Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 13

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 10

Archive 11

Archive 12

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Basketball coaches subcategories - Help Needed

Hi all, I've created Category:American basketball coaches by state and have been steadily subcategorizing from Category:American basketball coaches. There are still 1,300 articles in this category and, if you are willing, it would be very helpful if you would also help with this project. I don't know how to do it, but I imagine a bot could do some of the work as well since many of the articles are already in a subcategory of Category:American basketball players by state.--TM 12:47, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

"By state" is quite ambiguous. Is this by the state of the teams that they have coached, state where they were born, state where they grew up, state where they live, etc?—Bagumba (talk) 13:09, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

As I understand it, "by state" categories are based on the state from which they originate or to which they had a significant connection. Per Wikipedia:Categorization of people: "By place

The place of birth, although it may be significant from the perspective of local studies, is rarely defining from the perspective of an individual. People are sometimes categorized by notable residence, in the form People from Foo (not "Natives of Foo"), regardless of ethnicity, heritage, or nationality. Residential categories should not be used to record people who have never resided in that place. Nationality is reflected by the occupation category (above), not country or county or city of residence. The category page of People from Foo may mention the most commonly used names for residents ("Fooians", or "Fooers"), assuming that common usage is verifiable (e.g. by Google). Such names may also helpfully be used to redirect towards People from Foo. For an example of this, see Category:People from New York City."--TM 17:38, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

2017–18 Greek Basketball Cup

2017–18 Greek Basketball Cup, which only has one source, claims that Manny Harris was the tournament MVP. The only sources that I find such as this support him as MVP of an earlier round. Is there some sort of mixup going on?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:46, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps Vamian, who added Harris as MVP, can comment.—Bagumba (talk) 01:37, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

By Googling “Greek Cup AEK” I got this. Looks legit. Rikster2 (talk) 14:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:41, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

transaction pages created by Kev519

Kev519 recently created a bunch of pages like List of 2002–03 NBA season transactions. The pages are currently eligible for WP:A3 deletion (no content other than external links, template tags, and a re-stating of the title). Before I add the tags, does anybody on this project feel the pages are useful and likely to be expanded in the near future? power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:30, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

They all should be deleted as there is no content. You should better ask about this at WT:NBA. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:47, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

UBA Pro Basketball League

Are teams and players in this league considered notable? I can see some coverage about the league itself, but sources about individual teams seem hard to come by. Asking after a user posted a message on my talk page. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:14, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Why is this being nominated for deletion?

Category:Greek basketball coaches says it is nominated for deletion, and the same here Category:Spanish basketball coaches, and I can't even find a discussion or entry for it anywhere. So now we are also deleting basketball coaches as a category? It looks like they are all nominated for deletion. Bluesangrel (talk) 20:58, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Not sure, but I think a number are being deleted to make room for “men’s” and “women’s” basketball coaches Rikster2 (talk) 21:00, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, that's fine, and it would probably be better that way, but why isn't there even a place to see where they are nominated, or to even discuss that? Bluesangrel (talk) 21:03, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

If you go to the discussion, I think the nominator says it would apply to all nationalities - he just only listed the American version. Rikster2 (talk) 21:04, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

OK, well, that's a bit confusing, but alright.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to oppose as I think this change is unnecessary. Asturkian (talk) 21:13, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, you can do that here, but the issue is that for several countries there are two categories - "basketball coaches" and "women's basketball coaches." That isn't appropriate - the men's category shouldn't be the default it should either be "men's" or don't segregate by sex at all. Rikster2 (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Yugoslavia, Serbia

There's lots of people who claim that Serbia is a successor of Serbia&Montenegro and Yugoslavia. And using that justification to add content to Serbia men's national basketball team that should clearly be part of Yugoslavia national basketball team. Official sources from fiba are being avoided, making those articles unsourced and clearly false. Russia is also successor of Soviet Union, but none of SU's achieve are being claimed by Russia. Anybody sharing my views? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 01:21, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. Successor≠Inheritor.T v x1 03:50, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree the EuroBasket edition of Bozalegenda was correctly reversed the current edition of Bozalegenda (cur | prev) 20:30, 30 January 2018‎ Bozalegenda (talk | contribs)‎ in FIBA Basketball World Cup is wrong the official FIBA version is this FIBA Archive [[1]] User:74Account 3 February 2018 (UTC)

