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Gubby Allen[edit]

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I've listed this article for peer review because I'm hoping to take this article to FAC soon. Gubby Allen was many things in cricket; a player, an administrator and a bit of a reactionary. An awful lot happened to him in his life, and although not the most sympathetic character, he had an interesting story. As usual, I'd be grateful for comments on any prose issues and accessibility to the non-cricket reader. Additionally, this is quite a long one (and I think justifiably as he had a long, active life which impacted widely on cricket) so if there is any excess detail or padding please feel free to point it out.

Thanks, Sarastro1 (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Preliminary comment: I've not started to review yet, but please look at first paragraph of the "Success" subsection. In the Test you describe, Allen's score was 122; it was Ames who scored 137. And their partnership of 246 was for the eighth wicket. I hope Swanton gets it right in the source! Brianboulton (talk) 22:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh boy. I think this article has affected my brain. I'm suffering from some kind of "Gubby-resistance". Fixed now. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 comments[edit]

  • Unlike last time, I do have at least one comment here. In Cambridge University, I see "University match" and "University Match", which I'd imagine should be consistent. More later... Giants2008 (Talk) 00:26, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bodyline series: Bradman is already linked a couple of sections up.
  • Before the war: There's a glaring repetitive word in "became an amateur before the season and became another candidate."
  • War service: Maybe it's just my eye, but I'd prefer more variety than having three straight sentences start with "He" at the end of the section. Even putting his last name in once would be an improvement.
  • Last years as a cricketer: "In three Tests, he scored 94 run and took five wickets." "runs" should be plural, I believe.
  • Got all these, I think. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:25, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • D'Oliveira affair: Is "Establishment" supposed to be capitalized? Giants2008 (Talk) 00:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this case, yes. We even have an article, although I don't think it's relevant enough to link to. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:25, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton[edit]

