Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 20

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July 20[edit]

This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on July 20, 2021.

Buffalo horns[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 23:35, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article name implies it would talk about buffalo horns, however when I looked at the part of the article it redirected me to, it makes no mention of the buffalo horns outside of saying they use basically every part of the bison. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 22:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment there are 7 extant species listed at Buffalo#Animals. There is content about horns in the articles about 6 of them (Italian Mediterranean buffalo is the exception), so my gut feeling is that this redirect is too ambiguous to be useful. Thryduulf (talk) 23:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as ambiguous and not overly useful. I can't find a suitable target which specifically discusses buffalo or bison horns. A7V2 (talk) 00:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per the above. There is actually some tangential discussion about buffalo horns in the current target at Blackfoot_Confederacy#Headdresses, but this is but one possible desired target for those searching this ambiguous term. Anyone searching this term would be better served by search results illustrating possibly useful/interesting related information. Mdewman6 (talk) 02:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Mdewman6's points. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 11:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Aliases for Short description template[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was Clear consensus to delete the first 5, no consensus for the rest. signed, Rosguill talk 20:16, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural nomination/move from WP:TFD where these template redirects were initially listed. The nomination and TFD-provided comments are below (copied from this permalink). Primefac (talk) 22:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Short description template has seven aliases, but the current template documentation is clear that none of the aliases should be used as other templates, modules and gadgets explicitly search for the "short description" template by name — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 12:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete, to reduce clutter and confusion. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • The alternative to deletion here would be to tag the redirects with {{R from incorrect name}} so that (hopefully) a bot would come along to fix them whenever they're used. I'm not sure the complexity is worth the tradeoff, though, so I don't have a preference for that over deletion. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 15:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
    Speaking as the Bot in question, I have been fixing the use of the redirected templates for some while. Yesterday, there were none in mainspace. There are a few elsewhere, but nothing that should be an issue — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all. Editors sometimes don't realise the amount of work it takes to support redirects behind the scenes, often for very little value. This template is used once in an article. Most editors use automated tools to add it, or even none when it's added by another template, often an infobox. For the other manual uses, editors can be expected to take the time and learn the actual name of the template and use it. Gonnym (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete I ran a bot called shorty which monitored for {{SHORTDESC}} and converted. The bot was disabled April 29, 2021 for lack of need. The last conversion was July 2020. In total it converted 468 templates from January 2019 through July 2020. -- GreenC 19:20, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
    {{Shortdesc}} still has around 400 transclusion it will need AWB or bot work. The rest have handfuls of non-mainspace. -- GreenC 19:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
    Most of these are due to a recent template change and can easily be fixed in the template itself — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Note that there was a consensus to keep these redirects back in 2019 at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 January 24#Template:Brief description * Pppery * it has begun... 21:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • wrong venue, redirects are discussed at WP:MFD. Frietjes (talk) 22:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all as actively harmful. I used {{shortdesc}} for a year or so before I read the template documentation and realized that it doesn't actually work properly. Spicy (talk) 22:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as costly and not widely used. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 11:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • So I've been spending a lot of the past week working on a bot that parses wikitext, and am rather confused by WP:SDNOALIASES. I would never think to say that editors need to change their behaviors to make life easier for me as a programmer. We're very inconsistent on when a template is {{oneword}} and when it it is {{two words}}, so it's entirely reasonable for editors to expect some of these to exist, and likewise reasonable to expect a shortcut from the common abbreviation "shortdesc". Meanwhile I don't see why bot and script developers can't be more flexible. Keep #s5-7 as plausible variations of the actual name; delete the rest since it's less likely for someone to mix them up with the actual name. A bot/script parsing a page looking for this template can look for the regex \{{2}\s*[Ss]hort\s?desc(ription)?\s*\|, which would also fix the "don't put a space before the 's'" problem mentioned at SDNOALIASES. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 03:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As of now, there are zero uses of these seven redirects in the main space. I have a script that alerts me whenever an article uses one and I then weed them out. While this has been good for my edit count, the aliases have no purpose. If we delete them, then nobody can use the wrong template — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 14:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems like your second sentence explains the first. People are using these, so clearly the aliases do have a purpose. And if someone tries using one, previews the page, and sees a redlinked call to {{shortdesc}} at the top of the page, they may well get frustrated and give up rather than try to find the right template.
    While I still think it's weird for bot/script developers to expect users to work around their overly-narrow parsing (an issue that many bots and scripts runs into in any number of contexts without trying to make it quasi-policy that you have to do it the way they want), I'd also be fine with Elli's suggestion to set these to {{short description|{{{1|}}}|{{{2|}}}|pagetype={{{pagetype|}}}}} and set them to autosubst. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 21:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Convert {{shortdescription}}, {{shortdesc}}, and {{short desc}} to soft redirects which notify editors (with autoconfirmed-show to not confuse non-editors), delete the rest (and hopefully someone will write a bot to automatically bypass those soft redirects, maybe they could be coded to substitute to the proper template name and added to anomiebot's autosubst list?). Elli (talk | contribs) 03:46, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Margaret C. Ingalls[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 23:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete due to incorrect middle initial, should have been Margaret E. Ingalls. Skyerise (talk) 16:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Pratna-odia script[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 23:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not mentioned at the target, no results on Google Scholar, delete unless a justification can be provided. signed, Rosguill talk 15:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

