Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joehana/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 17:16, 3 September 2015 [1].

Joehana[edit]

Nominator(s):  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:47, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Sundanese author of whom little is recorded, but whose works had an important influence on the early cinema of the Dutch East Indies, and whose jokes are even today used in Bandung. This is easily the best English-language source available on the author.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:47, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JM

How interesting! Happy to take a look through.

  • "Although little is known of his life, it is clear that he worked for a time at the railroad before becoming an author by 1923" This doesn't quite work for me.
  • "and marketed mainly in the Bandung area, they were popular." I'm not sure what the marketing has to do with the popularity- do you mean they were marketed mainly in that area, but had popularity beyond it?
  • It's not immediately clear to me in what sense you mean to call wayang a literary form.
  • You should probably avoid "recent" in the lead. How about something like "but critical consensus in the 2000s [or whatever] has been negative"?
  • "Meer Uitgebreid Lager Onderwijs" The article doesn't capitalise like that
  • Are either of the unions worth redlinking?
  • What is "escape literature"? Do you mean escapist?
  • This is just stylistic, and your method is perfectly acceptable, but perhaps you could consider "introducing" your theorists a little? So rather than "Smith argued", go for something like "Literary theorist John Smith argued". (I see you do introduce Rosidi, but not at first mention.)
  • "These publications, particularly his novels, were generally inspired by what types of works were popular at the time." How about "These publications, particularly his novels, were generally inspired by the types of works that were popular at the time of writing." Also, does your source say this explicitly?
    • Done. Source says "Yuhana menulis atas dasar pesanan dan mengikuti 'musim' selera pembaca." ("Yuhana wrote on order and followed the 'seasons' of readers' tastes". — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nangis Wibisana" Translation of the title for consistency? Also "Goenoeng Gelenjoe". Or would you prefer to leave the translations of his titles out of the prose?
  • "Joehana died after helping put together a stage performance based on his novel, Kalepatan Putra Dosana Ibu Rama, in Tasikmalaya." Given that there are several novels that could be referred to, the novel's name doesn't work as a dependent clause. This should be changed to something like "...based on one of his novels", or else the commas (or at least the first) should be removed.
  • Is Soerapati worth linking?
    • Haven't found much detail on the newspaper. There were dozens of short-lived publications in the Indies at this time, and very few seem to have been documented in enough detail to warrant an article. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Not all are extant" Is this what your source says? It seems a strong claim; "It is possible that not all are extant" might be safer?
  • "Although other works, such as Eulis Tjinio, have been attributed to him, they are not included here owing to a lack of verification." I don't think this is really something to be sourced to the 1979 study- it's a self-reference. An endnote might be more appropriate. A translation of the title of Eulis Tjinio would also be nice.
    • Eulis Tjinio (or Eulis Cinio in the modern spelling) is a name (like Eulis Atjih) and thus not translated. Footnote added. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do you not include title translations for all in the main list?
    • Bambang Hendrasaputra, Moegiri, and Roro Amis are all person's names and thus not translated. I can leave hidden text if necessary. I've added "Mrs. Raden Tedjainten" for the other one not given a translation here. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:57, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lamp would become de lamceh" Do you mean "de lampceh"?
    • As in source ("'Gampil!' ceuk Karnadi, 'Asal paséhat baé, sareng ti payunna nganggo "de", ti tungtungna nganggo "ceh". Sapartos lampu, Walandana 'de lamceh', bangku 'de bangceh'" ("'Easy!' Karnadi chortled, 'So long as it is logical, just add "de" in front of it and "ceh" at the end. Like lampu [lamp], the Dutch is "de lamceh", bangku [bench] is "de bangceh"'".). Rosidi names this joke specifically  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "menak (noblemen)" If this is your addition, would square brackets not be appropriate?
  • Is Sunda worth linking? Wangsit?

