Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kinshasa Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 22:33, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kinshasa Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple[edit]

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No coverage in independent reliable sources, all coverage appears to be in sources affiliated with the LDS Church (and thus with the subject), does not meet WP:GNG. It was deleted with more or less the same justification last time it came to AfD, but back then construction had not even begun. Construction is still underway according to LDS sources, but it's further along so it didn't seem appropriate to nominate for speedy deletion. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 02:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I have added two secondary sources to the article to increase the coverage by reliable, unrelated sources. I suspect there are also some sources that exist in French that are actually from the DRC, but I don't know French and they may only be in print, not online. I will keep searching to see if I can find more to add. One of the reasons I have added this article is that currently most temples have articles even if they are only announced. While I don't think those temples ought to have articles yet, this temple is substantially complete. Glennfcowan (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how any of the currently cited sources are independent, they all seem to be explicitly affiliated with the LDS Church. Additionally, just because the church building exists does not make it notable. You may be right about there being sources in French, and would appreciate seeing those. You're welcome to look harder for sources in French, though. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 06:20, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are right about the construction webpage, it is not totally independent since they were paid to design the building and I didn't think about that angle. I do think that the churchofjesuschristtemples.org is an independent source. As far as I can tell, it is run by someone who gathers information about each temple from around the world. The site says at the bottom: This website is NOT an official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Does that count as independent?

They're nominally independent, but I don't see any documentation of their editorial policies that would indicate that they are reliable. It appears to be a very pretty blog. Additionally, while the website is not owned by the LDS Church, the content is exclusively sourced to LDS Church press releases, so the article's still not independent. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 21:29, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that every press release makes it on the site, but I find that it has way more data and pictures than the LDS church ever releases. I think the author goes to great lengths to find people near every temple to get pictures and updates. I don't know how that site gets people in such a wide range of locations. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Glennfcowan (talk) 05:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete Not finding anything when searched in French. You're wlecome to search at the websites listed under Wikipedia:WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo#Library but I don't think there's anything to be found. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:39, 9 December 2018 (UTC) See below. Still seems to be a case of WP:TOOSOON but I don't feel that strongly about about it. -Indy beetle (talk) 16:42, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trying. It is a bit of a challenge since I bet most news sources in the DRC are hard copy. I am going to keep looking. Glennfcowan (talk) 05:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 03:06, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 03:06, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 03:06, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep We have articles on every single temple. To delete this one would just add to the systemic bias excluding articles on things in Africa in Wikipedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:19, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have added additional sources. I suspect there are additional sources available from Kinshasa papers, but they are probably not online.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have added another article. This adds up to sources that in no way are controlled by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints covering this temple. As I said, there are almost certainly some from DR Congo. Unless people have done searches that cover all languages used in DR Congo, which is not just French, I am not convinced people have exhausted possible sources.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The temple is based in Kinshasa. Aside from from French, the only other languages spoken in the city are Kikongo and Lingala. I highly doubt you will find anything in Swahili or Tshiluba language sources, which are spoken much further east. I do not know of very many Lingala or Kikongo language sources in the Congo anyway (French is the lingua franc), and if you really want to contend that coverage exists in the Congolese sources, those listed in WikiProject DRC need to be checked. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've checked most of the news sources listed at WikiProject DRC and this is the only one I've found, Eglise de Jésus-Christ des Saints des derniers jours : Elder Neil L. Andersen lance les travaux de construction du Temple en RDC, a reprinted article from one of the Kinshasa newspapers. It does announce the construction project, but its mostly a feature on the Mormon elder overseeing it. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:59, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - well that still adds up to 3rd party coverage. We have that in multiple ways.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I added an additional source.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have identified other sources such as this [1] and [2] and [3]. Here is a post about the temple and reactions to it [4]. Then there is the Norman Kamosi connection.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:00, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per my reasonings in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newport Beach California Temple; a new temple building in Africa certainly would be notable on the face alone going by how few temples are on that continent. Nate • (chatter) 06:38, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or merge: I think the discussion above misses the point slightly. The sources mentioned appear to be publicizing the existence of the LDS in the Congo for the benefit of American followers of the same religion - I am not convinced that this is enough to establish notability for the Church building in its own right. As Indybeetle points out, there is barely any coverage from the Congo itself and none in "serious" academic sources. Since most Congolese news-sources are online (Le Potentiel, Radio Okapi etc.) this is quite a damning argument. Personally I think the best option would be to merge the current content into the current stub that is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- No the articles in question are explicitly about this building. There is no requirement that the coverage be from the country where the temple is. In fact in other discussions people have tried to use the fact that coverage only comes from the local of the temple to argue to delete the article. It sometimes seems that people will come up with any argument possible to seek to delete coverage on a temple.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:01, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
comment considering there is mention in articles publsied by The Interpretor, the claim of no scholarly coverage is not sustainable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region#Africa, or Merge to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Democratic Republic of the Congo as suggested by Brigade Piron. Right now, there is not enough in-depth coverage to show it passes WP:GNG, and WP:OSE does not appear to be a very good argument in this case.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:11, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:44, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per WP:HEY as the article has been improved with the addition of references to multiple reliable sources coverage that shows that the temple passes WP:GNG and deserves to be included, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.