Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Netiv HaAsara massacre

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Daniel (talk) 22:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Netiv HaAsara massacre[edit]

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Netiv HaAsara massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Like with many other similar pages, this page does not stand up to basic scrutiny. Very few sources. Not a single one refers to a "Netiv HaAsara massacre" or even a "massacre in Netiv HaAsara". Virtually no coverage as a standalone event. All coverage discusses the broader October 7 attack and how it partly took place in Netiv HaAsara. Claiming a Netiv HaAsara massacre goes against WP:OR, WP:POV, and WP:VER. Dylanvt (talk) 15:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  1. מצמרר: הקצין שנפל ניבא את אפשרות הטבח בנתיב העשרה
  2. בעלה והבן נרצחו, שני הבנים פצועים קשה: "לא נשאר לי כלום, אבל אחזור לנתיב העשרה"
  3. צה"ל חיסל את בכיר החמאס שפיקד על הטבח בנתיב העשרה וארז
  4. ניצל מהטבח וחשף: "אבא שלי קפץ על הרימון – והציל את שנינו"
  5. "רוצים לדעת שלא נצטרך ממ"ד כשנחזור": משפחת דרור מנתיב העשרה מתגעגעת הביתה
  6. לפחות 250 ישראלים נהרגו מהבוקר, בהם שישה ילדים
  7. מלחמה בדרום | לפחות 250 הרוגים: אזרחים וחיילים מוחזקים בעזה, מחבלים מחזיקים בני ערובה בעוטף
  8. צה"ל ושב"כ: חיסלנו את מפקד גדוד בית לאהיה של חמאס | צפו
  9. ‘There was no air force, no soldiers, we were alone,’ says Hamas massacre survivor
  10. אנשי חמאס צנחו וטבחו; בנה של נאוה חיסל מחבל בבית - כשהבנות בממ"ד: "היינו שעות עם גופה במסדרון"
  11. מלחמת פתע: כאלף מחבלים חדרו מעזה לשטח ישראל, למעלה מ-350 נרצחים
  12. ליל הבדולח של נתיב העשרה: הגבורה העילאית של אנשי המושב צמוד הגדר - שנתקלו ראשונים
  13. Нетив а-Асара, граница с Газой: местные жители о 7 октября и будущем
  14. 12-й канал: в Натив-ха Асара террористы сожгли дом с семьей внутри
  15. Inside an Israeli village attacked by Hamas: ‘Today, nobody lives here’
  16. Igal and Amit Wachs, 52 & 48: US-Israeli brothers killed defending town
  17. Danny Vovk, 45: ZAKA diver ‘fended off 20 terrorists’ before death
  18. Arieh, Ruti & Or Akuni: 68, 67, 32: Parents, daughter slain at home
  19. Evacuated musician Micha Bitton sings about life near Gaza
  20. 2 Israeli-American brothers were among several Netiv HaAsara residents who were killed
  21. ‘It’s a Miracle We’re Alive’: Netiv HaAsara Resident Recalls Her Family’s Harrowing Survival of Hamas Attack
  22. Claroty CEO copes with loss: Wife's mother murdered by Hamas, soldier son injured
  23. As They Mourn Their Loved Ones, These Families Are Pleading for Peace
  24. Survivor of Hamas terror attack refuses to leave Gaza border home after husband and son murdered
  25. Opinion: Hamas’ barbarity broke my heart. Some of my friends are breaking it a second time
With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 18:36, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did you actually read a single one of these 25 "sources" before posting them? You've just posted a list of news articles that do not, in fact, provide support for a "Netiv HaAsara massacre" in the hopes that nobody will check them to verify. There are virtually no references to this as a specific event, separate from the broader October 7 attack. Especially in English-language sources, the word "massacre" is pretty much never used, especially in reference to this specific event.
  1. One IDF officer simply predicted there would be a massacre if he weren’t there.
  2. Per WP:COMMONNAME, English sources should be used for determining how to name something on English Wikipedia. This source says (in translation, which can be fickle): "One of the survivors of the severe massacre in the Netiv Hathara Moshav..." So it kind of supports your stance, but again, this is English Wikipedia, not Hebrew Wikipedia.