I've not looked into the sources or images, but it strikes me that you get the tone exactly right- a very nicely written article, and a great addition to WP. I've done some light copyediting; please double-check. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:43, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think I've addressed all of your comments. The copyedits look good! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support unless I've missed something or there are problems with the images/sources (which I certainly don't expect). The "railroad" sentence in the lead still doesn't quite work for me, but we'll see if anyone else objects to it. Three last comments: 1) "Atikah dates it to c. 1930" I obviously don't know precisely what your source says, but perhaps something like "Kartini et al. report that Atihah dated it to c. 1930". 2) On the subject, there's an inconsistency between the et al. of the prose and the et al. of the references. Consistency would be good. 3) I don't know if you're worried about category bloat, but I'm thinking about categories like Category:Indonesian journalists (and other subcategories of Category:Indonesian writers) and Category:Social critics. Josh Milburn (talk) 13:42, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1) The source says "Atikah, istrinya menyebutkan bahwa Yuhana meninggal pada lebih kurang tahun 1930" ("Atikah, his wife, says that Yuhana died in 1930 give or take"). Rather than repeat Kartini et al. in the text, I've added "Quoted in" to the reference.
  • 2) Apparently et al. should not be italicized. Fixed.
  • 3) Added.
  • Thanks again! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:42, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • If Dutch law does not apply to images from the Dutch East Indies, why are we including EU tags for these? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:07, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's not what the tag says. The tag says "extension of the copyright of works from the Dutch East Indies by the URAA would have considered Indonesian copyright law and not Dutch law", i.e. for purposes of calculating copyright renewal under the URAA, the Indonesian copyright law would have been considered and not Dutch law.
As the Dutch copyright may still apply to works first published in the Indies, I included the EU tag to make sure its 100% clear that the images are free in both countries which could conceivably claim jurisdiction. As to whether or not the Dutch would still enforce copyright from the Indies, that's a question I haven't the answer to. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 03:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:27, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from West Virginian
  • Support: Crisco 1492, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, the lede of this article adequately stands alone as a concise overview of Joehana's life. The lede defines Joehana's accomplishments, establishes context, explains why Joehana is notable, and summarizes the most important points of Joehana's biography. The article overall is comprehensive, well-researched, well-written, and uses verifiable sources that are cited within the prose with consistent citations. The personal pronoun of "he" could stand to be replaced with Bassah one or two more times in the first paragraph of the "Biography" section. I have no further comments, as the only minor issues were addressed by J Milburn earlier. There is no need to gild the lily. Thank you for all your hard work on this article, and for your continued contributions to Wikipedia. -- West Virginian (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Wehwalt
Very well done, just my usual list of quibbles.
  • " a lifelong interest in social welfare" This may come across to some more cynical readers as less than certain, since we do not know when he died.
  • "During the seven years in which he was active" possibly they could figure it out from the date of his first novel, but I think it would be best to tell the reader which years you are talking about.
  • Can you avoid the double "published" in the first sentence of the third paragraph?
Bio
  • "The scholar of Sundanese literature Ajip Rosidi," I'm dubious about the "The" (A?) possibly a comma before the name.
  • Just to chip in (I hope I'm not treading on any toes...)- a comma would be a bad addition, as the name is the subject of the clause, not a parenthetical clause. Removing "The" would give a false title (something I've only just learned about myself!) which is sometimes considered bad form. One way it could be changed would be to go for "Ajip Rosidi, a scholar of Sudanese literature,...". Josh Milburn (talk) 07:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Works
  • " the edition was not recorded." Maybe, "copies of that edition were not saved" or similar.
  • No, it means the edition / printing number is not recorded in the books themselves. So the same books were published under the same title at different dates, but there's nothing like "2nd Printing, 1927" etc. to differentiate between them. Changed to "the printing number was not recorded." — Chris Woodrich (talk) 08:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is that list of works fully sourced?
  • As stated in the text, "The following list is based on the one compiled by Kartini et al. in their 1979 study." The citation is {{sfn|Kartini|Hadish|Sumadipura|Iskandarwassid|1979|pp=12–16}} I can scan the pages in question and send them to you if you want (though the source is in Indonesian). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 08:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Style
  • "The names of areas in Joehana's novels coincide with those of actual locations in Bandung" maybe "Joehana used real-life Bandung locations in his novels" ...
  • "Some of these jokes have remained popular; Rosidi records one, about how to speak Dutch, as having survived into the 1980s." He does say that some have survived? The example you give of the 1980s is a little dated (it pains me to say that).
  • That's his most recent write-up on the issue. I could nix "have" if you think it necessary. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 08:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Themes
  • "then must make a living as commoners." I would strike "as commoners". You've adequately set forth the situation they face. I don't favor "commoner" in this context anyway, it's not like the two were royal.
  • "In this novel, Joehana calls for the poor to not be despised by the rich, but rather supported and defended." Perhaps "In the novel, Johanna calls on the rich to support and defend the poor, not despise them."
  • "those Muslims who have been on the hajj pilgrimage." I would say "those Muslims who have been on the pilgrimage to Mecca". with an appropriate pipe. "hajjis" and "haj" may force a click to those unfamiliar.
  • At least to my eyes, you seem inconsistent on whether to italicize names (groups, periodicals) that are in foreign languages.
  • Do you have any examples? The publisher Kiwari is not italicised, nor is Girimukti Pasaka. The social movement Sarekat Rakyat isn't italicised either. Names of books are italicised (Kesusastraan Sunda Dewasa Ini, Moegiri), as are the names of magazines (Sunda magazine; Sunda referring to the people/culture/language is not italicised). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 08:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sarekat Rakyat was the one, I see you are right.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:03, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They find that, at times, his attempt to convey a social message is so dominant that the works come across as didactic propaganda" I'd cut "didactic". The reader will get the idea.
Very interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The changes all look good as do the explanations. Very nice job. Support.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:03, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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