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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Banned Wikipedia User utilizing at least 15 Different IPs to vandalize Wikipedia pages by removing mention of Noktundo

• 136.143.218.177 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 162.221.124.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 216.165.208.92 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 216.165.208.163 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 172.98.156.47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 136.143.217.225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 66.22.174.209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 69.166.119.181 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 136.143.222.154 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 168.91.61.39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 172.98.144.173 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 172.98.151.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 206.176.157.228 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 45.58.94.255 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 204.197.177.54 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These multiple IPs have violated WP:NR, WP:PA, WP:DE, WP:NPOV and I highly suspect they are committing WP:LOUTSOCK based off the sheer number of IPs they are using combined with similarities to a previous banned user.

This person has engaged in racism towards Koreans and Chinese and other East Asians as a whole, they have called Korea and China "backwaters" and said I quote, "Unlike Europeans who had mathematics, science, exploration, and made maps, East Asians like Koreans and Chinese never had any of these" Here are the examples: [8] [9] [10]

They have conducted numerous personal attacks, directed mainly towards me, they refuse to engage with me on their usage of multiple accounts, accused me of lying for reverting their edits, and other things. [11] "Stop making up history" [12] [13] Accusations of lying

They have repeatedly deleted material on the articles, for example any mentions of the territorial dispute for Noktundo on Noktundo, Convention of Peking, List of territorial disputes and they have made more than a dozen new topics on the exact same topic of if Noktundo "exists or not" as well as if the territorial dispute exists or not when they could have kept it to one or two topics. I cannot list all of them because they've done more than 20+ of these disruptive edits, but here are some of the most egregious examples, such as them ignoring admins. [14] [15] [16] [17]

They are aggressively pushing their POV, suggesting that Korea will "invade" Russia and try to seize the island as well as other things. A particular quote of theirs here: "How so? Are we going to dispute which country owned Pangea? Disputes can only be for things that exist. Disputes cannot be for things that do not exist. Any claim that Primorsky krai is Korean land is a blatant violation of Russia's territory. Might as well claim Moscow is Korean land because Moscow is north of the Tumen river. So? Is South Korea going to claim Moscow is Korean land because Moscow is connected to Primorsky krai by land?" [18] [19] [20] [21]

I believe these fifteen IP accounts are likely from the banned ПаравозЛазо (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), which in turn was a sockpuppet of the banned user Kaustritten (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who had multiple sock puppets such as TTACH (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

I believe there is probable cause to this claim, because [22] shows that Kaustritten and TTACH have used similar racist personal attacks towards other users, and have been adamant on removing any "territorial claims Korea has on Russia" such as when TTACH [23] tried to remove evidence of Goguryeo's presence in Russia which was incorrect.

I hope admin takes action as the distruptive editing through the use of fifteen different IP accounts is both harmful to Wikipedia and is a very serious vandalism issue for the Noktundo wikipedia page. I will notify the user pinging their latest IP that they used, though again it is a bit difficult to contact this user as they keep switching IPs.

Follow up Edit: I also had previously warned them to stop, but they ignored my comments to stop. 1st warning: [24] 2nd and final warning: [25]

Sunnyediting99 (talk) 00:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Looks like the affected pages have been semi-protected for 3 weeks to 1 month, by Materialscientist and Daniel Case. Unfortunately, looks like blocks won't work here due to the rate at which they switch IP addresses, as well as the significant differences between many of the IPs (i.e. they're not all part of one common range that can be blocked or partially blocked). The amount of messages spammed by this single user on Talk:Noktundo is staggering though. — AP 499D25 (talk) 01:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Yea, thats been of great help as prior to the protection of the three pages, they were constantly reverted back with deletions by the vandalism done by the IPs.

I feel like either still temporarily blocking the IPs, or somehow protecting the Talk Pages (or just immediately deleting all future comments from IPs that are spouting similar content and vandalism) would be ideal, I assume they will run out of IPs before we run out of bans. As you mentioned, the messages spammed by this person on the Noktundo Talk Page is indeed staggering, something has to be done to stop this person. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I didn't realise that the odd messages in Talk:List of territorial disputes were part of a wider issue. This level of spamming is definitely disruptive. CMD (talk) 02:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

They have seen the notice and message I sent them, their reply is as follows:

"It is you who are vandalizing Wikipedia and bringing down its standards. Wikipedia is a joke thanks to nationalists like you who ignore reality. You cling onto a stupid article written in Russian from 2013 as your justification about some Noktundo being a disputed territory. You live in your own little fantasy world and ignore the real world. If anything, police should arrest you and throw you behind bars for using a stupid article written in Russian from 2013 to incite conflict and violence. You should be ashamed of yourself and go seek professional help. You saying a Noktundo which does not even exist being a disputed territory does not make it so. You are a crazy person who is clearly not right in the head. 45.58.94.255 (talk) 01:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)"

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Noktundo&diff=prev&oldid=1186564245]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Noktundo&diff=prev&oldid=1186564520]

They still have not commented on this ANI despite me alerting them. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 02:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

That IP has been blocked by Widr. CMD (talk) 06:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Noktundo&diff=prev&oldid=1186632339

They are ignoring the ANI, and have posted through a different IP that was used earlier, the compilation of the points they had previously made through various IP is the strongest evidence yet that the IPs are all the same person.

Admins, while the page is being protected, could you erase all their spams on the Talk Page? Or alternatively are editors allowed to erase content on Talk Page if its vandalism? It's starting to get frustrating seeing them just ignore the ANI and keep repeating their points over and over Sunnyediting99 (talk) 16:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Do you know which talk page? Secretlondon (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It's Talk:Noktundo Sunnyediting99 (talk) 18:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

IP has shifted to [Talk:List of territorial disputes] using Special:Contributions/172.98.151.41 Sunnyediting99 (talk) 05:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Shifted again to 162.221.125.217, perhaps protection might ease this off instead of whack-a-mole? I find it hard to figure out a coherent message amongst the various posts. CMD (talk) 01:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The latest IP address, 162.221.125.217, is now blocked 31h after a report I made at WP:AIV. Additionally, Talk:List of territorial disputes is also semi-protected for two weeks, thank you Materialscientist. — AP 499D25 (talk) 02:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both, I would recommend also potentially re-protecting Talk:Noktundo if we have one more case of vandalism.

I agree, there's not really a coherent message amongst the posts for the most part, it's mostly just personal attacks or disruptive editing. The user doesn't seem interested in following the rules. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 01:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye out on those talk pages and report IPs to AIV / request page protection where needed. Regards, — AP 499D25 (talk) 02:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey @AP 499D25

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Noktundo&oldid=1187591670

They went back to the Talk Page after its protection expired Sunnyediting99 (talk) 19:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

IP 45.58.94.255 beclowning themselves and spamming anti-Korean posts.

Merged here where it belongs. --JBL (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Can someone take a look at IP 45's actions on various talk pages (including Noktundo)? They've gone off the rails. 182.228.179.154 (talk) 05:52, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

This IP address was already being discussed in the thread Banned Wikipedia User utilizing at least 15 Different IPs to vandalize Wikipedia pages by removing mention of Noktundo above, but anyways, it has been blocked by Widr for 31 hrs duration just five minutes before this post. — AP 499D25 (talk) 06:30, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

User:O recomeço and WP:CIR

I have competency concerns with O recomeço, specifically with their use of poor grammar in adding entries to Wikipedia:Unusual articles:

• [26]
• [27]
• [28]
• [29]
• [30]
• [31]
• [32]
• [33]
• [34]
• [35]
• [36]

The above examples are from this month alone. I'm sure there's more, but even after the entries added were copyedited, there has seemingly been no improvement. I'd say we block them. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 17:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I see no attempt to contact them on the talk page or their own talk. ANI is completely unwarranted so far 47.188.8.46 (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Um... [37] The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 22:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm guessing the IP means that no one tried talking directly to the user to explain them the issue with their editing pattern. Isabelle Belato ^{🏴‍☠️} 22:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Isabelle Belato, I'm the user that you're talking about here. To tried to explain my part, i'm a relatily new wikipedian and i'm still trying to figure out how the rules really in this community, but other usernames have already wanded me abaout the, impopularity per say, that its to make mutiple small editis on Wikipedia pages. But can you ask me one big question: in average, what is the "nice scale", and the frenquency, that a user make to a page, for its edit to be consider "legitimate" amoung other wikipedia users? For the gramatical errors, I'm not a native english speaker, so that's something I'll have to improve in the future. O recomeço (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi O recomeço. The issue being presented here is not your amount of edits, but your domain of the English language. While it's no issue to misspell things occasionally, something that I do myself, The Grand Delusion is presenting here a pattern in your editing, meaning other users have to continually correct your mistakes. You should consider installing an autocorrect on your browser so that doesn't happen as often. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 11:57, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Belato. Thanks for trying to explain me the grand issue that you gauys are trying to inform me. I'll to make less gramticals erros in the future. O recomeço (talk) 12:57, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be better if you just stuck to editing the Wikipedia of your native language. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 13:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

O recomeço, your next two edits after your message (1 and 2) had both spelling and grammatical errors. I'll say this more bluntly: your English isn't good enough to edit the English Wikipedia. Please, only edit the versions of Wikipedia in which you have a firm grasp of the language. -- Mike 🗩 20:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

And your very next edit (3), included more mistakes that needed fixed. -- Mike 🗩 13:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Disruptive, redundant and unexplained changes to thumbnail sizes by User:Mndata2

MOS:UPRIGHT explains how upright= should be used, specifying the circumstances where it might be reasonable to choose a thumbnail size other than the default. User:Mndata2 has visited dozens of articles, inserting upright tags without any evident logic and ignoring requests to use edit summaries to explain their reasoning. Multiple attempts on their talk page to address the issue have received no response whatever:

• First friendly advice: user talk:Mndata2#Unexplained addition of upright tags to thumbnails. No response. User started to provide terse edit summaries but continued to add unexplained upright= tags.
  • Advice reiterated by user:Pyrope. No response
• Mndata ignored the polite requests and continued disruptive editing: given a uw-disruptive2. No response.
• Disruptive editing continued, given a uw-disruptive3. No response.
• Disruptive editing continued, given a second uw-disruptive3 warning. No response.
• Disruptive editing continued: [38], [39], [40], [41], [42], [43]], [44], [45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53] [54]. Given a uw-disruptive4 final warning.
  • Request reiterated by user:Murgatroyd49. No response.
• Disruption continued next day: [55], [56], [57] (twice).

WP:Communication is required. I suggest that this editor be blocked from editing until they show willing to engage in dispute resolution mechanisms. (A make-weight I know, but they also ignore notifications from DPL bot too, leaving it to others to clean up their errors.)

Is that enough? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Refusal to communicate and wasting others time with unexplained small edits contrary to established WP:MOS means I support a block since that seems to be what it will take for Mndata2 to respond to the many concerns. TylerBurden (talk) 21:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Mndata2 has continued to edit since the ANI reference, continues to make unexplained changes to thumbnail sizes (upright=1.1! seriously?), such as [58], [59] and [60].

All their editing is on mobile, afaics. Does that mean that they are not actually seeing any pings that there are messages on their talk page? If so, then a temporary block must be the only way to grab their attention. What do I need to do to get an administrator to intervene? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Well posting here I would say was sensible since this is the definition of a chronic and unmanageable behavioral problem that requires administrator intervention since the editor either is unable or unwilling to listen to anyone else. Hopefully one will intervene before the thread is archived, otherwise perhaps an administrator could be contacted directly. TylerBurden (talk) 20:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

For science, I momentarily disabled "Advanced mode" in my preferences, and confirm that the notification icon is still visible at the top of every screen. All mobile editors would appear to receive notifications now. Folly Mox (talk) 13:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:FuzzyMagma and close paraphrasing

TL;DR: Not only does FuzzyMagma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) have an extensive track record close paraphrasing, but they actively dismiss any warnings about their editing and do not properly acknowledge their mistakes.

Summary

• FuzzyMagma has previously been warned for copyright issues (see section "Copyright problem: Republican Palace (Sudan)").
• I first noticed their edits when dying posted an extensive cross examination at WT:DYK, as part of a dispute over a DYK nomination (see first collapsible section below).
• FuzzyMagma's response was one of open contempt: "I saw the name dying and stopped reading tbh."
• Because of the clear close paraphrasing and refusal to acknowledge fault, I gave them a warning on their talk page. They immediately reverted with the edit summary "Don’t spam my talk with rubbish".
• In the five days since that warning, they have continued to add close paraphrasing to articles (see second collapsible section below).
• Yesterday, theleekycauldron opened a CCI to discuss FuzzyMagma's edits. FM's response focuses predominantly on other editors' conduct, insinuating that dying had not randomly selected the article Kalakla to look at, and only vaguely addressing the masses of close paraphrasing in their own edits: I am not saying that I have not made mistakes, I have made plenty but ...

