User talk:Saforrest

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Talk archives: 123

My User Name[edit]

Hi, Saforrest. Thanks for your message. I love Wikipedia and attempting to make it better. My name actually happens to be "Gerard Kennedy" so that's why I chose my name. Nevertheless, if you think it's confusing, changing it would be fine by me. "GerryK" would be my preference. GerardKennedy

Removing empty sections[edit]

Hi, you removed empty sections from the David Currie article. As you may have noticed, the article is quite new. The section headings are like "scaffolding" or framework, to encourage other editors to add material. Instead of removing framework, perhaps we could put "To be added". Is there a Wikipedia policy on this? Of course, the "ignore all rules if it helps you to write a better Wiki article" rule would suggest that having "framework" cues in the early months of an article's existence would be a good idea. Just some ideasNazamo 01:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johnathan Madden: Spelling[edit]

The name is actually spelled Johnathan, and I wrote a stub article called Johnathan Madden yesterday. Maybe the thing to do is to add the content from Johnathon Madden to Johnathan Madden and then propose Johnathon Madden for deletion. --Rrburke 22:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite right -- Johnathon. Odd. So why were they identifying him as "Johnathan" prior to the adult sentencing and the end of the publication ban? I think what I'll do is see if there's anything worth migrating from the stub and then convert it to a redirect. --Rrburke 23:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I briefly thought the spelling Johnathon might've been judged sufficiently distinctive that it would've made him identifiable and so was included in the publication ban. Seemed like a good theory. Not true: I googled the name with that spelling and got 1,000,000 hits. Who knew? And like you, I had never even encountered the spelling Johnathan.
It seems likely to me there's more to it than a misspelling: whoever wrote the CBC.ca piece you linked to had obviously picked up on it, and the reporters who sat in the courtroom day after day must have seen the boy's name written any number of times, and it's hard to imagine that none of them would've picked up on the unusual spelling -- unless it was consistently misspelled in court documents.
Creepy side note: when I went to look at my copy of today's Globe after I read your message, I also had a look at the pictures and realized I recognized the mother -- from minor league hockey or baseball, I think, though I can't quite place her. Dawes Road is a little east of me.
So you're in Hamilton? I was born at St. Joe's. --Rrburke 00:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"On coincidences..." Gets weirder: I used to live on Old Ancaster Rd in Dundas. --Rrburke 03:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

shiny buttons?[edit]

Hi Saforrest, I ran across your name going through some of the old Rwanda pages and wandered by. I saw your statement that you're less article centered these days and wonder if you think getting the admin tools would be useful. If so, I'd be happy to nominate. Cheers, BanyanTree 01:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Saforrest. I was able to track down information concerning the original Stoddart edition (including ISBN) through Abebooks [1], a site for used and out of print books. The Stoddart edition was a hardcover, while the M&S edition, which appeared two years later, was a paperback. I'm not familar with the latter, so don't know whether there were any revisions. Stoddart was part of General Publishing, a large coimpany that went belly-up about four years ago. I'm afraid I am guilty of having removed the mention of the book under "Reference" - but only because I wasn't aware of any article on a book that cites the same book as a reference. I've taken the liberty of changing the section head to "Editions" - something I've seen in other articles on books. Regards, Victoriagirl 06:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CUPE[edit]

Hi Saforrest. I read your comments on the CUPE talk page - an additional view/edit is a very good idea. I like you Category:CUPE, but do think it should be Category:Canadian Union of Public Employees? The acronym isn't very self-evident if you're outside of Canada. Cheers.--Bookandcoffee 17:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The cat's only a couple hours old. I'm just going to create Category:Canadian Union of Public Employees and
{{db|created in error - expanded acronym with {{cat|Canadian Union of Public Employees}}}}
the old cat myself! :) No one's really concerned, and it'll save wandering through the WP:CFD.--Bookandcoffee 18:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Boomer - Athena[edit]

It may get confusing but any early mention here of Sharon Valarii - (aka Boomer - aka Athena - aka Number Eight) - prior to third season when she took yet another name - should remain as Boomer since that's what she was called in earlier developments of the show. Please leave them as such, thanks. Cyberia23 03:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I'll just change it to Sharon since Caprica-Boomer went by that name because thats what Helo called her. It's really confusing to write about her because she has so many aliases. Cyberia23 03:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, why did you use such a complex link [[Sharon_Valerii#Sharon_.22Athena.22_Agathon_.28n.C3.A9e_Valerii.29|Number Eight]] when [[Number Eight (Battlestar Galactica)]] would have sufficed? Cyberia23 03:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, never mind about the later part - I see what you did there. It just looked weird. Cyberia23 03:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed your name in the history, this article could really use some help. Alan.ca 06:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to your question on my talk page. I prefer to have the discussion there. Alan.ca 08:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Lucien Quelet[edit]