"Scientific Renaissance"[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was speedy delete per WP:CSD#G7. Thryduulf (talk) 19:27, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Superfluous variant enclosed in quote marks. My own mistake. Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Florian Blaschke: If you want to delete a redirect that you have created you can just tag it with {{db-g7}}, it doesn't need a full week long RFD discussion. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Canceling hypothesis[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 23:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not mentioned at the target, internet and Google scholar searches do not suggest that this phrase is particularly associated with conspiracy theories. Delete unless a justification can be provided. signed, Rosguill talk 15:20, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

প্লাইমাউথ (সফটওয়্যার)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 23:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:RLOTE, no apparent connection between Bengali and the target. signed, Rosguill talk 15:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Afrimma[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 23:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AFRIMMA is African Musik Magazine Awards https://afrimma.com , which is different from AFRIMA All Africa Music Awards https://afrima.org. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 15:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Grounded videos[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 29#Grounded videos

P:TH[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 27#P:TH

Odea[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 29#Odea

Odeum[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was keep. And yes, please don't change redirects while they are under discussion: making it easier for editors to participate in a discussion and for closers to close it is more important than following BRD to the letter. signed, Rosguill talk 05:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation page Odeon does not disambiguate "Odeum". Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep and add the missing entries. The page notes that it does disambiguate "Odeum" Odea, Odeon, or Odeum may refer to:, and a search finds several pages that could be on the list. Thryduulf (talk) 11:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. "Odeum" is any theater or concert hall, in particular it is the name of a small roofed theater in ancient Greece and Rome. It is the Romanization of the Greek ᾨδεῖον. I've redirected the term to Odeon (building) (which really ought to be moved to "Odeum"). As Thryduulf's search shows there probably also needs to be an Odeum disambiguation page. Paul August ☎ 15:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please don't change a redirect while it is at RfD. Just say 'Retarget to Odeon (building)'. Don't change the redirect as it's very confusing looking at two keep !votes opining completely different actions. — J947 ‡ message ⁓ edits 20:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So in the meantime the redirect must stay disabled? That goes against WP:BRD. If an edit is questioned (as it is in this case) the default ought to be no change until the issue is resolved by discussion. Paul August ☎ 20:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The Baltimore Post-Examiner[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nominator. Who attempted to strike this nomination. (non-admin closure) CycloneYoris talk! 09:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that The Baltimore Examiner that folded in 2009 has anything to do with the Baltimore Post-Examiner, which is a current minor blog and news site LLC. This redirect seems incorrect. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 08:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

