Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mic Diggy (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ansh666 20:31, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mic Diggy[edit]

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Mic Diggy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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While I cannot see the 2016 version that was ultimately deleted, this go at the article seems to be much stronger. Its best claim at notability seems to be Musiobio #11 but sourcing in article is YouTube and I couldn't find any RS to support. No RS is present in page (Zambia's Daily Mail likely would be but articles present are user generated). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:54, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49 According to you, Zambia Daily Mail is only reliable if the article is written by a paid staff of ZDM. Kelvin Kachingwe has been writing for ZDM for a long time now. So what exactly is your point? Cause really if you took time to actually read the article there are various references there. Regarding Newdiggers, tumfweko, zambian observes. All not reliable sources to you ? Vicmullar (talk) 17:24, 22 July 2018 (UTC) — Vicmullar (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Vicmullar, the references are very poor – lots of links to music streaming sites (which don't prove the music is notable, simply that it exists) and blogs which don't pass WP:RS. It's not Barkeep49's opinion that only articles by paid staff count as reliable, it's Wikipedia's standard for reliable sources – please read WP:RS to see what sources are acceptable. The Zambian Observer and Tumfweko sites are exactly the same story, word-for-word, which probably means Tumfweko is a blog that copies news it finds on other outlets. In any case, the news story in question simply calls Mic Diggy "a fan" and says absolutely nothing about him... it doesn't even say that he is a musician himself and provides zero meaningful content. The two sources related to his supposed biggest performance fail to mention him at all, so there is no proof that he actually performed at the Mosi Day of Thunder. Richard3120 (talk) 19:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Richard3120 ACTUALLY,THE ARTICLE daily-mail.co.zm/mic-diggy-signs-cd-run IS WRITEN BY A PAID ZDM STAFF MAKING IT A RS. SEE HIS ARTICLESS ON ZDM. MIC DIGGY WAS A FAN Of SLAP DEE, AND WAS INFLUED BY SLAP DEE AND ZONEFAM FROM WHAT I KNOW HENCE THE FAN STATEMENT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.77.149.190 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 24 July 2018 (UTC) — 41.77.149.190 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Checking Kelvin Kachingwe's credentials, you are right, he is a senior journalist at the Daily Mail so it passes RS. But still, this looks like the only useful RS in the whole article, and it needs multiple reliable sources to be considered for retention. I don't doubt that Mic Diggy might have been a fan of Slapdee, but there is nothing in the sources provided that prove that Mic Diggy is a musician himself, that he has made records, or that the tweet resulted in a long-running beef between the artists... so the sources provide no useful information and do not support any of the claims made in the article. Richard3120 (talk) 13:46, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: in fact, looking into it further, there's no evidence that this was a "highly publicized beef" between the pair – Slapdee reacted badly to some criticism, and that's it... there is no evidence that he had any idea who Mic Diggy is, or that he recorded a diss track in response to the criticism. The whole incident seems to have been blown up out of all proportion in Mic Diggy's mind, but there is no evidence that either Slapdee or the Zambian media took any notice of this supposed feud, apart from the one interview on Unza Radio... which is sourced to Mic Diggy's own YouTube channel and therefore fails as a primary source. Richard3120 (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sympathetic to the idea that Mic Diggy is notable in Zambia - judging notability in many countries is hard. However, despite good faith efforts by Vicmullar I don't think it has yet been proven to Wikipedia's defintion as Ricahrd3120 has shown here. I try not to get involved in AfD discussions where I've nominated (think frequently no one looks good there) but wanted to note that this analysis is in-line with mine. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, which is why I don't want to jump and say "delete" just yet, because there may be reliable Zambian sources. I just wanted to note that as they stand, almost all the sources are bad ones, either linking to music streaming sites, Mic Diggy's YouTube channel, or obvious blogs, and that few of the claims in the article have any evidence supporting them. Hopefully the article creator or another editor can find some good sources to show this article is worth keeping, but unfortunately at the moment I can't. Richard3120 (talk) 16:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not to disagree with you folks, you both have valid points. I like the point Barkeep49 made saying "judging notability in many countries is hard" correct. Know why? i Don't even know where this discussion started from but hey, i was actually researching mic diggy, cause of a song i heard on radio last night. Saw the knowledge graph thingy clicked on it, cause i was curious that's how am here. Am not a fan of his just yet but i like selected songs. Point am trying to make is that, in Zambia if you do a little bit of digging you would say there is literally no celeb. what i mean is that the industry is small, no paparazzi non of that. And mostly its blogs that promote/talk about musicians alot. Most things including music, interviews are posted on youtube. And if you can randomly pic any zambian musician on here, 3/4 you will find a ZDM link somewhere, and ZDM don't just write about anyone. News papers rarely write about musicians Unless its a scandal. There's no big websites like in the US or any other western countries. Blogs do most of the publishing. And regarding the mosi day of thunder thingy, the chap was actually there, he performed under "Many more". I don't know if in other countries there's such a thing as many more, where a main act and various artists are allowed to support the show by performing 1 or 2 songs. And the ZDM article actually states that mic diggy is a musican. There are a lot of blog links i can share with you guys for the sake of seeing the picture not to change anything. And one thing i should say is that, if you both used this energy to actually, develop the article, then it would be better. Remember 2 is better than one and change start with you all. Am not a wikipedian i don't much of the rules here so i can't contribute. Peace hope you guys reach a better agreement