Part of dying's source-text analysis, originally without tables at WT:DYK (20/11/2023)

Source September 1983 laws "Nimeiry was allied with the Muslim Brotherhood led by ... al-Turabi [and] allowed the group to carry out its advocacy, political, and economic activity. The latter took advantage of the opportunity in order to empower itself and take control. The group blessed the announcement of implementing the laws of September 1983 and took out massive marches in support of the move. It also provided its political support for the laws through its advocacy platforms, student organizations, and voluntary organizations, as well as its cadres of judges ... such as Muhammad Mahjoub Haj Nour and Al-Makashfi Taha Al-Kabashi." "Nimeiry was allied with the Muslim Brotherhood led by al-Turabi and allowed the group to carry out its advocacy, political, and economic activities. The Brotherhood took advantage of the opportunity to order to empower itself and take control. The group blessed the announcement of implementing the laws of September 1983 and had massive marches in support of the move. It also provided political support for the laws through its advocacy platforms, student organisations, and voluntary organisations, as well as its cadres of judges such as Muhammad Mahjoub Haj Nour and Al-Makashfi Taha Al-Kabashi." Source September 1983 laws "... as many as 300 Sudanese who have lost one or more limbs .... Emergency courts routinely ordered amputations for people found guilty of stealing property worth $40 or more. For those who received such punishment, stares, accusations and harassment are constant. Employment is, for them, an ever-diminishing expectation. ... Their severed limbs represent badges of criminal guilt ..., making ... wrongful arrest common. They are taunted .... The punishments sometimes brought an end to family life; to go home without a limb would mean shame .... The amputees have formed a self-help association ... to establish small businesses and obtain medical and legal assistance. ... Peter Anton von Arnim ... said the Government's arguments ... included accusations that it would be a front for criminals, and that would upset Moslems who favored the Sudan's form of Islamic justice." "As many as 300 Sudanese endured the painful amputation of limbs. These punishments, administered by emergency courts, were inflicted on those found guilty of stealing property worth over $40. These amputees faced constant social stigma and accusations, making it increasingly challenging to secure employment. Their severed limbs were perceived as marks of criminality, leading to wrongful arrests and a life of taunts as they walked the streets. In many cases, these punishments shattered family lives, as returning home without a limb brought shame. ... However, they rallied together to form a self-help association, aiming to establish small businesses and obtain medical and legal assistance. They ... faced opposition from the government, citing concerns that it might be used as a front for criminals and disrupt the Sudan's form of Islamic justice." Source September 1983 laws "Then, in 1984, Nimeiry began proposing draft broad constitutional amendments to the 1973 Constitution to declare Sudan an "Islamic Republic" ( Article 1 of the draft amendments ) and for the President of the Republic to be "a leader of the believers and the head and imam of the state" ( Article 80 of the draft amendments ), and for the sources of Sharia to be It is the law and custom that does not conflict with it ( Article 59 of the draft amendments ). Then the 1998 Constitution came to glorify the religious foundation by introducing a text on "the nature of the state," which stipulated that governance in the state belongs to God, the Creator of human beings ( Article 4 ). It also stipulated that it is not permissible to enact a law that conflicts with Islamic law and the consensus of the nation ( Article 65 ), as the text thus excluded non-Muslims by consolidating the religious state's dominance over the aspects of public life." " Also in 1984, Nimeiry began proposing broad constitutional draft amendments to the 1973 Constitution to declare Sudan an "Islamic republic" (article 1 of the draft amendments), and for the president of the republic to be "a leader of the believers and the head and imam of the state" (article 80 of the draft amendments), and for the sources of Sharia to be it is the law and custom that does not conflict with it (article 59 of the draft amendments). It also stipulated that it is not permissible to enact a law that conflicts with Islamic law and the consensus of the nation (article 65), as the text thus excluded non-Muslims by consolidating the religious state's dominance over aspects of public life." Source Islamism in Sudan "After the overthrow of Numeiri's rule, Al-Turabi and his men founded the "National Islamic Front," which ran in the elections for the Constituent Assembly and won third place after the two historical parties, with 54 seats, which made it the leader of the opposition. Al-Turabi succeeded once again in acting as a pressing opposition party, disrupting the attempt of Sadiq al-Mahdi, the prime minister and majority leader in parliament, to suspend the controversial September laws and initiate peace negotiations with the south." "Following the fall of Nimeiri's regime, al-Turabi and his associates established the "Islamic National Front." This newly formed group participated in the Constituent Assembly elections and secured the third position, amassing 54 seats. This achievement positioned them as the leading opposition force. Al-Turabi once again excelled in playing the role of a influential opposition party, effectively thwarting Sadiq al-Mahdi's endeavor—head of the government and the parliamentary majority—to suspend the contentious September laws and push forward peace negotiations with the southern region." Source Kalakla "The history of Al-Kalakla goes back approximately 450 years, since the arrival of Sheikh Ali bin Muhammad bin Kannah .... Hamdallah bin Muhammad Al-Awadi ... came in the same era to this spot ... and the two intermarried, so the name (Al-Kalakla) came to be included in them. The ancient Kalakla migrated from Al-Manjara to the land of gravel, which is the area south of Al-Hamdab and Al-Shajara .... The Kalakla worked in agriculture, cutting trees ...." "The history of Kalakla goes back approximately 450 years, since the arrival of Sheikh Ali bin Muhammad bin Kanna .... Hamdallah bin Muhammad Al-Awadi also came to the region in the same era .... The two intermarried and the name Kalakla came to include all of them. The ancient Kalakla people migrated from Al-Manjara to the today's Kalakla, an area located south of Al-Hammadab and Al-Shajara. The Kalakla people worked in agriculture, and cutting trees and lumber." and more, smaller examples. References

Post-warning close paraphrasing (21–25/11/2023)

Source War crimes during the War in Sudan (2023) "Scores of women and girls, some as young as 12, have been subjected to sexual violence - including rape - by members of the warring sides. Some were held for days in conditions of sexual slavery." "Numerous females, including girls as young as 12, have endured sexual violence, including rape, at the hands of combatants from opposing factions. Certain individuals were forcibly detained for extended periods in situations tantamount to sexual slavery." Source, Malik Maaza "He worked at universities throughout Europe and Asia before coming to South Africa as a senior lecturer at Wits University in 1997, where he became Research Group leader for the Advanced Nano-Materials and Nano-Scale Physics Lab. He has co-initiated the African Laser Centre and the South African Nanotechnology Initiative ... he initiated the Nanosciences African Network" "Maaza’s research covers not only photonics but materials science at the nano-scale for different applications such as selective solar absorbers for solar energy harvesting and conversion, Nanofluids for enhanced heat transfer in concentrated solar power (CSP) and other renewable energy technologies." "After working across universities in Europe and Asia, Maaza joined University of the Witwatersrand in 1997 as a senior lecturer and later led the Advanced Nano-Materials and Nano-Scale Physics Lab. He co-found the African Laser Centre and South African Nanotechnology Initiative that was launched in 2001 and spearheaded the Nanosciences African Network." "His research spans photonics and nano-scale materials science, targeting diverse applications like selective solar absorbers, nanofluids for enhanced heat transfer in solar power, and renewable energy technologies." References

Thus, I have no confidence that FuzzyMagma understands their mistakes or wants to fix them. This is a shame, because they are an editor who clearly cares greatly about fixing the systemic bias on the project. Hopefully, this thread conveys something of that nature to them. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

It seems like I am being targeted for the same issue at two different places. Have a look here Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations#FuzzyMagma.

It’s amazing that two different people (not dying) are investing time reporting this. Again not the one who claim to found something but two who sided with dying from the beginning.

Talking about systemic bias ok! You told my to drop the stick and once I pointed out that I was not the one with the stick you went quiet, and gave me a warning on my talk and now this.

At least the other admin did the decent thing and let someone impartial have a look. That is how you at least solve systemic bias.

Anyway, read my reply at CCI. FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:06, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

“have an extensive track record close paraphrasing, but they actively dismiss any warnings about their editing and do not properly acknowledge their mistakes.” do not state opinion as a fact, wait for the CCI outcome or at least read my rebuttal and don’t put your “feeling” about my rebuttal but summarise what was said using an impartial language. FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

How did you conclude that Malik Maaza is WP:close paraphrasing?!

please just wait for CCI, your whole summary of the incident is unfair/skewed and for some reason you want close this by providing - what you think - as more evidence FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I mentioned the ongoing CCI report above FuzzyMagma; this ANI report is letting impartial administrators have a look to decide whether action needs to be taken now. If you are unable to see the clearly-outlined close paraphrasing at Malik Maaza, that may be evidence in that direction. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

You did not answer my questions about why you summairsed they CCI in the way that you did. Did you read that you need to give a a brief neutral description of the dispute. What you did is not neutral.

As for Malik Maaza, I truly do not see it. How would you arrange someone early life, PhD and then date of birth? These are typical article sentence structure. and I understand that you might not be a scientist but you cannot paraphrase technical terms words like "heat transfer" and "selective solar absorbers" although I did try. They do not fit the WP:close paraphrasing (see WP:LIMITED) even when you apply earwig, it detect these names but still give 7% similarity. FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:03, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma, Dying, Theleekycauldron, Rjjiii, Viriditas, and Diannaa: editors mentioned or previously involved with DYK nom or copyright; talk page notification to come shortly.

• Despite everything, I'm going to plead for leniency on FuzzyMagma's behalf. For starters – and this is partially my fault – dying's concerns at the original WT:DYK thread and the nomination discussion were communicated incredibly poorly. The first example dying cited turned out to be a dud, leading FuzzyMagma to think that they were out of the woods. dying did not clearly identify all of the sources the submitted article was copied from, within Wikipedia or otherwise, which they implied after the fact was an intentional choice on their part to spare FuzzyMagma the criticism. That led to example after example of source material and conflicting quotes from the DYK rules being thrown at FuzzyMagma, with them being tasked with sorting all of it out without a clear picture of what was going on and under the time pressure of the hook already being queued to appear on the Main Page. I hope dying's takeaway from this thread is that, though they remained civil, that choice made the thread much longer and more painful than it needed to be. None of this excuses FuzzyMagma's behavior towards dying, and it especially doesn't excuse the very legitimate copyright concerns, but I can certainly understand their frustration with this entire process, which revolves around the application of niche and esoteric DYK procedural rules designed to prevent newness-by-copying and was not explained well. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:03, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  I have no doubt that FuzzyMagma was frustrated by the discussion at DYK, theleekycauldron. My concerns are with the ongoing addition of close paraphrasing, even after they have been explicitly warned and after you opened the CCI. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

If we assume everything said about the situation under discussion is true, what about a simple solution that temporarily restricts the user to draft space, where their work can be checked by interested parties, and they can demonstrate how to paraphrase appropriately? Perhaps combining this with a mentorship would be best? This would allow the user to continue their work just as they doing now, with the only difference that it would have to be checked and approved before going to main space. Viriditas (talk) 02:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The tables above show clear copyright violations and they are not permitted anywhere. I have not investigated this issue but taking the tables at face value and regardless of how poor earlier communication was, FuzzyMagma has to avoid similar edits because repeated problems of this nature have to result in a block. Johnuniq (talk) 05:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

That seems like a good solution to me. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The pre-warning examples are a bit long to meet WP:LIMITED IMO, but the post-warning examples are fine per WP:LIMITED. No mentorship or other action seems needed here, the "warning" seems to have worked. Levivich (talk) 16:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

A GA review of Horses in Sudan was started by A455bcd9 since the last post in this thread. After initially being put on hold, the GA review was failed the same day for OR, SYNTH, verifiability and editorialising issues with some strong criticism from a455bcd9 and also from Grorp. Grorp's changes to the article note that:

• these two sources fail to verify. the first is clear that it rarely occurred, the second is about dung as fuel (not meat), and also that
• Grorp "replaced a tertiary source (okstate) and an unreliable source containing gibberish (horseranger)".

A response from FM says that

• "what [a455bcd9] call[ed] failed verification [FM has] showed to be a failure of understanding how summaries works",
• a455bcd9 "either didn’t read ny rebuttal or choose to ignore it" (hardly AGFing), and
• advises a455bcd9 that "when you are challenged, you should normally seek a second opinion not just stick to yours"... all whils FM maintains sticking with their opinion.

Though the issue here is not COPYVIO or close paraphrasing, it is a sourcing issue and struggling to see issues in one's own work, etc. I thought a455bcd9 or Grorp might like to comment on this thread, and that perhaps further / broader consideration is needed of the issues connected with FM's editing. 172.195.96.244 (talk) 23:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I am loath to dig much deeper than what I already have done for the GA review of Horses in Sudan. In short, it seems FM copied info and [at least] 4 citations from the French-wiki and from another poorly-cited English-wiki article without checking the sources for reliability or suitability.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

they actively dismiss any warnings about their editing and do not properly acknowledge their mistakes: based on my only interaction with them (Talk:Horses in Sudan/GA1) I'd say this as well. After this GAN review, I wanted to check their edits as I was concerned about the (lack of) quality of their edits and their reaction to my feedback. It looks like I'm not the only one to be worried about this contributor... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:32, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Unbelievable! I stand corrected, having just discovered that the unreliable citations FuzzyMagma 'allegedly copied' from Tawleed... he put there in both articles! [61] [62] It makes me angry that I posted giving him the benefit of the doubt, just to discover that he knowingly chose crappy citations... and then defended his position in a GA review. Now evaluating his edit in Tawleed [63] and comparing the content FM added against the 3 sources he cited (to see if he might have closely paraphrased) instead I find FM made it all up; it's all WP:OR. There is nothing in those citations to support the content he added to the Tawleed article.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 09:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The far paraphrasing is a much bigger problem than the close paraphrasing. Levivich (talk) 18:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• text: The Tawleed horse breed originated in the Khartoum region of Sudan. It is a unique breed known for its strength, endurance, and suitability as a riding horse. The breed was developed by cross-breeding native Sudan Country-Bred horses with an exotic breed, primarily Thoroughbred, which contributed to its riding qualities

• source: The Tawleed was developed in the Khartoum region of Sudan as a riding horse. It was formed by upgrading Sudan Country-Bred horses with exotic breed, primarily Thoroughbred.

• text: Tawleed horses are characterised by their sturdiness and excellent endurance, making them ideal riding horses. They are often described as strong and easy keepers, capable of thriving on meager rations.

... Despite being less renowned for its appearance compared to some other breeds, the Tawleed horse possesses qualities like stamina, endurance, and a gentle nature. These attributes, combined with its strong, short-coupled body

• source: What is known about the Tawleed horse breed is that it is used by the indigenous people of the Sudan in the mountanous areas. The breed is an extremely easy keeper. They are strong and sturdy with excellent endurance. These horses are good riding horses. The horse's gaits are not known nor are the color variations. However, it is thought that the breed will be able to be DNA traced to Thoroughbred blood.

• These attributes, combined with its strong, short-coupled body, made it suitable for various equestrian disciplines, including dressage.

• source: It is mainly intended for equestrian sport , namely races in the Khartoum region (citing Delachaux et Niestlé. p.412,

FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I generally try to address the substance rather than how it is phrased but saying that "giving him the benefit of the doubt" is not true. See our first encounter Template:Horse topics#Unchecked expansion when you complained that the "evolution and history" has been expanded with CONTEMPORARY (you used all caps) articles because I added Sudan and Togo next to the United States. Later you made a new template while including the same articles you labelled as "evolution and history" with the "CONTEMPORARY" without seeing the irony.

Also at Talk:Horses in Sudan/GA1 you said that my articles related to Sudan/Africa/Muslim topics; not horse topics. two notes

• if you have a comment be constructive, you do not need to use gatekeeping antics. Just address the issue and leave
• Sudan in Africa, and I have never created any article about "Muslim" (or Islam) topics but I did create plenty about materials science, and plenty of other topics. In many of these topics, most editors are kind enough to give a constructive feedback; however, you choose to alienate [me].

FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@A455bcd9 there is nothing wrong about being challenged and requesting a 3O. here is an example of why I challenged you

You stated ", I could not verify the following statements using the following ref: * Sudan's horse culture dates back centuries, with horses being highly prized and associated with wealth and power. [5]; I pointed out that is a summary as the source mentions

• The families renowned for horse breeding and horsemanship in Khartoum include those of Imam Al-Mahdi, late statesman Al-Azhary, Mamoun Ahmed Mekky, Muntasir Abdul A'al, Kaboky, al-Waleed Madibo and many other families." these are wealth and powerful families
• In Darfur, the famous families connected with horses include those of Mohamed Hamid Al-Jailany (Abu Garjah), Fadul Hamdan, Ibrahim Obaid Tairab, Gony Mukhtar and others.
• strong passion for horses and they often mention those domesticated animals in their traditional ardent poems and songs gleefully listened to by every Sudanese.
• They constitute an historic legacy
• The young horseman said, after winning a championship equestrian and Presidential Assistant Abdul Rahman al-Mahdi offered him a cap and a neck-tie as a present as an incentive and promised to equip his new horse a saddle, reins, other accessories and a costume.

a 3O came and sided with you. Case closed, move on ... FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• General note: not sure where to put this, but I am getting busy in "real life" and will disappear until Xmas; thus, I might not be able to reply but at the same time I won't edit Wikipedia, except on the 9/12 for event. I hope there is no deadline for me to clarify why I did something that might be preserved as "not understanding my mistakes or want to fix them" when I think that I am trying to do that as much as I can. I work between "Fix it yourself instead of just talking about it" and "Do not be upset if your bold edits get reverted" from Wikipedia:Be bold FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma: Do you think we're that gullible? You just gave 3 dishonest examples! Now it's my turn. Using this diff which shows your actual edit in Tawleed; you added content and cited 3 sources, and I'll mention them in order just like you did.

