Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Ukrainian officials dismissed during the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. While the discussion gave evidence of ample sourcing concerning the sackings, the consensus position is that it failed to suggest that the the personnel moves were associated with the counteroffensive. Lacking that comment thread ran afoul of WP:SYNTH. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 13:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of Ukrainian officials dismissed during the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive[edit]

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Should this article be deleted? It is similar to List of Russian generals killed during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which was once AfDed. It was kept on the basis that there were reliable sources discussing the phenomenon of many Russian generals dying during the invasion. Here are some of them, you can see they indeed discuss the general topic by reading their titles [1] [2] [3] [4].

About this article though I haven't found such types of general sources, they all discuss individual cases of dismissals and do not connect them nor associate them to the failed counteroffensive. See for example these articles [5] [6], they discuss the collective dismissal of six commanders but explain they are rather due to corruption rather than anything related to the counteroffensive and do not mention previous dismissals. In the absence of sources like the ones I described it becomes apparent this article is a WP:SYNTH mash-up, possibly with the so far unverifiable point of view of arguing that failures in the counteroffensive led to dismissals of officers.

By the way, Russian-language sources don't discuss this as a phenomenon either. I made some Google searches and it was mostly about Zaluzhnyi's possible dismissal. Ukrainian-language sources also don't discuss this. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military, Russia, and Ukraine. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 11:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I can see the utility of this list. Certainly a matter of ongoing news coverage. Useful compilation. Carrite (talk) 00:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you then cite an article titled something like "Ukraine has dismissed many military officers during/due to the counteroffensive"? Such articles would exist if it was a matter of ongoing news coverage. What we have so far is a mix of sources talking about dismissals that happened to take place during the counteroffensive, excluding any dissmissals that happened before or after it, without sources making a connection between these specific dismissals and the counteroffensive, this connection is made by this list's author instead. This is WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:27, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zelenskiy ramps up anti-corruption drive as 15 Ukrainian officials exit Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article isn't titled List of Ukrainian officials dismissed during anti-corruption measures. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Worse, article is from months before the counteroffensive, so completely unrelated and actually evidence for the "delete" side, showing that sackings happen all the time and the ones during the counteroffensive are in no way exceptional. Fram (talk) 09:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I can see the utility of this list too. A matter of ongoing news coverage. [7][8][9] As for Ukrainian official sources, WP:MANDY applies here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russian sources don't treat this specific topic either. The first source you linked is Zaluzhnyi's dismissal. That is most definitively not during the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive.

The other two sources don't talk about the topic itself of dissmissals during the counteroffensive. I will show the titles of the articles I mentioned above that helped the list of killed Russian generals be kept to show the kind of source that I think should be brought here. How the Russian officer elite has been decimated in Ukraine — here are the generals and top commanders killed in action. Which Russian generals have been killed? The key military commanders Putin has lost in the invasion of Ukraine. These Top Russian Commanders Have Been Killed So Far, According to Ukraine. Russian generals face peril as Ukraine invasion intensfies. These actually talk about the topic itself, rather than say X general died at X date for us to synthezise into a list. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as WP:OR (WP:SYNTH), implying that the dismissals have anything to do with the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive instead of being a normal group of unrelated changes. E.g. the source for the first entry[10] doesn't discuss the counteroffensive, but on the other hand makes it clear that such dismissals had happened often before this as well. Unless sources are provided which treat this combination (sackings / counteroffensive) as a real related notable phenomenon, we shouldn't be the first to suggest such a connection. Fram (talk) 09:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete None of the 12 sources currently in the article make a connection between the dismissals and a wider pattern in regards to the counteroffensive. In fact, on the contrary, one of the sources, instead of the counteroffensive, mentions the "several scandals related to the procurement of equipment and supplies for Ukrainian soldiers" in regards to the defense ministry. Until we find sufficient RS's to make this connection from the dismissals to the counteroffensive, this is OR. Even if we do find sufficient sources, I am not convinced that it can't be covered in the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive article itself. 2G0o2De0l (talk) 01:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 11:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive. I think we can deal this within the article 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive. Many media dealt the problem with changing officials so often in Ukraine, so it can be described in the article.

Wendylove (talk) 01:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete like others above have said, there's nothing that shows a connection between dismissals and the counteroffensive. The Reuters article about six deputy defence minsters explicitly points out that "such moves are common after a new minister's appointment." Without anything to show a clear link between the dismissals and the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive they're just concurrent events and WP:SYNTH. Shaws username . talk . 20:08, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: per args above. In addition, I don't think this has utility for readers under WP:CLN. I dont see any good merge or redirect target, delete seems to only option. // Timothy :: talk 03:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.