Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Fat Controller

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. Piotrus, the nom, has withdrawn, with no other non-keep !votes. (non-admin closure) YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 09:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Fat Controller[edit]

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The Fat Controller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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I prodded it with the following rationale: "The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar." It was deprodded by User:Necrothesp with the following rationale "too iconic for prodding; take to AfD". so here we go Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: There was a brief discussion following the nominator's previous PROD on this article: Talk:The_Fat_Controller#Query_on_notability. As I said in that discussion, my concern is that "The Fat Controller" is often used in wider discussions, from The Economist to the Daily Telegraph (and again more recently: Network Rail boss lined up to lead ‘Fat Controller’ rail shake-up"); the nominator queried whether that establishes it as more a WP:DICDEF. I see that point but think there is enough usage, ranging from specific to the Awdry books and subsequent media, through the "Other Uses" listed in the article, to its frequent referential usage in broader discussion of UK rail management to merit a distinct article. (There is also the re-purposing of the character in Will Self's My Idea of Fun, a secondary reuse discussed in various sources such as this.) AllyD (talk) 09:38, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Iconic figure like Rich Uncle Pennybags. The nomination's assertions are not evidence-based and are false as coverage is readily found: Trains should be run by a 'Fat Controller', for example. As for the PROD, that was disruptive as the process "must only be used if no opposition to the deletion is expected". Andrew🐉(talk) 11:00, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per sources above. The article is undoubtedly full of what we might characterise as WP:CRUFT that I would argue would be better suited to a fan wiki (like the one on Fandom; other wikis are available), but the subject himself is notable. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 12:41, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 13:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the sources provided above and below in this discussion. This character has become a part of popular culture in a way the other recently deleted Thomas characters have not. This one has enough notability to be kept, though it should be cleaned up. Rhino131 (talk) 13:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above, per common sense (an iconic character), and per in opposition to the recent and continuing deletion attempts to cull Wikipedia's Railway Series collection. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:29, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - is as notable as Thomas himself Spiderone 13:39, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Andrew and Ally D. Nightfury 14:27, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The preview I can get suggests some good discussion here, although I can't get the whole thing - He's analyzed as a symbol of capitalism. Less direct mentions here, but the article tends to use him as an extended metaphor. There's more like this. This character does seem to have gotten significant coverage, even in scholarly sources. Hog Farm Bacon 18:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per identified sources. — Toughpigs (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep He is notable. There are a lot of TTTE related fancruft here that's better suited to the fandom wiki, but the Fat Controller is obviously notable. He is a main and iconic character. GhostDestroyer100 (talk) 18:56, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. AFD is not a vote. Please share sources where this character is discussed in depth. All I am seeing so far are few newspaper articles which mention him in passing, none of which contains any analysis to speak of. Academic article found by User:Hog Farm can be assessed through Library Genesis (I can't link it as it is blacklisted, sigh). But most of the discussion there is pure plot summary. Here is the non-plot summary content I was able to find in the article in its entirety (Fat Controller's name is Topham Hatt FYI): "it is prudent to briefly assess the role of Sir Topham Hatt and the show’s setting, the land of Sodor. Sir Topham Hatt (referred to in the UK version as “the fat controller” and made to resemble the capitalist archetype with an iconic top hat and morning suit) was described on the show’s website as “the director of the Railway [who] is responsible for making sure the engines are always Right on Time and Really Useful. He has a firm but kind manner in dealing with the engines and staff, and has risen through the ranks from a railway engineer to his current position.” This description alone implies much about the ideological discourse of upward mobility and worker-management relations. By suggesting that he “has risen through the ranks,” children are encouraged to believe that good manners, hard work, and conformity will eventually pay off despite the sad reality that even with obedience and hard work, few will actually move up the ranks to upper management." That's it. It's not bad, but I don't think this is sufficient to make the subject pass GNG/NFICTION, a few sentences is not in-depth coverage. In the end, al usable content that is not fancruft can be boiled down to one-two sentences - that a single scholar called this character a "capitalist archetype". That's it, as there is nothing else to squeeze from the source. If the article was about him, we could find more, but it is not, this fictional character is just used to reinforce a bigger argument. I am sorry, but we need more and better sources that are in-depth to conclude this character is iconic and notable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:12, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) is neither policy nor guideline – it's just an essay and "Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Wikipedia community..." See also WP:STEAM. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Piotrus, I think the fact that the character is used in headlines like the ones above are the indicators that the character is iconic: I don't know about other countries, but a British reader is supposed to identify clearly what is being suggested as the responsibility of the new role simply by the description as being like this character. As for notability, I've found a couple more sources just now: "Who Controls the Fat Controller" I can't access all of, but seems to involve an extended metaphor of the FC in relation to corporate heads, and "Doubting Thomas", which I can access and has detailed analysis of the character. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 09:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, as he is a very significant character within this famous show. Félix An (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This man's authoritative presence on his island of steam and unruly locomotives was held up as an avatar to my 4 year old self for want of Piagetesque constructivism No Swan So Fine (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Withdraw. Although most keep votes above are just WP:ILIKEIT and its variations, sufficient reliable and in-depth sources have been found as well, thanks! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - per arguments above - I see it has been withdrawn anyway but this one is a keeper for me.GizzyCatBella🍁 09:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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