We discussed that matter the last time 5 months ago: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 12#Yugoslavia / Serbia, Bozalegenda was then informed of all the facts he still ignores. Before that discussion, EuroBasket, FIBA Basketball World Cup and Basketball at the Summer Olympics reflected the FIBA-sources and only since then the articles show the Bozalegenda/Serbian view (and now he says the articles are his prefered way for years, what just shows how reliable his statements are).--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 09:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I was one of the users that participated in last year's discussion and my position does not change – Yugoslavia's and Serbia's records should be separated. However, there is one user who does not listen and just blindly reverts everything despite of clear proof... I also have a feeling that we should go ahead and take this matter to WP:ANI as it is pretty clear that his reverts are disruptive. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:48, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Guys just read this and you will understand everything. And when you explain to me how Serbia played at the EuroBasket 2007 then we could continue with this discussion. As I now new national teams need to start from B Division just like Montenegro, so how then Serbia played at Eurobasket 2007 if it is a new national team?--Bozalegenda (talk) 17:52, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Basketball Federation of Serbia are the successors of the Basketball Federation of Serbia and Montenegro and that is the reason why Serbia played in EuroBasket 2007. However, they did not inherit any appearances or medals from FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro and must be separated. Is it so hard to understand that? All FIBA sources separate them and I even showed an e-mail from FIBA itself where they made it clear. You are taking your nationalistic views over the view of the official worldwide organization. Your continued disruptive editing on this matter along with comments in the discussions regarding this matter strongly implies that you do not belong here and looks like WP:ANI is the only option to deal with your behavior. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:59, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

FIBA sources also separate the profiles of Zaire and the DR Congo. Must we also separate both teams? Asturkian (talk) 20:37, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

If FIBA does that, we do it too. We do not invent facts, but follow official sources. It doesn't matter, if we think they are right or wrong. If you think, that's wrong by FIBA, email to them, maybe you can persuade them, but as long as something is an official fact by the governing body, we have to follow it.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

@Sabbatino: Mate let me explain you. If the Basketball Federation of Serbia is successor of the Basketball Federation of Serbia and Montenegro then that also means that Serbia is successor of Serbia and Montenegro. And FIBA sources do not separate anything, your source is just a html code table which is led by a robot. We also have situation with Kosovo who declared declared independence in 2008, and now Basketball Federation of Kosovo is part of FIBA and plays in FIBA competition. So per your version then we must have articles Serbia men's national basketball team 2006-2008 and Serbia men's national basketball team 2008-present, and that is nonsense. Serbia didnt moved anywhere. And don't tell me that I don't belong here, when you do a 10% contribution to this wikipeda what I did then you can say something.--Bozalegenda (talk) 20:48, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Personal synthesis just shows how flawed your logic on the subject is. In addition, you are the one who needs to be explained about the situation, so I will carefully try to explain it to you:

There were many sources shown to you and even Basketball Federation of Serbia acknowledges that FR Yugoslavia/Serbian and Montenegro team≠Serbia team. And yes, FIBA separates FR Yugoslavia/Serbian and Montenegro team from Serbia team. Succeeding the federation's place in FIBA does not mean that previous team's records are succeeded.
Just because Kosovo separated from Serbia, that does not mean that there should be two pages for Serbia. Serbia is still Serbia, but smaller.
"And don't tell me that I don't belong here, when you do a 10% contribution to this wikipeda what I did then you can say something." – Sorry, but the last time I checked 40 thousand edits was more than 20 thousand edits, so I am way ahead of you and made twice as much contributions to English Wikipedia. Just because I was not at the WikiProject since my day 1, that does not mean that I was not editing Wikipedia. With this statement your attitude toward me looks like harassment, which just again shows that you do not belong here.

If you are going to continue to be hostile in this discussion then do not bother replying to my post and do not ping me as I have no interest in discussing with someone, who picks out information to its liking. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

As we already know, it doesn't make sense to discuss with Bozalegende, if a user do not recognize any source if it does not fit his opinion, how will you discuss with him??? FIBA sources are relevant for us, your "a html code table which is led by a robot" over and over and over again is nonsense and will not help you. And a little hint, a robot is programmed by humans, so behind every robot's work is a human, do you see???--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 21:00, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

At Talk:EuroBasket I have explained, why Serbia took the place of Serbia and Montenegro in 2007.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 09:45, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Sabbatino I already explained you 100 times. If the Basketball Federation of Serbia is successor of the Basketball Federation of Serbia and Montenegro then that also means that medals from Serbia and Montenegro belongs only to Serbia. And your FIBA source is not valid. Per that source medals that FR Yugoslavia won from 1992 till 2002 belongs to old SFR Yugoslavia and that is nonsense. FR Yugoslavia and SFR Yugoslavia were two totally different countries, with different names, flags and everything was different. FR Yugoslavia national team played against teams from ex SFR Yugoslavia (Croatia and others) so that medals have nothing with old SFR Yugoslavia. So your source from FIBA is not reliable, thats just a html code table and is not reliable. FIBA explained everything with this source and the fact that Serbia played at the Eurobasket 2007. And Kosovo situation is same like this with Montenegro, so per your version we should have five articles for one national team. And when i talked about wikipedia edits I was thinking about basketball articles (we are on WikiProject Basketball), so when you do a 10% contribution to basketball articles like I did maybe then you can say that I do not belong here.--Bozalegenda (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Saying something to you is like talking to a wall. You keep misinterpreting what is being said to you an you only accept "your version". You also do not know how much contributions I made in basketball pages so you should stop it right here as your behavior toward me has been leaning to harassment for quite some time. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:32, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