Article title
  • As he was generally known in cricket as "G.O. Allen", shouldn't this be the title? Or possibly "G.O. (Gubby) Allen"? The unadorned nickname, which is only explained in a footnote, might set a precedent for the re-establishment of monstrosities as "Dodge Whysall".
  • I usually agree with you, but in this case I think "Gubby" is justified. There is not one cricket source which does not refer to him as "Gubby"; none call him George except in passing, and only rather old-style sources such as Wisden use the formal G. O. Allen. I think we are safe from setting too much of a precedent as this is a fairly unique instance of a common nickname. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • Footnote: shouldn't we identify the uncle who played for Australia? According to ODNB this was in 1887; my researches reveal that "R.C. Allen" played at the SCG in February 1987, scored 14 and 30 and wasn't picked again. Incidentally, I've seen the ODNB photograph, and if that's Gubby Allen in 1932-33 then I'm Don Bradman.
  • Done; and I agree that it is an odd looking photograph. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • First line: maybe mention his England credentials before county etc – see e.g. Jardine, MacLaren, Leyland etc
  • "when the home team won 3–2" → "where the home team won 3–2"?
  • Contribution to coaching manual mentioned twice in lead
  • "highly involved in the team": perhaps "closely involved" – but I'm still not sure what you mean by this. He was obviously involved in team selection, but how else was he involved? Did he coach them, make friends with them, go to the pub with them, etc? Perhaps it would be simpler to just say: "during which time he worked closely with Peter May, the captain."
  • Final para needs a bit of rounding off. Otherwise it reads a bit as though the D'Oliveira affair ended Allen's role as a cricket administrator.
Early life
  • Probably should be "née Lamb"
  • I am wondering whether the "son of Warner" story should be at least mentioned in the main text – not the full details, but it's a fairly intriguing theory, and it's a shame to confine it to a footnote that may not be read by everyone.
  • I think that, in this context, "persuaded" or "encouraged" would be preferable to "enticed".
  • The phrase "achieved little" occurs twice in the second paragraph.
Cambridge University
  • The first paragraph, which is pre-Cambridge, belongs to the previous section.
  • "University Match" and "University match" should be standardised
  • You need to explain what "awarded his Blue" means, e.g. "awarded his blue by being selected for the University match against Oxford at Lord's" – and amend the subsequent text accordingly.
  • "Questions were raised..."; this formulation always invites the question "by whom?"
  • On that issue, "Questions were raised at the time about the fairness of his bowling action, and there were suggestions in the press that he threw the ball" sounds as though his suspected throwing was additional to the questions of fairness, whereas I imagine that the supposed chucking was the unfairness.
Middlesex
  • As rustication is a temporary exclusion, rather than "having left Cambridge" you neeed to say; "having decided aginst returning to Cambridge" or similar
  • Third paragraph second sentence: final words "in the match" are redundant
  • "Assistant general manager" – decapitalise the A
  • "Allen was allowed a leave" → "Allen was allowed leave..."
Test match debut
  • You mention Allom and Stevens as rivals who were "more successful" – I'd alter that to "also successful", since 4 for 28 is hardly failure. On the other hand, since neither Allom nor Stevens was selected for the first Test, I wonder why they are specifically mentioned here.
  • Removed them, as it was just following Swanton here. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would mention that England won the first Test, at Nottingham, and also that the second Test was at Lord's.
  • Minor quibble: the Australian score was 729 for 6
  • Just trying to avoid linking declared! Done now. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "spent the English winter playing squash" – possibly an overstatement (he might have done a few other things). Was this the British Amateur Squash Championship?
  • Swanton doesn't really say, and knowing him, it could have been any old organisation! I'd toyed with cutting this, and having looked again, I've simply removed mention of this as it's hardly important. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bodyline series
  • Perhaps explanatory note 7 should be placed earlier, when you first mention the MCC team to tour Australia in the previous section.
  • Bradman a coward of fast bowling? Doesn't parse well. Perhaps "a terrible little coward when facing fast bowling"?
  • Actually, I had the quotation marks in the wrong place, and "a terrible little coward of fast bowling" are Allen's actual words to "Darling Dads". Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...he was involved in subsequent legislation to ban it after the 1934 season". What was the nature of his involvement?
  • Added a flavour, but Swanton gives quite chapter and verse about St Gubby's crusade... Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Change of career
  • "Subsequently, he played little cricket in 1933" – I think you mean "Consequently..."
  • "unavailable ... unavailable" in quick succession
  • Try to find a way of mentioning Wyatt as England's captain in 1934, otherwise his mention at the beginning of the following section lacks context.
Selection as captain
  • "When selected to lead one of the teams in a Test trial match, his leadership was effective enough..." A bit cumbersome: suggest "...he was effective enough..." etc
  • "Allen threatened to resign were [Voce] to be included" – I think, in view of what followed: "Allen at first threatened to resign..." etc
Tour of Australia, 1936–37