1. You added the content It is a unique breed known for its strength, endurance, and suitability as which is not reflected in the 1st source.

2. The 2nd source does not support this content you added: capable of thriving on meager rations. This breed has historical significance, and its development played a role in the evolution of other horse breeds, including the Andalusian and even Western Hemisphere breeds like the American Quarter Horse and Appaloosa.

3. You just now cite French Wikipedia, which isn't what you actually cited in your edit; and by the way, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. You instead had cited this blog as your 3rd source which contains none of the content you added, "Despite being less renowned for its appearance compared to some other breeds, the Tawleed horse possesses qualities like stamina, endurance, and a gentle nature. These attributes, combined with its strong, short-coupled body, made it suitable for various equestrian disciplines, including dressage."

To those reading this thread here on ANI, this is a perfect example of "does not properly acknowledge their mistakes," but instead has dishonestly tried to convince the readers otherwise.

And while I was drafting this note, FuzzyMagma wrote more screed about this or that, just more reactive pushback that I won't bother to address, except for this: FuzzyMagma, my point about related to Sudan/Africa/Muslim topics; not horse topics was to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not a horse-topic editor and might have gotten it wrong because of your lack of experience on the topic. The word 'muslim' was because your edit history shows you created a lot of BLPs of muslim-type-named persons. Maybe I should have used a different word, but I'm not familiar with the subject matter and was only pointing out you don't edit horse articles!   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 08:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma: no horses being highly prized and associated with wealth and power cannot be backed by the source saying "The families renowned for horse breeding and horsemanship in Khartoum include those of Imam Al-Mahdi, late statesman Al-Azhary, Mamoun Ahmed Mekky, Muntasir Abdul A'al, Kaboky, al-Waleed Madibo and many other families." and YOU guessing because you know/think/consider that "these are wealth and powerful families". This is WP:OR. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

If some people want to dig deeper: FM has 12 articles waiting for review at WP:GAN. (Including Islamic Sharia laws in Sudan, a Sudanese Islamic leader, and Islamic school in Sudan: so I'm surprised that FM denied contributing to "Muslim" (or Islam) topics. There's nothing wrong about these topics, just weird to deny this unobjectionable fact...). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Ekpyros

This user signs their posts as ElleTheBelle, however we have a user Ellethebelle and that signature is violating WP:SIGFORGE. This has been raised to Ekpyros multiple times, with Drmies asking them to be more transparent and I asked them to correct the SIGFORGE issue as well. None of those complaints have been responded to. nableezy - 16:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, this needs to be actioned in one way or another. Black Kite (talk) 16:44, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• I actioned it--in one way. All they need to do is change the signature. BTW I'll never understand why people don't respond to talk page comments. Drmies (talk) 18:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I've made it clear to them what they need to do. GiantSnowman 18:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    • This editor should not be unblocked under any circumstances: she is a long term civil POV-pusher who is here purely to WP:RGW (in her case, the great wrongs in question being anything that a white supremacist would object to). A significant fraction of her edits plainly misstate source material, often in astonishingly dishonest and tendentious ways, and this has been true since she first began editing here. Here are two of her recent edits; I challenge anyone to justify them based on the sources being cited: [64] [65]. In my experience these are representative examples rather than outliers. --JBL (talk) 23:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
      • The signature issue aside, I've looked at the source and really the problem with Special:Diff/1183162044 is that if, per the edit summary, one thinks that it's a bad source to start with, why replace one cherry-picked set of statements from a bad source with another different set? I can see both forms of the text supported by the source, and your challenge can actually be met. But both of them are from highly disparate tiny parts of it. Uncle G (talk) 11:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

        Uncle G touche, I guess -- in that instance, the issue is not that her edit misrepresents the source, it's that took material that was related to the article and rewrote it to be about some completely other topic. Is that any better? No, this is still someone who should be kept far away from the encyclopedia (even if also I should have striven to be more precise in describing the precise reasons why). --JBL (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

      • Ah yeah, I wondered where I remembered the name from. I first encountered them at Murder of Ahmaud Arbery, where they were trying to make the murder victim look bad. They have been active at a number of other articles about murders both by and of non-white people - even historical ones - and their POV is quite clear to see. Black Kite (talk) 11:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

They have changed their signature from 'ElleTheBelle' to 'ElleThatBelle'. I've told them it's not good enough and so I have not unblocked. If I wasn't AGFing I would say they are trolling. GiantSnowman 19:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd say that and the above information is enough to just declare them WP:NOTHERE and leave them blocked for that reason specifically. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

• As the signature was fixed, and the user was told explicitly that that would suffice for unblocking, I've unblocked. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with that, and I consider this issue resolved. If somebody wants to raise another issue they should feel free to do so, but this was specifically about the signature and that has been corrected. nableezy - 21:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. GiantSnowman 21:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, the one issue is resolved -- but other issues have been raised above, and also deserve consideration. --JBL (talk) 18:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Disruptive behaviour by User:Wassim Wydadi

• Wassim Wydadi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User continues to engage in WP:disruptive editing and WP:edit waring by removing sourced content, despite multiple warning over months, refuses to engage or WP:Get the point.

• First edit 14 September 2023
• Second edit 25 September 2023‎
• Third edit 20 October 2023‎
• First warning 20 October 2023‎
• Fourth edit 27 November 2023‎
• Second warning 27 November 2023‎
• Fifth edit 27 November 2023‎
• Third warning 27 November 2023‎

Skjoldbro (talk) 15:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Skjoldbro You can't just bombard an editor with template warnings that's neither obvious vandalism or disruption. This is a content dispute, and you haven't bothered to start a disccuion on the talk pages (user talk page doesn't count). Try doing that first before making a report to ANI. Jerium (talk) 15:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Looks like they're all the same mobile edit. Could be they can't hear you although I still can't think of a good reason they're making the edit in the first place. Might take some kind of admin action to get their attention and at least figure out what they're thinking. GabberFlasted (talk) 15:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Skjoldbro You and Wassim Wydadi already broke the WP:3RR rule and are both eligible for blocking. Please start a discussion before this gets worse for you. Jerium (talk) 17:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

3RR has not been violated, although they could arguably be blocked for edit warring at this point since they've done nothing but revert for the last several days. Daniel Case (talk) 04:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Template:Ranks and Insignia of Non NATO Armies/OF/Morocco. Jerium (talk) 05:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jerium I think it would behoove you to lower your torch and pitchfork. I'm not sure what's making you say that Skjoldbro bombarded WW with templates, or that WW's contributions aren't disruptive, or that this is a content dispute, or that discussions *must* take place on article talk pages and that User Talk doesn't count as communication, or that 3RR has been violated without evidence. Reasonable minds may differ but I don't find any of these claims true. GabberFlasted (talk) 12:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Does somebody really have to explain to you why there’s water in the ocean? Jerium (talk) 14:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sn.c22 not getting feedback from other editors concerning repeated Manual of Style deviations

• Sn.c22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Other editors have repeatedly asked this editor to stop adding sub-national flags to articles, random boldface, and the like. The requests have gone unanswered and their behavior has not changed. It looks like they are a mobile editor and may not have received the message; they have never communicated with another editor via talkpage, including their own, as far as I can see. Their only use of talkapages seems to be nonsensical edit requests like this and this back in March, their latest TP usage. There may be a CIR issue as well. Can something be done? ☆ Bri (talk) 16:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

We really should have a better way of dealing with sullen silence. I have reported a similar case above, where the editor simply ignores all messages at their talk page, including the ANI referral. It is all very well to assert WP:Communication is required but unless action is taken, what does it mean? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

They can be blocked by an admin until they acknowledge the problem, that's the usual solution. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Blocked from article space, 2 weeks, until they respond. If they do and it is a reasonable one feel free to unblock. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 00:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone know whether partial blocks prevent voting in the ArbCom elections? If so it seems a little disproportionate to disenfranchise this editor for relatively minor MoS infractions. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't know but I wouldn't think so as the block should only apply to article space here. Try partial blocking me and I'll see if I can revote. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 01:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll save you a block: per Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections December 2021#Partially blocked voters, partially blocked editors can indeed vote. (Under most circumstances, they can even run for the Committee.) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 17:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, Extraordinary Writ. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Promotional IP range on behalf of Air Force

Resolved

 – Both ranges blocked for a week for evasion Daniel Case (talk) 04:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

2804:14C:6581:5F9B:0:0:0:1001 (talk · contribs) and more accounts from this Brazilian IP range have been adding promotional, poorly sourced content to multiple articles. Much of the content appears to have been copied from US Air Force websites, so some of it may be free use. If not, there's liable to be an ocean of rev/deletion for copyright violation. At any rate, it ain't NPOV. See also long term disruption at alternate account, 2804:14C:6581:569E:0:0:0:1000 (talk · contribs). I'm sure there are more. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 17:36, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

• I can add links to the articles involved, but first a question: are the Brazilian accounts block evasion by Jordison.francisco (talk · contribs), who had similar interests and has been blocked for copyright violations? 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Um that's a blatant duck quack on that yes. I've blocked them for block evasion. Also 2804:14C:6581:569E:0:0:0:1000. We may need to go into some range blocking.Canterbury Tail talk 22:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

With luck, those two will be the only mallards. Thank you, Canterbury Tail. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 23:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Disruption on Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign

The IP 67.82.74.5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been disrupting Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign for the past few days, engaging in frequent personal attacks (including this comment which has since been removed), starting two out of process, non-neutral RfCs (1, 2), and generally failing to maintain an appropriate level of decorum despite multiple warnings from other editors. They also removed a good-faith comment from another editor, describing it as "vandalism". Given that this is a pretty clear case of WP:NOTHERE/WP:RGW or whatever else you want to call it, I think it's time to show them the door. — SamX [talk · contribs] 17:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

This report is ridiculous. No one has posted on that page since April prior to the current incident. I came back to the article after many months and found that the article is now in flagrant violation of Wikipedia policy, stating in the relevant text that introduces the issue that "Trump claimed the election was stolen" without then mentioning that the claims were false, as do the reliable sources stated in the article. Since the comment section of that article is effectively dead, I have merely asked for eyes on an important issue in order to resolve it, since posting to a talk page that has not been used in over 8 months is unhelpful. Nevertheless, I have also posted these concerns, in detail on the comment section. I am frustrated by the lack of engagement with substance on a flagrant violation of Wikipedia policy. There is not a single source in the article that frames Trump's claims of a stolen election without immediately stating that these claims are falsehoods. My description of this state of affairs is neutral because there is no dispute as to whether Trump's claims are indeed false; every reliable source states that they are false and no one has denied that. Framing this as an issue of neutrality is incorrect because there is no real dispute as to the truth of these claims.

As far as the accusation that I removed an edit, this was an error as I misunderstood their vote for a close to mean that they had unilaterally closed the discussion in opposition to the prior poster who had also decided the discussion could stand after the changes that had been made to the original post. I did not realize there was a comment, I thought they had simply closed the discussion from the edit description. It was an error.

And again, all I have asked is that we restore the word "falsely" to the sentence that "Trump claimed the 2020 election was stolen," as it used to read. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 18:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I have partially blocked the IP editor from Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign and its associated article for 48 hours.

IP editor - You may not use the talk page as a forum. If you wanted to ask that "falsely" be reinserted, this certainly was not the way to do that. Your edits were disruptive at best. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but can you kindly explain to me how I "used the talk page as a forum"? I was concerned solely with making a specific change to an article. To my understanding, using a "talk page as a forum" means using the talk page to discuss the topic in question. I proposed a concrete change to the article in order to render the article in compliance with Wikipedia's policies and adhere to its sources. For example, the specific article cited for that sentence introduces Trump's false claims of a stolen election as follows : "his false claims of election fraud in the months leading up to the riot." Wikipedia however introduces proven falsehoods described as such in reliable sources merely as "claims". I'm honestly shocked that not one editor has taken the effort to correct a flagrant violation of policy where an article directly contradicts the description given in the article's sources. I would have thought this would have been a priority for our editors here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.74.5 (talk) 18:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

No, you were not solely concerned with that. The vast majority of your edit consisted of a diatribe against Trump supporters and insults towards previous editors of the article. That is not what a talk page is for. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Certainly. The following are diffs and quotes from your edits that were forum-like, i.e., they used the page as a venue to vent your personal opinions on the topic. They were additionally WP:POLEMIC and WP:NPA.

• This page has been the target of a concerted propaganda campaign from the Far-Right and is a disgrace to humanity for its worshipful bootlicking of Trump... Indeed, the only one who attempted (and failed) to steal it is Trump, a treasonous crime for which he now stands trial, before God and all Americans. ... Grow a spine, you cowardly jellyfish.
• This page, prior to being infilitrated by narcs and other Trumpist authoritarians, used to speak the truth. ... Indeed, the only one who attempted (and failed) to steal it is Trump, a treasonous crime for which he now stands trial, before God and all Americans. ... I humbly request that this article no longer traffic in lies, propaganda, and deceit ... And yet the cowardly, weak-willed editors of this project refuse to allow an encylopedia to speak the well-documented, all-too-well-known truth. Grow a spine, you cowardly jellyfish.
  • This was made after a series of edits to soften the first linked diff
• these claims are pure bullshit, utter and total fabrications. Correct this outrage at once! Wikipedia is being used as a tool of far-right propaganda yet again.
• And yet the cowardly, weak-willed editors of this project refuse to allow an encylopedia to speak the well-documented, all-too-well-known truth.
• you apparently don't care that Wikipedia policy is being flaunted to promote known lies and misinformation in direct contradiction of the sources in the article. Truly shameful.

That was from the first half of the edits you made today. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps that is polemical, but I was all along discussing a concrete change to the article. And I changed my tone when others complained and removed the language to which others objected. The final version of the RfC was scrupulously neutral and yet the entire discussion has now been deleted under the guise of WP:NOTFORUM, which seems inappropriate. This is a legitimate issue. Trump's claim that the "election was stolen" should not be allowed to be given in Wikipedia without stating that the claim is disproven. Every reliable source we cite rigorously adheres to this guideline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.74.5 (talk) 18:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I would have thought this would have been a priority for our editors here. Our "priority" is to ensure that our articles have a neutral stance. We write facts, not opinions. You are blatantly ignoring this, no matter how many times you have been warned. On top of all this mess, you are also attacking other editors that are trying to say what I am. I would highly suggest you stop arguing that "our editors" who have much more experience then you are completely wrong, or you might get locked behind the gates by an administrator. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 18:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

"Our priority is to ensure that our articles have a neutral stance."

