Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 September 26

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

September 26[edit]

This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 26, 2018.

National Library of Northern Ireland[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 October 6#National Library of Northern Ireland

Historia de bulgaria (cronología)[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. Deryck C. 14:59, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RFOREIGN creations by Lasita169, none of these topics have any affinity with the Spanish language. -- Tavix (talk) 22:17, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Non-existent user rights[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 October 6#Non-existent user rights

United States International University[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was keep. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 04:02, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The name United States International University doesn't appear in the target article. And Google's first suggestions are for United States International University Africa. So I propose Retarget to United States International University Africa. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:43, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep per {{R from former name}}. The nominator's rationale is incorrect, the term is mentioned several times at the article, including: in 1968, the school's name was changed to United States International University. The current target explains the naming situation and has links to the African campus should that be what someone wants (although I'm not sure how plausible that is because I don't see evidence that the African campus is known solely as "United States International University"). -- Tavix (talk) 20:01, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Tavix. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 16:15, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Quacky McQuackface[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was speedy deleted per G7. -- Tavix (talk) 19:30, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence this is a legitimate alternative name for the Anaheim Ducks. Search results are scant and unhelpful, and it's not mentioned at the target. -- Tavix (talk) 19:17, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joseph2302: Why would that be reasonable? -- Tavix (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because ducks quack. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:23, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. A Google search for the term returns only hits for a design applied to socks and other novelty products. I don't think this redirect is useful to any target. —C.Fred (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Happy to delete per G7 not sure why I created this in first place. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Schismatic Greek[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. The consensus seems to be that there isn't established usage of the term "Schismatic Greek" in English. Deryck C. 15:02, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It took me a long time to figure what would be the rationale for these redirects. Using the term schismatic to refer to Eastern Orthodox is actually pejorative, obsolete or at least very old-fashioned, and is not even mentioned on schismatic or wikt:schismatic. Any way, I doubt that "Schismatic Greek" would be an established term as required by WP:RNEUTRAL. Place Clichy (talk) 10:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete, though not quite per nom. I don't think this is suggesting all of Greek Orthodoxy as schismatic. Why would it be pointing at a specific church then? But various Greek churches can be considered schismatic, from various points of view (e.g., Greek Old Calendarists, who are broken off from mainstream Orthodoxy). So the problem is that this is just too vague, though the non-neutrality certainly adds to that. Interestingly, all uses of the phrase refer to descriptions of Middle Eastern communities written by Victor Guérin in the 19th century. What he called "Schismatic Greeks" are apparently Melkite Greek Catholic Church, who are affiliated with the Catholic, not Orthodox, Church. Not that I'm recommending we point there—it's just further evidence of how there's no good place for this. --BDD (talk) 14:54, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    All "Schismatic Greeks" occurences I found on Ggl are in 19th-century publications written from a Catholic POV, or a Catholic context. In this era, there would have been no ambiguity that it would refer to Orthodoxy. See for instance its use