Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/City region (United Kingdom)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Combined authority. ‑Scottywong | [talk] || 19:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

City region (United Kingdom)[edit]

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There are city deals, there are combined authorities, and there are mayors of combined authorities (the later two provided for by legislation, but there is no such thing as a "city region" in the UK. The whole article is a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the legislation and policy in England. Dan100 (Talk) 10:50, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 11:47, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 11:47, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The term "city region" was used before combined authorities existed, and the most well known is probably Liverpool City Region, as the name is now used for a combined authority, but other examples include Leeds City Region and Manchester City Region. The current article is misleading. Peter James (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep The claim that there's "no such thing" is clearly false. For example, see Liverpool City Region to move into 'very high' local COVID Alert Level; City Region Deals; Sheffield City Region – Who we are. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:09, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It seems this should be merged to Combined authority since these appear to cover the same topic with the same entities: the table in this article uses combined authority as the header and links directly to combined authority articles. West Midlands Combined Authority is in the city region article yet is not a city region! Sheffield City Region redirects to Sheffield City Region Combined Authority and Bristol City Region to West of England Combined Authority; Tees Valley and Tees Valley Combined Authority have identical subjects, the former focusing on the physical area and the latter on the government: perhaps they should be merged too. Reywas92^Talk 19:14, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the content is more relevant to combined authority, but to merge would be more misleading than the existing article. Some combined authorities are also city regions (or use "city region" in their name), but others are not. Leeds City Region is not a combined authority, and Manchester City Region includes districts that are not part of the combined authority. Peter James (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The term appears to be informal and not official. Here's the reference used to support Teesside being a "City region" [1]. The document does not include the words "City" or "region". Arcturus (talk) 11:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: to find consensus
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Andrew nyr (talk, contribs) 05:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Informal term, which has no legal meaning or status. The fact that documents can be found that use this informal term doesn't prove it has an official status. The attempts to define the term within the article are uncited, so it appears the creators/editors of the article have made up a definition themselves, rather than baseing it on independent, reliable, authoritative sources.94.139.8.203 (talk) 14:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep–History: Let me start with 1974. UK & EU (with UK just entering EU) make regions to replace historic countys. These where there or thereabouts equally divided with industry and expansion of places in mind.

The UK adapted to ever-growing places without any set area names until 1997, with ceremonial counties. This meant the places could get back to being grouped in certain ways.

The ties from industry and connections to other nearby places didn’t change so city regions were brought in, not exactly simply with terminology and timing all over the place but it is setting in now. This phasing in started first in some ways after the 2011 census then really occurring when the UK voted to leave the EU in 2016.

Defining: Historic counties and regions are based off heritage and statistics like distance to other places and shared cultures.

Shire county (ceremonial) and city region (non-ceremonial) are based off needing a central body and place to operate economies and industry. Both have boroughs (districts/ authorities), have mayors and cover a main place with outliers. Shire counties border by rivers (give or take the odd bit because of governance) and city regions are around rivers.

A conurbation is basically a bigger city.

So, all in all, a region and county are synonymous in theory but serve differing functions when put to use.

Terminology: I would say each term has an equal and opposite term now:

Smaller	Bigger
Authority	District
Borough	Council
Ceremonial	Non-ceremonial
Non-metropolitan	Metropolitan
City	Metropolis
County	Former-Kingdom
Historic	Modern
Shire	County
Settlement	Conurbation
Unitary	Combined
Village	Town

Conclusion: Most things need two wheels to be stable while moving about (a unicycle is a case of it able to work enough with one but you don’t see that many about do you) and this is a way most things are done in government to appease both ends. Thanks if you read all of what I put down and sorry if this is oddly formatted and late.user:Chocolateediter🍫(talk) 12:24, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Given the further analysis trying a third relist to see if consensus can be found.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:05, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete seems to be a mostly OR uncited informal term that doesn't have any legal basis. I'm probably more on the side of merge since it does have some reference and is used, although not enough to make a legitimate thing for an article IMO, but I couldn't come up with a good merge target. If someone wants to come up with one and ping me though I'll change my vote. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Book Looking again at this, I find a substantial and scholarly book on the subject: The City Region in Western Europe. Q.E.D. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (Leaning Delete or possible Merge): I am glad it was extended as I just saw it. To state, "there is no such thing as a "city region" in the UK" is not accurate. More likely an informal term and possibly too soon as many Metro-mayor elections were put off because COVID19. From what I have read (October 2020) there are battles that could result in Metro-Mayor defunding.