I accept that some of my comments may have been intemperate and will of course abide by the temporary block, no matter how unjust it may be. However, the text I proposed adding to the article was 100 percent neutral. I was the one in this dispute who was asking that Wikipedia include "facts, not opinions" as given by our sources. If you look at the citation for the sentence in question, it introduces Trump's false claim that the election was stolen by stating that the claim is false, describing his falsehoods thus : "his false claims of election fraud in the months leading up to the riot." Every citation in the article adheres to the same practice, and yet our article does not. Describing proven falsehoods as false IS neutral. An encyclopedia is supposed to reflect the consensus of the sources it cites. The consensus of reliable sources is that Trump's false claims of a stolen election must always be described as false, because they are. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 18:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

That's equivalent to arguing that every mention of Earth on Wikipedia must include "which is not flat", because the scientific consensus is that it is not flat. We have articles about Trump's false claims, we don't have to beat readers over the head with the fact his claims were false every time it comes up in an article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The passage in question is the very first mention of Trump's lies that the 2020 election was stolen, and this encyclopedia fails to advise its readers that these claims are untrue, despite the cited source for the passage describing them as false. For many readers, this may be the only time they see Trump's lies of a stolen election referenced in the article, and despite the sources cited rigorously adhering to the guideline that Trump's falsehoods must be identified as falsehoods, the encyclopedia does not. You will not find a single reliable source in the article that does not state that the claims are false when introducing them. And yes, in articles on flat-earth theory, we do not introduce the theory without stating that it is false and disproven. Go have a look. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 20:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

My point being that you've gone overboard. If you'd politely requested the statement be added to the article, it likely would've been. Instead, you came in like a bull in a china shop, then threw a tantrum on the talk page. This ANI is entirely a result of your behavior. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

So you agree that there is a problem with an encyclopedia article that I've correctly pointed out, but in order to "punish" me for the way I requested it, you choose to allow the problem to go uncorrected. Fixing the encyclopedia content isn't a "reward" for me for good behavior; it is a benefit for the encyclopedia and the reader. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 11:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

THe IP should be banned from the page/talkpage, until after the 2024 US presidential election, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I have merely asked that Wikipedia adhere to its own policies and asked that Wikipedia neutrally abide by the language which the sources use. Can you say the same? Have you taken action to correct the gross violation of Wikipedia policy I have tirelessly pointed out and documented here? 67.82.74.5 (talk) 20:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

You're going about it the wrong way, by being a tad too passionate. Besides, such campaigns would naturally be tilted toward the positives of their candidates. Is there (for example) a lot of negative material in Biden's 2024 presidential campaign page? GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

No, it is in fact not appropriate that pages on political campaigns "be tilted toward the positives of their candidates." They should reflect the way the campaigns are described in reliable sources. That is my entire point. Since the reliable sources we cite in the article always describe Trump's claim that the election was "stolen" as a lie, so should we. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 11:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

We do call it a lie – plenty of times (more often than we don't, in fact). We don't need to shoehorn it into literally every instance, that's just bad writing. The article already makes it clear it's a false claim. — Czello ^(music) 11:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

It isn't bad writing that an encyclopedia article should state that knowingly false claims are false when it first introduces them. The passage in question should probably be put back into the lead as well. I don't know why such highly pertinent information is being buried so deep in the article. It's not the role of an encyclopedia to attempt to put a positive spin on things. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 11:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The very statement you're talking about links to Big lie and the very next sentence states that falsely asserted Trump had won the electoral college vote in those states. We don't need to beat readers over the head with it, it's pretty clear. — Czello ^(music) 11:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

All right. Let's hope so. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 12:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This noticeboard is not concerned with whether you are right or wrong about article content, but with your, and others', behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

You are not listening, which does not go over well at ANI. Had you simply made the suggestion, I may have supported it after looking through the archives to see if this had been previously discussed. (It’s obviously accurate; but I’m ambivalent about the need.) Instead you created an RFC without prior discussion that sounded more like a Trumpian speech than an RfC. So, I removed the RfC tag as malformed. I’ve now added the question to the talk page. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm sorry some of my remarks were intemperate. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This looks to have been a learning experience for IP. A lot of people start editing because they are Big Mad about this or that, but can get onboarded in short order. I encourage IP to register an account if they have no specific reason to avoid it. That can lower the noise level a little. Sennalen (talk) 20:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Seeking en masse rollback of disruptive edits

Is it possible to request a rollback of all the edits made by Oilcocaine since this one [66] (05:21 26 November)? Many of the user's early edits are improvements, but since this one [67] (19:09 24 November 2023), they have been almost all disruptive, many reverted by a variety of editors, all based on this one problem: articles in the "See also" section must have some relevance to the article in which they appear. The user has expressed their belief that ethnic groups which migrated centuries ago (mostly Dom and Romani) from the Indian subcontinent have a connection strong enough to warrant a "See also" of Romani people in Ireland to India–Ireland relations. Probably the biggest stretch is the repeated addition [68], [69] to Romani Holocaust (Nazi-era Europe) of "See also" List of massacres in India and Late Victorian Holocausts. The extended discussion on User Talk:Oilcocaine is probably the best overview of the problem and the justifications they have offered (e.g. [70]). A rollback may not be the best solution because, again, there's some baby in that bathwater, but the extent of disimprovement (dozens and dozens of edits across a broad range of articles), and the incorrigibility apparent in the user talk, suggests it would be a challenge to find a better one. Since this is not a black and white issue, I appreciate input and attention to this matter. Thanks. _signed, Willondon (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I think that the OP is working with ill motive. I will not say that there is an anti-Indian bias behind their actions, but it seems their fixation on slandering and subjugating a Wikipedian from India is behind this. MaiJodi Mk 1 (talk) 06:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)— MaiJodi Mk 1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

*chuckle* OK. _signed, Willondon (talk)

Are you suggesting that Wikipedians from India ought not to have to follow the same policies and guidelines as Wikipedians from anywhere else, and that they should be immunized against complaints of breaching them? There's nothing in the least "ill motived" about questioning the relevance of the mass murder of Romani in WWII to massacres in India and the Victorian period, nor of Romani-Irish relations to Indian-Irish relations, and if Oilcocaine is being intransigent on these and other issues, that's a problem that needs to be addressed. Ravenswing 07:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

(With that, it's not the least degree credible to see that this post is MaiJodi Mk 1's sole Wikipedia effort; sockpuppetry is plainly afoot.) Ravenswing 07:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I am not doing this for vandalization. I am doing this for navigational reason Oilcocaine (talk) 09:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Oilcocaine, if you would humor me and the point I'm about to make, I would really appreciate that. I think it might help to look at your edit history, but note your edits that have not been reverted. Many of them, including those related to Romani subjects and historical tragedies, have stayed right where they are. Why would we keep those if we had a deep bias against you or your intent to help spread information about these important topics? I really want to try and underline the underlying difference between each of your edits that have been reverted, and each that haven't, that you have a broader sense of what a useful connection means specifically for the See Also section.
There not being a link there does not mean two subjects are totally unrelated, it does not even mean the topics only share an unimportant connection. I don't think anyone here thinks that issues facing Romani historically are completely unrelated to those historically involving Indians. The connections are obvious, but they are of a lateral kind where if everybody applied this schema, there would be no point to the see also section, because many important connections would be there, but totalling too many to usefully navigate The point we've been making over and over is that the see also section has more specific guidelines for what should go there, based on how to best organize an encyclopedia in the context of what is not brought up in the article, but has a specific direct connection to the subject. Just because connections are abstract or indirect, like those faced among various prosecuted groups throughout human history, does not mean they are not real or are unimportant. Have you considered doing research for an article about the connections between Romani and Indian societal dynamics? You clearly care a lot about the subject. It is valuable to understand the connections you're trying to bring up with your edits, but they are not best expressed in the see also section. does that make sense? If you assemble sources and write an article directly itself about this connection, it could be very valuable to the site. Remsense留 00:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

A quick note to say that (1) there are "See also" edits that are not a problem, but that (2) among the ones that have not been reverted yet, there are many that I believe are wholly indefensible, but I have not reverted them pending the outcome here. I initiated this discussion (for chronic problematic behaviour) because in reverting the dozens of edits I felt to be unhelpful, there were (1) dozens more to go, and they kept accumulating because (2) Oilcocaine did not stop despite all the reverts, feedback, and warnings. I'm disappointed to see Oilcocaine continuing to edit the "See also" sections while the discussion plays out. I feel I've been charitable toward their behaviour, because I do see demonstrated potential to make productive edits to Wikipedia. And I have never suggested a block.

I can't speak for the others who have reverted and "finally warned", but perhaps like me, didn't "pull the trigger" because they appreciated some value in their edits. I see Oilcocaine as competent and of good intent. But, I suggest competence includes the ability to be aware of the cooperative environment in which they work, and an ability to respect and understand the opinions, insights and actions of other editors. I issued another "final" warning [71], and at this point, I'm prepared to ask for an indefinite block the next time they continue the behaviour that has me here trying to coordinate a surgical measure to correct and prevent further damage, rather than an outright block. _signed, Willondon (talk) 00:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Update: I've amended my request below. I went ahead and reverted 102 problem edits which I had graciously left until this process could run its course. _signed, Willondon (talk) 02:31, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support mass rollback, and some temporary topic ban may be needed. Also, there are wider issues outside the topic: to begin with, this user should start using edit summaries (they received warnings about that, but their replies ignored the point). Also, whatever the topic, they should (have) stop(ped) their "see also" additions when they realized such edits were at best controversial and were being reverted by multiple editors. Cavarrone 09:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose mass rollbacks unless the same be applied to non-Indian Wikipedians with the same zeal the above seems to want to do to Indian Wikipedians. Bali Mangti 1947 (talk) 11:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)— Bali Mangti 1947 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Definitely concerning. I'm looking at a history that is entirely addition of links to See Also (with a few main article links thrown in). The various references to European racism (cf. the user's talk page and this) make me suspect an agenda driven editor. I'm also not sure what to make of the two one-edit supporters who showed up here (meats? socks?). Add to that the fact that, despite the concerns expressed here, Oilcocaine continues to add see also links I'm thinking a not here block or at least a ban from adding links is warranted. RegentsPark (comment) 20:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Most of these should be reverted; Roma in Poland have little to nothing to do with India–Poland relations, on top of the potential concerning implications such a link has given debates about Roma status. The redirect Romani people in Central Asia to Lyuli also seems inappropriate, given the only mention of Roma on the Lyuli articles are statements that the Lyuli are not Roma. I just reverted this edit made while this AN/I was open, which while unrelated to Roma did add a See also link from a topic already linked (unpiped) in the article. CMD (talk) 01:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Update and amended request: I was hoping a rollback would avoid this, but the problem edits kept rolling, so I queued up Physical Graffiti (figured I'd need a double album) and went to work. I listed all of Oilcocaine's "current" edits and went through them judiciously [72]. I reverted 102 problem edits. I examined them all impartially, and made sure to tailor the edit summary, being aware with each revert what I was editing and why.

My amended request:

1. A rollback should no longer be necessary, as I've done it old-school.
2. I request at least a partial block of some sort, or
3. an indefinite block, based on persistent disruptive editing after plenty of feedback, engagement, and (often "final") warnings from at least three other users.

As in my previous post here [73], I suggest competence includes the ability to be aware of the cooperative environment in which they work, and an ability to respect and understand the opinions, insights and actions of other editors. Thanks to all who have spent the time looking in and providing input. _signed, Willondon (talk) 02:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Blocked. Since Oilcocaine has ignored several warning and continued to add inappropriate See also's, I have blocked them for two weeks, with a warning that the next block will be longer. (IMO, if another block for the same thing is needed, it should be indefinite.) Bishonen | tålk 15:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC).

Kosovo Security Force

Since at least May this year, a variety of accounts have tampered with Kosovo Security Force to add unsourced or malsourced material. They have occasionally edit warred to prevent the removal of this unverified content. Some of the claims they consistently add are that Kosovo has an air force (one went so far as to create Kosovo Air Force, which I sent to AfD as a hoax), that Kosovo is receiving Iowan Black Hawk helicopters, and unsourced content regarding what items Kosovo's troops are equipped with (with multiple accounts repeating the claim of secret military documents 1 2). They all edit in broken English (I am leotrim that's my name diff, Please do not remove the info if you have no clues diff), occasionally edit in a foreign language, give either no edit summary or ones that are effectively nonsensical, and generally utilize usernames including some arrangement of "illy". I'm not the only one who has caught on: ZLEA noted their concern on my talk page. I filed an SPI against some of the accounts on the 18th, but the CU backlog has prevented action. If possible, admin action is desperately needed here. I would also really appreciate an expedited CU. The accounts I believe involved are listed below with diffs of their sock/meat behavior:

• Leotrimylli (1, 2, 3)
• USIllyria. (1, 2)
• Illyrianzz (1, 2, 3)
• IllyStar (1, 2, 3)
• Eron Lushaj (Created Kosovo Air Force, 1, 2)
• Elmedinhajr (1, 2)
• Possibly Uniacademic, who matches the Kosovar-Albanian military focus of the other sock/meat puppets but has a longer history of editing and their claimed German residency does not align with the couple of Balkan IP addresses associated with others in the bunch (such as 46.99.127.82 for Eron Lushaj and 185.179.31.50 for Leotrimylli). See this diff of Uniacademic repeating the unsourced claim of helicopters. Also overlaps with IllyStar on Kosovo Police.