in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. This usage became pejorative with the advent of ecumenism. Old-fashioned Catholics of the time would actually probably have considered kind to call their contemporaries schismatic instead of heretics, a much worse offence in their eyes. All instances in Wikipedia are actually taken from the 1874 travel account in Palestine by Victor Guérin, a Catholic, of which the original is in French and found here. Guérin uses "Grecs schismatiques" for the Greek Orthodox and, insterestingly, "Grecs récemment convertis" for the Greek Catholics, a.k.a. Melkites. Nobody would ever translate these terms today by "Schismatic Greeks", and I corrected some if not all of these occurences as poor translations. Place Clichy (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think we should have the redirection, but to what, well, that I am completely open to. The thing is: Victor Guérin use that expression a lot, describing the inhabitants in various places in then Palestine in the 19th century. Those descriptions are often quoted verbatim into the articles about theses places. Im not sure wheter "Schismatic Greek" is considered pejorative today, but back then it surely wasn't. So therefor I am agains deleting it. (It would be like replacing all instances of "negro" in a 19th century American texts with "Afro American": just unhistoric.) But to repeat: which of the eastern Greek churches it should redirect to, well, I am frankly not sure, Huldra (talk) 20:22, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Part of the trouble is that Guérin's original text is in French. You must respect word for word text that you cite if it is either Guérin's original French or a translation made by someone else, but if we translate it ourselves, the best practice is to replace an expression in the original language that would be widely understood by the author's contemporaries by an expression in English that would be widely understood today carrying the same meaning. Therefore 1874 French "Grecs schismatiques" used by a Catholic French traveller in the Levant is, imho, best translated by "Greek Orthodox" because this is what English speakers and locals use today for this community, without any prejudice as in the original per your own analysis. Also, all the quotes we are currently discussing are in pieces of text that are neither about Guérin himself, about religion nor about the 1870s, but about the demographic history of Palestinian and Lebanese villages, next to other traveller accounts or census. Therefore there is absolutely no need to place any specific mention about the Orthodox being "schismatic". Lastly, re: "Victor Guérin use that expression a lot", looking for "schismatiques" in the original text returns only 3 occurences in 488 pages. Even though OCR may be unperfect, this is far from "a lot". Place Clichy (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, that is only 1 (out of 7) books Guérin wrote about the region, User:Huldra/Guerin#1875_Samarie_2, to be exact. And Samarie 2 was mostly about the northern West Bank: not the area where there were most Christians, (they were typically further north, in Galilee, or southern Lebanon). Also, lots of writers have translated Guérin to English: eg Adam Zertal use him extensively in his The Manasseh Hill Country series, Conder and Kitchener quote (and translate him) extensively in their 3 volume 1880s Survey of Western Palestine. From my (faulty!) impression, the writers of the day used "Greek Orthodox" to indicate those who were under the main Greek Orthodox Church, while "Grecs schismatiques" was used about the "splinter" groups, Huldra (talk) 20:11, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    And if so, you have just gone and changed the religious affiliation of the people of, say Khiam and Kafr Malik. I suggest that if none of us are 100% sure what Guérin meant, then we should leave it at "Schismatic Greek", without any redir. Huldra (talk) 20:18, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe this is an editorial discussion (and a quality one), maybe this RfD page is not the right venue. There is no doubt whatsoever that, in that time and from Guérin's POV, "Grecs schismatiques" refers to Eastern/Greek Orthodox. To support this, consider that 1°) in his village population descriptions he contrasts "Grecs schismatiques" with Muslims and Catholics, so what you call "splinter groups" from the Greek Orthodox, i.e. essentially Melkites, are described by Guérin as Catholics (he even uses "Grecs récemment convertis", i.e. recently converted Greeks in one abstract) and 2°) the following extract from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, which has a similar if not identical POV, in its article "Greek Church § I. Explanation Of Terms" (emphasis is mine):