  • I have heard the "it's probably cost us the rubber" story before, but I always thought it was in relation to the third, rather than the second Test. That is what the WP article on Robins says, though with no citation. The story makes a lot more sense in the context of the pivotal third Test, rather than in the second at a point when England were well ahead in the match and the series. Can you investigate further? This may be a case where, not for the first time, Swanton has got it wrong.
  • OK, this one threw me a bit. I have no "heavy-hitting" books on the 1936-37 series, and found several "quote" and "funny story" books which place this in the third Test. But Wisden does not mention a drop in either the second or third Test (when it might have been more likely to have done so in the crucial third Test); the Times daily reports do not mention Robins dropping Bradman in the third Test, but record Robins dropping Bradman off Allen in the second Test. So in this case, I think I believe Swanton; I don't think Allen (who probably told the story for the book) would get this wrong as it would be a much better story if it were in the third Test, when it would have cost the series. I suppose it's to his credit that he didn't try to tell the story differently, when it would have reflected better on his bowling/judgement/whatever. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:58, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Australia chose Laurie Nash, a fast bowler, who had returned to first-class cricket after a three-year absence to play for Victoria against the MCC, for the game." Sentence needs reconstructing: "For the game, Australia chose a fast bowler, Laurie Nash, who had returned to first-class cricket after a three-year absence to play for Victoria against the MCC".
  • "extremely closely" – just "closely" will do. Or, simply, "The series was watched by..."
  • "...to fraternise with Australia" – "presumably, "to fraternise with the Australian team".
War service
  • "By June 1940..." → "In June 1940..."
  • "demobbed" is military slang. "Demobilised" is the formal term, but "left the army" would be simpler.
Final years
  • This section deals with Allen's final playing years, not his last years on earth. Title should reflect this. You use the same title later on, to describe Gubby's dotage.
  • I'm not too sure of the relevance of Griffith's century to this article
  • Allen selected him out of position, and he was very successful. So it's sort-of Allen's success as well. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a point of chronology, Hutton was sent for when the series was well under way – he flew out for the third Test
After the Second World War
  • "he served on the MCC Committee again" → "he rejoined the MCC Committee"?
  • As an ordinary MCC committee member I doubt that Allen could "secure" honorary memberships for retired professionals. I'd say "support" rather than "secure"
  • I think it was his idea, and he saw it through. But I'll double check outside of Swanton for confirmation. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Tim Quelch states that the scheme, and other similar initiatives at the time, achieved little owing to the limited resources available and because the boys coached in this way had little actual opportunity to play cricket". It's not entirely clear what "the scheme" or "in this way", are vreferring to. Some clarification advised.
Test selector
  • "The workload of the post brought his playing days to an end" – plus, I suppose, the fact that he was 52 years old by then!
  • According to Swanton (and therefore the man himself) he would have carried on. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not really right to say that May "emerged" during Allen's chairmanship. He first played for England in 1951, and was a well-established Test player before Gubby came on the selectoral scene. Ted Dexter might be a better example.
  • Being pedantic, May served until January 1960 (he missed two matches in 1959), before briefly resuming in 1961.
  • The result of the 1956 series was 2–1, not 3–1
  • "Washbrook was ultimately successful" – why not "Washbrook scored 98"?
  • I don't like the use of "extremely" for emphasis, even in the case of Laker in 1956. How about: "which led to Laker's extraordinary success in the series"?
Influence behind the scenes
  • "term of office" should not be hyphenated
  • On his appointment as MCC treasurer it might be worth explaining that this was a more influential office than it sounds, with a wider range of responsibilities than looking after the money.
  • "The newly formed Sports Council required that cricket be more democratically organised, and not just run by a private members club, to receive financial support from the government". Sugest flip this: "The newly formed Sports Council required that, to receive financial support from the government, cricket be more democratically organised and not run by a private members' club" (note members' punctuation)
  • Many readers won't necessarily know that "Billy Griffiths" is the same "S.C. Griffith" who scored a century on Test debut in 1948
  • "comfortably affluent" = tautology
The D'Oliveira Affair
  • I think the MOS requires you delete "The" in the heading
  • Probably you should explain in opening sentences that D'Oliveira was of mixed race. "On the grounds of his colour" seems a bit pussyfooting.
  • Kept "on the grounds of his colour" as some readers may not know why they wanted him out, but added mixed race. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cobham communicated this information to an MCC Committee member by private letter. Only Allen, Griffith and the then-President Arthur Gilligan were aware of the letter..." – and, presumably, the committee member to whom it was sent?
  • "enormous anger and controversy" – "enormous", like "extremely", best avoided; "widespread anger..." etc? Note: "enormous" is repeated a couple of lines further down.
  • Ah, I see you are using "widespread" in the final paragraph. The first "enormous" could be "considerable" and the second, "heavy"
Final years
  • Per earlier note, probably this heading is appropriate here
  • "In 1962, he was appointed a CBE and knighted in 1986": tidier if "He was appointed a CBE in 1962 and knighted in 1986"