Thank you, ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I was actually writing an SPI report for several of the accounts listed above when I was pinged here. As I explained on Pbritti's talk page, the "Illy" usernames all seem to be in reference to Illyria, a historic region that includes modern-day Kosovo. I also noticed that four of the accounts (Illyrianzz, IllyStar, Eron Lushaj, and USIllyria.) seem to share a pattern of editing various Kosovo/Serbia-related articles before shifting their focus to Kosovo Security Force within the past few days/weeks, with most of their edits to the article (which Pbritti has already listed above) being unsourced or poorly sourced changes to the equipment section. I strongly suspect there to be sockpuppetry, or at the very least meatpuppetry, to be at play here. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I have added only sourced information there but someone is trying to delete also sourced informations, also some others have provided information without source but not me check my edits carefuly you will see links in every information. Illyrianzz (talk) 07:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Where are the sources in this edit? What about this one where you falsely claim that Kosovo has an air force? - ZLEA _T\^C 14:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Now an IP from the same are has tried to delete the AfD discussion banner three times: 1, 2, 3. This is an open-and-shut case of disruptive editing that needs to be addressed. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I found two more IPs that may be connected. Back on November 8, 46.99.118.13 added the "Kosovo Air Force" to the operators section of Baykar Bayraktar Akıncı. Shortly thereafter, 185.67.177.137 added the "Kosovo Air Force" to the article's infobox as well. Both IPs are registered in Pristina, Kosovo. - ZLEA _T\^C 23:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Also adding 185.179.31.75 trying to add back to Armend Mehaj (unsourced) pictures of awards uploaded and previously added by Eron Lushaj. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 13:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

It seems Eron Lushaj has kept a backup of Kosovo Air Force on their userpage and has restored the article. I've messaged the admin who deleted the original about the recreation. - ZLEA _T\^C 02:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Here is the supposed website of the "Kosovo Air Force" that was present on the recreated article. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that this is real. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Why am I even being mentioned here? Uniacademic (talk) 22:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Gologmine

Users (myself included) have repeatedly told this user not to add information using unreliable, questionable, or even no sources to articles, such as:

• Dulguun Odkhuu - repeatedly added back information after I told them it uses an unreliable source 1 2 3; they are aware of my edit summaries as proven in theirs. Claims I am vandalizing the article and wrongly templated me on my talk page.
• Khorgo - similar to the first instance. 4 Also templated user @AirshipJungleman29: 5.

There are more instances, but I have no time to list them all. Also worth mentioning is their responses on their talk page. Spinixster (chat!) 15:05, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• • +1. I think the prose/encyclopedic quality of this edit shows they do not meet WP:CIR standard. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Since removing a warning is de facto acknowledgment of it, I have blocked the user for 24 hours for edit warring, based on this edit, a 3RR violation. —C.Fred (talk) 16:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Edit-warring is only one of many problems this user has, and I suspect that a longer block is needed. The user not only insists on their edits, but attacks other editors (me included), calling their edits vandalism and slapping warnings on their Talk pages, some of which are completely irrelevant, e.g., accusing me of removing maintenance templates when I reverted their promotional/unreliably sourced edits.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Bbb23 I have extended an offer to reduce the block to a partial block on condition that they assume good faith and agree to engage in civil discussion. I think their response will be telling on how the community needs to proceed here. —C.Fred (talk) 16:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• Their unblock request contains accusations of sockpuppetry. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• I ask for some eyes on their talk page as well as their contributions now that they're unblocked - they're continuing to reply to users, seemingly without understanding Wikipedia's guidelines. Spinixster (chat!) 03:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

KlayCax repeated canvassing & edit warring behavior.

@KlayCax: recently engaged in an edit war, violating WP:3RR at the 2024 United States presidential election article. While they self-reverted so I assume they did not mean to violate it (even though they have a history of edit warring); they actively canvassed me to try to persuade me to undo their self revert. Please also note that our article falls under a contentious topic, which makes this behavior even more pressing to address.

Here are examples of KlayCax canvassing: [74] [75][76][77]

Here are attempts by me to warn KlayCax not to canvass. (Please note that in addition to the warnings on their talk page, I have also given them several warnings on article talk pages): [78][79] Prcc27 (talk) 16:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello. I've been busy at residency. The edits were reverted days ago. @Prcc27:.

Asking what aspect of the edit you objected to is not canvassing. Per the definition: Canvassing refers to notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way. None of that has applied here. Per WP: ONUS, changes that are disputed by editors shouldn't be instituted into the article without consensus, which adding Democrats/Republicans to the infobox indisputably does, as the discussion page shows. KlayCax (talk) 04:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

This was unquestionably a canvassing incident. As for the other incident, I never said I objected to removing the red and blue bars; I am not the user that re-added them. However, I did tell you to self-revert, not necessarily because I agreed or disagreed with your edits, but because you made 4 (then 5) reverts in less than 24 hours. Do you honestly not see how it is disruptive to edit-war, then self-revert when you realize you crossed 3RR, but then try to bypass 3RR by persuading a user to undo your self-revert? It would have been more appropriate to make your argument at the article’s talk page, instead of pinging me at your talk page and trying to make your argument there. Also, you have been canvassing on circumcision related topics too, which I called you out for in the past. So it’s not like you haven’t been warned about this behavior. Prcc27 (talk) 06:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Requesting TPA removal of User:Christom2

Pretty self explanatory. They're blocked but are adding violations of NPA and antisemitism. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 19:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, please make whatever ugly stuff they're saying stop ASAP. Remsense留 19:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Done, and edits revdel'd. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 19:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Sca – partial block request

It's been over a year (14 13 months) since I was banned from ITN/C because of an ill-considered, flippant remark on Oct. 26, 2022, that was misconstrued by some as a racial or ethnic slur. As I've said repeatedly, nothing could have been further from my mind at the time. I am committed to equal rights and equal respect for all, regardless of ethnicity or LGBTQ identity, as can be seen from my user page.

I apologize to any who took my errant post as a slur or insult. I vow never again to post anything that could be taken as an ethnic or racial slur.

Since the partial ban was imposed, I've quietly continued involvement in other areas of Wikipedia, notably WP:FPC, and engaged in random copy-editing of articles I encountered elsewhere, making around 800 contributions.

With respect, may I suggest that it's time to reconsider (and hopefully rescind) this partial block on a volunteer who's been a user for almost 20 years and has contributed thousands of edits.

Thank you for your consideration. I look forward to working with you all in a polite, collegial, friendly and productive manner. – Sca (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

13 months, not 14. For those who are interested, the discussion that led to the block is here, and the previous unblock request is here. --JBL (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sca, much of the discussion that led to your block was about other alleged disruptive behavior of yours at ITN. Do you have any comment? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

As background, there was a time a decade or so back when there was much pejorative and disparaging talk at ITN/C and on talk pages by various users, including some admins. Fortunately, this is no longer the case.

Now: My approach to ITN, if allowed, would be sober and carefully considered. Also, I would be less prolific, i.e. I would lessen the number of comments I would make. I think that, if the pblock were rescinded, I would give myself some time to observe ITN/C before participating.

I certainly would make every effort to get along with all who are active there. – Sca (talk) 19:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sca, could you explain why you denied the blindingly obvious in the discussion that led to the block? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

It may have been blindingly obvious to some, but in all honesty, whether you or others believe it or not, I was not thinking at the time of a racial/ethnic slur. To me, it was a sort wordplay with another user. You may not accept this, but it's true. Needless to say, it was and is very much regretted, and I apologize for the lack of judgment on my part that it so woefully displayed. -- Sca (talk) 20:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Give enough rope I think people were primed to think the worst in that ANI; I really don't think the possibility that it was a political jab, rather than an ethnic one, as being so inconceivable either. If the issue at hand is possible racism, I see no reason to give Sca some WP:ROPE. If it really was a misunderstanding with nothing to do with insensitivity, the odds of this happening again are slim to astronomical. If it wasn't, then it probably won't be long until its spotted again, and they can be summarily p-blocked again. But I also think if the community feels the greater issue is just being too much of a jokester at ITNC, then I suppose the current block was the end of the rope. GabberFlasted (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps it would reassure any who distrust me to learn that one of my current reads is "A Square of Sky", per Amazon the "story of a Jewish child's survival in wartime Poland, while the rest of her family were killed by the Nazis" The heroine survived because she was taken in by a Catholic convent. A compelling story. (Eland Publishing, 2005.) – Sca (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. The joke was explained thus: since Xi Jinping is a totalitarian whose dictatorship was guaranteed to continue, the ITN blurb regarding his reelection should say he was "erected" instead of "elected." The only way this works as a joke is if it mocks the inevitability of Xi's victory and I can think of dozens of words, "installed" foremost among them, that would have worked far better than "erected," which is a word no English speaker would use to describe what happened. So I think my opposition here is per User:Sca. In one of their messages here, they said "whether you or others believe it or not" and "You may not accept this" and I interpret those phrases to mean that, since I don't believe it, I shouldn't support this request. City of Silver 21:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, City, your reasoning doesn't seem logical to me. But you have a right to your opinion and the right to express it. So I'm going to thank your for you comment anyway. Adieu. -- Sca (talk) 21:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to give you a quick tip and say if you continue to respond individually to every single comment or !=vote here with your personal thoughts or anecdotes, you are going to wear out any patience people have for you. At the rate you're on you will undoubtedly be called out for bludgeoning the process. GabberFlasted (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Duly advised. Thanks for the tip. I've had enough for a while anyway. – Sca (talk) 22:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

One question, Sca: you maintained at the time, and apparently continue to maintain, that "nothing could have been further from my mind" than the idea that your comment could have been interpreted as racist. How, then, are you planning to ensure that you never again "post anything that could be taken as an ethnic or racial slur"? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 23:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The topic is quite clearly in my mind due to this incident, and I expect will remain so. -- Sca (talk) 14:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - Sca was p-blocked not only for the specific off-color joke being discussed, but also because the purpose of his participation at WP:ITN/C seemed to be to share his personal opinion on news stories and make jokes and asides (WP:FORUM) rather than help improve and highlight quality articles relating to current events (see first paragraph of WP:ITN). A review of his contributions since then doesn't offer much evidence to suggest that he is now WP:HERE.

His contributions at WP:FPC seem largely to be subjective personal opinions in the form of comments based more on what pictures he would like to see on the main page than the WP:Featured picture criteria. Many of his other edits are to WP:ERRORS as an alternative way to influence content on the main page and to user talk pages (especially his own), with comparatively few copyedits (that don't always seem helpful) mixed in.

Therefore, I don't think allowing Sca to return to ITN/C would be beneficial until he demonstrates that his intentions are to build an encyclopedia rather than using Wikipedia as a forum to share his opinions. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 17:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

My intention is to help build the encyclopedia. One thing I do in this respect is change verb tenses to past tense -- except when the article is developing around a current event or is otherwise in a state of flux. -- Sca (talk) 18:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I think taking a step back to consider whether your broader editing patterns and behavior have matched that intention would be beneficial. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, for now "We at Wikipedia have no sense of humor we are aware of." Also, showing; not telling.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  I've learned, and changed my conception of Wiki to a more serious or businesslike one. -- Sca (talk) 16:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Didnt you say you were going to stop responding to every oppose? I understand the instinct, I really do, but you are absolutely killing the very slight chance this appeal had to begin with. If you want to appeal a sanction on Wikipedia, you do these things. 1. Show you can edit productively elsewhere. 2. Admit fault, do not re-litigate, justify, downplay, or otherwise dismiss the issue. Do not badger opposers. Thats it, thats the secret recipe. You may still not get it overturned, but if you dont do these things you definitely will not. nableezy - 17:31, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Davethorp

User:Davethorp has been intractable on Talk:Strictly Come Dancing (series 21) with a steady stream of personal insults, including, for example, labeling edits as "vandalism" simply because they disagree with them (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Strictly_Come_Dancing_(series_21)&diff=prev&oldid=1185630496 & https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Strictly_Come_Dancing_(series_18)&curid=64408487&diff=1187382975&oldid=1187378976, among others). Their issue seems to be regarding the inclusion of one table (an average score table) which I have long stopped arguing about since the nice folks at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard confirmed that the means used to generate the data for the table do not violate WP:OR. I don't know what they are still carping about, but today they blanket-reverted several articles to the "last good version" (whatever...) that erases the work that went into bringing those articles into compliance with the MOS. I explained the changes here: Talk:Strictly Come Dancing (series 21)#Compliance with Wikipedia MOS, and received no complaints other than that one table. In fact, other suggestions were implemented, but User:Davethorp insists on undoing everything while throwing around threats and personal insults ("If you don’t think that calculating the mean of some numbers is a routine calculation then that probably says more about your maths ability. Thankfully you don’t need to do the maths. I’m sure someone else will be more than happy to do it for you...").

I have received nothing but personal insults, harassing phone calls, my personal information posted here on Wikipedia, and a heinous death threat so severe that Wikipedia felt compelled to contact my local police department by users in the U.K. over this fucking TV show. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Pinging User:Ponyo she since is at least aware of some of this nonsense. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) "Death threats"? "Harassing phone calls?" This user is really starting to piss me off already. @Bgsu98, read this page now, it will guide you with what to do in your case. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 22:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I already did all of that when those things took place. I enjoyed being woken up in the middle of the night by my local police department inquiring as to whether I was still alive... Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

And this has what to do with me? If you’ve received death threats that’s unacceptable but nothing to do with me or the dispute we have Davethorp (talk) 22:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

And this has what to do with me? But didn't you actually do it? You sent them; logically, you are the only suspect here. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 23:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea who is behind everything. But it all stems from this fucking TV show. Like, seriously... touch some grass or get some fucking fresh air. I can't imagine getting so bent out of shape over a dance show's Wikipedia article. Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:05, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

OK OK, slow down, what the hell? Have you read WP:PROFANEDISCUSSIONS? I'm literally the spectator in the Colosseum watching a tiger (you) aggressively fighting the gladiator (Davethorp). The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 23:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Erm excuse me. What are you accusing me of here. [Legal threat redacted] by Patient Zero^talk. I’ve literally done nothing here but have been accused of sending someone death threats which I’ve never done Davethorp (talk) 23:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to help. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 23:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

You literally said I was the only suspect In something that may well be made up

Sounds Like an accusation to me Davethorp (talk) 23:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Trust & Safety department has all the details. Nothing has been made up. Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

So given this ANI and some arguments that have been made against me you have evidence that I made these threats?

