Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/1966 NBA Expansion Draft/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 08:02, 2 June 2010 [1].

1966 NBA Expansion Draft[edit]

1966 NBA Expansion Draft (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): —Chris!c/t 01:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC) & User:Martin tamb[reply]

I am nominating this on behalf of User:Martin tamb because I think it is ready. It will hopefully be a part of a future Chicago Bulls GT.—Chris!c/t 01:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, still no comment. My list is that boring that no one wants to read it. :)—Chris!c/t 18:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5
Comments from KV5

First! (I guess) KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "However, Kerr retired from playing prior to the start of the season.[3] Kerr was later named as the franchise's first head coach.[2]" - this could easily be combined into one sentence; However, Kerr retired from playing prior to the start of the season, and was later named as the franchise's first head coach.
  • "Another expansion draft pick, Al Bianchi" - comma after Bianchi
  • "went on to join the Bulls" - joined the Bulls is less wordy
  • "the first All-Stars from the franchise" - the franchise's first All-Stars is less wordy
  • "third All-Star from the franchise" - the franchise's third All-Star or the team's third All-Star to avoid repetition
  • "before became a coach" - should be before becoming
  • "He later coached"
  • "before fired" - before being fired
  • "He then became the head coach of the Utah Jazz in 1988, the position he has held since." - since most of the info here is about the Bulls, I don't know how relevant this is to the article. Maybe shorten it to something like He later became the coach of the Utah Jazz.
  • Three sentences in a row beginning with "He". Suggest changing one of those to Sloan (preferably the second sentence to avoid repetition).

No problems in the table. Well done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed everything. Get rid of the Jazz sentence. Thanks for reading this.—Chris!c/t 18:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments (KV5)
  • "18 unprotected players from the nine other NBA teams" - are 18 and nine comparable here? I'm not sure, but I think so.
  • "was later named as the franchise's"
  • "whom the Bulls acquired in exchange for Jim King and Jeff Mullins" - this phrase is parenthetical and might be better set off from the surrounding sentence by parentheses or the appropriate dash (spaced en or unspaced em).

Once these are completed, I can support without hesitation. — KV5 • Talk • 13:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done—Chris!c/t 19:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support — KV5 • Talk • 01:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Zagalejo
  • I know that the Chicago Bulls Encylopedia has some additional info about this draft. I own a copy, so when I get a chance, I'll add some stuff. One thing I remember is that Dick Klein (the Bulls' GM) planned to use Kerr and Bianchi as coaches before the draft even took place. (So, basically, they were drafted to be coaches; they were still under playing contracts, so they couldn't be signed outright.) I also remember that Klein worked out some deal with Red Auerbach in which Klein promised not to select a certain Celtics player (I forget which one) if Auerbach shared his evaluations of other players throughout the league. Zagalejo^^^ 19:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, thanks for helping.—Chris!c/t 19:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I added a little bit. Zagalejo^^^ 22:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we really need to mention here that Sloan was inducted into the HOF as a coach? He was primarily inducted because of his work with the Jazz. Also, I don't think we should mention Thompson at all, since none of his accomplishments have anything to do with the Bulls. Zagalejo^^^ 19:37, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those excessive detail can be cut down. But some should remain because readers probably would like to know what happen to the players after being drafted.—Chris!c/t 19:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if we're going to say that Sloan is in the HOF, then I think it would be better to restore something about the Jazz, for the sake of clarity. Zagalejo^^^ 20:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done—Chris!c/t 19:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 19:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • I'm mildly confused by "The draft was held on April 30, 1966 before the 1966–67 season, as the league expanded to ten franchises" this could read that the draft was held...as the league expanded.
  • " The Bulls were founded after the city of Chicago, Illinois was granted an NBA franchise on January 16, 1966" not correct grammar here.
  • I think us non-experts need an explanation as to what an "expansion draft" really is. Was the draft held because the Bulls became an NBA franchise? That doesn't seem to be explicitly stated anywhere.
  • The Bulls were a new team, and they didn't have any players, so the expansion draft allowed them to take some players from other teams. Not all players were available in the expansion draft; the other teams were allowed to protect certain players from being drafted. Zagalejo^^^ 18:56, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried to clarify things. When I was rewording things, I also changed the other sentences you mentioned above. Zagalejo^^^ 19:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "played ten seasons with the Bulls before becoming a coach. He coached the Bulls for three seasons before being fired during the 1981–82 season" Bulls.. Bulls... coach, coached... a little turgid prose-wise.
  • What's NCAA (i.e. expand before abbreviate)?
  • pro->professional.
  • "Career with the franchise" doesn't sort correctly under Safari (Mac OS X)
  • Ref 10 has no accessdate.