The articles in question are targeted again, EuroBasket, FIBA Basketball World Cup and also FIBA Europe Under-20 Championship are reverted to Bozas version for days.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 13:16, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Maybe request page protection. But this {{Country data FR Yugoslavia}} makes those basketball team links wrong. And Yugoslavia national basketball team / Serbia men's national basketball team needs to reflect the same content. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

First read this two articles - SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia and maybe you will understand. If you dont know the history or geography of Europe then you should not edit this articles.--Bozalegenda (talk) 14:40, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

If you don't know that we are talking sports and not politics or geography then you should not edit sports articles.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 14:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Sports, politics, geography - everything is connected. If you dont know the difference between two countries then I dont have nothing to discuss with you. If you dont know that SFR Yugoslavia stop to exist in 1992 then thats your problem. But your fantasies will not be on wikipedia.--Bozalegenda (talk) 15:07, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

I started a discussion at WP:ANI --Pelmeen10 (talk) 13:41, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Pelmeen10: I think you didn't explain it well. We are not talking about the Yugoslavia national basketball team that played from 1936 to 1991. We all agree that team is a completely different one from the rest.

The discussion is for the team from 1992 onwards. FIBA profiles are absurd as they only follow the name of the country, as I explained in the discussions of Zaire/DR Congo or Formosa/Taiwan/Taipei. Asturkian (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Not this again....come on guys, it is a fact, a simple actual fact, that SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) are separated by FIBA World basketball authority from Serbia. This isn't even in the least bit debatable, nor should it be even the slightest bit controversial. I honestly don't understand how Serbia national team keeps getting credited with the stuff from Yugoslavia here and it's considered as legit editing.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Guys, this has flared again at Yugoslavia national basketball team. That article does not currently reflect results as they are credited by the sport's governing body, FIBA.T v x1 15:45, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

FLC nomination

Hello,

One of the lists that I have concentrated on editing, Mr. Show-Me Basketball, is currently listed as a featured list candidate, and it could use additional people to review and support the nomination.

Thanks, Jmnbqb (talk) 02:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

BIG3

After reviewing an older talk page, I wanted to bring to light the fact that the BIG3 is not a 3x3 basketball tournament. It is a professional basketball league with seasons that take place over multiple months in various NBA stadiums in cities all across the country. If someone is playing for the BIG3, he is technically no longer retired. My suggestion is to be able to change it to "retired NBA player" and then mention the BIG3 league later in the bio. (Cglass Big3 (talk) 23:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC))

I think it's reasonable to not call them a "retired" or "former" player if they are playing in the BIG3. I don't think it's notable enough currently to mention the BIG3 in the opening sentence or in the infobox, but later in the bio seems OK.—Bagumba (talk) 13:08, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it is fair to consider former NBA players unretired because of their participation in the BIG3. The league's own commissioner has called it pick-up basketball and so have numerous sources. It is not a fully professional league. It is more akin to a charity basketball game than an actual pro league. It is common for basketball players, both current and former, to play pickup basketball when the NBA offseason occurs but that does not mean they are active professional athletes once more.--TM 13:36, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Bagumba - doesn’t need to be in the lead/infobox, Rikster2 (talk) 14:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

RM notification

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:Man of the match#Requested move 5 March 2018, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, QEDK (後 🌸 桜) 09:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

"The Basketball Tournament" tenures

A user is adding these to player articles (see here). Is it a good idea to do so? Since the TBT is a loosely-affiliated tournament, not an actual league, I don't believe so. In some ways it is a little like BIG3, which we don't add. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 17:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

This should be removed since it is as same level as playing outside with a group of friends. Even BIG3 has more weight than this "league". – Sabbatino (talk) 17:14, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Similar to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive_11#BIG3, this should not be in the infobox. This league might be OK for the body if some independent sources cover it.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Fine for body with ref, but not infobox Rikster2 (talk) 17:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Perfectly fine for the article's main body, preferably with its own section, or sub-section. Not for infobox though.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Basketball facts are not correct

I know nothing about basketball, which is why I did a wiki search. But there is a fact abut basketball that even I can identify as incorrect in this article. Perhaps someone more official than me can correct it? I am guessing someone is confusing inches and centimeters. Look for the size of the basketball in the current text: "For men, the official ball is 29.5 inches (75 cm) in circumference (size 7, or a "295 ball") " . What my uninformed guess is that a basketball is actually 29.5 centimeters. I am guessing that because I don't think a 29.5 inch basketball would even fit through a basketball hoop. It might not even fit through some doors.

Brian Arlington, TX — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.64.54.191 (talk) 15:45, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

29.5" is correct; see here. Note that the number refers to the circumference, not the diameter. The diameter is a bit wider than 9 inches, which may be easier to visualize. Zagalejo^^^ 06:16, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Double (basketball)

Double (basketball), an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. AIRcorn (talk) 23:36, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Should there really be two different articles for the same club?