That's it; another well-researched article packed with detail, and probably more even-handed than the subject deserves. I will watch its progress at FAC with confident interest. Brianboulton (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments and help, and I think I got everything. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from Cliftonian[edit]

I don't know so much about Gubby so I will start with the body and come back to the lead at the end. I have been trialling this method and am feeling quite happy with it. Hope you don't mind.

Early life

  • Shouldn't we give the exact date he was born here and wikilink Sydney? (also, the infobox says Bellevue Hill, New South Wales; I'd recommend making this consistent in the infobox and body).
  • If Pearl was a nickname, shouldn't it be in quotation marks? (or was it a middle name?)
  • This is how I usually do it, and how the ODNB does it, so I don't think it really matters. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd recommend changing the semicolon before "later rumours" to a full stop, and starting a new sentence
  • "Both of his parents"; recommend changing "his" to "Allen's" to make this clearer
  • "Both of his parents had roots in England as well as Australia, and in 1909..." This is a very long sentence. I'd suggest splitting it up a bit (also note the repetition of "initially" and "England"). Here's a suggestion:
  • "Both of Allen's parents had ancestral links in England as as well as Australia, and in 1909 they moved the family to London with the hope that Allen, then six years old, and the other children might benefit from an English education. They lived at first in a flat in the English capital, but subsequently moved between various country villages. Finding that they enjoyed England, the family abandoned plans to return to Australia."
  • Went for a combination of your wording and mine. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His ability attracted the attention of Eton College; a friend of his father, Cyril Wells, was the cricket coach there, and he encouraged Allen senior to send his son to the school..." This passage is a little bit choppy, I have suggested an alternative below. We say he "went" to Eton in the winter of 1915–16; this could be taken to mean this is the only time he was there, but what we mean is he started going there in the winter of 1915–16. I have integrated this into my suggested wording below:
  • "His ability attracted the attention of Eton College, where a friend of Allen's father, Cyril Wells, was the cricket coach. The family had planned to send Allen to Haileybury, but Wells persuaded Allen senior to send his son to Eton instead, against Allen's own wishes. He started at Eton in the winter of 1915–16."
  • Done this. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would recommend consolidating some of the references in this section; a lot of places they are only a page or two a part and we have multiple references within a sentence or two where we could just have one
  • OK, done some, and I'll keep an eye on this. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by 1918 he was captain" perhaps make clearer we mean captain of his house and not of the school team. Do we know what house he was in?
  • Did this, but not sure what house he's in. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • perhaps say Lord's is in London (the uninitiated may not know)
  • "newly appointed Eton coach" perhaps just "new Eton coach"
  • topping the bowling averages of the Eton team, or of the division they played in?
  • Clarified. Eton weren't common enough to play in a division! League cricket was for the common people up north. Down south, it was played for the love of the game!!! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the best schoolboys" given the era we are talking about these would be the best public schoolboys, right? (Eton, Winchester, Westminster, Charterhouse, etc?)
  • "encouraged his selection by the club, despite the potential risks to the team's position." what risks? because Warner might be accused of favouritism, or because Allen did not consider himself experienced enough to play first-class cricket?

First-class cricketer

  • "country house cricket" what is this?
  • We haven't wikilinked the Country Championship... neither have we linked Yorkshire CCC, I am astounded to note! (cue note from Tim saying Yorkshire is not worth linking to)
  • "568 runs at 21.84" perhaps clarify to "a total of 568 runs at an average of 21.84"?
  • perhaps wikilink England cricket team the first time we mention it ("for the England team against Australia that summer")
  • "an MCC team of moderate ability" according to whom?
  • "He declined an invitation to tour South Africa with an MCC team" do we know why? perhaps because of work?
  • why not wiklink Lyon?
  • in the passage about the business in France, we use the word "business" several times. Suggest less repetition
  • Why not say Debenham's is a department store? (foreigners may not know)
  • I'd rather not say this here, as I'm not sure if he worked in one store, or for the company itself. And I think the link should be enough there. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:19, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "each year since 1926" not "every year since 1926"?
  • Done, but not sure it makes much difference. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:19, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was praised in the press" perhaps "most of the press"; it seems kind of odd to say the press praised him, then give only two examples of reporters that didn't
  • I don't think the two reporters were really having a go, merely pointing out the limitations of his performance. Changed the "but" to "although" to make it less harsh. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:19, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Test match career; will continue —Cliftonian (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Test match career

