Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive62

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

New parameter suggestion at Template:IceHockeybox

Hi,

I mainly work at the football project but have a big interest for some hockey as well and I have been working with Template:IceHockeybox. I have a request to add the parameter |note= to the template as I have done successfully in the sandbox and I made the request at Template talk:IceHockeybox if yo feel like commenting.

The new parameter would be used for example in the 2014–15 Champions Hockey League to explain who goes through to the next round after aggregate score in the same way it is done for football/soccer tournament 2013–14 UEFA Champions League group stage were below the box is written Team X won 3-2 on aggregate after the second leg. I show on Template talk:IceHockeybox how it would look and this change will not effect the other pages who already has the template at all since it is not visible if note-parameter is not used.

Please voice your opinions here or there (rather have it there to show for some sort of consensus to add it). Thank you. QED237 (talk) 13:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:Editnotices/Page/List of NHL statistical leaders

Recommend that Template be updated, assuming the IPs have thoroughly updated the article via 2013-14 stats being added. GoodDay (talk) 13:57, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Category:Ice hockey games by team

What's up with this category [1]? Someone's removing playoff articles from team seasons categories and adding them to team game categories. IMO, only articles about single games (such as Winter Classics, or noteworthy individual games) would by definition fit in a category called "games". If anything, new categories on Series might make more logical sense. There must be a more sensible way of doing this. Echoedmyron (talk) 16:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

CfD - American men's basketball players

There is a discussion underway about this category at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 11#American men's basketball players. I realize this is not a hockey category, but as hockey is similarly structured (both genders play, but typically not in the same leagues) I would like to request input as I believe there are implications of precedence for hockey. This category was created about a year ago and currently has about 60 articles in it (obviously very underpopulated). I would like to see strong representation from people who actually work sports artices to weigh in as this would essentially signal a new category structure to be built and implemented (for example, 50 state-specific men's and 50 state-specific women's categories). There are pros and cons to the structure, but whatever your views I would like to ensure that the decision reached is one reached by robust dialogue and careful consideration. Especially as this did not occur the last time this category was CfD'ed. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 17:38, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

More on game logs

I reverted the addition of a "Goals" column to the game logs for 1993–94 New York Rangers season, as I believe it is too much detail and so starts obscuring the important information in the table. What does everyone think? isaacl (talk) 02:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. FWIW, SNIyer's IP socks have taken to adding to 1993–94 Vancouver Canucks season as well. This guy's obsession with that Finals seems to know no bounds. Reso lute 13:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Based on these edits to "NFL on CBS", where IP address 24.239.48.123 is the latest editor to post a request on the New York Rangers season article, there's a possibility that Celticsfellow is a new account for this editor. FYI, if anyone reading this edits NFL articles, I suggest that the "NFL on CBS" article probably could do without full schedule tables for each season. isaacl (talk) 19:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Trophy image copyright help

I am in the process of validating permission for an image of the File:Dudley Hewitt Cup.png... the user who tagged the file for lacking permission then went and tagged the image as "derivative work lacking status" when it became apparent I was seeking permission through the image's owner and OTRS to keep it on Wikipedia. I wrote him a day ago about how to resolve this, but he has not responded despite still editing on Wikipedia... ... ... so here I am... I see no "derivative image" stuff on our images of the Stanley Cup, Memorial Cup, or the Vince Lombardi Trophy... as I see no precedence for this complaint, is this a legit complaint about the image? What do I do? DMighton (talk) 22:47, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Consider that even if the design of the trophy were copyrighted, it will still satisfy Wikipedia's fair use policies for use on the Dudley Hewitt Cup article, since if the trophy's design were copyrighted, a free image of the trophy would be impossible to create. However, that brings us to the copyright status of the trophy's design, of which I'm not sure. Canuck^{89 (what's up?)} 04:55, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

Coyotes category contradiction?

Just seeking a little clarification here.. i know a little while back since the Coyotes changed name, all the Phoenix Coyotes players draft picks category were moved to Arizona Coyotes draft picks category regardless of them technically not being selected by Arizona..i think it was done likewise with the Anaheim Ducks and Mighty Ducks.