We have an article for ASK Riga and another one for Rīgas ASK. One article is for the team before it bankrupted (founded 1931), and the other one is for after it came back (in 2004), initially with a different name. However, the article for the first team stated incorrectly that the new team had no relation at all to the old team. Which wasn't true. Once the new team changed its name back to ASK Riga, in 2006, it took all of the history of the first team. And officially, the second team was then recognized as having all of the history of the first team, as can be seen here [2] So my question is, do we really need two different articles for this? It's quite confusing to editors, as to which article to link to, and where to list players and coaches. Like, should we have separate lists for the team's coaches and players? It seems a bit redundant to have two different articles, since in 2006, the second club absorbed all the history of the first club into it.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:18, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

If this is similar to what happened to Rangers F.C. you can initiate a merge discussion if you haven't already. –H T D 00:08, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Manu Ginobili "2004 Olympics MVP award"

Over the years, many times editors have added to the Manu Ginobili article that he was the MVP of the 2004 Olympics. However, no such award exists. There is no MVP award for the Olympics. AS it isn't a basketball competition, it's the Olympics, with basketball just being one of the sports. The medals are the only awards. There are no individual awards for Olympics basketball. Yet, over the years, it has consistently been added to Manu's article here that he was the MVP of the 2004 Olympics (by fact, he was not). Some individual basketball websites made their own awards, and named him MVP, based on the opinion of their website. But there is still no such actual official MVP of the Olympics basketball award. If you try to edit that the award does not exist, it gets reverted back. if you try to edit that it's an unofficial award, it gets reverted back. If you edit it is a website award, it gets reverted back. Always reverted back, to as if he was officially named MVP of that tournament, and that such an award actually exists (in reality, no such award exists). This has been an on and off issue for several years at that article. So my question is, should an award that does not exist, and is just something of an opinion of a couple bloggers on the internet....should that be listed in the article as it usually is, something like, "He was the MVP of the 2004 Olympics"? Personally, I don't think that is encyclopedic.Bluesangrel (talk) 01:00, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

It chimed in at the talk page, but the FIBA archive is pretty convincing. (Then again, that FIBA archive has been wrong for quite a few times already.) –H T D 03:52, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Infobox consensus for pre-professional basketball players

For players who are still in high school and college do we include state level outstanding player awards like Mr. Basketball of Michigan or Ohio Mr. Basketball in an infobox? I was wondering because someone removed "2x Ontario Scholastic Basketball Association MVP (2017 & 2018)" from Iggy Brazdeikis.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we generally list State Mr. Basketball awards in the infobox. I have no idea if this one you mention is the equivalent of those or if it is more similar to a HS conference POY which we do.not list. I just don't know enough about Canadian HS basketball. Rikster2 (talk)•

Is he really notable? The citations at least are mostly non-independent coverage, or passing mentions in recruiting updates.—Bagumba (talk) 01:58, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

He is currently on the fringes of notability, but he is a Nike Hoops Summit invitee. I think the current article has 4 RS with him as the subect, which would pass GNG.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:38, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

P.S., oddly, I can't find any sources for the World team roster for the April 13, Nike Hoops Summit yet.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

One thing to consider to determine the importance of his MVPs is what is the relationship between the Ontario Federation of School Athletic Associations and Ontario Scholastic Basketball Association. Help anyone?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:45, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

O.K. looking at this website it is just a league MVP.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:43, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

I think awards like this that are unlikely to ever be a blue link should not be in the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 02:02, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Zainoul Bah

Hello everyone, sorry for my basic level in english but this article is written in french, I don't know what to do so it's up to you now ! --El Funcionario (talk) 10:01, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Notability for playing in FIBA tournament?

Does playing for one's national team in an international tournament qualify them for notability under WP:SPORTCRIT, e.g. due to having "participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level"? At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stanley Ocitti, the player in question played in the FIBA Africa tournament for his national squad but the article is up for deletion.--TM 22:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I used to vote keep for these types of articles but if we can't write half decent article about that person I'd rather have it deleted. –H T D 01:40, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that there is clear consensus on players being assumed notable if they have played in AfroBasket, EuroBasket or the other continental championships. Bottom line is, even if you played in the NBA, if there is nothing written about you, your article may be deleted. In Ocitti's case though, I think there is enough sources online in english speaking media to write a decent article about his career. Dammit_steve (talk) 09:32, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Muhaymin Mustafa nationality

Could someone else take a look at Muhaymin Mustafa’s nationality? It currently reads “Turkish Cypriot / Sudanese / Turkish.” I feel like that’s not right - for one thing “Turkish Cypriot” isn’t a nationality. Also, hard for me to believe he has three legal nationalities (vs. ethnicities). He has played for Turkey, and is listed as Turkish here. He is listed as Turkish and Cypriot here (but it is RealGM and they aren’t rigorous in their research). I’m not interested in an edit war with the article creator but I feel like he/she is digging in and may not be defining the field in the way it was intended. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 01:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

For some countries, like Turkey, TNRC is a real country. It could be plausible he has three, or has two right now and renounced his Sudanese nationality before... –H T D 01:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Bogut signing with Sydney

