Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Berbera

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. A general consensus to keep. No consensus definitively to rename, but such an action could be taken outside of this AfD. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 11:57, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Berbera[edit]

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Previously deleted, this page is a work of Original Research that has created an entire 'Battle of Berbera' out of thin air. It's all nicely decorated, but it's a fantasy. The key work cited (James Marshall's Royal Naval Biography) is 434 pages in extent - there is no page 436 and 437. Lowe's 'History of the Indian Navy' does, however, mention an action taken at Berbera in February: 'Berbera was burnt after a skirmish'. There is no history that mentions a 'Battle of Berbera' and no evidence given in the page that any historian has ever conferred the title 'Battle' on this minor incident. David Laitin, a cited source, does not even bother to mention the bombardment, let alone refer to this incident as the 'Battle of Berbera'. The author has gone to great pains to create links to the 'Battle of Berbera', creating an online false positive for an historical event of no significance that only bears this name because it has been conferred by a Wikipedia editor. Suggest merge any salvageable (properly sourced) content with the Berbera article under the subheading 'Conflict with British' but not 'Battle of Berbera'. To be honest, I worry about other page creations by this editor, such as 'Isaaq Sultanate'... Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as hoax or embellishment of actual events. The Royal Naval Biography was written by one John Marshall, not James, and makes no mention whatsoever of Berbera, let alone a battle. That alone makes the article highly suspect, and I can find precisely zero references to a "Battle of Berbera" elsewhere. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 07:36, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Struck following further explanation regarding the principal source below. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 21:17, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as hoax and WP:SALT. No RS this happened. Mztourist (talk) 09:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I will provide the reasons below for why my article is accurate.

It's all nicely decorated, but it's a fantasy. The key work cited (James Marshall's Royal Naval Biography) is 434 pages in extent - there is no page 436 and 437. Lowe's 'History of the Indian Navy' does, however, mention an action taken at Berbera in February: 'Berbera was burnt after a skirmish'. There is no history that mentions a 'Battle of Berbera' and no evidence given in the page that any historian has ever conferred the title 'Battle' on this minor incident.

Patently false, here is the cited text which is 456 pages long! You've just tried to discredit the entire article based off that. I implore you to read those pages where the events are described. You can even find John Bremer's biography on wiki source.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Royal_Naval_Biography_Or_Memoirs_of_the/8ThEAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=burburra

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Royal_Naval_Biography/Bremer,_James_John_Gordon

David Laitin, a cited source, does not even bother to mention the bombardment, let alone refer to this incident as the 'Battle of Berbera'.

Regarding Laitin he was the authority on the settlement money that's why I used him since it covers the rest of that sentence. As for the bombardment I forgot to add Richard Burton's First Footsteps in East Africa. He credits the Elphinstone commanded by Capt. Greer that did exactly as I claimed on page xxxii.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/First_Footsteps_in_East_Africa_Or_An_Exp/nMlyAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=berberah+fire+on+shore+1825&pg=PR32&printsec=frontcover

If it does not constitute a 'battle' as claimed then it should be renamed to Berbera Punitive Expedition, the events laid out in the Background, British Arrival, Battle, and Aftermath sections all align with the sources in the article and this Burton one I've displayed now that should assure you about the 1825 bombardment.

Gerald Sandford Graham's 1967 book summarizes what I am trying to detail in the article. Great Britain in the Indian Ocean A Study of Maritime Enterprise 1810-1850 pg. 302

In 1827 a small squadron under Sir Gordon Bremer had attacked and blockaded Berbera.