Now with the season starting and players having both played with the Phoenix Coyotes and Arizona Coyotes isn't it a contradiction to only have one draft category? i understand the logic of combining the two, since it is the same team, but in terms of keeping the category accurate to each player isn't it right to have the categories separate? or should all players who have played with the Phoenix Coyotes now be moved to the Arizona Coyotes category? ..hope i didn't word that too badly! Triggerbit (talk) 13:15, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I still think they should have remained separate. I think its erroneous to say someone was a Arizona Coyotes draft pick when they were actually a Phoenix Coyotes draft pick. It is no different than listing birth location by name at the time they were born. -DJSasso (talk) 12:51, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I personally see renames as little more than a fresh coat of paint, so prefer that they categorization be unified. But the real problem here is a technical limitation that WMF has never gotten off it's ass to fix - the inability to create category redirects. Until the software loses its limitations, we're stuck either way. Reso lute 19:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Coyotes haven't been relocated & therefore the Coyotes category should not be seperated. GoodDay (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm definitely with DJsasso's line of thinking here but the redirect would be the correct solution i guess. Triggerbit (talk) 00:28, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

4 Nations Cup

Many women's hockey medal record boxes feature medals won in the 4 Nations Cup. The is not an official IIHF tournament. Over the last 3 Worlds and the last Olympics, either Russia or Switzerland have reached the final four. Sweden is not even ranked in the Top 4 of the IIHF rankings anymore. Yet, Russia and the Swiss are never in the 4 Nations Cup, while Sweden is always a part of it. So for me the 4 Nations Cup is just a friendly invitational, not correlated with IIHF rankings and used to test rosters. Results gained there don't belong in the medal box with those from the Olympics and IHWC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:2E96:BA90:D50:3BA5:CC6D:BBF8 (talk) 23:50, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

There appears to only be a single old entry which I erased, what is the "many" that you speak of?18abruce (talk) 16:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Plenty of players have it, like Hayley Wickenheiser

My apologies, I only looked at the teams, didn't consider individual players. Seems equivalent to making a trophy case for a 'participant' badge to me.18abruce (talk) 16:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Either way the medal box is meant for any international competition. So it would be completely valid to have it listed there. -DJSasso (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Is that so? I could have sworn it was only major events, I find it strange because there are much restrictive rules in other regards, like for example the minimum leagues some players have to have played in in order to be listed. Maybe some clarification would be in order. I could see the Hlinka Memorial being "tolerated" in Medal Record infoboxes, because while it is an invitational, its list of invitees pretty much encompasses all of the sport's credible junior national programs. But beyond that, I think it should stick to IHWC/OG/WCup/CC.

Categories:Sports players from Louisville, Kentucky

You are invited to take part in a discussion about this category at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 24#Sport players from Louisville, Kentucky. Rikster2 (talk) 13:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested page move of a stadium article with naming rights

Hi there. A recent requested page move of O.co Coliseum to Oakland Coliseum has been re-listed for another week, and thus may need input by participants here at WikiProject Ice Hockey.

At issue are WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMINGCRITERIA concerns that, if this move request passes, may eventually affect the naming of NHL and other ice hockey arena articles: specifically whether to keep the current practice of renaming arena and stadium articles whenever there is a new sponsor (like renaming Jobing.com Arena to Gila River Arena), or permanently keep them at long-term, stable names (like always keeping articles at, for example, the Marine Midland Arena or Edmonton Coliseum titles instead of their current corporate titles) regardless of current or future changes to the naming rights. Please discuss at Talk:O.co Coliseum#Requested move 2. Thank you. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Selma Juliet Christina D Silva

Dear hockey experts: I'm not sure if this is ice hockey or not. Is this a notable player? Should Wikipedia have an article about this topic? —Anne Delong (talk) 00:37, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I assume it's referring to a field hockey player. isaacl (talk) 00:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I wondered about that. It doesn't really say. Thanks anyway. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The link to the Sports Reference web site lists participation in (field) hockey at the Summer Olympics, and hockey played in India is, as far as I know, field hockey. isaacl (talk) 01:56, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Guidelines for athletes hold sports-wide that anyone competing at the Olympics is presumptively notable. Field hockey's a big enough deal in India that it's probable to find decent references in Indian media sources. Ravenswing 08:35, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again, everyone. I have postponed its deletion until there's time to work on it. —Anne Delong (talk) 19:15, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Mid-season stats policy?

In general, I know it's frowned upon to update stats after every game, but I can't seem to find the policy on that, if such a formal policy exists. Pittsburgh's coach Mike Johnston has been getting coaching stats updated after each game, such as here: [2] and I was going to delete this table, but not without referencing a policy that I can't find. Opinions? Echoedmyron (talk) 23:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no policy that forbids it, just consensus. I would have to go looking through the archives of this page to find some of the discussion on it. Generally on pages where one revert doesn't stop the updating people end up putting in an HTML comment mentioning it. -DJSasso (talk) 15:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

IMHO, we shouldn't make stat updates during an NHL season. Those updates at the article-in-question, should be deleted. GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This was the Talk page template that was suggested for such edits. –B2Project^(Talk) 13:51, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment

There is a Request for Comment about "Chronological Summaries of the Olympics" and you're invited! Becky Sayles (talk) 07:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Harry Zolnierczyk

There is a discussion at Talk:Harry Zolnierczyk that could probably use a few more opinions. -DJSasso (talk) 18:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Asia-Oceanic Championship