PS I don't know if this will help but these are some of the links to mic diggy's music, https://www.datafilehost.com/d/32826236, https://www.datafilehost.com/d/f49f780a https://www.datafilehost.com/d/3584de30 and the download numbers ain't bad. 10,000+ , 4000+, 8000+ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.56.52.141 (talk) 19:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, the download links don't help, that's just promotional spam and only proves his music exists, not that it's notable in any way. My cousin has music available on iTunes and Amazon, and she's not notable enough to have a Wikipedia article either. What makes you think we haven't made any effort to try and improve the article? We just haven't been able to find any more reliable sources apart from the ZDM one. Blogs won't be acceptable I'm afraid, and we can't take your word for it that Mic Diggy performed at Mosi Day of Thunder, we need a reliable source talking about his performance by name and in detail. Yes, a main act and support acts is exactly how it works in the US, UK and other countries... but if an act is only the support, that doesn't make them notable here either. If any Zambian editors can provide links to in-depth articles from reliable sources (not blogs) about Mic Diggy, we'd be glad to see them and it might make us change our minds. Richard3120 (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Richard3120 I don't think they added the link to spam or promote anyone but to talk about "numbers" not your cousin. Anyways the reason Barkeep49 nominated the article was because according to them the ZDM article on Mic Diggy was not a reliable source. Now that we all know that it is, i don't see the reason the the deletion tag should be up. And i'll take time to summaries and edit out a few parts, till i get additional references. Regards Vicmullar (talk) 03:32, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify I have always hedged about ZDM - saying it likely is RS. Even if it is, one of the articles does not appear to be written by ZDM staff. The second article [1] is not about Mic Diggy (and doesn't mention him at all) so it doesn't help prove Mic is notable. My bottom line is that there is not sourcing available to prove he's notable and so my !vote remains delete. Best,

Barkeep49 (talk) 03:42, 25 July 2018 (UTC) The article daily-mail.co.zm/mic-diggy-signs-cd-run was written by Kelvin Kachingwe and if you see his credentials, he is a senior journalist at the Daily Mail so it passes RS Richard3120 confirmed that. My vote is you remove the deletion unless you have any other agenda Vicmullar (talk) 03:48, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vicmullar, the requirement is for multiple independent sources, so we need more than just the one ZDM source. And it's not up to the nominator to remove the AfD tag, that will be done by the administrator once a discussion has taken place over the next couple of weeks, hopefully with the involvement of more editors, and a consensus has been reached about this article. Richard3120 (talk) 03:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Saying the article has no sources is an understatement. I vote undelete. the article passes * Notability guide for musicians etc.