It doesnt have to have Charles Darwin anywhere - the mention of evolution infers Charles Darwin because evolution refers to his theory. So I can say that and be right, even if it doesnt say that in the text. But I see your point. We hsall leave it out for the moment, and try to find a more stable interpretation. Thanks, —ÅñôñÿMôús Dîššíd3nt 01:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Howard_pawley.jpg[edit]

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Image tagging for Image:Paulmartinsr.jpg[edit]

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John Kerr[edit]

Please check out my comment at Talk:John_Kerr. Cheers Bjenks 03:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Saforrest, I do research as an archivist often political nature, and changed a number of important factual errors on Payne's entry, after checking my own facts. May I suggest you retain the corrected version inserted by me after research, since the original contains important errors. Potentially libelous errors. curious that you reverted all the corrections. Archiviste

Fair use disputed for Image:Blackwater Scahill.jpg[edit]

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TTC token image[edit]

I'm glad to see an image of the current TTC token in Wikipedia, but the one you've supplied is puzzling: it looks as though the whole thing is brass, when of course the center is actually aluminum or some similar-colored metal. Would it be possible for you to photograph it again while avoiding the reflection or color distortion or whatever it was that made that happen?

(If you're going to reply, please do it here on your page; I am not the only person who has contributed to Wikipedia from this IP address. If you can't improve the image, so be it.) --207.176.159.90 00:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi 207.176.159.90: I agree with your comments about the misleading colours in the photo. have uploaded a new image taken under different lighting conditions to commons:Image:Toronto_Transit_Commission_Token-2007.jpg, which I believe fixes the problem. Cheers, --Saforrest 19:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, much better. --207.176.159.90 00:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Commons[edit]

  • What is it and how do I upload all of my Hamilton images to it? Nhl4hamilton 21:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for your response regarding Commons. I wish someone had explained that to me cause then I would have had all of my images uploaded to Commons a long time ago and also when I had more free time at my disposal. One more question though. Someone has already uploaded one of my images to Commons, the one of the Copps Coliseum on York Boulevard and they didn't need me to upload it to Commons. Some of the images I no longer have saved on my hard drive so would I be able to upload the images straight from my Gallery page here on wikipedia to Commons? Hamilton Photo Gallery, My Contributions Nhl4hamilton 08:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • No problem. I still have a few more Hamilton photos to upload to wikicommons. I'm about halfway through. Plus there are some new ones as well that I will be uploading there that I haven't yet uploaded to wikipedia. Nhl4hamilton 00:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Replaceable fair use Image:Peter Mansbridge.jpg[edit]

Replaceable fair use
Replaceable fair use

Thanks for uploading Image:Peter Mansbridge.jpg. I noticed the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

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fyi[edit]

There is a relatively new contributor, working his of her way through all the GWOT articles, (1) suggesting a lot of it isn't "notable", (2) removing links, removing material he or she thinks isn't referenced, (3) insisting on a burdensome amount of references. (He or she has demanded references to prove Omar Khadr wasn't housed in Camp Iguana, for instance.)

You started the Zaynab Khadr article, so you might be interested in this challenge to its notability.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 04:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Zaynab Khadr Article[edit]

Hi - thanks for your thoughts on the Zaynab Khadr article. I should have been more specific when I placed that notability tag on the article, but I made the points that led to me placing that tag on the article on the talk page. Please let me know what you think! BWH76 (talk) 23:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar[edit]

The Photographer's Barnstar
I'm honoured to present Saforrest with this Photographer's Barnstar for his amazing photo contributions with the Hamilton, Ontario-related articles!  Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat  12:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Saforrest

I put the picture you took of the engineering building on the McMaster University Engineering article. Hope you don't mind. If not, I can remove it. Thanks 219.77.172.234 (talk) 07:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of Kanman Wong[edit]

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Fair use rationale for Image:Hostages-Kember-Sooden.jpg[edit]

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Count Pavel Ignatiev[edit]

Hello! Emperors, empresses, kings and queens do not have regnal titles in their article titles, but those below the rank of king do (Albert II, Prince of Monaco, Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, etc). As for Isaac Newton, titles of knighthood are not included in the article title. You are right, however - the conventions do not address Russian nobility directly. Yet, titles of most (if not all) articles about European nobility are consistent with the conventions: e.g. Landgravine Amalie of Hesse-Darmstadt (nobility, not royalty, and minor member of the house of Hesse-Darmstadt); Louis VI, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (nobility, but head of the house of Hesse-Darmstadt); Count Ingolf of Rosenborg (former royalty); Baroness Mary Vetsera, etc.