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association#Bogut_signing regarding press conference tomorrow about Andrew Bogut and the Sydney Kings.—Bagumba (talk) 11:36, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Merging of LKL Finals and LKL Finals Most Valuable Player Award

I have proposed the above two articles be merged and it was suggested that we have that discussion here. While I feel it's appropriate, per WP:Merge to have the discussion at LKL Finals I do think the idea of alerting members of this project to the discussion is a good one (especially because until that suggestion one of those pages weren't even tagged for the project). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

War of edits at BCL

Hi. I have a war of edits with an IP user at Basketball Champions League articles. The problem is he wants to call AEK Athens simply "AEK", but we must add the city as there is other club called AEK in Larnaca, Cyprus. How can I stop this? Asturkian (talk) 20:57, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I have seen that at numerous articles with links to AEK - where some editors refuse to allow the "Athens" to be added. I think it has something to do witht he club originating in Turkey. Anyway, yeah, it's nonsense, as the club for decades has been known mainly as AEK Athens.Bluesangrel (talk) 16:49, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Greek Basket League and Panathinaikos B.C. articles constantly adding non championships

At the Greek Basket League and Panathinaikos B.C. articles, for a very long time now, numerous editors keep adding a fake championship title to Panathinaikos' history. The club has in fact won 35 Greek league titles, but both articles are constantly (almost no stop) edited to show they won 36 Greek league titles. What editors are doing is adding an Athens city tournament title from 1921 (6 years before the Greek league even existed) to the Greek league record. Which of course is absolutely impossible, since the league didn't even exist then. The problem seems to stem from the official website of Panathinaikos, where they claim the 1921 Athens city title as a Greek league title (it's not), and as the "first Greek championship" (it's not - that was in 1928), and in fact it was not even the first Athens city tournament (that was in 1919). So what can be done to solve this problem?Bluesangrel (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Follow Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution. For example, you could start a talk page discussion about what you believe is correct, and tag the disputed text on the article with {{Disputed inline}}.—Bagumba (talk) 17:39, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that is correct though, since this isn't disputed in any way at all. There is no debate or dispute that exists. There are edits that are simply incorrect and every source in existence verifies that. So that's why I am asking, since I don't think it falls under such category, when the fact is undisputed. The way I understand it, universally acknowledged facts don't need to be disputed in Wikipedia. Unless I understand it wrong.Bluesangrel (talk)

I'd suggest following Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution to put an end to this conclusively. –H T D 03:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Luka Dončić article troll edits

I notice at the Luka Dončić article that there quite a few troll edits. Should the page be semi-protected?Bluesangrel (talk) 23:44, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

To request a page to be protected, please go to WP:RFPP. –H T D 03:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposed change to basketball guideline

See Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Proposed_change_to_basketball_guideline for a discussion on a proposed change to the basketball notability guidelines.--TM 12:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Sid Nelson (basketball) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Sid Nelson (basketball) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sid Nelson (basketball) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Giant Snowman 10:54, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox coach awards

I thought the infobox awards listed under coaching, was for head coaching, not for anytime as a coach (assistant or otherwise), but I see in a lot of articles, awards or titles won while an assistant coach. Now I'm not sure, especially since it';s quite vague to just list "as coach" under that heading, and it's confusing. So which is it, is it just for head coaching, or anytime ever as a coach (even a lowest rung assistant)?Bluesangrel (talk) 21:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I am not a fan of listing assistant coach awards, but there isn't any consensus prohibiting it. If they are included they should be clearly marked "as assistant coach"" though (example - Danny Manning). Rikster2 (talk) 21:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, the articles where I am seeing this just list the awards without saying it as assistant coach, which implies it is as a head coach.Bluesangrel (talk) 22:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

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The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background

On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. — The Transhumanist 07:26, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

LaVar Ball's new league

Generally, we have not been listing BIG3 stints in the opening sentence or infobox of bios. I believe the same principle for fledgling leagues should apply to LaVar Ball's new Junior Basketball Association. Specifically, for pros who have already been in more notable leagues like Charles O'Bannon, the JBA can be listed in the body instead of in the first sentence or infobox. It's probably fine for players like Greg Floyd Jr. who are just out of high school and haven't played anywhere else professionally.—Bagumba (talk) 09:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Part of the Big3 argument is because it isn't traditional basketball - it's 3 on 3 basketball. I don't have a problem seeing if the league "takes," but it's probably on the level of the "new" ABA. Rikster2 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

LNB Pro A Notability

LNB Pro A is not on the list of WP:NSPORTS yet seems to be the top basketball league in France. Wondering if players of this league meet notability if they've appeared in a game since there is a user making lots of pages for these players and I'm trying to run through them on New Page Patrol. Thanks in advance! SEMMENDINGER (talk) 14:35, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