Didn’t think so but if you do have evidence of that please do share. Otherwise it’s not relevant to this vexatious ANI Davethorp (talk)| Davethorp (talk) 23:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

By all means delete the swearing though. Not like it shows on edit histories or anything Davethorp (talk) 00:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Wow

Your edits on the articles concerned have been shown as going against concensus on the talk page

If anyone has had an issue with the concencus of Wikipedia it is you. You were told average score tables were compliant with WP:CALC. You didn’t accept that and ignored the opinion of two editors and took it to WP:NORN who also told you they were subject to the same

You Continued not to accept this and described the inclusion of the average score tables as “idiotic” in your edit summary. You also demonstrated incivility violations to me in that time including failing to retract a rolled eye emoji

I stated I considered your edits vandalism and got no response so started to revert them which then led to this ANI all of which is of your making ——- Davethorp (talk) 22:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not dignifying your garbage comments any longer. I responded by telling you that edits you don't personally like do not constitute "vandalism", yet you have continued to throw that term around. As far as consensus goes, there was an RfC in 2021 which addressed this issue: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television/Archive 12#RfC about elimination-style reality programs. Per that RfC, "There is a consensus that in articles about elimination-style reality television programs... tables should comply with accessibility guidelines." Local consensus cannot override these requirements. Over the past year or so, there has been a concerted effort to bring the articles of these reality TV programs into compliance with the MOS. And again, your only complaint seems to be about the Average Chart, which the last time I checked, is ON THE FUCKING ARTICLE. In fact, after the OR people confirmed it did not constitute original research, rather than pursue the matter, edit-war, or whatever, I actually formatted the table to bring it into compliance and last week corrected it, because even though it was a "routine calculation", somehow two score totals divided by the same number of dances yielded two different averages. So, is there any complaint other than the Average Chart which was long dealt with? Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I’m not going to dignify this with more of a response than it needs to

You have demonstrated that you don’t accept that the average score tables meet WP:CALC. This is shown on the series 21 talk page and your edits on that article. This is all any objective admin needs to see Davethorp (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, you are carping about the Average Score chart, which has been present on Strictly Come Dancing (series 21) since September 23: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Strictly_Come_Dancing_(series_21)&diff=prev&oldid=1176760214 Why on earth are you still going on about it when it was re-added two months ago. I am so against that table that I spent time I would rather use doing almost anything else to a) format it properly so it meets the requirements of the MOS, and b) do the math properly since someone else was unable to? Does that make any sense? Have I removed the table? You're upset that I asked for an opinion at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard? Isn't that what we would want Wikipedia editors to do: seek out confirmation of policy at the appropriate forum? I don't know what on earth your grievance is at this point. Despite being informed by User:Ponyo that your blanket reversions contrary to MOS:ACCESS were disruptive and also deleted administrative protection templates (User talk:Davethorp#November 2023), you did it again. Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

And all anyone with a degree of impartiality needs to do is look at the Strictly Come Dancing series 21 talk page. Right at the bottom

You never accepted the concensus against you. If you had we wouldn’t be here Davethorp (talk) 23:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"You guys wanted this chart, so please explain to me how two different dancers with the same number of cumulative points and the same number of performed dances have two different averages. Also, the second column says Rank by average, yet they are ranked by elimination order. Make it make sense. Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC)"
🤷‍♂️ Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

And as I commented then your disdain for the accuracy of the chart came 9 minutes after the published end time for the show at a time the article was being heavily edited

Hardly the attitude of someone who had accepted that concensus had gone against them when it came to the average score chart but more the attitude of someone looking for a reason to remove it despite the concensus Davethorp (talk) 00:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Did I remove it? No, I edited it. What is your problem? Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I’m not the one with a problem. You brought this here

I’m also not the one using foul language in their comments here which could be considered an incivility violation. Rather like the rolled eyes you declined to retract on the talk page for series 21 of Strictly Come Dancing Davethorp (talk) 00:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

By all means delete the swearing though. Not like it shows on edit histories Davethorp (talk) 00:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Stop. There's already almost no chance someone is going to read all of this. Each response cuts that already slim chance down even further. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Can someone please explain, using short, unadorned sentences, what's going on here? The next profane comment catches a block. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 01:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Davethorp has engaged in disruptive editing and personal insults (for example, describing edits he doesn’t like as “vandalism”) despite instructions from an administrator (User:Ponyo) to cease. He has also refused to drop the stick by continuing to insist that I am trying to delete a specific table that has existed intact at Strictly Come Dancing (series 21) for over two months. Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

And to counter user Bgsu98 has engaged in disruptive edits on the same article and a refusal to accept concensus. The tables they mention have stayed in the article as they say but they’ve taken every opportunity to show their disdain for it both in edit summaries and on the talk page rather than just accepting it and moving on

Some wild and frankly false (Davethorp (talk)) 07:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC) accusations have also been thrown around in this ANI discussion suggesting I made death threats to the user when I’ve done nothing of the sort. Bgsu98 on the other hand has resorted to foul language Davethorp (talk) 04:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mackensen: Davethorp has been asked more than once to stop issuing legal threats yet they believe that the part of WP:NLT that says "A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat" means they can keep flinging the word libel and variations around. City of Silver 05:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Very well, in the interest of avoiding something that may be perceived as a legal threat, though in no way was intended to be, I retract and apologise for my use of the word libellous or other derivatives

That said there are a number of false and misleading accusations concerning me both in the original post on this discussion and the discussions which immediately followed it and I ask that they be corrected. I believe that’s the correct way to go about it looking over the policy linked more in depth now it’s not the middle of the night here Davethorp (talk) 07:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, appreciated. Are there diffs that substantiate the various claims? Mackensen (talk) 12:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

[[80]] shows bgsu98 referring to the inclusion of an average score table as being “idiotic” despite it complying with WP:CALC

[[81]] shows bgsu98 again criticising the average score table as being inaccurate 9 minutes after the show had ended at a time when the article was being updated by other editors

Bgsu98 has also removed a lot of long standing information from all of the series articles on Strictly Come Dancing that they view as being “fancruft” but many editors disagreed but it’s very much become a case of we’re doing it their way and tough if you object

As for the false accusations and misleading that misled another editor into believing that I had been sending bgsu98 death threats the first few comments in this ANI should be sufficient Davethorp (talk) 12:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

From my original post on this thread (edited for length): User:Davethorp has been intractable on Talk:Strictly Come Dancing (series 21) with a steady stream of personal insults, including, for example, labeling edits as "vandalism" simply because they disagree with them (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Strictly_Come_Dancing_(series_21)&diff=prev&oldid=1185630496 & https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Strictly_Come_Dancing_(series_18)&curid=64408487&diff=1187382975&oldid=1187378976, among others). Their issue seems to be regarding the inclusion of one table… which I have long stopped arguing about since… Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard confirmed that the means used to generate the data for the table do not violate WP:OR. I don't know what they are still carping about, but today they blanket-reverted several articles to the "last good version"… that erases the work that went into bringing those articles into compliance with the MOS. I explained the changes here: Talk:Strictly Come Dancing (series 21)#Compliance with Wikipedia MOS, and received no complaints other than that one table…User:Davethorp insists on undoing everything while throwing around threats and personal insults ("If you don’t think that calculating the mean of some numbers is a routine calculation then that probably says more about your maths ability. Thankfully you don’t need to do the maths. I’m sure someone else will be more than happy to do it for you..."). Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks all. Many of these diffs and the talk page discussion are from September. They're messy, but they're in the past. I don't think you two should talk to each other, but what's the present dispute? Mackensen (talk) 00:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The issue that prompted this rigamarole in the first place was User:Davethorp's blanket reversions to months-old versions of the following articles: Strictly Come Dancing (series 20), Strictly Come Dancing (series 19), and Strictly Come Dancing (series 18). These reverted to non-compliant states that were in violation of MOS:ACCESS among other MOS policies (MOS:COLOR, MOS:DTAB, etc.). His argument was that "consensus" had not been reached, when it had (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television/Archive 12#RfC about elimination-style reality programs). The necessary changes were outlined here: Talk:Strictly Come Dancing (series 21)#Compliance with Wikipedia MOS. Aside from the issue of the one table (Average Score Chart) which, as you said and as I've also said, was settled back in September, Davethorp did not raise any other objections; yet his blanket reversions undid all of those MOS edits. Finally, his persistent use of the word "vandalism" to justify his reversions (describing my edits as "vandalism", etc. just because he didn't personally like them) was also what prompted this filing. Bgsu98 (Talk) 07:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

And from my side the issue is that despite the issue of the average score tables, as you say, being over two months ago there are still signs that bgsu98 hasn’t accepted that in their edits or edit summaries since which I gave two examples of. This is disruptive and Wikipedia:Listen seems to apply here.

As I said above bgsu98 has also removed a lot of long standing useful information from the articles in question labelling it as “Fancruft”. Whenever anyone has tried to oppose this, and there has been opposition from some editors, they’ve been met with an attitude of basically “tough, this is how it is now”. What should have happened before this long standing information was deleted, and one other editor confirmed this on the talk page, was that they should have sought opinions on the relevant talk pages before deleting this long standing and useful, I myself make use of it for my job, information. Again bgsu98 doesn’t seem to Wikipedia:Listen to what other editors are telling them

My edits may have been a little heavy handed, and for that I apologise, however it was done with the intention of reverting the data that bgsu98 removed so there could be some discussion, as others have said there should have been, before it was removed again and I only did it on a small number of articles to test the water rather than the whole subset of 20 articles.

I also agree Mackensen that going forward it would be best if me and bgsu98 avoided interacting. Unfortunately it’s hard when they’ve effectively taken control of articles that I regularly refer to for my day job. If bgsu98 actually listened to the community concensus concerning the average score tables rather than taking every opportunity to knock them and show that they aren’t happy with the concensus that was reached then I could probably accept the removal of the rest of the information from those articles and things probably wouldn’t have flared up in the way they did Davethorp (talk) 09:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "long-standing information" you are referring to, but perhaps you have Wikipedia confused with a fansite (WP:NOTDATABASE). Might I suggest you check out https://strictlycomedancing.fandom.com/wiki/Strictly_Come_Dancing if you want to track who has the highest-scoring tango or what dance netted Joe Schmo his lowest score. Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I won’t engage with the response too much as Mackensen made it clear that it would be best if we don’t engage each other, something I’m in total agreement with

However I find it interesting that whilst I was fairly pragmatic in my last reply above and trying to work on a solution that you again go out on the attack and again declaring the long standing information you removed to be fancruft or better suited on a fan site and it has to be your way or the highway no matter how many editors object

Perhaps I’m not the problem here Davethorp (talk) 10:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Stonewalling by Beyond My Ken

I am currently dealing with stonewalling (and hostility) from Beyond My Ken over an edit to Induced demand (my change) that I would have thought was rather uncontroversial.

I have attempted to reconcile disagreement on the article talk page (Talk:Induced demand#Lead paragraph), where the user refused to explain what part of the content change he disagreed with, and insisted that I find consensus. I followed his demand, and sought consensus on the talk page (Talk:Induced demand#Consensus seeking). No other editor raised objections (or support). Beyond My Ken insists that changes are not needed, but has still not explained what was wrong with the change, or why we should not explain terms introduced in the lead.

I briefly attempted to address the user at his talk page, pointing to the problems with reverting based on “no consensus” (User talk:Beyond My Ken#Attitude). I was met with the accusation that I want to “fuck up a Wikipedia article”, and subsequently had my signature vandalized on both pages ([82] and [83]).

I suspect, based on previous reverts ([84]) and talk discussion (Talk:Induced demand#Removal of my changes to Induced Demand) that I have stumbled into Beyond My Ken attempting to “defend” the page (or his version of the page, which obviously would be problematic WP:OWNERSHIP). I didn’t stop to investigate other edits for who was “right”, but Beyond My Ken does not appear interested in engaging with other editors in discussion, or elaborating on his actual disagreements to seek meaningful consensus. — HTGS (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I took a quick look and while I won't comment on the substance of your request (BMK), I should point out that beginning every response with a ping is a bit passive aggressive and not exactly conducive to a calm discussion. FYI. Also the "fucking up" comment was in response to rather ill placed humor on your part. RegentsPark (comment) 01:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken if he's fuck[ing] up the article, then it's reasonable to expect that you'll explain how he proposes to do so on Talk:Induced demand. It's difficult to build consensus when senior editors don't contribute to the discussion. Mackensen (talk) 01:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

+1 Paul August ☎ 01:30, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@HTGS: Wikipedia:Third opinion, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard, and Wikipedia:Requests for comment are all possibilities for broadening participation. Mackensen (talk) 01:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I didn’t (don’t) see the change to content as the main issue, so much as BMK’s continued refusal to engage with the substantive issue. — HTGS (talk) 03:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:AGF, I believe those changes to your signature were mistakes, not vandalism. Several of BMK's messages in that thread contain similar, uh, oddities. City of Silver 01:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

That is a fair assessment, and one I had been working with. I probably should have couched my initial comment there with less certainty; please don’t take it as a primary concern. (Assuming good faith is an exercise that gets harder as frustration grows. As readers will no doubt understand, I got here in final frustration, but I will take the lesson.) — HTGS (talk) 03:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Propose this be closed with no action.

There's fault on both sides, but nothing to get worked up about. BMK could have provided a single substantive objection, e.g., "The definitions are unnecessary" rather than the unsupported, if correct, assertion, that it "does not improve the article". This would have put us quite a bit higher on the hierarchy of disagreement. However, disengaging what BMK thought to be an adversarial editor is exactly what we're told to do, so it's difficult to fault that.

HTGS did come off as somewhat abrasive with the repeated pings, the title of the BMK talk page section "Attitude", and the ill-fated attempt at humor, plus some WP:BLUDGEONy behavior in the talk page. However, BMK's refusal to engage also left few avenues for good faith attempts to improve the article.

Both editors were acting in good faith, rubbed each other the wrong way, and now there's a discussion on the article talk. Nothing more to do here.EducatedRedneck (talk) 20:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this is a minor affair. That said, my concern here is that this is a pattern that we've seen with BMK before, including cases where there's no possible concern about the behavior of the other editor. Specifically, an editor proposes a change, BMK objects, the editor asks what's wrong with the change, BMK tells the editor to go get consensus for the change without really engaging on the substantive issue. It can look like bludgeoning because the other editor keeps trying to engage, and BMK has at times (including this one), set some pretty strict limits on their engagement.