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed most of them. Can you explain how the Career with the franchise column is sorting incorrectly? I don't use Safari and can't see what's wrong.—Chris!c/t 20:01, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Difficult. First click, all good and the dashes after all the real years. Second click, no change. Third click, Bowman & Chappell sort at the bottom, then all the dashes, then Kojis->Sloan, fourth click all the dashes at the top, then Sloan first, down all the way to Chappell to end. Not helpful really is it? All I can suggest is a quick review of Help talk:Sorting. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added sort key. Did it resolve the issue?—Chris!c/t 19:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – I only have a few issues, but they are significant. Not everything in the table is cited at the moment, and there are a couple of inaccuracies/omissions.
  • Hate to bring this up this late in an FLC, but what is sourcing the Position, Years professional, and Career with the franchise columns in the table? I see nothing in the general references that covers this data.
  • I'm sure it's all available somewhere on basketball-reference, so this doesn't seem like an insurmountable issue. But I do have an observation of my own about that section: "Years professional" should be changed to "Years of NBA experience", or something like that, because some of these players may have participated in the ABL, or Eastern League. (Unless it can be proved that none of them did.)
  • The positions, years and career were all taken from basketball-reference.com, they are all just one click away from the third general reference. I did not cite each player because the previous similar list that I nominate for FLC was passed without any concern that each item need to be cited (see 1984 NBA Draft, where positions also indirectly cited from the second general reference). But if each item need to be cited here, I'll add the proper reference. — Martin tamb (talk) 04:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Add the refs so that everything including the notes are cited.—Chris!c/t 19:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In a related issue, the notes also aren't cited by anything.
See above—Chris!c/t 19:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did some quick research on the draft on Google News and came up with this story, which has some important details that are currently missing or not accurate in the lead. It says that the draft was held over two days, not one as the article says, with one day each devoted to picks from Eastern and Western Division teams. The page also says that the Bulls were to select two players per team, and gives figures on how many players were eligible to have been chosen by Chicago. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found a couple of Chicago Tribune articles that confirm the two-day timeline, if someone wants to use them as refs:
  • "Bowman, Sloan among 1st players on new Bulls" Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: May 1, 1966. p. C1
  • "Bulls pick 8 to complete player draft; Boozer and Kojis are on the list" Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: May 2, 1966. p. C6 Zagalejo^^^ 01:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Zagalejo made some changes. I think this is fixed.—Chris!c/t 00:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Couple more comments after the changes:

  • Back in 1966, the conferences were official called divisions. Therefore, the mentions of the Eastern and Western Conferences in the third paragraph should be switched to Divisions.
  • No need for plural in the Refs heading, since there is only one reference for each row. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done all! — Martin tamb (talk) 18:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Good list, but there's one thing I'd like to see. For Sloan, I'd like to see a highlight/key either for being in the Hall of Fame as a coach, or for having his jersey retired by the Bulls (or both). Do that and I'll support it. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 20:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done—Chris!c/t 23:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really agree with the colorings because this isn't a normal draft articles. The colorings could have ambiguous meanings, for example: whether the players has been selected to the All-Star Game before he was drafted by the Bulls or after his whole playing career ended. Non-expansion draft articles wouldn't have this problem because the draftees were never been in the league before being drafted, while in an expansion draft, the draftees are usually already in the league. Also a coloring for Hall of Famer coaches is never being used in any draft articles because it's irrelevant for a list of players drafted. Hall of Famer coaches are usually mentioned in a short paragraph on the lead. Furthermore, the information about the Hall of Famers and the All-Stars was already included in the lead. It even mentions which player was already an All-Star when he was drafted and which player became an All-Star after their Bulls drafted them. I would like another opinion from the others on this issues. — Martin tamb (talk) 20:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds reasonable to me. I didn't think about this when I added the color.—Chris!c/t 23:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not crazy about the colors. They're misleading; I think Boozer is the only one who actually earned his "color-worthy accomplishment" as a Bull. Zagalejo^^^ 05:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Color removed.—Chris!c/t 18:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco

Comments

  • "The Bulls were the third NBA franchise to play in Chicago, after the Chicago Stags, which folded in 1950, and the Chicago Packers–Zephyrs, which moved to Baltimore and became the Baltimore Bullets in 1963." A)It would read better IMO if after was changed to following since it currently reads like the sentence would go into something where you're saying 'after the Chicago stags did something'. B)Unlink Baltimore.
  • "In an NBA expansion draft, new NBA teams can acquire players from the previously established teams in the league. " -- can or are allowed?
  • "Dick Klein had been planning to use Kerr and Bianchi as coaches before the draft even took place, but because they were still under playing contracts with other teams, Klein needed to draft them instead of hiring them outright." - no need to state his first name again.
  • "Guy Rodgers—whom the Bulls acquired in exchange for Jim King and Jeff Mullins—and Jerry Sloan were named to the 1967 All-Star Game, becoming the franchise's first All-Stars" - you should probably link the final All-Stars word of the sentence to like a main article, if there is one.
If you mean that the NBA All-Star Game should be linked, it's already linked in "..three-time All-Star Johnny Kerr..". — Martin tamb (talk) 20:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Boozer became the team's third All-Star when he was named to the 1968 All-Star Game.[10]" - is this necessary? This article is about 66-67, so why state 68? Unless he still holds that title of being the last All Star, which I doubt.
I put Boozer's achievement there to show that he is one of the most successful expansion draftees for the Bulls, compared to the others. I also didn't think the term "third" would imply the last All-Star. But if you insist, I can remove this sentence. — Martin tamb (talk) 20:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason I brought it up is because I feel that the year 68 has nothing to do with this draft even if he came from the expansion team. Wouldn't the following season be like a whole new type of roster environment? --Truco 503 01:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds reasonable, never thought that, so the sentence removed. Thanks for the review! — Martin tamb (talk) 07:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Avoid repetition: "as has fellow draftee John Thompson. Thompson never worked for the Bulls in any capacity, but found success as a coach at Georgetown University"--Truco 503 20:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All others fixed. — Martin tamb (talk) 20:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- All issues resolved; meets WP:WIAFL. Good work!--Truco 503 23:14, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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