  • Since we discuss Jardine and his relationship with Allen at some length in the first paragraph, perhaps point out he is seated in the centre of the front row in the photograph (perhaps also point out Allen's benefactor and supposed father, Pelham Warner, at the far left. I must say in this photograph at least there does seem to be a resemblance)
  • How does Frith explain Allen's inconsistency regarding his relationship with Jardine? Why was he terrified of him?
  • He doesn't, and to be honest does something of a hatchet job on Allen in this book, making him look very bad. This is just one example where he looks slightly nuts. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His attitude made him popular with spectators" perhaps clarify to "His attitude made him popular with the Australian spectators"? (I can't imagine there were many from England, but this isn't totally clear)
  • Perhaps mention earlier that this was the first time he had been to Australia since he left at the age of 6? I imagine that for Allen it would have been quite an emotional occasion. I would place it further up, before "Jardine did not initially plan to include Allen in the Test team":
"The Bodyline tour was the Allen's first visit to Australia since the age of six. Jardine did not ..."
  • Not sure it works here. I put it deliberately with the family part to avoid the feeling in the biography about how great Gubby was and how special he was and how lovely his family were and ... Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • and trim the first sentence of the "Change of career" section accordingly.
  • was Norah Grace's family American or British? (or something else? just feel this might add some flavour)
  • wikilink the London Stock Exchange in the body

England captain

  • "Allen was treated sympathetically by press and public," comma here should be full stop
  • "encouraged his team to fraternise with the Australian team" perhaps "encouraged his playerss to fraternise ..." to reduce repetition. you could also trim "and he" to just "and"
  • "However, he clashed over tactics with one of his team, Joe Hardstaff; the pair never subsequently got along" perhaps "never got along thereafter"?

Down to later career, will be back —Cliftonian (talk) 16:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this so far! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Later career

  • "commissioned in the Territorial Army" shouldn't this be commissioned into the Territorial Army?
  • Arthur Harris! A self-identified Rhodesian, not many people seem to know. (no action)
  • "Allen left the army in July 1945" perhaps just "He left", because there's no ambiguity here about who we are talking about
  • There might be, as we are talking about his cricket just before. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps explain briefly that the Free Foresters are a wandering amateur club (the name sounds almost like it could be a yeomanry regiment or something)

Cricketing technique

  • "As a batsman, Allen's was technically sound" typo here; think we mean "Allen was technically sound"

Administrative career

  • "deliberately restricted the career of Les Jackson for reasons of class" perhaps clarify to "the working-class Les Jackson" or something like that to make this clearer
  • Not sure it's unclear, and I'd like to avoid class ... class, unless anyone has any good ideas. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When he was later added to the team when another player was injured" we repeat "when ... when"; suggest redrawing
  • "Vorster protested" he did more than that, I think—he outright said that the England team would not be welcome.
  • "the government eventually asked the Council to cancel the tour." perhaps make clear it did, and also perhaps reword as if I recall correctly the government didn't just ask but actually put very heavy pressure on the cricketing authorities to cancel it.
  • "In 1968, Allen moved to a flat directly behind the Pavilion at Lord's,[250] where he lived until his death." suggest reword to "He moved to a flat directly behind the Pavilion at Lord's in 1968, and lived there until his death."
  • I'd prefer to leave it to avoid too many sentences beginning with "He" or "Allen". Sarastro1 (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Very good overall in my opinion. I very much look forward to seeing this at FAC and hope these comments help. I'm sorry about the delay in finishing up. Cheers, have a great weekend! —Cliftonian (talk) 20:32, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from Crisco[edit]