Let's set out a sequence of events here:

1. User A edits article.
2. User B reverts the edit.
3. User A raises the matter on the talk page.

Leaving aside outright vandalism, I think we'd expect User B to explain their objection. This is a collaborative project. If User A and User B go in circles, it's not unheard of for User A to wander over to User B's talk page to figure out why they're talking past each other. I've certainly done that. If User B refuses to engage User A on their talk page (which is User B's right), then User A is kinda stuck unless (1) someone watching article decides to put an oar in or (2) they pursue one of the other options I listed above. It's possible for User B to make the cost of change for User A rather high without really doing anything. Maybe that's okay. Per WP:ONUS, the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Emphasis added. Without a substantive objection there isn't really a dispute. WP:OWN and WP:EPTALK go into this. In my view, and I think policy backs me up on this, reverting a good-faith change creates a responsibility on the part of that person to explain the revert substantively if someone challenges it. Mackensen (talk) 20:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Mackensen here, it's exceptionally poor behaviour on Beyond My Ken's part. When you revert a change, it's reasonable for the reverted editor to ask why; in fact that approach is recommended in several places such as WP:EW and WP:BRD. If you respond that a change is "not an improvement", it's reasonable for the other editor to ask you to elaborate. It seems to me that HTGS did a reasonable job of explaining why they felt their changes were an improvement, and also explained their rationale and asked for BMK's input on an acceptable way forward, and BMK just basically said "no" and expected that to be the end of the discussion. It looks very much like BMK opposed for the sake of opposing and for no other reason, and then refused repeatedly to discuss, and bluntly refusing to discuss is not the fait accompli BMK seems to think it is. Later, after HTGS started an expanded discussion to which they invited BMK (BMK again opposed for no other reason than to be in opposition; a clearly tendentious argument by that point) there appears to be consensus emerging against the proposal, but those editors gave reasons that HTGS could respond to, and since there's actually a discussion things are moving forward productively. If BMK doesn't want to participate in that discussion then so be it, but their repeatedly saying "no" with no attempt to explain and no followup is very clear WP:STONEWALLING. Frankly, if BMK was not as experienced as they are, I would consider pblocking them from the page. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Also note BMK's comment here (since reverted), in which they cast a bunch of aspersions about HTGS' motivations, and said they would participate in a consensus-seeking discussion once HTGS started one. That comment was left here just shy of three full days after HTGS had already started a discussion, a day and a half after HTGS pinged BMK to comment in it, and roughly a day after BMK's last hand-wave opposed-for-the-sake-of-opposing comment. I would like to see an explanation for all of this, although I don't expect one to be forthcoming. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Could you please respond to the above concerns expressed by Mackensen and Ivanvector above? Paul August ☎ 19:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

GPTZero

@Comintell: has been removing my contributions from GPTZero page. The reason he cites is he says that even though my reference link is reliable, it can't be used because it's not primary / secondary source. The thing is, we don't need primary and secondary source for this page, the link shows a write up on an algorithm, and shows how exactly it works. Tried talking to talkpage on his talk page, but he is not listening. Moreover, 95% of his contributions on Wikipedia are pages, which are taken down as promotions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.55.68.245 (talk) 03:47, 29 Nov 2023 (UTC)

To the IP user: are you sure you want to proceed with this report? You've acknowledged that you're attempting to add original research to the article, if I follow what you're saying by a "write up on an algorithm". Further, as Comintell has said before, Github is not a reliable source. —C.Fred (talk) 03:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello @C.Fred, what a divine comedy the internet is! IP user 182.55.68.245 seems to be located in Singapore. (Redacted)

To me it seems the IP user 182.55.68.245 was abusing Wikipedia in order to promote a Github repo that is in no way shape or form relevant to the page. This is just my opinion. Comintell (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC) And this is outing. Don't do it again. ​ Primefac (talk) 14:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I aim to ensure that the article maintains a neutral tone. At present, it appears to resemble a promotional piece authored by the GPTZero team. I will provide links to pertinent articles highlighting instances where GPTZero has exhibited inappropriate behavior and produced inaccurate results 182.55.68.245 (talk) 14:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Not a valid argument. Maybe valid to someone who hasn't been editing on wiklpedia for even a day and doesn't know the rules. Comintell (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Primefac Thanks, I didn't know and only had good intentions in mind. Comintell (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

No worries, it can sometimes tricky to find the balance between a generic "this IP clearly has a COI" and actually giving the details of how you know that. Primefac (talk) 20:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

You're right. My intention was to justify and disclose the process behind the analysis as not to make baseless accusations. I will keep this in mind. Thank you again. Comintell (talk) 20:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Death Editor 2 edits

In this Death Editor 2 (talk · contribs) continues WP:TE regarding his desire to add the word fraudster to the LEAD and this violates BLP 1RR rules. Another editor GreenC (talk · contribs) has been beyond patient with Death Editor. Content currently under discussion at Talk:Sam_Bankman-Fried#Is_“fraudster”_appropriate_wikivoice? and at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Sam_Bankman-Fried_and_"fraudster". However, this discussion is meant to discuss the specific WP:TE behavior of the editor Death Editor. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: I think an editor ~10 months old, with ~1,500 edits (over two accounts, see declaration on userpage) that has accumulated these talk page histories User talk:Death Editor 2 and User talk:Death editor has shown they are NOTHERE and shows every sign they will continue to WP:TE and ignore CT policy. Disclaimer: I have had issues in the past with this editor.  // Timothy :: talk  06:54, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment recent record:

• 6 October 2023: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1140#User_Death_Editor_2_on_SpaceX_Starship_Flight_Tests
• 14 October 2023: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1140#Death_editor2_and_edit_warring_under_WP:ARBPIA
• 14 October 2023: Blocked 1 week for edit warring User_talk:Death_Editor_2#October_2023
• 12 November 2023: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1142#User_talk:Death_Editor_2_(...and_User_talk:Death_editor)
• 28 November 2023: Reverted a BLP 1RR two times in 24hrs while talk discussions were still ongoing, about the word "fraudster": Special:Diff/1187367657/1187393930 Special:Diff/1186982001/1187273239 for which some consensus exists is a BLP violation, generally, per this RfC.

Plus other conflict boards, and various warnings and edit warring disputes (talk page). -- GreenC 07:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I noticed this as Death Editor and another editor seemed to be engaging in WP:SEALION and GreenC was doing his best to humor them at Talk:Sam_Bankman-Fried#Is_“fraudster”_appropriate_wikivoice?. But I felt it was going too far, then I chimed in, then I raised this ANI as I noticed the editor was continuing to revert while doing SEALION, so it seemed to put the good faith part into question. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• p-blocked from Sam Bankman-Fried for continuing to add "fraudster" while there is ongoing discussion of whether it's an appropriate use in a BLP. Valereee (talk) 17:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• I note that Death Editor seems to have followed GreenC to my Talk page User_talk:Bdushaw#Fraudster to interject an opinion. I've not been involved at all with the article in question. Bdushaw (talk) 12:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Rungsung4's personal attack on me & misbehaves

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Rungsung4 said something bad about me here in an edit summary while manually reverting my edits. It was a personal attack explicitly. During their revert, they were re-bringing the removed unsourced contents (excluding one source which is a tourism promotional material) in the article Talui, and later didn't even add any sources or citations. I left a message on their talk page here suggesting them not to personally harass me while also informing them about a revert of one or more of their edit(s). They didn't reply anything but started reverting my edit here once again. I don't want to engage in an edit war. So, I left a message regarding ANI notice in their talk page here. Regards! Haoreima (talk) 07:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

In the past, this user was remarked for violating WP:CHU by doing self renaming, which was later reverted by User:Train2104, here.

• I've indefinitely blocked Rungsung4 (see block log for details). I've also reverted the material they added to Talui, the only article they're interested in, as unsourced blatant promotion.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Evidence of a Battleground Mentality and possibly WP:SPASOCK user.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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In the discussion on the Religious views of Adolf Hitler article, the user "Ithinkusergoeshere," who engaged in numerous edit wars with me over a minor revision addressing redundancy in the content by concise wording, has now escalated the situation by making a racist and prejudiced remark implying intellectual disability in countries associated with my background. This comment follows a series of WP:personal attacks both on the article's talk page and on the user's talk page.

Furthermore, he is now indicating his intention to exacerbate the situation by adding additional content with the explicit aim of provoking me demonstrating WP:BATTLEGROUNDMENTALITY. 182.183.53.207 (talk) 08:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm making racist and prejudice remarks regarding intellectual disability in countries associated with your background?? I don't know what your background is Sir or Madam. Hell I don't even know if you're a man or a woman, I was just making a simple observation regarding IQ levels. I do apologize if it caused any offence towards you.

I don't see how adding additional content to the page would be an explicit aim of trying to provoke you. If anything this should be something that you should be happy about as you have such a strong admiration for the topic. Ithinkusergoeshere (talk) 08:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

No comment on the content dispute, but this edit [85] by Ithinkusergoeshere on their talk page is indeed a direct personal attack. Calling another editor a "low IQ individual" warrants an immediate block in my opinion. Meters (talk) 09:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Calling another editor a "low IQ individual" warrants an immediate block in my opinion. Agreed; there are no circumstances where it is appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 09:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

(ec)Just to clarify, the talk page comment was in response to an edit warring warning about the edits to Religious views of Adolf Hitler and refers to the IP OP. Meters (talk) 09:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

your low IQ is showing . . . I'm struggling to understand your intellectual level here[86]

You've already outed yourself. You seem very upset with what Albert Speer had to say about Hitler's views on your religion. You know IQ is a funny thing, did you know that some countries in the world have an average IQ level or a borderline level that would classify them as having a intellectual disability (formerly classified as mental retardation in the DSM-5) in the United States. Nothing needed to be trimmed or anything like that, your motives have been well established by now.[87]

There's also some comments that assume bad faith that the IP's edits are solely motivated by their own personal views on Islam which can be easily found in Ithinkusergoeshere's edit history, but these are more egregious personal attacks. — Czello ^(music) 09:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Indeffed by TheresNoTime. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:32, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated disruptive editing by Betelgueseboy

User:Betelgueseboy continues to create pages without references (see User talk:Betelgueseboy and add unreferenced info to existing pages ([88], [89], [90]. Despite warnings, they do not respond and continue to edit. glman (talk) 14:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Not an admin, but shouldn't this be in Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism? AkiyamaKana (talk) 14:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I see it already is now, added by another user. It will probably be seen more quickly in the designated space, though. AkiyamaKana (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! That's my bad - I wasn't sure where this fit. glman (talk) 16:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Repeated deletions and significant unsourced changes to Apple Vision Pro

I've noticed a lot of IP editors show up on this page and remove various chunks of prose and insist the device has been cancelled without any sourcing or edit summaries. They also tend to break the page completely. Should this IP be blocked or could we just protect the page? Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

It appears to be the same range that is making the disruptive edits. I gave a warning to last IP and am watching the page. If it continues a range block may be in order. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I just did a partial range block on that page. They're not going to read the talk pages. Canterbury Tail talk 16:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

And that works too. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate the snappy response. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Alomomola and common names of fish

User:Alomomola has repeatedly created articles about fish species with invented common names. The scientific name named in the article will be correct, but the common name false. Both I and User:Skarmory tried to engage with them at User_talk:Alomomola#Paracheilinus_amanda, first by asking politely where they found the name, and gradually escalating, but there's been zero communication back from them. They briefly backed off after the warnings, and resumed creating several legitimate articles under the scientific names of species for the title, but they have now resumed inventing common names like Easter Island infantfish and Rapa Nui infantfish for Schindleria squirei. Not a trace of either name can be found online. Puerto Rico grunt will need to be moved by an admin to species name Rhonciscus pauco, without redirect: the only reference I could find for that common name was from iNaturalist.nz, which turned out to be a WP mirror. Since they never bothered to communicate back about it, it's hard to tell if they're simply having fun inventing common names, or are just making honestly mistaken inferences from misreading something online. Some admin intervention would be helpful. Wikishovel (talk) 17:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Blocked, redirects deleted, page moved as requested. Let me know if you need anything else. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply. I've started moving some more: could you please delete the made-up common names at redirects Great deep-water cardinalfish, Whipfin bass, Coral Sea slimehead, Shinyscale fairy basslet, Shiny-lined grunt. This could well take a while. Maybe I should post a list of these to your talk page? Wikishovel (talk) 21:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

That would work. I'll be around for the next couple hours. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This has been going on since July, and is a big cleanup job, needing not just moves and deletion of bad redirects, but also reverts of vandalism to fish articles (mostly sourced by inaturalist.nz mirrors of the vandalism). I'll ask for help over at WikiProject Fishes, and then come back to you with a list ASAP, so I won't need to dripfeed you the requests. Thanks again for your help with this. Wikishovel (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. This definitely isn't my field or I'd offer to help some more, but at least I can do the deletion and moving part wherever needed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

User:TruthSeeker7331

The user TruthSeeker7331, who appears to have a singular focus on removing contents across multiple pages, has a talkpage history with many warnings against removing large amounts of sourced content. Despite this, the user removes all these warnings from the talk page and continues with disruptive edits. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

p-blocked from article space for refusal to communicate. Valereee (talk) 18:04, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I've reopened this thread after it was closed, as the blocked user may want to engage here so that an understanding can be reached. — SamX [talk · contribs] 04:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

That would be my fault. Sorry! For five more minutes...^{it's just a single vice} 17:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

OrangTangerang53

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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OrangTangerang53 (talk · contribs) has been previously blocked for the unsourced addition of content to BLPs. Despite that, and all he multiple warnings received, they continue to add unsourced content to BLPs. I think a longer block is warranted. GiantSnowman 17:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• I think so too: done. Drmies (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Strongalliance

As a global sysop, I just deleted some thousand pages from pamwiki and cbk-zamwiki (copy-pasted from here) created by this user. I suppose it is Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Bertrand101. -- MF-W 21:30, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

•  Possible based on some rather old information on the cuwiki, but not similar to more recently reported socks other than geolocation. Someone more familiar with Bertrand101's behaviour should have a look at this. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  (Non-administrator comment) Whilst I am not an admin, I am familiar enough with Bertrand101's behaviour to know that this edit, this edit, this edit, this edit and especially these edits (I make particular note of the reference to Cebu in the final diff, which is a well-established behaviour pattern of theirs) are all indicative of this user being a possible sock. Looking at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Bertrand101, you can see which articles they frequently disrupt, and these match up to a few of them, plus there are some similarities in terms of editing articles on Philippine radio stations (despite the exact names of these stations not necessarily matching up to those listed). Patient Zero^talk 02:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User creating inappropriate pages

• KyngWilliams13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has created several pages in the Talk namespace of some (fictional?) fan film which, according to a Google search, seems to be their own creation. The user here indicates they have no intention to abide by Wikipedia's policy or editor advice. funplussmart (talk) 02:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I think you have mistyped the name of the user in question, because the link you provided does not correspond to an existing user. Remsense留 02:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Remsense, it should be fixed now. funplussmart (talk) 02:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

It is, thank you. Remsense留 02:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Funplussmart: when you start a thread about user here you need to notify them on their talk page. I've done so for you. On the merits, I think this is premature. You've given them adequate warning and an opportunity to learn how to edit here. If they ignore the warnings and keep creating nonsense pages then we'll have to block them, but I'd like to hear from them first. Mackensen (talk) 03:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

This concerns the deleted Talk:Bendy And Friends: The Adventure In Paradise Falls. An ANI report is not needed for such a new user doing something inappropriate but not particularly harmful (except that File:Bendy And Friends The Adventure In Paradise Falls.png certainly lives up to its copyright violation speedy deletion request). A new user like this would benefit from more explanation. Johnuniq (talk) 07:11, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Partial block request for 156.52.0.0/16

• 156.52.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can an administrator block the IP range 156.52.0.0/16 from the article Kepler-1649c? A user from the range seems to have a strange obsession with the article, making unconstructive or otherwise disruptive non-English edits to it, such as this and this and this. This has been going on for a timeframe of nearly a week. I feel like a partial block (of maybe 2 weeks or 1 month?) would be the perfect remedy here. — AP 499D25 (talk) 11:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:WMrapids (blanking)

The editor WMrapids has repeatedly blanked sourced content from articles:[91][92][93][94][95][96]. Despite having warned against this several times ([97][98][99][100]) (and admittedly restoring the removal in the Colectivo (Venezuela) article), WMrapids has continued with these removals: [101][102][103][104]. In the case of the 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt article, the editor dropped a WP:TAGBOMB and a lot of inline tags in the content that they wished to remove: [105]

This has been part of a complex problem that has been ongoing for months. Very briefly, after a heated move discussion, WMrapids shifted from editing in articles about Peru to those about Venezuela around May 2023, mostly politics and current events. Their pattern has consisted mostly in repeatedly reinstating disputed content, discussing about the issues while the content is present, not when it has been removed (contrary to WP:BRD). Said articles include Operation Gideon (2020), Nelson Bocaranda and others about Venezuelan media outlets, among others. This has included long-term edit warring, and it should be noted that WMrapids was already blocked in the Spanish Wikipedia for this before switching to Venezuelan topics. When the editor has failed to add desired content, they have resorted to include it in recently created articles as a sort of POV fork. For example, disputed or rephrased content in La Salida article was added in the Guarimba#La Salida section (portraying the 2014 Venezuelan protests as mostly violent), while the one that has been objected in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Venezuela/Reliable and unreliable sources and related media outlets was added in the Venezuelan opposition#Media section of the recently created page (portraying independent outlets as part of the Venezuelan opposition).