North and South Korea[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to North Korea-South Korea relations. (non-admin closure) CycloneYoris talk! 01:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose retarget to North Korea-South Korea relations. The reason being that people are more likely interested in the relations between the two Koreas than the geographical Korean peninsula. Aasim (talk) 01:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Retarget per nom. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 05:54, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment whichever article this targets should have a hatnote to the other as both are plausible. Thryduulf (talk) 11:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as the most directly applicable target of the term as entered, but add a hatnote to the relations article. Mdewman6 (talk) 02:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget per nom and No hatnote per WP:RELATED. Korea and North Korea–South Korea relations articles are related, and have links to each other. The reader doesn't need a hatnote to go from one to the other, and these articles are too major to be trivialized by a North and South Korea redirects here.. Jay (Talk) 18:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to North Korea–South Korea relations. The lead sentence of that article links Korean Peninsula, North Korea and South Korea. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:13, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Obock and Tadjoura[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to Obock#French Somaliland. signed, Rosguill talk 05:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Only has 340 pageviews, and I can't find anything useful in the Etymology and History sections of Djibouti, or from a DDG search. dudhhrContribs 09:43, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Perhaps Obock or Obock Region would be better targets. They have info about the history of this region that's not in the wider article Djibouti. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Obock and Tadjoura are the only significant towns in this part of the country and so there are many references to the area between them. That would suggest an XY situation, however looking deeper that isn't the case as they were previously both French colonies then territories which were frequently discussed together before and after being merged to form French Somaliland (a predecessor state of Djibouti). This is very clearly a plausible search term that should lead somewhere, but we don't have a single good target that covers all this yet. Obock is the most developed article, so we could do worse than target it there even though History of Djibouti or French Somaliland should be better targets the information there is currently less helpful. I'm not sure what to recommend. Thryduulf (talk) 10:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The source of this redirect is List of colonial governors in 1885 (and 86,87,88), where I replaced the original piped links with this redirect. Those list articles describe Léonce Lagarde as "Commandant of Obock and Tadjoura (1884–1887)". Colonies Chris (talk) 23:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 10:32, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Editors have yet to make a firm statement about how this should be resolved.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 00:43, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as there doesn't seem to be a suitable target. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 05:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although it is not clear if Obock and Tadjoura together was considered a political / administrative entity, that fact that it became all of French Somaliland, I would prefer that to be the target. However since the French Somaliland section within Obock is more comprehensive than the corresponding section in Tadjoura, and the French Somaliland page itself, Retarget to Obock § French Somaliland for now. Jay (Talk) 06:57, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget per Jay, as this will be the most helpful for readers currently. When we get better content in the other articles this can be retargetted, but we should be focused on what is best now and that certainly isn't deletion. Thryduulf (talk) 09:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Joey Diggs[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 10:43, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any reference of "Joey Diggs" to Coca-Cola or anything else and this is also a double redirect. Liz Read! Talk! 02:42, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you found a reference that didn't come up in my Google search. Liz Read! Talk! 23:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 07:15, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (even if mentioned at target). There are around 30 articles that mention Joey Diggs (none of them are redlinks though) and there is no reason to target him to Coca Cola alone. Jay (Talk) 07:54, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep as {{R to song}} and {{R without mention}}. Redirects don't need to be mentioned unless they are part of disambiguations. If he's notable beyond the one song, you can create the music artist article. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 19:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 00:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete If he's not notable, we should show search results since he's written lots of different songs, rather than pointing to one of his songs arbitrarily. If he is notable, Wikipedia should have a redlink to signal editors that we need someone to write an article about him. 61.239.39.90 (talk)
  • Delete per IP's points. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 06:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Horse Jew[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. signed, Rosguill talk 05:06, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not mentioned in the article or related articles. Gonnym (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The article mentions Timon, a Jewish horse trader. Some Googling says he at least occasionally is referred to as "the horse Jew". A mention doesn't need to be word-for-word if the concept it refers to (in this case, there being a Jewish horse trader) is mentioned. My only concern here would be ambiguity—plenty of Jews throughout history have interacted with horses—but some brief Googling makes me think this is the only usage of the term of any encyclopedic notability. Retarget to List of Rome characters#Timon, where Timon (Rome character) already points. But I'd be interested in any further research on other potential targets. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 10:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A "Jewish horse trader" and a "Horse Jew" are not really the same thing. Gonnym (talk) 10:24, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Right, but it appears (from Google) that "Horse Jew" is his nickname, and that, in the context of the show, it is meant as synonymous with "Jewish horse trader". And both the current target and my suggested new one explain to a reader why the term "Horse Jew" has led them there, even if that nickname isn't mentioned. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 10:41, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tamzin btw, could you link me to your google results? For me none of "Horse Jew", "Horse Jew Rome" or "Horse Jew Rome TV series" leads to a result which mentions "Horse Jew". It does lead to results which have the words "Jew" and "Horse" in the text, separated by a lot of other words. Gonnym (talk) 08:43, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gonnym: Here you go. The trick is putting "Horse Jew" in quotation marks. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 08:46, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per reason given by Tamzin.★Trekker (talk) 15:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 06:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; "horse Jew" is used just once in the series and almost nowhere else. With Wikipedia "echoes" removed Tamzin's search ("horse jew" timon -wikipedia) returns 48 "most relevant results" of 1,530 total hits. Only the first 15 have anything to do with the series or the character. The first and fifth are an essay by Bar-Ilan University classics professor Lisa Maurice who writes "He is described briefly once in episode 5 as “Timon the Horse Jew”..." Once. Evidently not an on-screen nickname.