  • where the home team won 3–2, having lost the first two matches - is "having lost ..." necessary for the lede?
  • In this case yes; it was a famous loss from 2-0 up with 3 to play, and is very rare in Test cricket. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • He died in 1989. - this doesn't really build on the first sentence (the life span)
  • was briefly in Australia at roughly the right period. - meaning Warner was in the UK... how could he have become a fan of Pearl?
  • It's all a little vague. I get the impression that she was quite popular with eligible men, but there's little we can say for definite. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • He began to play cricket seriously - when did he take up the sport non-seriously?
  • Basically from the time he could stand! I think in common with most at the time, he played in the back garden but not for a team as such until he went to school. Not sure it is worth a mention, but I could ref it if I had to. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allen went to Eton in the winter of 1915–16. - perhaps "beginning in the winter" ... that being said, per WP:SEASONS we shouldn't use winter.
  • I think it is marginally better as it is. As far as the WP:SEASONS thing goes, it is very difficult to avoid this in cricket writing; the easiest way is to refer to the cricket season, and summer and winter is the convention. I think there is enough wiggle room in the guideline to justify this, and I personally think their recommended styling is horribly clunky. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Worth noting that Warner was Middlesex captain? At least, according to his article.
  • Not by 1921; it mentions his captaincy in the note about who Allen's father may have been, when he was the captain, but not here. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • in which he appeared for the amateur "Gentlemen" - but he was not of the nobility, no? He certainly wasn't financially stable enough to qualify as an amateur, from my reading of this article... or were they somewhat loose with the classification? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:06, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, it was all very peculiar. The Gentlemen were not "gentlemen" in terms of nobility, it was just an archaic (even then) way to describe amateurs; the link to Gentlemen v Players should cover that. In terms of Allen being an amateur, he was one of the few to actually qualify as one in cricket. That was why he didn't play as much as other amateurs: he couldn't afford to, and he made literally no money from cricket. (But some amateurs were affectively paid to play, but it was all hushed up. It was basically about your social status. It was a mess, and this is one of the things I love writing about!) Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Debenham's - Article is at Debenhams, why the apostrophe?
  • At the time, they had an apostrophe, but not any more. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a potential list; it has happened quite a lot but is relatively rare. But lists aren't my thing... Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did the link, but not sure he is worth his own article. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Larwood seems to have had about as much luck with injuries as Allen...
  • Worse. If you have time, read Larwood's article (it's one of Brian's); Allen was a hypochondriac, Larwood was insanely unlucky. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although still unable to appear regularly, Allen played 16 matches, - since you are shifting from test to county, perhaps note that this is for Middlesex?
  • They wouldn't just be county or Middlesex games, but added a note saying first-class. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch for overuse of "Declared" in the second Australian tour
  • Unless I'm missing something, it only comes up twice in that section, and there isn't really a way to rephrase it. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In #Technique, watch for mixed tenses (past and present, like "described / describes") — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:25, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would the opening paragraph of #Administrative career work better as part of the "Death" section?
  • I quite like it as an introduction to that section, and want to avoid another "technique/impact" section at the end of his off-field career. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • the MCC Coaching book - two questions: why the capital "C", and is this likely notable enough for an article?
  • Idiocy and unlikely, in that order! Fixed. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I'll ever understand the British class system... "Many professional cricketers thought that Allen was a snob who preferred to keep them in their place; critics believed that he deliberately restricted the career of Les Jackson for reasons of class." and yet he was still working (although admittedly in a senior position) and of common descent... just the wealth? *sigh*
  • Oh, money has nothing to do with it old boy; it's all about breeding... Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • to keep him in his place. - Trueman's class, or...?
  • Not quite sure what you mean here, but this is as far as the source goes. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • no-balled - link?
  • Any way to avoid repeating "1968"?
  • a National Cricket Association - if it's "a", why the capitals?
  • investments in Australia - don't think you've mentioned these yet, yet you include them as if the reader already knows.
  • According to Peter Oborne, in his biography of D'Oliveira, Allen and the MCC secretary Billy Griffith, - is it a biography of all three? I think that closing comma needs to go, or even use "in his biography of D'Oliveira, Peter Oborne writes that..."
  • Capitalisation: you have both MCC Committee and MCC committee
  • a statesman and former Prime Minister, - I think PM is non-definite here, since the "a" applies to it as well.
  • Not really, he was a former Prime Minister. I'm pretty sure that's OK. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley[edit]