I started the Guarimba and Venezuelan opposition threads in the NPOV noticeboard to explain these problems further, and even further content can be found at "WMrapids reported by Alejandro Basombrio (Result: Three-revert rule not applicable)", "WMrapids reported by NoonIcarus (Result: No violation)" and "User:WMrapids and WP:ASPERSIONS". The behavior has led many editors to become tired and frustrated with the discussions. ReyHahn, originally active at the Operation Gideon talk page, decided to simply stop participating weeks ago, while SandyGeorgia has explicitly said that she has unwatched related articles because they prove too exhausting to keep up ([106][107][108][109]). I personally can say, too, that at this point it seems just better to stop editing in these articles for being so stressful and that any discussion has proven fruitless.

While this behavior may not fit neatly into a single pattern, it is clear that it is disruptive. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

There has been a consistent issue of limited participation in Venezuelan topics. As NoonIcarus mentions, our interactions began during discussion on the 2022 Peruvian coup attempt article. After they raised comparisons to the topic and Venezuelan events, I reviewed Venezuelan topics in general. After W1tchkr4ft 00 said that Venezuelan topics have continuous, uninviting NPOV conflicts, I explained my involvement in Venezuelan topics to them in this discussion: "I also didn't want to get involved in [Venezuelan] topics either since I was immediately barraged with reverts and threats of blocks, but I saw a need and had to fill it. Overall, we need more participation on Venezuelan articles because they are very controversial and have some fairly blatant POV issues. If we have a larger amount of viewpoints present, the trajectory of varying views will point articles in a more NPOV direction instead of a few bold editors hammering away with arguments." Upon my entry into the subject, I endured tag team editing and hounding against concerns I raised, including from NoonIcarus. Compared to other users involved in Venezuelan topics, there is no desire for me to have Venezuelan articles to have bias leaning one way or another (prior to this the was only and interest in Michigan and Peru topics) since the issues concerning the topic approached me instead of the other way around. As W1tchkr4ft 00 said in our discussion "the usual thoughts and feelings around such articles that any changes towards neutrality will be an uphill battle with the so called people who inhabit this space ... all stresses that make it more often than not simply - to me at least, i am sure to others too though - not worth attempting". So NoonIcarus' attempts to blame me for users disengaging is not the case; the main issue is that we have a controversial articles with limited participation. Sure, other users can come forward and say they took a break because they were frustrated with my edits, but I can say the same with other users too when I took some time off. It is important and healthy for all of us to disengage from controversial topics sometimes.

About the previous block on Spanish Wikipedia regarding these edits, I was unaware of edit warring behavior (new to controversial topics) and the user who I was edit warring with has been blocked indefinitely for English Wikipedia for... edit warring. So I admittedly fell into their trap.

Regarding allegations of blanking, if there were issues present, then of course I would attempt to remove them. NoonIcarus uses an argument of "stable version" to support the inclusion of contested material consistently, which I will address later. For instance, in the article Bolivarian propaganda, I removed a multitude of BLP violations, original research and inappropriate usage of primary sources that was placed targeting alleged supporters of the Venezuelan government. For NoonIcarus and similar users, there were no apparent issues with the Bolivarian propaganda article as they permitted the inappropriate information on the article for years. There was also my removal of POV material from Colectivo (Venezuela) (it previously described the groups as "terrorists" three times without attributing the political position of the National Assembly), which was reverted by NoonIcarus who simply said in an edit summary "Not a reason to delete the whole content", blanket reverting my good faith edits. Another case was the 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt article, where a single source provides the majority of the information; I was admittedly not aware of WP:TAGBOMB as my intentions were genuinely to attribute information and tag concerns present in the article. I innocently thought that placing such tags was appropriate after NoonIcarus and a separate user did so on Venezuelan opposition[110][111], Guarimba[112][113] and other articles. Burrobert has also raised concerns about NoonIcarus' tagging behavior here and here. NoonIcarus has participated in possible blanking themself, also on Venezuelan opposition[114][115][116][117][118][119][120] and Guarimba[121][122]. Some significant blanking by NoonIcarus involved removing controversial information related to the Venezuelan opposition, specifically Globovisión[123][124] and Alberto Federico Ravell[125]. La Salida is also another article where NoonIcarus participated in stonewalling to remove information that the Venezuelan opposition attempted to remove Maduro through protests; this required my inclusion of multiple sources while NoonIcarus frequently moved the goalposts and participated in sealioning, demanding evidence. Per WP:SATISFY, this behavior by NoonIcarus can result with a ban.

As for NoonIcarus, they have participated on the project with concerning behavior since their first edits on English Wikipedia during the 2014 Venezuelan protests. Shortly after our first encounters, I noticed that NoonIcarus was previously using an essay that they primarily created, WP:VENRS, to inappropriately remove large amounts of material through hundreds of edits. After months of editing, earlier this month, I raised concerns about NoonIcarus' potential advocacy edits on their talk page after seeing images that they were involved in protests against the Venezuelan government. This is no attempt to out NoonIcarus since I am not including personal information; I have reviewed the previous behavior towards them which was completely unacceptable and I would not want to experience that myself. But NoonIcarus has been present beside armed protesters on various occasions and among top Venezuelan opposition leaders. One can say this is an association fallacy, but if it looks like a duck (physically beside opposition leaders and protesters) and acts like a duck (participates in edits supporting Venezuelan opposition POV), then it's probably a duck.

Now returning to the "stable version" concerns; this was raised in the same post on their talk page regarding my thoughts on potential advocacy. NoonIcarus would inappropriately use the "stable version" argument while reverting edit summaries without explanation, doing so after this concern was raised. It appears that their behavior has improved somewhat as they continued to threaten me with blocks and prepared this ANI.

Overall, Venezuelan topics will remain controversial and with limited participation, the few users who stick around become fixated on what they interpret is "stable", with or without their bias glasses on. As I said above regarding Venezuelan topics, "If we have a larger amount of viewpoints present, the trajectory of varying views will point articles in a more NPOV direction instead of a few bold editors hammering away with arguments". While I could probably make further complaints about NoonIcarus' behavior, I hold no ill will towards them since I understand that we are stuck in a controversial topic where circular (sometimes heated) arguments may occur. As always, I'm open to listen to any concerns and learn how my behavior can be rectified for the future. WMrapids (talk) 19:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

IP Seasons

• 75.39.37.151 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2601:408:C500:2000:284C:859:A7D4:4F5D (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2601:408:C500:2000:8F9:7068:FBD4:E0BE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2601:408:C500:2000:95C0:C699:5241:1031 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2601:408:C500:2000:3D4F:A901:6049:ACFE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These IPs are insistent at adding seasons behind show names in the 2nd Children's and Family Emmy Awards article. Can somebody please block them for distruptive editing? Scoophole2021 (talk). 13:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

NotPeterParker

NotPeterParker (talk · contribs) has been uncivil at Talk:African Americans and related discussions. These are the most inappropriate diffs/quotes, with more available on request:

1. complaint about "non-Black editors policing" the article
2. Of good-faith contributor Rsk6400, they say: "One, you're not American. Two, you're an ethnic German who is pro-Russian (according to your page), so you have neither a cultural investment or real comprehension of this American affair and should probably refrain from making further idiotic edits on here."
3. After a warning from Rsk about ownership and a warning from me about personal attacks, they double down and describe Rsk as "a non-American based in Europe"
4. A reply to Rsk:
   • "I refuse to let you or anyone else determine what is and what is not relevent to them in regards to so-called African Americans. You not being American is trivial; you being Germanic is minor. You being a foreigner is the crux of the issue."
   • to Rsk: "Stop inserting yourself into matters you obviously know little about (probably - but not certainly - because you are a foreigner)"
   • warns Rsk that "if you keep writing unsolicited nonsense on my User page, I will ban your privileges from editing Wikipedia."

I haven't gone into the context of the content dispute, but it's definitely gotten contentious in other ways at Talk:African Americans' newest sections, and more attention from editors would be helpful. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

At the absolute best this is an astounding lack of good faith from NotPeterParker – the ethnicity or even location of an editor is absolutely irrelevant to their ability to edit an article, or the weight of their comments on a talk page.

At worst these are personal attacks that enter the realms of racism. — Czello ^(music) 15:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) I'm happy that Firefangledfeathers took this here, because I think the idea that only certain editors are allowed to edit certain pages would be the death of Wikipedia. Just for clarity I want to add that I'm not pro-Putin. The statement on my user's page is focussed on Russian literature and I use it to balance my support for Ukraine stated there. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

With just a couple hundred mainspace edits, I don't see that NotPeterParker's has had so overwhelmingly positive a contribution history as to even provide the faintest of cover for NOTHERE cracks such as those. I reckon we could do without his mindset. Ravenswing 16:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Made them go bye bye. Racial gatekeeping is not acceptable. If they think they can contribute in a co-operative manner they're welcome to make an unblock request. Canterbury Tail talk 17:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, CT. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, especially for stating that racial gatekeeping is not acceptable. Rsk6400 (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Swalors

Swalors (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) @Swalors is disruptive and edit warring in articles Gayur-khan and Simsim despite my requests to stop. He's removing WP:COMMONNAME supported by number of WP:RS (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - here he also added AI image that he presented as the image of Gayur-khan, 6, 7) renamed the article without discussing (1). I recommended the user to use talk page to explain his concerns there but he instead continued on edit warring despite his edits being reverted by me and another user (1, 2, 3, 4, 5). -- WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 16:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Yelh ma yelh;(( Swalors (talk) 21:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Azmarai76

User:Azmarai76 has been repeatedly edit warring and making a series of unconstructive edits to Swati tribe[126][127][128][129][130], adding self-published tags over sources published by Duke University and ISMEO, the basis of which being the claim that they got printed by Pashtun fascists.[131] The user has not provided a single source in the support of the claims they want to get added, even after being asked many times to do so at talk page.[132][133][134] Instead, they just have been adding irrelevant wikipedia guidelines links inspite of being requested to not do so.

Azmarai76 has been already warned by User:Fayenatic london multiple times to stop removing references and to adhere with WP:NPOV. [135][136] Sutyarashi (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm going through some of their recent work now. The issue isn't only that they're tagging things that shouldn't be tagged, they're also not using tags properly. They're doing things like inserting "WP:INTEGRITY" directly in the article beside statements they don't like, and "WP:RSPIMPROVE" directly in front of references they think need to be improved. They aren't even the right guidelines for their arguments. In other instances they add malformed tags like "{citation needed}}" (often in front of a source which already supports the statement they're demanding a citation for) or they just write in the text that the proper tag would produce, like "[unreliable source"]. Some of this may be because they are editing very rapidly and may not be checking their work, but it's highly disruptive regardless.

After Fayenatic London's warning about NPOV they responded "Yes brother I know these NGO guys and their ways to make foriegners believe what they say", which is not a promising response for neutrality. They do have a point about the Wemountains source, it has been suspended by its hosting provider but archives do strongly suggest it hosted user-generated content. It's also very difficult to follow their arguments because of their odd indentation style and lack of command of English, but it does seem to me that while they're challenging and removing sources they disagree with, they have yet to provide any source to back up their own arguments, instead just insisting that they are correct. This seems like a WP:CIR block situation. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The sources even the genetic studies I provided, and even modern historians like Haroon ur Rashed weren't accepted by Sutyarashi and he threatened me thrice. He called Raverty and Dorn B. As British servants and wants to keep Leitner in support of Dards despite the fact Leitner was also RAJ times. He also misquoted Angluish that Sultanate of Swat was collection of dardic states which the author never wrote. Moreover, Sutayarshi wants Tajiks category be changed to Dards on the basis of one reference which isn't correct but misleading for Wikipedia readers. He is ready to take definition of the term Dardestan from Iranica. Com but denies to consider the definition of dehgan from iranica. He simply wants the misleading material to spread across Wikipedia and still wants it to look genuine. Regards Azmarai76

Azmarai76 (talk) 18:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Provide any diff about with what or where did I threaten you. About rest of para, well, what can I say. Even during talk page discussion it was almost impossible to know what exactly were your objections over the sources or what changes you wanted to make, especially since you didn't provide any source, reliable or otherwise, over there. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore Angluish never gave any sounds or alphabets to Gabri language rather his opinion that the language was dardic. He didn't have anything in support of his assertion. I fail to understand if we have to keep Wikipedia clean and avoid falsifications or otherwise.

Sutyarashi is constantly negating all references and even genetic studies as Primary Sources or RAJ. He has threatened me thrice and made disruptive edits to three pages Sultanate of Swat, Swati tribe and even Pashtunization process. He has passed on derogatory remarks on authors like Raverty, Elphinstone, Dorn B., Haroon ur Raseed and others on one basis or other while is ready to keep a RAJ author Leitner as a source without whom Dard term would never have come into existence as he was the first to have come up with this term. Similarly, he is ready to undo all Wikipedia policies on source integrity to online verification of sources to Tabloid Journalism to assert his point of view on other editors and also Wikipedia readers. Regards

Azmarai76 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Sutyarashi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Sutayarshi is constantly negating all references and even genetic studies as Primary Sources or RAJ. He has threatened me thrice and made disruptive edits to three pages Sultanate of Swat, Swati tribe and even Pashtunization process. He has passed on derogatory remarks on authors like Raverty, Elphinstone, Dorn B., Haroon ur Raseed and others on one basis or other while is ready to keep a RAJ author Leitner as a source without whom Dard term would never have come into existence as he was the first to have come up with this term. Similarly, he is ready to undo all Wikipedia policies on source integrity to online verification of sources to Tabloid Journalism to assert his point of view on other editors and readers. Regards Azmarai76 (talk) 19:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You have not notified Sutayarshi, as is required, by following the instructions at the top of the page. Please do so immediately. Please also provide specific diffs to back up each of your claims. --Yamla (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, never mind. You should never have opened this thread. The discussion is taking place immediately above. Please keep your discussions there. --Yamla (talk) 19:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Smasongarrison

This user does not understand that "People from" categories are only for residence, per WP:OCLOCATION and WP:CATNAME, and that "French people" is a nationality cat. Since we cannot derive nationality from residency, I believe that we cannot categorize Sportspeople from France by region as French people.

I'd like her to be reminded that Wikipedia's rules apply to the category system and that she should stop systematically reverting my edits. Frenchl (talk) 21:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)