    The term Orthodox Greek Church, or even simply the Orthodox Church, designates, without distinction of speech, or race, or nationality, all the existing Churches of the Byzantine Rite, separated from Rome. They claim to be a unit and to have the same body of doctrine, which they say was that of the primitive Church. As a matter of fact, the orthodoxy of these Churches is what we call heterodoxy, since it rejects the Papal Infallibility, and the Papal Supremacy, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, that of Purgatory, etc. However, by a polite fiction, educated Catholics give them the name of Orthodox which they have usurped. The term Schismatic Greek Church is synonymous with the above; nearly everybody uses it, but it is at times inexpedient to do so, if one would avoid wounding the feelings of those whose conversion is aimed at.

    — Siméon Vailhé, "Greek Church § I. Explanation Of Terms", Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)
The relation of Catholics with Eastern Churches is quite different now, and very different language would be used today, as shown in the 1964 Athenagoras-Paul VI Jerusalem meeting which resumed relationship between the two Churches, the Catholic–Orthodox Joint Declaration of 1965, the 1993 Balamand declaration etc. Note also the use of the word "conversion" in the extract: I am not sure if it is a transcription error of the Freudian type, as I would have expected the word "conversation" instead in this sentence, or if the author actually thinks that the only purpose one would have of interacting with Orthodox schismatics is to convert them.
Af far as the discussed redirects are concerned, I still believe that Deletion is in order, as the terms have fallen out of use and, even in the 19th and early 20th centuries, would have been showing a very strong Catholic-centered POV, clearly acknowledged in the above extract: "it is at times inexpedient to [use this term], if one would avoid wounding the feelings...". Place Clichy (talk) 10:11, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we can surely agree with the above 1913 text that "...these distinctions have not been, and are not, even now, always observed that a great confusion has arisen in the terminology of those who write or speak of the Eastern (Oriental) Churches and of the Greek Church." However, that 1913 text equated "Greek Orthodox" and "Schismatic Greek"...and that is something Guérin (writing between 1863 and 1875) didn't do. So this doesn't add up. Again, I suggest we just delete the redir, and just keep Guérin's original expressions ("Grecs schismatiques", etc), Huldra (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Huldra: What makes you write that Guérin doesn't 'equate "Greek Orthodox" and "Schismatic Greek"'? In the cultural and national context in which he writes, there would be no doubt whatsoever that these terms are synonymous. The notions of "great confusion in terminology" in your abstract refers to such terms as "Greek" or "Eastern", certainly not "schismatic". If you mean that Guérin does not use the word "Orthodox", it is precisely because he wouldn't use the word for a group his fellows considered, at that time, heterodox. He therefore uses the word "schismatiques" instead, as a euphemism. Consider for instance this abstract (found here: "Chapitre 53 - Kefr Yasif". Despcription géographique, historique et archéologique de la Palestine. Vol. Troisième partie - Descrption de la Galilée - tome II. 1880. p. 4., where mention of "iconostasis" and "gift from Russia" clearly point to Eastern Orthodox:

Kefr Yasif renferme 600 habitants, parmi lesquels 100 tout au plus sont Musulmans ; les autres appartiennent à la religion grecque schismatique. Ces derniers ont une église qui date de cent quarante ans et dans l'intérieur de laquelle quelques tableaux passables, qui ornent l'iconostase, sont, m'a-t-on dit, un don de la Russie.

I suggest indeed deleting the redirects (note to closer: we seem to all agree on that), and presenting Guérin quotes, when absolutely necessary to keep the original wording, as for instance: According to Victor Guérin in his 1875 account of his visit to the town, it was then inhabited by 10,000 Muslims, 400 "Schismatic Greeks" (Greek Orthodox), 40 Catholics and 10 Protestants. Place Clichy (talk) 10:09, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, look at Marjayoun, there Guérin writes that the population is Grecs schismatiques, and Grec unites (in addition to Muslims.) About Khiam he also divide it into Grecs schismatiques, and Grec unites. And Conder and Kitchener has translated that directly. So clearly there is a division between schismatiques, and unites (or, at least, it was so at the time), Huldra (talk) 23:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

The Veneto[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was no consensus. (non-admin closure) Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:58, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I propose the deletion of this redirect because it is unreasonable and highly redundant. It has been seldom used and it is currently orphan. I am aware of the existance of redirects such as The United States, The United Kingdom and The European Union: they also look redundant to me, but at least the "the United States" is a common and correct expression. Consistently with what I am proposing, we do not have The Italy, The France, The Canada, The Germany, The South Africa, The Japan, etc. So why should we have "The Veneto"? One thing people usually check is Google hits: there are 1,130,000 results for "the veneto", but also 2,060,000 for "the Italy", 3,720,000 for "the france", 13,300,000 for "the canada" and so on. Checco (talk) 09:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - the article is useless, per WP:DEFINITE. Place Clichy (talk) 10:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep "The Veneto" does seem to have some use, including a few times in the article itself (eg: ...the business volume of tourism in the Veneto is estimated to be in the vicinity of 12 billion Euros.). -- Tavix (talk) 14:35, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Tavix. Veneto seems to be one of those places, like (the) Ukraine, where the definite article is occasionally used in English. Google hits are not a particularly useful measurement here as searches for "the Veneto" or "the France" will also turn up pages using "the Veneto region", "The France Show" etc., which don't support the idea that the phrase being searched for is in common use. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 13:37, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That was my argument: there is no evidence that "the Veneto" is particularly used and is basically a mistake, as "the France" would be. Moreover, "the Veneto" is currently an orphan link and could be easily deleted. --Checco (talk) 06:12, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No, yours was the complete opposite argument: you argued that Google results are useful for determining whether this redirect should be kept, whereas I argued that they're useless. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 12:14, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Arms & Hearts: My argument was exactly the opposite. Google is such a bad indicator in this context that there are hits also for "The Veneto" and "The France". "The Veneto" is wrong and unreasonable as much as "The France". --Checco (talk) 12:44, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2018_September_26&oldid=1036307120"