Hi hockey experts, I am writing here an article that is up for deletion because I failed to provide a reliable source. Is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_Asian_Oceanic_U18_Championships and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_men%27s_national_under-18_ice_hockey_team considered to be a national league or be a reliable source for my article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by EWEshaw (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia is never considered a reliable source, you have to have good reliable sources outside wikipedia. About the leagues I have no idea, never heard of them, but they can not be used as source. QED237 (talk) 11:57, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

If you're talking the John Caputo article, you need to provide reliable sources about Caputo which discuss him in significant detail. Even if those Wikipedia articles constituted "reliable sources" -- which Qed237 accurately states they're not -- they don't mention Caputo at all. You've been asked before to review some of the pertinent guidelines -- WP:GNG, WP:NHOCKEY, WP:BIO, WP:NHOCKEY/LA and WP:SIGCOV -- so you have a better understanding of the standards a biographical hockey article must meet on Wikipedia. I urge you again to do so. Ravenswing 12:37, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I think you may have failed to provide a reliable source on the first article because it was plagiarized.[3] [[User talk: Slave28|♪ℓ☮⚔☭ⅩⅩⅧ]] (talk) 06:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, the poor Aussie U18 team nearly averaged losing their tournament matches 30-0? Man, that can't be a happy memory. Ravenswing 12:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Mueller's book on the IIHF is a good resource on the first article cited by EWEshaw, but does not contain any reference to John Caputo, nor is it plagarized. The pdf cited was created june 23 of 2012 by copying the existing wikipedia article with no helpful additions.18abruce (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I did say I think ... that's what happens when you don't cite enough references. --[[User talk: Slave28|♪ℓ☮⚔☭ⅩⅩⅧ]] (talk) 21:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Question

Why don't the NHL teams have current roster navboxes? No one made them or a specific reason. Just wondering, they don't need them. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There are a few guidelines which such navboxes would violate. That being said of course I know other sports projects choose to look the other way and still have them, but we have tried to avoid such things. -DJSasso (talk) 18:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I've always opposed them as useless clutter. The main team article and each season article lists the full roster. IMNSHO, a roster list is not necessary or useful on an individual player's article - be it for the current team or any random team of the past. The teammates someone played with at any given moment in time is not key information on an individual. It barely qualifies as trivia. Reso lute 18:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

More NHOCKEY tweaking, alas ...

Criterion #6 of NHOCKEY stipulates: "Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship)." Seeing the current flap at Notability (Sports) over a fringe player who's played for the Kosovo team in international friendlies, I'd like to tighten it, and wondered what folks thought on it. It'd probably be better phrased as "Played for a senior national team at the Olympic Games or in the top pool at the World Championships." Ravenswing 16:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean that almost the entire Turkish Women's national team shouldn't have their own articles? Saying the 'top pool' is wise.18abruce (talk) 17:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I tried for that once before as part of an omnibus package of changes. I would support it again if proposed individually. Reso lute 18:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you know which teams would no longer fall under the scope of the proposed modified criterion? isaacl (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Change makes sense. Should we add in the Canada Cup or World Cup of Hockey? Granted, I don't think it changes anyone's notability with this addition. Patken4 (talk) 23:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd be against it, actually. The Dolovises of the world, no doubt, would argue that THIS tournament is therefore notable and THAT tournament should therefore be notable and it'd be all around the place. Do we know of anyone in those two tournaments who don't already qualify for an article by way of playing in their national leagues?
As far as your question, Isaacl, a good number. It's been argued -- and the current wording doesn't contradict -- that the lower pools at the Worlds count: the Moldovas, Mongolias and North Koreas of the world. Ravenswing 05:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The problem with this change is that teams go up and down divisions. I am fine leaving it as is unless we can find a way to word it and have a list somewhere that tracks since the beginning of time the up and down movements of teams. Remember meeting these criteria doesn't necessarily mean an article has to be kept. -DJSasso (talk) 18:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Ehh, if we're focused on players, then the teams that bounce don't really matter. A player who appeared with Norway in the Division II tournament last year doesn't get a NHOCKEY pass if Norway is playing in the top division this year. Reso lute 20:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Well that is sort of my point, if someone say played on Norway when they were a Championship division team then they would qualify. But say an editor here comes and looks at the list of teams currently in the Championship division and doesn't see Norway. They say to themselves, oh this player doesn't qualify because Norway isn't in the Championship division and nominates them for deletion when they did qualify at the time they played because Norway was in the Championship division. -DJSasso (talk) 20:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Sure, and if they meet GNG, we all vote keep and that editor (hopefully) learns their lesson. Reso lute 20:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I've argued against this in the past and feel the thoughts I conveyed back in the summer of 2013 would suffice for this discussion also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey/Archive58#Proposed_changes_to_WP:NHOCKEY --Hockeyben ^{(talk -} ^contribs) 22:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, however my rebuttal from then still applies also. NHOCKEY/NSPORT does not establish notability, they are meant to reflect the points by which we can expect a subject meets notability criteria, and it has never been demonstrated that participants in the lower divisions of the world championships cross that threshold as a group. Reso lute 14:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Could this be resolved by adding an invisible message at the top of the player's page stating when and on what team he gained NHOCKEY status? This way anyone who does any editing on the page could easily direct someone that the status had been achieved at some point without causing a page to become nominated for deletion due to a player losing his status later in his career. Just a thought. --[[User talk: Slave28|♪ℓ☮⚔☭ⅩⅩⅧ]] (talk) 01:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