@Semmendinger: It would need to demonstrate that WP:GNG is met. It’s immaterial if a league is the highest level in its area if enough coverage doesn’t exist.—Bagumba (talk) 15:00, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Sure, as always. But on the list of reasons in NSPORTS we have listed "Basketball figures are presumed notable if they Have appeared in one game as either a player or head coach in the...." and it lists many leagues. Most of these players who have appeared very few times in their lives have 1-2 references, usually just some stat-tracking website or reference to their appearance in one game. In other words, their notability seems to be met simply due to the fact they appeared in one of these league's games at one point in their lives. I just tried this a couple times clicking through those leagues listed on NSPORTS, and I got players like Rustam Murzagaliyev, Jan Špan, Jan Barbarič, etc, who all have terribly unsourced pages but haven't been deleted because I'm assuming their appearance in these leagues was enough to meet this "presumed notability". Now, as to my question, LNB Pro A is not on that list. Should that league meet presumed notability, and should a player from one of those teams have at least one reference verifying that fact, I would feel comfortable reviewing the page. My question is, is the LNB Pro A league on par with the rest in this case? SEMMENDINGER (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

@Semmendinger: There would need to be consensus to add LNB Pro A to the WP:NBASKETBALL list. Particularly, see Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)/FAQ#Q5. For Rustam Murzagaliyev, I had reverted the addition of VTB United League before as it didn’t appear to have consensus, but it seems to have snuck back in. I invite you to revert it if you think it does not belong. As for the other leagues, I wouldn’t be surprised if some should not have been presumed notable. My gut feeling is that it was less stringent in the past, and some top leagues in a country were added without regard to whether sufficient coverage existed. Someone would need to be willing to invest the time to convince the community that a given league should be removed.—Bagumba (talk) 16:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Just want to point out that your removal of these leagues was reverted the same day by some user. As for the LNB Pro A, it is a pretty weak league and it is nowhere near the VTB United League or any other league mentioned there. Most players would fail WP:GNG. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:37, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm not a part of this WikiProject and have no interest in changing rules, was just wondering where the people on this project stood with players in that league. I won't be touching those articles then as I don't think they meet GNG outside of the WP:NSPORTS criteria anyway. Thanks! SEMMENDINGER (talk) 20:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Both VTB United League and LNB Pro A should be on the notability list. Leagues that are far less important are already on there. Secondary pan European leagues like EuroCup and BCL should also be on there. Bluesangrel (talk) 16:48, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I would argue that the LNB Pro A is on par with the top Spanish league and should be listed in the notability guidelines - provided there are refs of course. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 17:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

As I understand it, for a league to be added to the WP:NBASKETBALL list of leagues where notability is presumed, it has to be demonstrated that even the end-of-bench players would pass WP:GNG. Do all players that have played in the LNB Pro A pass WP:GNG? Dammit_steve (talk) 18:48, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I looked at LNB Pro A a few years ago and wasn’t convinced that every one of their players met GNG. It seemed like the stars and heavy rotation guys did but the end of the bench guys didn’t. And that’s including looking at French sources. As an aside, if people aren’t convinced that all the leagues listed should qualify then let’s have that conversation. The point isn’t to keep adding leagues as a race to the bottom where the SSG isn’t actually indicative of subjects being notable. I’d hate to see us become soccer, which includes leagues like the United Soccer League, where I can guarantee you not every player is notable (it’s a US minor league - we don’t even assume notability for the G League or Triple A baseball, both of which get significantly more coverage). These “this league is WAY better than league X that’s already in there” statements without any attempt to prove the case are thoroughly unconvincing. It’s not about the level of play in the league, it’s about the coverage the league gets that would indicate players are likely to meet GNG. Just my 2 cents. Rikster2 (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

The other thing I’d say is that maybe it’s time to consider a tiered guideline like WP:NHOCKEY. Theirs has a level where every player meets GNG, then a level with a 200 game minimum, then a level where if you’ve won a significant award, etc. I actually think that reflects reality more than just a black and white “one game and you’re in” guideline. If you played 200 games in LNB A, you probably do meet GNG. If you were a first-team All-League player in the Belgian League, maybe that indicates notability, etc. Rikster2 (talk) 14:07, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

If you go by games played in a European league, you can't have it that high. Most European leagues play like round 25-30 games a season. LNB Pro A plays for example 34 games in the league season. Say a player played 30 out of 34 games on average a season (which is hard to do), then they wouldn't hit 200 games played until 7 years.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:12, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Names in roster templates

Can anyone please explain to me why names in basketball roster templates are presented as "[lastname], [firstname]" when that isn't how Western names are typically written? I only follow basketball at a fairly cursory level, so if this follows some sort of arcane custom held over from a prominent basketball reference book, I might understand, but at the moment it just looks a bit weird to see names written that way. Ideally we should write names "[firstname] [lastname]" and then include a key to allow correct alphabetical sorting of these names. We have to think of the readers first, and I think the current way is a little confusing to the average reader. Just to emphasise this point, basketball is the only one of the big four American sports that presents players' names this way. – Pee Jay 19:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I suppose I cen get behind a change, but it is really not all that confusing. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 20:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I did say it's a little confusing. But even so, wouldn't it make sense to go for consistency? – Pee Jay 20:09, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Aside from going with what's the usual order (for most Wesntern names, it's [firstname] [lastname], while for some Asian names it's actually [lastname] [firstname]), I would have preferred removing the team colors and just use the usual grays. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to be an ass, but can we stick to the topic of name order here please? The colours are a separate matter for a different discussion. – Pee Jay 20:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Eh sure, sorry about that. Looking at the template, I guess we'd only do a couple of minor edits at {{Player2}}. It's protected though. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