My goal was to make articles about Russian nobility consistent with other articles about other European nobility. If you object to the moves, I won't insist. Surtsicna (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File source problem with File:Uwilingiyimana.jpg[edit]

File Copyright problem
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AfD nomination of Jerry Bergman[edit]

An article that you have been involved in editing, Jerry Bergman, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jerry Bergman. Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adoption Categories[edit]

I am not sure whether I discussed this with you or someone else, howeever, the explanation is very simple: there is more in common between adoption issues across countries than there is within them. Thus, creating country-specific categories - while compelling for patriots uneducated in the issues - does nothing for the value of an encyclopedia. Moreover, over categorization makes the job harder for those of us who are trying to maintain articles. Sorry about the half-populated categories. It talks a lot of time to put things in order and we are almost done. Hope this explanation helps.Tobit2 (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Seven Daughters of Eve - failed reference[edit]

Reference 4 in this article links to a 404 notice (the article doesn't exist) Would the following link suit your purpose? http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060609f3.html Apuldram (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced BLPs[edit]

Hello Saforrest! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 4 of the articles that you created are tagged as Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring these articles up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 941 article backlog. Once the articles are adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the list:

  1. Princess Margarita of Baden - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL
  2. Wayne Marston - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL
  3. Edward Greenspan - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL
  4. France Chrétien Desmarais - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A problem with the term "uterine ancestry"[edit]

Hi Saforrest, Can we go back more than 5 years to 4Sep04 to try to get to the bottom of a problem that has recently arisen concerning the WP article Matrilineality, as follows?

First, the problem is that when one enters the word uterine in the Wikipedia search box, one obtains a very erroneous result, namely the following Disambiguation page:

The word uterine can refer to different meanings:

   * relating to or near the uterus or womb
   * having the same mother, but different fathers, see matrilineality

Disambig gray.svg


In this Matrilineality article's History page, I learned that you inserted the following sentence in the article, on 4Sep04:

"The uterine ancestry of an individual is a person's pure female ancestry, i.e. a matriline leading from a female ancestor to that individual."


Your inserted sentence now appears as my sentence below:

"One's matriline is thus one's pure female ancestry, and is also sometimes called one's uterine ancestry."

You and I can agree, I assume, that the above Disambiguation page is seriously in error. Can we also agree to simply drop all mention of "uterine ancestry" from this Matrilineality article? Or can you provide some evidence to support either my sentence or your sentence? I myself have not been able to find any other use of the term "uterine ancestry" or any other support for either sentence.

If you agree, I'll remove the last half of my sentence above from this article ––(and then I should cause the erroneous Disambiguation page to be removed from WP too, right?) Please reply on my talk page, rather than on yours. Thank you very much for whatever time and trouble this costs you –– to help WP readers... For7thGen (talk) 19:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Saforrest: It was (and is) a pleasure to receive and read your reply, on my own Talk page. From your reply I've learned more about uterine and agnatic pedigrees, and from your two sources. I've changed Matrilineality to reflect what I learned. Please feel free to redo it, you certainly have my blessing. I do feel that it is now better than it was, for the WP reader. You can see that I gave "uterine ancestry" its own short paragraph, relocated toward the bottom of the Intro.
This interaction with you also stimulated me to straighten out my inaccurate use of the word Matriline, in the Matriname section of the article (my improved wording does not need Matriline). So I wish others would make more contributions in this new section of mine, not less.
Finally, you made it very easy for me to rectify the WP page Uterine. Except for your suggestion above, I would not have thought to look at the History of the page, from which I learned that I really could just edit it back to a Redirect page. Obviously I could write a message on JoannaB's Talk page but I don't think it's needed.
My heartfelt thanks to you, For7thGen (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated Category:HIV/AIDS in Canada (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for renaming to Category:HIV and AIDS in Canada (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated Category:HIV/AIDS in South Africa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for renaming to Category:HIV and AIDS in South Africa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated Category:HIV/AIDS in Uganda (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for renaming to Category:HIV and AIDS in Uganda (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 04:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated Category:HIV/AIDS in the United States (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for renaming to Category:HIV and AIDS in the United States (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 04:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for File:Bob Edmonds.jpg[edit]

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You are now a Reviewer[edit]

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Oligarhy listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Oligarhy. Since you had some involvement with the Oligarhy redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). Bridgeplayer (talk) 21:42, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Original research on Elie Wiesel[edit]