"Saying the article has no sources is an understatement" - nobody has said that, and you haven't shown how the article passes either of those guidelines. Richard3120 (talk) 19:06, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have been able to dig out some sources. Here is this article about him published in 2015 by Lusaka Times (Artist Profie : Upcoming Rapper Mic Dee), of course we all know about Zambia Daily [2], both RS news agencies in Zambia.Senegambianamestudy (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the Lusaka Times is a reliable source, actually – its "about us" page [3] describes it as an online platform where anyone can contribute items and the author "Kapa187" doesn't sound like a professional journalist's username. Richard3120 (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm not seeing the sources that would make it make it pass the WP:GNG. I'd also like to point out that Daily Mail has a consensus for being unreliable in music related articles, per WP:NOTRSMUSIC, and I even think there's a higher consensus not to use it in a general sense out there as well. (And even if its unrelated to the Daily Mail, "paying their staff" isn't enough to automatically assume reliability either. Sergecross73 msg me 17:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepSergecross73 Take note that Zambia Daily Mail is a RS. The UK based daily mail is the one that is said to be unreliable. Take note of the difference(s). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.56.52.226 (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no such consensus designating Zambia Daily Mail a reliable source. I have not seen a valid argument towards its reliability here or elsewhere. You can't just declare it as such. And again, the WP:GNG requires multiple sources. At the very very lowest, that would be 2 sources required, though many editors require 3-5 to be convinced, especially in things like WP:BLPs, which have much stronger requirements for sourcing statements. Sergecross73 msg me 21:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Sergecross73 i don't really think that just anyone can add content on Lusaka Times have you tried ? for arguments sake. Vicmullar (talk) 19:23, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sergecross73 didn't say that, I did – I based that on this direct quote from their website: "Lusakatimes also provides a platform for any Zambian who want their article published"... that doesn't sound like there is any editorial control over what articles appear on the website. Richard3120 (talk) 19:45, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. It sounds like it would fails WP:USERG. (Also, potentially WP:ROUTINE as well.) Sergecross73 msg me 21:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 12:14, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Richard3120 Please do further research before making assumptions.Vicmullar (talk) 16:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Er, why should I assume the Lusaka Times is reliable when all the indications are that it isn't? Richard3120 (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Richard has done sufficient research. You are the one who has made no valid argument towards the websites reliability. It doesn’t seem anyone in favor of keeping has any knowledge of Wikipedia’s standards for source reliability and subject notability at all. It’s all desperate grasping for straws and appeals to emotion. No valid argument has been presented yet. Sergecross73 msg me 00:41, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

commentI don't think anyone is emotional here, its just that others fail to respect other people point of view. There are claims on this thread stating that ZDM musical articles can not be RS without notable sources. Lusakatimes is actually a RS in Zambia. Check the wikipedia List of newspapers in Zambia. So according to your arguments you deem Lusakatimes unworthy because its about section states "Lusakatimes also provides a platform for any Zambian who want their article published" You should note that Zambia is a big country and its population isn't 100 or 1000 people. PS there are alot of musicians in Zambia, they do provide the platform to anyone meeting their criterion of notability. I think you should contact them and find out more from them. And secondly since when do you judge the professionalism of journalist based on their names ? what's next? skin color?. According to you we are all ignorant now ? please lets learn to respect each other. I don't agree with your methods but i respect you

This response is exactly what I’m talking about. The above comment gave zero valid reasons for being reliable, and then started a random musing if determining sources reliability will somehow lead to bigotry and racism. That’s about as emotional of a response possible. Its not just a matter of not seeing eye to eye; there’s no past precedent for any of the things you’re saying here. Sergecross73 msg me 13:46, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment i came across this https://zambianeye.com/mic-diggy-apologies-to-slap-d-on-znbc-radio-4s-hip-hop-eardrum/ hope it helps and is a RS

  • Delete' at first i tagged this biography with a proposed deletion tag due to the fact that this is a biography of a non-notable musical artist and am from Zambia even i dont know him. Chabota Kanguya (talk) 22:39, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chabota Kanguya abeg, typical Crab mentality.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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