I have read "The Liverpool city region mayor" (passing mention), An elected mayor and the Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA), English devolution: combined authorities and metro mayors, with content concerning "Liverpool City Region", "Sheffield City Region", "Liverpool City Region" and maybe others, but they all seem tied to the several times mentioned combined authority.

What we have here would actually be, "does this topic deserve a stand alone article?". As written, the article sucks because it does not actually give anything definitive. I see it as being written in a form similar to the wheel scenario (opinioned with all due respect) above.

There are many references to the "term" but City region:

1)- is not a defined geographical area.
2)- is not a defined political area.

What is it? In a broad sense it appears to be a coalition of certain entities referred to by the Nom as Combined authority. The premise for de-centralization of powers in the UK, known as "Devolution", set the stage for establishment for a more localized power structure that resulted in the creation of combined authorities. The coalitions can vary but from what I see now it appears to be an expansion and variations of the above combined authority. If "City region" is as it appears it is largely closely related to if not synonymous with "combined authority" so should be (I am still looking) either deleted or possibly merged to the appropriate article. Otr500 (talk) 23:52, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment According to Britannica its just another word for extensive urban sprawl. Maybe an article along those lines would be a good merge target. I feel like it should at least be mentioned somewhere. Adamant1 (talk) 00:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: There are a number of ways the term came about. Look at Community Infrastructure Levy Planning gain along with others in the "See also" section, Local Government Act 2000, the Localism Act 2011, and the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act 2016 . A city region is part of a combined authority that covers an agreed upon area that can vary in area and participants. A definition of the "extensive urban sprawl" concept would be the same as for urban sprawl: "the uncontrolled expansion of urban areas", which does not fit with a planned concept for community organizations locally governing a certain "combined area". That would align more with a conurbation also referred to as urban agglomeration. Yes, it should probably be "mentioned somewhere" and from what I am seeing, if that is not at "City region" then "Combined authority" --or deleted. Otr500 (talk) 05:02, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think Combined authority is probably the best bet. City region is badly sourced and will probably get an AfD eventually its self. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Combined authority, based on the definition given in the lead (which is consistent with the rest of the article). That is, this article is talking about the topic of "combined authorities with directly elected mayors", so should be at "combined authority". The fatal flaw undermining this as a "city region" article is that there is no evidence for the definition given. In fact, there are counterexamples suggesting the definition is false: North of Tyne Combined Authority does not possess the title "city region", and is almost never referred to as such, while Leeds City Region exists but has no combined authority covering its entire extent (and the combined authority covering Leeds itself currently has no directly elected mayor).

For the record, the book Andrew Davidson suggests above would be a fine source for City region as a topic, but does not provide a source for what this article is supposed to be about—I can't look in it, but the book was published in 1998, whereas the first combined authority came into existence in 2011. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 21:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS since the re-listing was based on the further analysis from Chocolateediter but nobody's commented on that yet: I'm really confused by it, tbh, and I'm not really sure how it relates to the topic at hand. But the table doesn't make sense to me, unless I'm misunderstanding it: in no sense is a district "bigger than" an authority (the district of Craven has a local authority, so they're the same size), nor a borough "smaller than" a council (the Borough of Harrogate has a council, so they're the same size). Broadly speaking, "district" is a term used for any lower-tier local authority (including unitary authorities) in England, and "borough" is an honorary status given to some districts (plus used in a different sense for the London boroughs). YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 21:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ Redirect: (changed vote, see below) The term is informal and not official, there is no legal or agreed upon definition, I believe WP:SYNTH is a concern, and there are not sources showing GNG. // Timothy :: talk 04:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment see my comment below regarding redirect. // Timothy :: talk 13:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The analysis of UK regional groupings is ... Well .. different to how I would describe them and all those words fail to address how the city region is a distinct entity. Instead the UK reality is a mess of badly defined and inconsistent regional grouping that includes everything except city regions. Spartaz ^Humbug! 09:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Combined authority, on revisiting this. My views above still stand, but when I look more closely there really isn't any useful content to merge. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 12:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I did consider a redirect to Combined authority, but because this is used informally, I couldn't determine if it was an appropriate redirect. Because it seems the use is not consistent, I didn't opt for redirect. I would support redirect if there is a consensus that this is appropriate, with greater due weight given to local editors. // Timothy :: talk 13:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's the most plausible thing someone would be looking for when searching for "city region"; the other possibility would be Local enterprise partnership (like Leeds City Region, whose website is owned by the Leeds LEP). I'd suggest a "'City region' redirects here" hatnote on whatever target was chosen. On the other hand, I don't think straight deletion would be the end of the world either. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 13:55, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to the target already specified. Since it seems like the best option. Although, I'd be fine with it being deleted also. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.