That shouldn't be a problem, as long as we can get a consensus here. Then we can request an admin to edit the template with this discussion as the rationale. – Pee Jay 12:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

The "Last name, First name" format is used in the template, because the majority of basketball leagues (NBA, EuroLeague or even Basketball Bundesliga to name a few) use that formation. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Can you show me evidence of that? The Chicago Bulls roster page, for example, lists all of their players in the format I've suggested. The Panathinaikos roster is the same, as is Bayern Munich's. – Pee Jay 13:24, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

The Official EuroLeague site uses [lastname], [firstname] on the teams roster list. The Basketball Bundesliga official site does not, at least not for single team roster lists. Dammit_steve (talk) 14:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Okay cool. So we have conflicting sources on this - would you agree, in that case, that it makes sense for us to try for some level of internal consistency on the encyclopaedia and change our format to "[first name] [last name]"? – Pee Jay 16:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Just want to add that when we go to other pages in the same website (Basketball Bundesliga, EuroLeague 1, EuroLeague 2 or EuroLeague 3) they use the "Last name, First name" formation. The NBA is even trickier, because here they use both formations, but in the gamebooks or in the statistics, including other pages, they use the "First name, Last name". Both the French LNB Pro A or Italian Lega Basket Serie A also use the strange formation like NBA depending on the page's content. I could go either way, but this inconsistency throughout the leagues is strange. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if there's some sort of technical reason why they might list last names first. Probably something to do with the ability to sort tables by name. If that is the case, we're not limited by the technicalities of those websites, so we can write names the normal way and use a sort key to achieve the same result. – Pee Jay 18:16, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, {{CBB roster/Player}} lists [first] [last]. If any changes are done, do make sure that the roster still sorts by last name correctly. Some "sortname" functionality would need to be added.—Bagumba (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Can anyone do this or do we need to inform someone else to do it, and where? Howard the Duck (talk) 19:13, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Follow up: How about for names where the last name comes first, such as Yao Ming? Howard the Duck (talk) 19:14, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Chinese names should remain last first also to be consistent.—Bagumba (talk) 17:02, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Serbia and Montenegro

There is ongoing merge proposal and Rfd, basically the question if S&M basketball teams deserve articles of their own (or are they same as Serbia). If you have any opinions, please express them. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:21, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Luka Doncic very clearly wrong height listing

Why does it matter that NBA lists him at 6-6, when it is so very clearly wrong and by 2 inches? At some point, this rule of only listing height by NBA or team listing has to have exceptions when the height listing are very clearly off, and 2 inches is very clearly wrong. Especially considering that the NBA is using his listed height from Europe from when he was 16, not 19.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Luka Dončić § Listed Height

– You already raised basically the same issue at the article talk page (WP:FORUMSHOP).—Bagumba (talk) 10:40, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

CBA seasons

Hello everyone, first of all sorry if this question has already been asked in the past. I have noticed that there are no single articles for CBA seasons, there is only one article (List of Continental Basketball Association seasons) that lists all of them with little detail. My question is: would it be possible to create separate articles for each CBA season (for example 1990–91 Continental Basketball Association season) with detailed stats, like the articles on NBA seasons? Would roster articles be notable? I have found a few websites (including Justsportsstats) that have pretty valuable information on CBA rosters and stats, so we would have reliable sources to create the pages. What do you think about it? Thank you in advance for the feedback! --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 09:47, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

We shouldn't create season articles that could never be more than stats (WP:NOTSTATS) Are there non-stat coverage of CBA seasons as a whole? If there are, I guess they would be offline. I know there are CBA annual registers published, but they aren't independent as the league probably published them.—Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

They would not be only stats, I would add a summary of "Notable occurrences" like in the NBA articles. There are a few press sources for those (even if the CBA was quite obviously not as followed as the NBA). My idea was to use NBA pages as models. My question was more about the notability of such CBA pages, would they be accepted or would they be deleted? --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 16:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

A CBA season is not inherently notable per WP:NSEASONS. Therefore, the article should be able to cite sources that demonstrate that WP:GNG is met. Otherwise, you run a higher risk of someone questioning its notability and AfDing it. One approach you might take is to follow WP:AVOIDSPLIT: ... editors are encouraged to work on further developing the parent article first, locating coverage that applies to both the main topic and the subtopic. Through this process, it may become evident that subtopics or groups of subtopics can demonstrate their own notability, and thus can be split off into their own article. Honestly, the NBA season articles are not the best models. I dont think any are GA status, and they contain a lot of indiscriminate trivia lists.—Bagumba (talk) 18:44, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your replies. Considering all this, I don't know if it's worth the effort. I'll leave it as it is for now. Thank you for your help! --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 09:08, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Changing official sourced capacities of all Euroleague arenas

