Talk:Charles Redd

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 13:24, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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A close-up portrait photograph of Charles Redd
A close-up portrait photograph of Charles Redd
  • ... that Charles Redd (pictured), a rancher and member of the Utah State Legislature, moved to legalize horse racing and betting in 1925, only to make it illegal again two years later? Source: Arrington, Leonard J. (1995). Utah's audacious stockman, Charlie Redd. Logan, Utah: Utah State University Press. ISBN 0-87421-177-8. OCLC 31515461. pp 128-133

Created by Cjstirlbyu (talk). Self-nominated at 22:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ALT0 hook needs to be cited following the sentence, not just at the end of the paragraph. AGF on the offline source.
  • Interesting: Yes

Image eligibility:

QPQ: No - Not done
Overall: The ALT0 hook is interesting and cited, but the article clearly needs a lot of work. SounderBruce 06:24, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SounderBruce: -- Thanks for the review; I've made some changes to the article to further improve it! I have added more information and corrected the copyright notice on the image page on Wikimedia Commons, and I've added citations immediately following the ALT0 hook, and have further clarified some of the information in that paragraph. I have also added additional citations to the rest of the article and changed some of the language to reflect a more neutral viewpoint. Since this article is within my first five DYK nominations, QPQ is not required. Let me know if any other changes need to be made! Cjstirlbyu (talk)
Well done on the improvements, but three's still some work to be done. The lack of outside perspectives is still an issue and would be bolstered by using coverage from out of the region (where the story of a quick repeal would have garnered some attention), while also looking at more critical commentary of his activities, both contemporary and modern. I don't think the picture fits very well, given it shows Redd long after the time of the bill's passing and repeal. SounderBruce 07:41, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SounderBruce: -- I've added a few more sources from outside of Utah on Redd and the bill's passing and repeal, as well as some more broad commentary on the rest of his life. There isn't a lot of modern commentary on his time in the legislature, given that he was only a member of the Utah House for a few years. I feel that the photo is appropriate for the article, however it's fine if we don't use it for the DYK. Let me know if I can change anything else!
Still has an outstanding tag for lack of viewpoints that I feel is a valid criticism. SounderBruce 08:33, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi SounderBruce, could you elaborate? The person who originally put the "may not include all significant viewpoints" tag on put in the edit summary "sourcing continues to be overwhelmingly reliant on BYU-affiliated publications." The Arrington source that has many citations is published by Utah State University, which is not affiliated with BYU. The Alexander essay collection was published by the BYU university press, and constitutes 7 citations. What viewpoints do you feel are lacking? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:24, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @SounderBruce: Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, the article is fine when it comes to independent viewpoints. I would like to see the citations cleaned up (currently the titles are just the paper name and page number, which is a jumbled mess) before giving final approval, Cjstirlbyu. SounderBruce 06:14, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks SounderBruce. The last name, year, and page number style of citation is one called shortened footnotes style (sfn). It is used on today's featured article, CSS Baltic. It is very helpful for being able to reference the exact page number of a book that is used multiple times as a reference. This page uses sfn style for books and more regular citation templates for items with a URL. For DYK, a certain style of footnote is not required. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, the newspaper citations are the ones that need cleanup. SounderBruce 20:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SounderBruce, I've cleaned up the newspaper citations—let me know if anything else needs to be done before the nomination can go through! Cjstirlbyu (talk) 22:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cjstirlbyu: The article is now in good shape, but upon a second look the hook needs to be shortened. By dropping some of the details, it would flow much better. SounderBruce 09:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ALT0a ... that Utah state representative Charles Redd (pictured) moved to legalize horse racing and betting in 1925, only to make it illegal again two years later?
@SounderBruce: How does this sound? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:28, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ALT0a works for me. SounderBruce 04:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to have to reopen what's already a long discussion, but I don't believe this is in fit state for the main page. I happened to spot-check a random sentence, and found the sources didn't remotely support the content; I then did five more spot-checks of sources I could access, and only one of them was completely okay. I don't know if this is carelessness, too many people working on the article, or sources shoehorned in to address the lack of independent content raised above; but it needs to be fixed. Given the issues I've raised, I would not be comfortable featuring this until someone has done spot-checks and found no issues. Also: the hook is a bit of a problem. Redd didn't make racing illegal; he didn't have that authority. He proposed the bill which made it so, much as he proposed its legalization. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:08, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Vanamonde, I did find some issues with text-source integrity. In the cases you found, the source was further down in the paragraph, but it wasn't clear that it applied to the earlier material. Cjstirlbyu and I went through the page to check for the accuracy of the material and make its sourcing clearer. I think I added a little information like Redd's introduction of crested wheatgrass and being voted one of 29 stockmen of the century by a cattle newspaper. I looked for information on the environmental impact of Redd's ranching, because I'm certain that it has affected the environment in the La Sals, but I haven't found anything that concretely connects Redd's ranching to ecological problems (although general articles on how grazing permits were freely given in Utah's early days and their impact on the ecology exist). As for the hook, how does this sound?
ALT0b ... that Utah state representative Charles Redd (pictured) successfully proposed the legalization of horse racing and betting in 1925, only to successfully propose making it illegal again two years later? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rachel Helps (BYU): Thanks for doing that; I know it can be trick for a student who may be relatively new to Wikipedia. Regardless, though, I would like to see a spotcheck by someone else before passing this myself. I can do one, but it may be a few days before I have the time. Other reviewers can of course step in if they wish. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:51, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any updates on this? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:56, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Vanamonde93: It's been a month. Can you still do a check of this? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:07, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had rather hoped someone else would pick this up, but I didn't mark it as needing a full review, I suppose, which is on me. I have done a few more spotchecks. Material from Westergreen checked out in all respects. Of the other sources I reviewed, two had minor issues; this does not support "Redd remained involved with his alma mater Brigham Young University throughout his adult life", and this does not support "where Moore was living at the time of divorce", but these are relatively minor issues, comparable to what are seen in a standard spotcheck at higher levels. So I am restoring the tick for ALT0b per previous reviews; this is explicitly not a full review. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]


failed verification - comment[edit]

The arrangement of citations in the first paragraph under "utah state legislature" did not make it clear which information came from where. The Arrington bio, on page 125, states: "He had several definite objectives upon first taking office in 1925: getting legislation that would raise the per capita school fund tax in order to benefit rural school districts; reorganizing the way bounty claims were paid by the state; and getting the state to allocate funds for road construction in San Juan county." (p. 125). There are some close paraphrasing issues--I have tried to quickly reword. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arrington's biography[edit]

In checking the sources on the horse-racing paragraph, I found that several sentences and at least one paragraph of Leonard Arrington's chapter on Redd's legislative years were copied from Westergren article. I am, to put it mildly, disappointed. I removed the Arrington references from that paragraph in favor of the Westergren article (which is all the better for verifiability, since Westergren's article is currently available online). Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is an explanation in the back of the book! Apparently Westergren wrote this entire chapter, but he is not credited in the chapter itself (??). Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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