  3. Again, in Hebrew. Says both massacre and attack in translation.
  4. Sort of implies a separate event from the broader attacks, but again in Hebrew so can't be used for WP:COMMONNAME.
  5. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre".
  6. Again doesn’t specify a distinct “Netiv HaAsara massacre”, just that some victims of a broader October 7th massacre were in Netiv HaAsara.
  7. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre".
  8. No mention of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Refers to "murderous attacks in Kibbutz Erez and the Moshav Netiv HaThara".
  9. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre".
  10. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". The only use of the word that is translated as "massacre" is from primary sources (i.e. the opinion of a resident, not a third-party source).
  11. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Barely even mentions Netiv HaAsara at all.
  12. No mention of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Unclear if they're referring to a distinct “Netiv HaAsara massacre” or just a broader “October 7 massacre”.
  13. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre.
  14. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre.
  15. No mention of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Vaguely implies a massacre with the line "He said he has been told they stopped 80 attackers just east of Netiv HaAsara and prevented an even bigger massacre", but again this is a primary source. Can't be used to establish notability.
  16. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  17. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  18. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  19. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  20. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  21. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  22. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", only a broader "October 7 massacre".
  23. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Only a vague reference to "Hamas's massacres" (not in the context of Netiv HaAsara), and a mention of the "massacre at the music festival at Re'im." Not even about the attack broadly.
  24. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", or in fact any massacre. The word "massacre" doesn't even appear in the source.
  25. No mention or implication of a "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Also an opinion piece and thus useless for demonstrating notability.
Nobody is arguing that people didn't die in Netiv HaAsara. But the sources simply do not support a standalone article on a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", no matter how atrocious you think the attack was. Even if the article were stay, against the policy of Wikipedia, there is absolutely no way to justify calling it a "massacre" when English language sources do not refer to it that way. Dylanvt (talk) 20:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then do a rename or retitle discussion. Not an AFD. Andre🚐 21:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that the name is wrong, it's that these sources don't even refer to this as a distinct event. Having this article is WP:OR. If the sources don't talk about a "Netiv HaAsara massacre", then we can’t have an article on the "Netiv HaAsara massacre". Dylanvt (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They do mention exactly this event in the amount that is well required for GNG. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 21:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s simply not true. Dylanvt (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you understand the difference between GNG, delete and rename? With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - plenty of third party reliable sources. WP:GNG.BabbaQ (talk) 18:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Are we going to have an article for every skirmish in the war? I can't see this as being any different than the other hundreds of battles all over Ukraine and Israel that have happened. Sure it happened, but having an article for every time an attack happens seems pointless. The article is less than a few paragraph, but we've been given over 25 sources at this point, telling me they are largely just repeating the same limited facts over and over. Oaktree b (talk) 19:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, we will. As far as it complies with GNG. No one limits many many articles Jews or Ukrainians are allowed to have. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a battle, not Jews or Ukrainians or anything like that. Oaktree b (talk) 05:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep meets GNG, there should be a moratorium on further AFDs of similar articles and user warned for tendentious pointy nominations Andre🚐 19:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, as this just doesnt get the level of coverage that the independently notable attacks like Be'eri and Reim get. You might think having all these little trafficked articles is useful, but it is substantially less useful than having a comprehensive main article with split out articles for the topics that have the depth of information that merits it. There just isnt enough here, but this is pointless, as people who are going to take a merge as a position on the importance of the topic, as opposed to a view of where it is best covered, are going to choose number of articles over the usefulness of articles. This article is going to get next to no views, and you would be much better off having the main article on the attack be more polished and comprehensive than spending time on these ancillary articles that dont do anything but repeat what the main article should have in it. nableezy - 21:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't have necessarily opposed a merge or at least I consider merge to be a good faith, reasonable argument that I would strongly consider. But this user instead decided to propose deletion and tag all the articles with POINTy notability and POV tags. Andre🚐 21:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    100%. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not opposed to a merge either. From what I understood, AfDs often lead to merges, and I think that's a reasonable outcome. Dylanvt (talk) 21:35, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, in this case it will most likely lead to "Keep" if the trend keeps up. You can propose another merge in the future. Andre🚐 21:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - A massacre of twenty civilians by terrorists deserves an article. דוד שי (talk) 10:57, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Let alone 21 dead, and many dozens of wounded, in this very small community. Such large number of casualties is detrimental to this community, and its way of life. 93.173.65.132 (talk) 14:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep . No valid reason for deletion was given; Oleg Yunakov provided clear evidence of notability above. At most, grounds for a rename discussion were given. Marokwitz (talk) 13:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep . "Like with many other similar pages, this page does not stand up to basic scrutiny. Very few sources. Not a single one refers to a "Netiv HaAsara massacre" or even a "massacre in Netiv HaAsara"." - did whoever said do looked into the sources? They all related directly to the Netiv HaAsara massacre. Agmonsnir (talk) 10:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A significant event and covered in many sources in many places.Eladkarmel (talk) 13:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. AfD debates often focus on the trivial, here notability. Notability, however, is insufficient for a keep. An article also needs to be long enough, unique enough, and with meaningful texts in order not to be redirected or merged. This is often the more challenging test to pass, especially when a topic is part of a larger event or other thing. Netiv HaAsara massacre also passes that test. Hence the keep. gidonb (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep [I can’t keep creating a new format for each of these similar AfDs so you’ll forgive me if I use the template used at another AfD, customizing for this one’s details] I’m not going to address the naming issue as that belongs to a rename Move not an AfD. I agree with the nominator that this article is not is not sufficiently wikified, nor does it have sufficient resourcing. I assume it was written by someone unaware of wikipedias policy. But I don’t agree that the subject isn’t worthy of if it’s own article:
  • The OP’s reference to OR relates I believe to the naming issue, which isn’t relevant here. The determinant of notability is wide coverage in reliable resources. The sources in the current article don’t show this. But the superficial analysis I did of google search results for "Netiv HaAsara", and the overwhelming number of Oleg Y.’s sources, do show such resources (see below).
  • in terms of POV if the source is RS it’s bias should be determined by consensus on an item-by-item, article-by-article basis. If bias exists it also doesn’t mean discarding a resource, it’s substance should be reported in neutral wiki voice and balanced by other resources as appropriate.
  • My superficial google search found the following references which include Netiv HaAsara as 50+ % of the coverage (some less like the names of those killed, but that is a necessary source for an enlarged article). I stopped once I determined that there was enough diverse coverage to make this article notable and NPOV. I’m not guaranteeing that all are reliable, but given how small a sample this is, they indicate the existence of sufficient sources for notability and npov:
  • Tour of Netiv HaAsara after bombing, article and video Global News Canada
  • 3 eye-witness accounts from Netiv HaAsara NYTimes
  • Names of 15 killed at Netiv HaAsara Times of Israel
  • 2 Israeli-American brothers killed at Netiv HaAsara CNN
  • Hamas commander who led attack on Erez and Netiv HaAsara killed USA Today
  • Aftermath in Netiv HaAsara Irish Times
  • Video report on Hamas Paraglider attack on Netiv HaASara 11Alive
  • Article on Netiv HaAsara based on two elderly residents who had been interviewed 6 months before being killed in attack Haaretz
in terms of Oleg Y.‘s references there are many which establish notability for a Netiv HaAsara article (again ignoring the red herring for AfD of what such an article should be called). Before I review these I want to point out a translation (actually transliteration) issue. The full name of the place in Hebrew is מושב נתיב העשרה (Translit: Mosahav Netiv HaAsara, en: (loosely) Village of the Path of the Ten). Google Translate sometimes seems to transliterate the Hebrew word for HaAsara as Ha’Thara/HaTara etc, but this is wrong and the Hebrew word refers to the place under discussion.
I indicate below which of the 25 resources support notability for the article:
  1. The IDF soldier is talking about a previous (before 7/10) battle in the area where if he had not been there a massacre could have occurred. Not related to this article.