What if we just scrapped criterion #6 all together and classified each level of the World Championships separately? We could take the top level of the World Championships, Olympics and possibly the World and Canada Cups and add them to criterion #1. Division I of the World Championship could be treated like the American Hockey League where you have to play a certain number of games at that level to obtain notability, this would fit under criterion #3. Division II could be treated similar to the NCAA and Major Junior leagues and added to criterion #4. While Division III would not be considered a high enough level of competition. Deadman137 (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Only if it can be demonstrated that players who have appeared in whatever arbitrary number of games we pick will almost always have enough coverage to meet notability criteria. Reso lute 22:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Corsi Rating

Should there be an article dedicated to Corsi ratings? Or hockey analytics in general? It is becoming a thing. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 01:00, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Sources might not be easy, actually. Corsi ratings are all the rage on blogs and insider websites, but whether they've been noticed by the mainstream media -- beyond casual mentions -- is another thing. Ravenswing 04:56, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I have seen some coverage on Corsi Ratings from the likes of TSN, but it may be too trivial to warrant an article. Deadman137 (talk) 22:34, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe there may not be enough to form an article on things like Corsi, but we could easily fit the definitions of things like Corsi, Fenwick, PDO, etc... on Glossary of ice hockey terms. Canuck^{89 (what's up?)} 22:46, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

That would be a really good solution for now. Deadman137 (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that James Mirtle's archives with the Star would probably offer some sources. But an article on various hockey analytic stats will probably become necessary at some point. Reso lute 22:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the idea in theory. I think that analytics have become more mainstream and I think a wikipedia article on it would be quite useful, actually. However, I think the key would be to do it in such away as it can be sourced and coherently written. I don't think an article solely on 'corsi ratings' would be an appropriate. But I think a broader article with appropriate sub-topics would be a great idea. GLG GLG (talk) 04:56, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

List of Swedish ice hockey champions

I have made some improvements/additions to List of Swedish ice hockey champions but User:Smartskaft keeps reverting article to an older version. Any suggestions or third opinions welcome. User:DjlnDjln (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Start a topic on the 'Talk Page' and calmly explain why you believe your edits are warranted/appropriate and see how he reacts. GLG GLG (talk) 04:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Gordie Howe

There's a bit of an edit war over how much detail of Howe's recent medical treatment is appropriate for the article, and it could stand for some more opinions ... Ravenswing 02:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

List of NHL general managers

Just noticed that the GMs past playing careers & family relations have been added to the article, this month. Are these additions really necessary? GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I could see a case for the playing career, as it helps distinguish between those who are career executives (such as Stan Bowman), and those who accumulated their experience via playing the game (such as Steve Yzerman). Not sure on family relations, though. Canuck^{89 (converse with me)} 02:35, December 28, 2014 (UTC)

I agree, see my comment on talk page. 69.158.124.30 (talk) 03:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I would leave the career part but I would remove the family part. -DJSasso (talk) 18:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Article for deletion

Mark Carlson is up for debate. Any comments or views would be helpful. –B2Project^(Talk) 14:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Head coach of Oilers and Devils

I'd appreciate some more opinions about who to list as the head coach(es) for the Oilers and Devils in List of NHL head coaches. 69.158.124.30 (talk) 04:34, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

For the Oilers, it's apparently Nelson. From what I've read at TSN, Lamoriello seems to be in charge of the Devils bench. GoodDay (talk) 06:12, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

This article from the Edmonton Journal posted ~three hours ago verifies Nelson is the coach of the Oilers. Hwy43 (talk) 06:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have included links to the relevant Oilers and Devils sections of the talk page where I believe more discussion should be held. 69.158.124.30 (talk) 16:17, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

List of (Team) players pages

I have been looking around the Category:Lists of National Hockey League players team pages and have found that some have not been updated a couple of seasons. While this format is handy to see all-time stats for franchise, I can see how some of these pages have become neglected. Do we want to keep these pages as a stats record or just a list of players? –B2Project^(Talk) 16:58, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Like anything on the wiki there is no deadline for updates. I would just make sure the as-of note has the correct date on them. (or you if you have the time update them.) -DJSasso (talk) 03:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)