An IP changed the official lusted and sourced capacities of all Euroleague arenas, at their articles, and at the Euroleague article and Euroleague season article. Is there any site policy on this? Can someone just chance all the capacities and give no reason why? Bluesangrel (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

CBA statistical leaders

Hello everyone, as I wrote earlier I've been researching the CBA stats and I've read that CBA statistical leaders are presumed notable according to basketball guidelines. My question is: I've seen that there's no Wikipedia page reporting the CBA statistical leaders, would it be possible to create a page like "List of Continental Basketball Association annual statistical leaders" (I'm guessing a possible title) with season leaders in points, rebounds, assists and steals? Separate pages for each category would probably too much because the CBA is not as relevant as the NBA, but since the players who led the CBA in these categories are notable, wouldn't a list be notable as well? Thank you in advance for your feedback! --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 18:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Medal icons in resultsboxes

There is a discussion at Olympics project regarding match templates and medal icons, i.e. if they should be shown (diff) or not shown (diff).

This affects basketball as well so please join at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics#Medal icons on team sport templates — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qed237 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

International leagues being given vague article names like First Federal League

The top Yugoslavian League for example has a vague article name of First Federal Basketball League. I don't think naming international leagues from non speaking countries in a vague way like that, and in English no less is going to work very well at all for the site. Bluesangrel (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

LeBron James Jr.

I am proposing merging this page with his father's, let's have a discussion. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 01:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

FYI: Discussion is at Talk:LeBron James Jr.#Proposed merge to LeBron James.—Bagumba (talk) 02:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

TBT MVP

Would being named MVP of The Basketball Tournament be considered a notable enough achievement to be listed under a player's career highlights and awards? While clearly not a league award, the TBT has grown in prominence over the past few years. GPL93 (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion it is reasonable to detail TBT in the prose and if there is a list of awards in the body of the article I feel like it would be fine to include. But it shouldn't go in the infobox - these somewhat ad hoc tournaments (BIG3 is similar) don't go in the infobox and so the MVP shouldn't go on that list. Rikster2 (talk) 15:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. It is notabl;e enough to list in the article, but no need for the infobox. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 16:32, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

BIG3 TfD

FYI

You are invited to discuss a BIG3 championship navbox at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_August_24#Template:Trilogy_2017_BIG3_champions.—Bagumba (talk) 08:05, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Roster templates

Hi. One editor here made template:squad maintenance, but can someone here tell me why we have a roster template in alpha order (on each team page) and a different roster template in numerical order (on each player page)? More questions later. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:01, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Are you referring to something like Template:Phoenix Suns roster (sorted by name) on team pages and navbox Template:Phoenix Suns current roster (sorted by number) on player pages? I had asked the same question last month for the NBA at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_34#Roster_ordering, but there was no real feedback on the origins of the convention.—Bagumba (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh good, Bagumba. Maybe we can do something to fix this. We had at least two, possibly three WNBA teams out of sync, with different rosters in each template. May I suggest in the interest of accuracy that we consider one list per team? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:02, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Good grief. As far as I can see the NBA lists by jersey number and the WNBA lists by last name. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: The two templates for each team serve two different purposes. One is an elaborate roster listing for team pages (e.g. Template:Phoenix Suns roster), while the other (Template:Phoenix Suns current roster) is a compact WP:NAVBOX placed on bottoms of bios to allow navigation to teammates. That's independent of why different sorting methods (name vs number) exists for the two types of templates.—Bagumba (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

May I suggest again that a team roster be one list and not two? It is nearly impossible to maintain accuracy when comparing an alpha order list to a numerical one. It should be a simple matter to 1) decide whichever order you want, and 2) harmonize the templates we have. I am happy to help. P.S. Bagumba, maybe I'm not being clear. Wouldn't we catch more errors if the two templates were sorted the same way? -SusanLesch (talk) 20:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Here is a concrete proposal. Keeping the NBA's convention of name-sorting and the established name-sorting of the elaborate template, let's make the compact navboxes match. What do you guys say? Then I will get some help and change the WNBA to match the NBA on Wikipedia. I am available to start work on this beginning this Friday August 31. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Note: I left a notice of this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association.—Bagumba (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

For the NBA, the proposed changes would be relevant to the current team navboxes at Category:National Basketball Association current roster navigational boxes as well as historical championship teams at Category:National Basketball Association Championship navigational boxes.—Bagumba (talk) 04:05, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe listing people in alphabetical order in "current roster" navboxes would look rather strange and would just make a mess. It is easier to navigate between players when we list them in numerical order in "current roster" navboxes. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:02, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Anthony Davis page move request

It has been 3.5 years since we discussed whether Anthony Davis (basketball) is the primary Anthony Davis. Join the discussion at Talk:Anthony_Davis_(basketball)#Requested_move_14_September_2018.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)