is the CORNER here - and the corner clearly fails any notability guideline you throw it at. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:57, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is an area of common land which has an unusual name and pre-dates the building of the road. The article has been rewritten to reflect this fact and to provide notability would need research in the British Museum in London. It is not a question of notability inherited or otherwise. The A18 Mountain Road and the Isle of Man TT Races are secondary. An editor has almost picked at random articles to be deleted and the editing guidelines have not been applied uniformly as can be seen on the same articles on Wikipedia Netherlands. One of the articles mentioned has now disappeared without a discussion. There has been a discussion between editors that regularly contribute to motor-cycle articles how the structure of the Isle of Man TT articles and history should be developed. Wikipedia editing guide-lines precludes original research. However, I guess that you have never driven on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road and the used to be a very bad bump on the entrance to the Windy Corner and the fierce crosswinds during the winter have to be experienced to believed. Much more of a corner than Eau Rouge. The road section at Bray Hill is steeper than the Corkscrew corner at Laguna Seca and the bottom of Barregarrow much more technically demanding..... Agljones 21:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- Your walls of text and special pleading - not to mention conjecture about who has driven where - are irrelevant. I have already asked you, above: "If this bend in the road has notability, where is the "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the topic" required by WP:GNG?", but you chose to ignore that. Either provide them, or the article will be deleted, If you cannot do so, and continue to post, you're just wasting your and other people's time. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notability has been provided. See reference to publication Manx Milestones. If you require any further notability then it will take time to find a further significant reference. If there is a problem with this timetable either delete the article or take it to arbitration. It is your editing policy that has been wasting time. Agljones 22:25, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- A single page in a single book, much less one that verifies no more specific point than that "the Windy Corner section was constructed with a purpose built graded road section from a series of pre-existing foot and bridle paths" is not "significant coverage in reliable sources". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notability has been provided. The book Manx Milestones is a significant publication about the roads in the Isle of Man. It describes the A18 Mountain Road in significant detail listing all the road milestones and the entry included in the article is paraphrasing the essential points in reference to the rest of the article to provided a balanced point of view. The article lists the road racing milestones on the Isle of Man TT course that run clockwise as to standardised all the articles as most readers of the articles may be familiar with these racing milestones and the road marker boards as they can be seen in some photographs. However, the book Manx Milestones lists the roadside markers (which are different to the Isle of Man TT road racing milestones) on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road from south to north along the road (ie anticlockwise compared to road racing milestones) and only two other occasions that these road side markers have been listed from the book Manx Milestones as not to cause confusion. I have also listed the road reconstruction work in 2006, although this reference does cite the road safety aspect of the road which provides notability it is essentially from an Isle of Man TT publications. I have searched my own personal archive and I have yet to find a non-racing reference to this road safety work. I could have borrowed another reference but I did not choose to do so. To provided another significant reference may take two or three weeks to research. Again, If there is a problem with this timetable either delete the article or take it to arbitration. I suggest that you remove the notice to delete the article. It is your editing policy that has been wasting time. Agljones 23:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.