Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Portuguese throne

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Tone 13:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Line of succession to the former Portuguese throne[edit]

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This throne has been defunct since 1910. WP:DEL-REASON 6: Articles that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms, original theories and conclusions, and articles that are themselves hoaxes (but not articles describing notable hoaxes). It is impossible to attribute the current line of succession to this throne to WP:RELIABLE sources, because there is no current line of succession, because monarchy doesn't exist anymore. See also WP:NOTGENEALOGY. There are also WP:BLP concerns about the people who are listed here.

So basically, the same reasons as the previous 25 lines of successions to defunct thrones that have been deleted recently (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25). TompaDompa (talk) 12:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. TompaDompa (talk) 12:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. TompaDompa (talk) 12:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Portugal-related deletion discussions. TompaDompa (talk) 12:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep this article has a place in wikipedia. The study of former monarchies and their lines of succession is not something that should just be taken off Wiki because those thrones no longer exist. The portuguese monarchy existed for nearly a thousand years, its mark on Portugal is incalculable and even if a monarch no longer reigns, the house of braganza maintains notability and notoriety in portuguese society and culture. There are plenty of reputable sources relating to the line of succession. Fully against deletion. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:09, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about the historical impact of the Braganza family, and they and their individual members may well remain notable, but there is no current line of succession because there is no crown to be in order to succeed to. Were this to change, it would be the rules established at that time that would determine the order of succession, which would not necessarily be the same as the prior rules (male-preference primogeniture has been largely abandoned in extant European monarchies, as are the restrictions pertaining to morganatic marriage). If this is presupposed on such a reestablishment, then it is WP:CRYSTAL, otherwise, it is counterfactual. Agricolae (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per nom. Without an existing legal framework, presenting what the line of succession would be based on no-longer operative rules as if the monarchy never fell is alternative history. Agricolae (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Even though there haven't been a monarchy in Portugal for 110 years, the former ruling family still exists.

The idea stated in the nomination that there can't be a line of succession, when there isn't an existing monarchy is more or less bogus. It's a private and so far unsourced opinion.

There will in by far the most cases always be a line of succession to a monarchial institution, if that institution was based on the principle of inheriting the tile, unless the family in question has run out of heirs. The assumption that the line of succession to a former throne dosen't exist any more is pretty much an (unsourced) opinion, a private opinion not based in any international rules or resolutions. I can't think of a UN-resolution that mentions anyting about that the line of succession to defunct thrones dosen't exist any more?

We do actually have a number of cases, where referendums have been held about the question whether an abolished monarchy should be restored. If we put the 1947 Spanish referendum aside, because it didn't involve reinstating an actual monarch in the job, then there are at least four known examples of such referendums: 1935 Greek monarchy referendum, 1953 Maldivian constitutional referendum, 1993 Brazilian constitutional referendum & 1997 Albanian monarchy referendum. These referendums would have been meaningless, if the nations where they took place didn't think a) there is actually a former royal family, we can put back on the throne and b) there is a line of succession in that family that determins, who will become monarch and who will become first, second, third and so forth in the line of succession if we the people/nation decides to bring back the monarchy to our country.

I didn't get around having classes in law at university, but I'm pretty confident, that most lawyers would say, that it is/was the latest law of succession from before the monarchy was abolished, that defines the line of succession in that particular royal/princely family. Isn't that just a statement on my behalf? Perhaps, but if we take a look at the historical examples it is evident, that when a republic is abolished and a former monarchy comes into existence once more, then the restored monarchies have had no need for defining who would be the monarch and who would be the heirs in the line of succession once more, they simply followed the laws or rules from the last time, the monarchy had been in function. The examples of this, that I can think of is:

Britain (England and Scotland) 1660

Kingdom of France 1814

French Empire 1852 (though Napoleon III changed the law of succession immediately after he had acceded the throne)

Spain 1874

Greece 1935

Maldives 1953

Of course a restored monarchy can make the choise, that they will follow a new set of rules conserning succession to the throne, but in these cases it's a deliberate choise in the situation. The examples could be Hungary (1920), Spain (1947/1975) and Cambodia (1993).

So the historical evidence strongly points to the conclussion, that lines of successions is maintained within a royal/princely family, even if the family no longer functions as reigning family within an existing independent monarchy.

Of course there will be cases, where a line of succession can't be established - Hungary would make such an example, since the latest Hungarian monarchy (1920-1946) didn't recognice anyone as eligible for being the monarch of the country, and therefore the country didn't have and didn't recognice (while still a monarchy) a particular line of succession.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleryhlolsson (talk • contribs) 15:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The rules that governed succession to existing monarchies have changed (in some monarchies repeatedly), and there is no reason were Portugal to reestablish a monarchy they would be bound by rules from the early 1900s. Yes, there could hypothetically be a referendum that installed the person legitimists consider to be the heir to the former monarchy as king, but there could just as well be referenda that choose someone other than that legitimate heir. When Spain restored a monarchy in 1975, the person chosen was not the person next in line based on the prior rules of succession. Keeping this page under the supposition that the a country hypothetically restoring a monarchy at some point in the future is in any way bound by the rules that existed more than 100 years ago is simply groundless and subjective. Agricolae (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That there is no line of succession when there is no monarchy isn't an opinion, it's what there being no monarchy means. This is easily demonstrated by asking a simple question: Who succeeded Manuel II of Portugal as King of Portugal when he died in 1932? That's right, nobody did. That's all there is to it. And you also have the WP:BURDEN of proof backwards: All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. You're the one arguing for the inclusion of material, so you're the one who needs to demonstrate that the line of succession to the defunct throne still exists. Which you can't, because it doesn't.

Your own line of reasoning here acknowledges that this is all hypothetical. In other words, it's speculative, alternative history – real-life fan fiction, if you will. However, Wikipedia is WP:NOTSPECULATION. TompaDompa (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per nom and above comment. Balle010 (talk) 15:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Royalist pretensions in Portugal are not documented by independent reliable sources sufficiently enough that the concept of a "current line of succession" is both verifiable and notable. There would need to be specific third-party news coverage and (ideally) journal articles on a coherent royalist movement with a published line of succession for this to be remotely encyclopedic. JoelleJay (talk) 19:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per nom, this is absurd fantasy.Smeat75 (talk) 20:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. per nom. Donaldd23 (talk)
Delete The throne has been defunct for over 100 years. It died before WWI. It was not brought back with the end of facsism or any other change. We have an article on the house of Braganza that can say anything needed to be said about the members for the last century. It is time to drag Wikipedia kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and to stop writing it as a wrote of the restorationist legitimacy established in the 1815 Peace Treaty. That is the only way to describe these truly absurd articles that pretend thrones that have been defunt over a century have any meaning at present.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:33, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rename -- Pretenders to the throne of Portugal. Alternatively merge to House of Braganza (leaving a redirect). Who are descendants of former royal families is worth having in WP. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:57, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete non notable, defunt Royal Family --Devokewater (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this is fundamentally speculation, either by us or on the part of whatever source we cite, because in the unlikely event that Portugal decided to restore their monarchy there is no guarantee they would adopt the same rules of succession. There seems to be a dispute about who the rightful successor is anyway. Hut 8.5 10:11, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.