    Eight of the fifteen are multilingual dictionaries that have all copied the phrase from opensubtitles.org as an example. One reviewer quotes the sobriquet (Timon, "the Horse Jew") leaving just four instances where "horse Jew" was used as a sobriquet per se and not simply as part of a quote. Four. Clearly not an off-screen nickname, either. Yappy2bhere (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 00:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per yappy2bhere Avilich (talk) 00:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Delete - use for the character doesn't seem common. At least for me searching for "horse jew" brings up this redirect first, followed by etsy, pinterest, Urban Dictionary, and a page on wish.com titled "These horse-jew are stunning". I'm not convinced that there's a single primary meaning for this. Hog Farm Talk 04:46, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Effective power[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was disambiguate. Per Ivanvector's advice, I have indeed "rough[ed] in a dab", emphasis on "rough"! I tried to keep things extremely simple and probably still got some wrong. Please, please don't treat this as a Sacred Admin Decision. Go hog wild improving it. Any topic discussed below that I didn't include was entirely due to lack of understanding on my part, not a judgment that it shouldn't be included. (And even Mean effective pressure, I assume, should have a proper entry rather than a see-also listing. I just wasn't sure how to describe it.) --BDD (talk) 21:46, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Google results suggest that this term is primarily used in the context of the "effective power" bug. The term "effective power" is never used verbatim at the current target, although a few similar terms are. I propose that we retarget to SpringBoard#"effective power" bug, with hatnote to current target. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 12:54, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not effective power bug. Constant314 (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to horsepower. Effective power is a measurement of the actual power output of an engine-driven mechanical system after engine power is lost through transmission (drivetrain, gearing, heat losses, etc.). This is described, albeit poorly, in the horsepower article. Google results being dominated by the software bug is an example of systemic bias. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 13:10, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Disambiguate per below. There may be other potential targets but none come to mind at the moment. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 17:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget to horsepower per PEIsquirrel. A hatnote can be added to the software bug. Thryduulf (talk) 13:18, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm also fine with disambiguation per below. Thryduulf (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep as to alternating current Effective power is a specific electical engineering term: "effective power: In alternating-current power transmission and distribution, the product of the rms voltage and amperage, i.e., the apparent power, multiplied by the power factor, i.e., the cosine of the phase angle between the voltage and the current. ... Synonym true power." Redirecting to horsepower would clearly be an error. There's probably an article in Wikipedia that would be better to direct this to, (I'll look for one) but "alternating current" is OK, and "horsepower" would clearly be an error. North8000 (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Change to AC power which explains it more fully. "Effective power" is a lesser-used synonym for true power. North8000 (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I don't understand why redirecting to the specific mechanical engineering concept (at horsepower) would be an "error". Maybe disambiguation is in order, but I'm interested to see if you find a better supporting article for the EE topic. I'm aware of rms power and true power in transmission systems but hadn't ever seen it called effective power. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 13:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm with Ivanvector here. I wasn't aware of an electrical engineering usage but the mechanical engineering usage is very clearly at least as valid and no more an "error" than redirecting to the electrical engineering usage would be from an mech eng perspective. Thryduulf (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe should be disambig? The horsepower article also does not mention the term. I think that there is a difference between a codified term and a descriptive two word sequence. I'm sure that the latter shows up in many other places but is it a codified term in any of them? North8000 (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It does, very briefly, under Horsepower#Measurement. That section is in need of improvement and references. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 15:35, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To me that looks more descriptive than that term. But either way, I didn't notice the suggested disambiguate idea and so two of us independently came up with that idea and maybe that is the best way to go. North8000 (talk) 17:12, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree that this is at best a term for disambiguation. "Effective power" is not defined in IEEE Std. 100 in the context of AC circuits. I don't recall this being used as a synonym for "real power" in my limited, parochial, experience. The first few pages of hits on Google Books seem to mostly concern "effective power" of steam engines but most uses are just plain English and don't seem to have a special jargon-y meaning. The phrase is too general to be associated with one particular use, I think. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:04, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely *do not* redirect to the bug, it looks like a short term not really important use of the expression. From my days of unfinished electrical engineering I would think of AC power as noted by North8000, e.g it is typical to say a power source has a potential maximum power but it only gives away some effective power, due to 'imperfections' making tension and current to be out of phase. That would be the 'active' or 'real' power mentioned in AC. Given it is also used for mechanical power measurement, probably the best is to create a disambiguation (or a stub, or a section at some 'power' related article). - Nabla (talk) 15:50, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 00:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and (5) the iPhone bug of course. Yappy2bhere (talk) 10:50, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wanted to close this as disambiguate, but wasn't sure how to write the page. Is it accurate (or close enough) to say effective power is a synonym for horsepower? Is it a subtopic of horsepower, like what's mentioned at Horsepower#Measurement? Is it a synonym for AC power, or close enough? I can't find any mention there. --BDD (talk) 15:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"In electronics, the average AC power." In the article, a synonym for real power or active power. (Terrible article; second paragraph of the lede has serious errors, and apparent power as given is correct but useless and opaque.)
"In mechanics," (kinematics? physics? idk), "the power available for useful work." Effective power is a measurement that may be denominated in units of horsepower; they're not synonymous. However, the (unsourced) definition in Horsepower#Measurement is one of several mechanical usages that all basically mean "measured power" or "power available for useful work" as opposed to "theoretical" or "calculated" power, the power in equation 32.4 of your textbook that neglects losses and which you'll never measure and probably can't be measured directly.
"In a marine engine, power as calculated from the measured mean effective pressure." No reason it has to be a marine engine, but idk that MEP is used elsewhere. Static plant, maybe? In this context effective power is not Horsepower#Shaft horsepower, though in other contexts it may be. So, good luck with that.
"In naval architecture, the power needed to propel a ship's hull through the water at a constant speed." Usually this is shaft power; idk if that's de rigueur. Unfortunately the article doesn't mention 'effective power' and wiki-rules don't permit you to disambiguate a term to an article that doesn't use it. So, good luck with that too.
"In optometry, the optical power (inverse focal length) of a corrective lens at a vertex distance other than the prescription distance." Or maybe the Eye_examination#Refraction distance [4].
User:Ivanvector seems knowledgeable; maybe ping 'em and ask. Yappy2bhere (talk) 20:02, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm hardly an expert; while I was in school for electrical engineering I was the electronics captain for a student racing team that was otherwise composed entirely of mechanical engineering students, so I have some exposure I did not finish either program, and that was 20 years ago. It's not correct to say that effective power is a synonym of horsepower: power can be measured at different points and different conditions of a mechanical drivetrain; effective power is one of those points, and horsepower is a unit of the measurement wherever it's measured. The effective power is the power that the entire engine and drivetrain system delivers to whatever is being driven (e.g. the wheels in a car, the traction wheel in a locomotive, the tool spindle in a shop machine) and can be significantly lower than the engine's power with nothing connected because of the rotational weight of the drivetrain itself, but both measurements are expressed as horsepower. For electrical systems, average power isn't quite right. It's analogous to the mechanical concept in that it's one way to measure power: for a continuous AC signal (i.e. a sine wave), phase differences caused by capacitive and inductive loads and other complex effects create differences in power depending on how and when it's measured; effective power is one such measurement (as described by North8000; as I said I haven't personally heard of effective power in electrical systems). If I remember right it's an approximation (or a special case for sine waves) of the integral under the signal curve (see root mean square). Mathematically speaking, the average of a sine wave is zero, but obviously AC systems do deliver power. I'm not exactly sure how to describe either of these in a good dab-summary format. The other three that Yappy2bhere mentioned I'm not so familiar with, but I would guess that the measurements for marine engines and naval systems have analogues in aircraft engines and aeronautics.
BDD, you could always close this and rough in a dab, then we can all try to work on it or recruit the appropriate wikiprojects to help. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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