  2. Whole article and video about mother from Netiv HaAsara who lost husband and son, with other two sons heavily injured during attack.
  3. Reporting on killing of Hammas commander who lead attack on Netiv HaAsara (similar to USA Today above but different source)
  4. Mother and son who survived the Netiv HaAsarah attack when father jumped on grenade to save them. Details of how the battle unfolded.
  5. Survivor of Netiv HaAsara attack discussing her experience and whether she will return.
  6. Names 15 people killed at Netiv HaAsara (similar to Times of Israel above, but different source)
  7. Same as previous (15 names). Not required because of previous 2 resources. But does show widespread reporting.
  8. Report on killing of Hamas commander who led attack on Erez and Netiv HaAsara. Surplus to requirement because of other two sources, but does give give slightly more info on use of paragliders.
  9. Whole article about interviews with Netiv HaAsara survivors at hotel they were evacuated to. Details of how attack unfolded
  10. Only one short comment from resident of Netiv HaAsara
  11. Mention of 15 killed. Not as detailed as others
  12. Very long and detailed article on attack on Netiv HaAsara. Discusses entire battle how it unfolded etc.
  13. (Russian so dependent on Google Translate) Whole article on visit to and interview with survivor of attack on Netiv HaAsara.
  14. (Russian) Short article on Netiv HaAsara. Already covered in other sources
  15. Same as article I found above (Global News Canada).
  16. Similar to article above re Israeli-American brothers killed, different source.
  17. Details of ambulance driver living in Netiv HaAsara who was killed defending the Moshav
  18. Details of parents and daughter killed at Netiv HaAsara
  19. Musician who survived Netiv HaAsara attack
  20. Same (2 brothers) as article I found above.
  21. Netiv HaAsara survivor describes her experience.
  22. CEO of the cybersecurity company Claroty’s mother-in-law killed at Netiv HaAsara. Most of article not relevant but would support line in deaths section.
  23. Son of parents killed at Netiv HaAsara calls for peace. Also one line in article.
  24. Same family mentioned in (2) in Hebrew. This English article has some additional detail
  25. Article mentions Netiv HaAsara but not directly,related to current attack
As I have with a couple of articles, if the decision is keep I will investigate resources in depth and use them to wikify the articles. Happy editing. Ayenaee (talk) 03:36, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per Ayenaee. There are plenty of independent sources. Dovidroth (talk) 07:02, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Keep - sorry, don't know how to add as stand-alone, so I'm using "reply".
    This repeats itself, see Holit massacre AfD further up the page. My opinion stays the same: it wasn't a "Hamas attack", it was a pre-planned, intentional threefold terror action of killing, taking hostages, and "humiliating" (a big issue in the perpetrators' mentality), the latter including rape, mutilation of the living and the dead, and definitely filming and posting it "for the world to see". This was a separate task, even if simultaneous and intertwined with the attack on military (IDF, police) targets. So 2 distinct tasks, not one.
    As long as there's no "October 7th Hamas massacres" article, there is nothing to merge these mini-articles with. Allow for that, and we can gladly talk! Discard the "massacres" concept, and any rational, self-respecting editor should fight you tooth and nail, no matter where he stays on "the conflict", or I/P. Conversely, the same rationale can be applied to any events where the Israeli side inflicted suffering of one type or another on the Palestinian side: let rational thinking & analysis prevail. Arminden (talk) 21:46, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The sources above show this more than meets GNG.  // Timothy :: talk  07:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per @Ayenaee and the above. By the way @Ayenaee, excellent research (I saw also on another AFD that you did thorough research so well done!). I agree there is room to improve article. Homerethegreat (talk) 17:38, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep!!! The horrendous massacres that day (Re'im music festival massacre, Be'eri massacre, Kfar Aza massacre, Nahal Oz attack ...) and the monstrous atrocities committed out by Hamas terrorists - rapes, beheadings, torturing, burning people alive - overshadowed this "small massacre" in terms of media coverage. Not plenty of sources but enough to solidly support the claims. Finally - an intentional killing of more than twenty civilians by Hamas is clearly a massacre - and deserves an article. GidiD (talk) 15:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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