First batch, just putting a marker down till I have time to wade in properly:

  • Lead
    • "who held key positions in the Marylebone Cricket Club, which effectively ruled English cricket at the time, and became chairman of the England selectors" – this goes off the rails a bit: if read literally it says that the MCC became chairman. I think the addition of "he" before "became" would do the trick, perhaps replacing the "and" with a semicolon.
    • "Upon leaving university" – sorry to ride my hobby horse about quaint words yet again, but in general (not invariably, but here) I think "on" better than "upon", just as I prefer "while" to "whilst", "amid" to "amidst" and so on
    • "with the captain Peter May" – "with the Test captain Peter May"?
    • "In 1963 he became MCC President, and was made the club's treasurer" – capitalise both titles or neither, I'd say.
  • Went for both, but someone may well shoot me down over it! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life
    • There was evidently a bit of money around in the Allen household if he was sent to Eton. Did his father successfully practise law in England? It seems surprising that he could earn large sums straight away as a new boy to English legal practice.
      • Gubby says that it was a bit of a financial stretch, but is not too specific. Allen senior joined the Met (the police, rather than the Opera!) during the war, but again financial details from Swanton's careful book are scarce. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "where a friend of Allen's father, Cyril Wells, was the cricket coach" – I tremble at challenging you on cricket technicalities, but I rather doubt this. Wouldn't the Eton cricket coach have been a retired professional, like (later) George Hirst? Whereas C. M. Wells was a very grand classics master who succeeded Mike Mitchell as Eton's top cricket man. Incidentally, as far as I can see, Wells was always "C.M." not "Cyril" even to his friends. See the Lyttelton/Hart-Davis Letters, passim. From which, for your delectation: "On Tuesday C.M. Wells's dinner, his ninetieth birthday. He hasn't changed in the last twenty years. His forty-to-fifty-year-old pupils have—bald, fat, dewlapped, limping etc. G.O. Allen was there. He had just seen Statham who told him that Hall, 6 ft 5, was much the fastest bowler he or anyone else had ever seen; not even Cowdrey really enjoyed facing him. C.M.W. of course repeated W.G.'s saying about fast bowling, viz that the faster it was the better he liked it. I gathered that G.O.A. regarded himself as of much the same pace as Larwood etc. But D.R. Jardine told me L. was a good deal quicker."
      • You are right, I've been a bit loose with the source here. He was a housemaster according to Swanton, but seems to have been the master-i-c of cricket as well. Went for the former as simpler to link, and also changed him to C. M. Incidentally, I have a far higher opinion of Jardine than Allen, for all the former's faults. Not too sure what that says about me. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "the annual matches at Lord's in which the best public schoolboys opposed each other" – this sounds like some Lord of the Flies free-for-all. There were presumably two representative sides?
      • To be honest, Lord of the Flies may be quite an accurate description, but clarified anyway. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More soonest. In haste… – Tim riley talk 17:32, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Much obliged! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To the end of Cricketing technique
  • Middlesex
    • "although the Guardian correspondent suggested that a weak batting performance flattered him" – two things arise from this. First, it was The Manchester Guardian until 1959. Secondly, I have its cricket report dated 17 June 1929 in front of me and I don't think it even hints that poor batting "flattered" Allen's performance, and indeed the report is headlined "Allen's great feat". I can send you the report if you'd like it. What's more when, the following month, Tich Freeman of Kent also took all ten Lancashire wickets in an innings, the MG (25 July) commented that it had cost him 131 runs to get them, as compared with Allen's mere 40.