You contributed recently to the discussion about Mr. Wiesel's tattoo and subjective edits. A single user continues to add his original research about the tattoo. Could you return to the article on Elie Wiesel and also the discussion? The person has only ever edited the Elie Wiesel article here at Wikipedia, specifically on the tattoo, and keeps making his original research claims and uses a heavily doctored and biased edit from a video on YouTube as his sole evidence. It would help if you re-expressed your opinion. Thanks. 71.175.4.207 (talk) 17:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning of "province"[edit]

Hi. Sorry I haven't replied earlier, I was kind of busy on fr:, with one of my creations becoming a WP milestone. Anyway, Thanks for the latin lesson :) I patrol Quebec politicians pages once in a while and articles like Gilles Duceppe and Pauline Marois regularly get this kind of "fly by night" editing, I rv'ed last night. As it stands, René Lévesque is not so bad, as far as neutrality is concerned, and I hope it will stay that way. Have a nice weekend. Bouchecl (talk) 00:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Autopatrolled[edit]

Hello, this is just to let you know that I have granted you the "autopatrolled" permission. This won't affect your editing, it just automatically marks any page you create as patrolled, benefiting new page patrollers. Please remember:

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If you have any questions about the permission, don't hesitate to ask. Otherwise, happy editing!HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:16, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Queen Street East for deletion[edit]

The article Queen Street East is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queen Street East until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

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Nomination of Khadr family for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Khadr family is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khadr family until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. IQinn (talk) 09:27, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, i nominated Khadr family by mistake. TW is helpful but dangerous. :) That is the related article i was nominating Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maha el-Samnah. IQinn (talk) 09:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Mathieu Ravignat[edit]

The DYK project (nominate) 12:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you, for your comments regarding the quality of my work improving the article Santorum (sexual neologism). Much appreciated. ;) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 18:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article GiNaC has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

non-notable software. no independent references.

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Toronto[edit]

Do you come from Toronto ? Fête (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quebec accent[edit]

Do you pronounced "fight" for the word fête ? Fête (talk) 10:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quebecers pronounce "fight". Fête (talk) 18:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te69JK28DDo please. Fête (talk) 00:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In standard Quebec French, it's pronounced "fet" and in informal Quebec French, it's pronounced "fight". Fête (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

audio[edit]

Can you record the pronunciation of the word "garage" in the audio please ? Fête (talk) 10:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

tête[edit]

Quebecers pronounce "tight" for the word tête. Fête (talk) 21:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article James Elwood has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This BLP article is basically entirely negative.

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Perhaps you can help?[edit]

You came up on a user search for a farsi language userspace article..I'm hoping that means you read Farsi, need a bit of help I have a newer editor that has written an article, Rebecca Masterton, right now it doesn't appear like she's relaly notable but she may have sources in Farsi that we can't find. If you do speak Farsi can you contribute to the AFD discussion as to whether this person does indeed pass WP:GNG? Thanks in advance. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

fête[edit]

If you don't believe that Quebeckers pronounce "fight" for the word fête. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30B8WkAEsi8 Fête (talk) 18:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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The article Gadla Henry Mphakanyiswa has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

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The article Harmeet Singh Sooden has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

WP:ONEEVENT

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Punctuation error[edit]

Hello.

Please note that I've corrected the following punctuation error in several things you wrote:

right: Robertson–Wegner graph
wrong: Robertson-Wegner graph

This is codififed in WP:MOS. Similarly, the en-dash rather than the hyphen is used in ranges of years, pages, etc. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:28, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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a favor: de:Lara-Isabelle Rentinck into english[edit]

Good morning from Calabria, I'm writing to say hello and know how you are. In addition to this because I have seen that you do little traditions from German, I was wondering if you would go to work with me every now and then I will come to you to ask if you can translate something for me from German into English and vice versa. In return I will translate what you want in Italian. For now I ask you the courtesy, always if you want to translate into English, the article on this Attice and German model, a famous television series. Just and no more than 10 minutes of your precious time. I hope you can help me. thank you very much.--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 05:45, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Nomination of Pahri language for deletion[edit]

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Avetik Chalabyan article up for deletion[edit]

Hi Saforrest! About 2 years ago I wrote a biography of a living person article [Chalabyan]. The article has been recently marked as up for deletion. Any advice on why this might be happening, how to address it or what to improve would really be appreciated. Obviously, your vote as an experienced editor on Wiki would really go a long way to make sure it's not deleted.

Thanks in advance for your attention to the matter.

Alice Ananian (talk) 14:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Maple Photo[edit]

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The article You're Gonna Miss Me (film) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

non notable film

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jax 0677 (talk) 03:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]