The only thing you're hinging to delete the entire page off of is the word 'Battle'. The chronology is 100% accurate and your unfamiliarity with the content in the key source is disappointing, despite you claiming otherwise with the page length. I also emplore @Mztourist: and @Firefly: to review this evidence and reconsider their votes. WanderingGeeljire (talk) 11:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not a battle, but a blockade. Some part of Berbera was burnt but its unclear what and by whom. My !vote stands. Mztourist (talk) 11:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the chronology provided on the page inaccurate?? How was this unclear, your what and whom regarding the fires are answered. There were lives lost as British soldiers landed and forcefully occupied the town. The blockade had already been implemented from 1825 this was the engagement to gain restitution for the 1825 losses in life and property of Captain Lingard.WanderingGeeljire (talk) 12:49, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Upon its coming to anchor the natives set fire to the town in several places and commenced a general plunder

Read this page CLXV shows this and much more the 2nd link is a clip of what I am trying to display to you

https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_Quarterly_Oriental_Magazine_Review_a/jSgJAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

https://books.google.ca/books/content?id=jSgJAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PR165&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U13SAgVtEpCWTxOnG1roQPZXZVapg&ci=85%2C662%2C397%2C879&edge=0

Keep but rename -- This gives the appearance of being a well-researched article. However, rename to ~~Bombardment of Berbera~~. This is clearly an example of gunboat diplomacy, where the gunboat had the overwhelming advantage. Even the opening of bombardment was in some cases enough to result in capitulation, which seems to have been the result in this case. One such case is claimed to be the shortest war in history. I fear that some such articles are driven by the desire to use a Battlebox, even where that is not wholly appropriate. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:35, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See, that's the problem: "This gives the appearance of being a well-researched article." but it's not. It's entirely OR. There is NO documented historical reference to a 'Battle of Berbera'. None. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 17:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bringing Burton as a source to the table is also interesting - he was 6 years old in 1827. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 18:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your input Peterkingiron, the sources I've shown indicate British troops deploying on shore and killing several Somalis and losing 1 Royal Marine after Somalis started burning the town. I would suggest 'Berbera Punitive Expedition' since the goal of their arrival in Berbera was to secure restitution for a prior massacre in 1825.

As for Alexandermcnabb if we ignore the term Battle, what do you deem OR about this article?? Are the events described false and fabricated? You claimed certain pages (which are the ones that are relied on for the key events) didn't exist in the main book. I have proved that the pages do indeed exist, so I would please ask that you read them since your assertion of fabrication hinges on that.

Regarding Richard Burton of course he's a credible source he was an officer, he literally provided a background of British mapping and trips in the region and cites several prior explorers and voyages which can be found in the preface section of his text. Keeping in mind my wording of this detail of an 1825 bombardment means that I am not definitively stating this happened despite me being able to do so given the quality of the source. Burton met and stayed with Haji Sharmarke Ali Saleh who was the man that intervened when that 1825 massacre happened. He's very much an authoritative individual on the topic. Thanks WanderingGeeljire (talk) 18:59, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In response the Royal Navy enforced a blockade and some accounts narrate an immediate bombardment of the city.

Keep Marshall's book has an addendum on page 436 regarding James John Gordon Bremer. It details an event in which Bremer blockaded Berbera, fired on several ships, parts of the town were set on fire (Bremer, via Marshall, claims the locals set the fires), Bremer landed troops, conflict ensued, British marines captured the city. Is there some reason to doubt Marshall? To doubt Bremer's account published in Marshall? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the other side viewed it differently, sure, but we'd need some RS to contradict Marshall.

I must say, this is one of the strangest AfDs that I have ever seen. We have an official history that mentions the event, but some editors want to ignore it because, apparently, some editions have different page numbers? Arguing over the difference between a battle, skirmish, or blockade? Is there something that I'm missing here? Because I'm having difficulty seeing how this AfD was even brought, and the nominator should have withdrawn it once it was clear that he'd made a mistake regarding the Marshall source. Hyperion35 (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you this is what I've been trying to demonstrate in defense on the AfD page WanderingGeeljire (talk) 20:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per above. It is unclear why this AfD has been filed. The article cites reliable sources to describe a notable event. I fail to see how it breaches any Wikipedia guidelines; the existence of editions of a source with different page numbers is no grounds for deletion. If naming of the article is the issue then the place for that discussion is on the article's talk page and not AfD. --Kzl55 (talk) 11:33, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(varying vote above) Rename to Berbera Punitive Expedition. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:03, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per above. This article is well researched, well referenced and cites reliable sources. It describes a notable event. Just because there are different editions of the source with different page numbers doesn't mean the whole article needs to be deleted. I do not see the purpose of this AfD. Dabaqabad (talk) 14:29, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.