      • I think I'm being a bit harsh on Allen here. The source I'm using takes the line "it has to be confessed that much of the batting was poor", and I think I've read too much into it. I've toned it down to "helped by a weak batting performance", but maybe that is too much. I'll ponder, and may remove this altogether. Changed to Manchester as well. I get the Grauniad archives through my library, so I checked out the original report. (Where was Cardus, I ask myself?) Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Debut
    • "not particularly well-received by the press" – hyphens! I think – but may very well be mistaken – that you don't wan't a hyphen here. By the bye, I think you may enjoy the MG's comment (27 June 1930) on Allen's inclusion: "The choice of G. O. Allen will have astonished North of England people, who may well ask what claims Allen possesses to a place in the England eleven, excepting that he plays for Middlesex, which, of course, is a qualification in itself. True, Allen once took the whole of the ten wickets in a Lancashire innings. But London is not in the habit of regarding Lancashire cricket as a test of anything, save patience. Allen bowls fast-medium stuff, rather tearaway. If he takes the whole of the ten Australian wickets to-day he will still be a bowler far, far away from international class."
      • I'll believe you on the hyphen. Incidentally, that was the view of most people of Allen, especially early in his career. Only Swanton worshipped him. Cardus (who that quote looks to be from!) was quite dismissive of him in the 1930 series. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've strayed down too many byways to get much done this time. More a.s.a.p. Tim riley talk 09:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Last lot from Tim
  • Influence behind the scenes
    • "When the MCC abolished amateur status in cricket in 1962" – Technically it was 1963: on 26 November 1962 the 17 first-class counties voted to abolish the distinction, but their vote was not valid until ratified by the MCC committee, which the committee duly did, nem con, on 31 January 1963. Citations from The Times for 1962 and 1963 available if wanted. (This pedantic detail has stood me in good stead: I scored a boundary with it off Brian B's bowling during the FAC for Alec Home the year before last.)
      • Found a ref (probably the same as yours!) and changed the date. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • D'Oliveira affair
    • "The Shadow Foreign Secretary and MCC member Sir Alec Douglas-Home" – not merely a member: he had been President in 1966. (Tangentially, now I read your article I think I may need to tweak Home's because I think I imply there that he was still President when he met Vorster. I'm glad of that prompt.)
    • "enemies of the MCC and the Establishment" – you've used "establishment" twice, earlier, both times without the capital. I think it probably works better capitalised, but either way it would be best to be consistent about it.
  • Categories
    • I prefer the categories to be in alphabetical order, though I admit I there is a perfectly good argument for setting them out in order of importance instead. I just mention this and if you revisit and prefer the status quo I shall not quibble.
      • I make it a rule not to touch categories, and find them vaguely irritating; sorting them is also a pain as people just stick them on as they think of them! If anyone else wants to do it, feel free! Sarastro1 (talk) 19:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot. This is a fine article, and I can say hand on heart that I don't believe anybody would guess from reading it that you are no fan of its subject. If I might add one suggestion, the article ends rather abruptly, and would, I think, benefit from two or three valedictory quotes from obits or later assessments, which I'm sure are to be had from your sources, summing up his influence on the game, both for good and ill. Prod me when you get to FAC, please. – Tim riley talk 14:12, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. I'll ponder some closing comments, which do exist but are a little saccharine for my liking. Bradman gave him a nice tribute, and I may be able to get something from him, but it's all a bit generic. For some reason, Wisden felt the need to include a quote in Allen's obituary from Mike Gatting. (And after the rebel tour had been announced I believe, which is quite grating if you stop to think about it. But anyway...) Sarastro1 (talk) 19:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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