Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cain (DC Comics)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Despite a lot of the keep !votes lacking any valid arguments, noone who wants to delete the article has sufficiently explained why the coverage presented in the AfD and in the article do not meet the standards of WP:GNG (the Camus chapter or the IGN article for example were not really discussed). There is support to merge the Cain and Abel articles, the discussion of this proposal should continue on the relevant talk pages. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 15:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cain (DC Comics)[edit]

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Zero real world notability. Fails WP:GNG. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 01:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 02:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 02:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep ~~or merge but not delete.~~ Recurring DC character. But notable? Maybe. Since he was a featured recurring hosted characters from DC for a long time . We shall see. All it is missing is reception in all honesty. I should note that this editor is just baiting what seems like new articles but isn’t because it was an old duo article. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 02:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment note:I decided to strike my vote. In my personal opinion it proves notability with my copy edits and research on topic but I can’t speak for everybody on here just yet. It’s better but it ain’t perfect yet. Also with an adaption of the Sandman I feel there might be more coverage of related characters in the future. Here is hoping the Netflix adaptation is well hyped. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 21:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Recurring character across multiple significant titles. Artw (talk) 02:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect - The topic lacks real world information from multiple reliable sources to match the standards of WP:WAF/WP:NOTPLOT and fulfill WP:GNG. TTN (talk) 03:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per TTN, "it's a recurring character" is not a valid argument unless someone can come up with sources that prove notability. There are many recurring characters that lack any sort of notability whatsoever._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 06:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- There is already sources. So keep grasping that we are just using “recurring”. I swear you guys just vote delete for the sake of it. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 13:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*This warrants mentioning at Cain and Abel#Cultural references or another character article, but I don't see how it warrants an article in itself. Dark knight 2149 07:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Here is some primary and secondary coverage for the topic, but not a tonne:

https://ew.com/tv/2018/10/30/chilling-adventures-of-sabrina-sandman-homage/?amp=true

https://bloody-disgusting.com/comics/3615993/dark-side-dc-five-horror-comics-binge-read-dc-universe/

https://www.cbr.com/comic-creators-models-cain-and-abel-len-wein/

https://screenrant.com/swamp-thing-magic-dc-universe/

https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/beginners-guide-dc-horror/

Dark knight 2149 08:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep-This is a good article! It just needs some fixing up. JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 14:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is this presently in good shape? It fails to live up to the standards of WP:WAF. It fails WP:NOTPLOT due to that. It lacks reliable sources discussing the content in a non-trivial manner, so it fails WP:GNG. It seems perfect for a Fandom wiki, but certainly not Wikipedia. TTN (talk) 14:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just about every source talks about its creation and conception. So only partly true. It just need critical reception to warrant their stand alone worthiness to strike out my merge vote which I am tempted to do anyway. There is more than just plot and the plot info is basically adhering to manual of style of the comics WikiProject Comics anyway. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 18:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Let this page stay. Cain and Abel should deserve separate articles per the suggestion of @Jhenderson777:, @Artw:, and Aura. --Rtkat3 (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete. I have a soft spot for Gaiman's stuff, which seems to be the 'high literature' of comics anyway. Sadly, the sources above are very bad (one mentions the subject in a single sentence, that's the very definition of trivial, in passing mention as defined in GNG). The only better source is [1], but it is still still a single one. But at least that's one relatively in-depth source. Can we find one more? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- If you like to read more than I do, @Piotrus:. Here may be an interesting find. I am sure it has info on Cain, Abel and possibly even Eve. I will ping on some more if I find some. Not sure if reliable but it cited sources that are. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Jhenderson777: Thanks, I'll take a look. There is a short discussion of Cain and Abel's origins (House of Secrets (DC Comics), House of Mystery, plus of course the Bible). Unfortunately, I don't see much else of value there, it is the usual plot summary. The best is a short reference to him and his brother as "Gothic/slapstick characters" (and another as to them being "less famous DC characters"). I don't think this is good enough to rescue the brothers from wiki oblivion, but do ping me if there is anything else to review. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:21, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Another one on CBR on Cain and Abel. Disappointedly not one of Eve. But of Lucien. The next character I was going to make an article of right after Eve before the AFD's: https://www.cbr.com/characters-hope-see-netflix-sandman/ Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:20, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yay for Netflix adaptation, but my take on Top 10 would be quire different (Death, Lucien, Cain&Abel, Matthew...). Anyway, off topic :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:24, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - This says the anthologies that focused on Cain and Abel were like childhood readings to Gaiman. Another interesting read maybe. Also yes the Netflix series sounds exciting. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:29, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Here is a mention too. But it says the same thing as said before. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:37, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: There are decent sources already present in the article that have not been addressed here. — Toughpigs (talk) 16:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Abel (DC Comics) - After the major improvements to both articles, I am now convinced that the content is keepable. However, I am not convinced that Cain and Abel are independently notable from each other. Both of these articles need to be combined. Dark knight 2149 21:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized this too. Though they seem to have different appearances. They seem more notable together after all and I failed to see that due to first appearances conflict and sometimes different appearances all together. Also still wondering about Eve who sometimes is interconnected with them too. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 21:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a DC Horror hosts article already? If not it might be an idea to combine all of them. Artw (talk) 02:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Like a list article? It doesn’t sound like a bad idea though I feel that the duo Cain and Abel are notable enough as is. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 03:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: In the alternative, you may also hypothetically merge both articles into a new one called Cain and Abel (DC Comics). Kind of like this Xerneas and Yveltal. Both characters are concepted and linked based on the same biblical dynamic anyway. Haleth (talk) 08:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do believe that was whatDarkKnight2149 meant. I am the one who split them off anyway from and I would unsplit them on Cain and Abel (comics) or somewhere if that be the consensus. All this maybe could be done when the AFD is done. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 13:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The nomination's assertions are false as the page already has plenty of good sources and it is easy to find more, such as The Encyclopedia of the Gothic, which demonstrates the encyclopedic nature of the topic. Policy WP:ATD applies: "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." See also WP:NEXIST. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:52, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkknight2149:. I assume this was what you mean? @Onel5969: Is this sandbox better? Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 17:32, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Sizable article well supported with references. The nomination reference of ‘real world’ makes no sense to me - that certainly does not seem to be a relevant criteria here.--Concertmusic (talk) 19:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - there are references that demonstrate notability. Archrogue (talk) 00:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now, as there is no consensus for deletion. There probably should be some merging between this and the Eve and Abel articles, but that should not be discussed in AFD. Rhino131 (talk) 15:50, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.