Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jo Stafford/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC) [1].

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Jo Stafford

Jo Stafford (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Jo Stafford/archive1

Nominator(s): Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

An article about a popular, but now much overlooked singer from the 1940s and 50s who played an important role in the musical history of the United States. I'm nominating it for featured article because I believe it's close to the standard expected of an FA. Much of the earlier work on this was completed by We hope, who hasn't been around for the past few months. I took the article through Peer Review at the end of last year, and submitted it for GA, which passed in February. Since then it's been through a comprehensive copyedit and a few other tweaks. The article has been generally stable throughout its ten year history, is broad in its coverage of the subject, and neutral. Enjoy. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Please note that because I edit with the use of assistive technology there may be some issues I will have difficulty addressing. Also to enable me to have quick access to any issues raised please be as specific as possible. See my disclaimer for further details. Thanks, Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comments on lead

"she was considered one of the most versatile vocalists of the era." As her career was 50 years, what era is that? This isn't explained in the main text or note either.

• Done. Changed it to say she originally trained as an opera singer before following a career in popular music.

Repetition in the final para: Weston as 2nd husband is in para 1 and their marriage is in para 3; her Grammy is in para 1.

"Corinthian Records, a label founded by her husband". Which husband?

• Done.

• Comments on Ref 7

"Stafford sang off-key in a high pitched voice and Weston played an untuned piano off-key". The source has "Weston played the wrong chords [...] Stafford sang a half-tone sharp". Doesn't that mean that only Stafford was off-key?

• Altered slightly to say he played in an unconventional rhythm, and added another source. A third is available if necessary. In their autobiography Weston describes Jonathan Edwards as "the most horrible cocktail pianist at anytime, anywhere...wrong chords, wrong rhythm, wrong melody, a totally ridiculous musical effort." Let me know if I should add this.

"including Stafford, John Huddleston—to whom Stafford". The dash seems to be in the wrong place... use "including Stafford—John Huddleston, to whom Stafford"? The source does not list those 7.

• Done. Sourced from her biography at University of Arizona.

"She had her best-known hits "Jambalaya", "Shrimp Boats", "Make Love to Me", and "You Belong to Me" around this time". I don't see all of these in the source either. I think you may have used the wrong link for some of these, as the one that you have looks like an edited version from the New York Times (July 19, 2008, "Jo Stafford, Wistful Voice of WWII Era, Dies at 90"). EddieHugh (talk) 22:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Done. I found a source from UPI.com that mentions them. There's also an earlier source from the Chicago Tribune that looks promising, but this requires subscription so I can't get to it.

Thanks for the feedback. I think everything has been addressed now, but let me know if there are any other problems and I'll take another look. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Crisco 1492

• Ah, a songstress. How I've longed to get one to FA... anyways, let me help here.

Addressed comments to talk

• Worth noting that she wrote some books? Easy lessons in singing with hints for vocalists

• Done

• Support as I seem to have forgotten to make this explicit. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments on clarity

""You Belong to Me" topped the charts in the United States and United Kingdom, and she became the first woman to reach number one on the UK Singles Chart." Can you make explicit the fact that YBTM was the song that made her first in the UK to reach number one?

• Done

""You Belong to Me" was Stafford's biggest hit, topping the charts in the United States and the United Kingdom, where it was the first song by a female singer to top the chart." Clarify that it was in the UK only (if this is the case).

• Done

"Stafford married twice; first in or around 1941 to musician John Huddleston (the couple divorced in 1943), then in 1952" Colon then semi-colons is normal: "Stafford married twice: first in or around 1941 to musician John Huddleston (the couple divorced in 1943); then in 1952".

• Done

"In 1961, the album, Jonathan and Darlene Edwards in Paris, won" remove commas after "album" and "Paris".

• Done

"Stafford's first public singing appearance was in Long Beach, [...] Her second was far more dramatic." Technically, she was preparing for her second; I suppose this doesn't really matter.

• Lead up is perhaps more accurate.
• I'll look into this

"joined her sisters Christine and Pauline in a popular vocal group". The lead has "older sisters".

• Done

"who performed on Los Angeles radio station KHJ. The group began their singing career on KNX". Add "frequently" or "regularly" to "performed" to contrast with the KNX sentence?

• Done

"The Stafford Sisters made their first recording with Louis Prima in 1936". That's in the original, but it should be "The Stafford Sisters made their first recording, with Louis Prima, in 1936" for clarity.

"sang and socialized while waiting to be called". "while waiting to be called" is a bit casual.

• Done

"When Alyce and Yvonne King threw a party". My search for "Yvonne King" in the source returned nothing. She's in the Daily Telegraph source, so maybe add that?

• Done

"the performance was off-color". "Off colour" can mean "unhealhy" in British English; is there a more precise term?

• Done

"The two men felt embarrassment when unexpectedly encountering the group because they were both still employed by Dorsey". Is this relevant?

• Done

"The Pied Pipers returned to Los Angeles". Add after how long? (6 months in Daily Telegraph.)

• Done

"through the early 1940s giving concerts". Add a comma after "1940s".

• Rewrote sentence

"toured extensively with Dorsey through the early 1940s". Is that compatible with leaving in 1942, as stated in the next sentence?

• Done

"new label, Capitol Records when". Add a comma after "Records".

• Done

"United Service Organizations (USO)". The section heading uses "s", not "z".

• Done

"Stafford's tenure with". When was this?

• Done

"Chesterfield Supper Club, Duets and Voice of America". "Duets" should have a lower case "d".

• Done

"continuing to host Chesterfield Supper Club from Hollywood. She had her own radio show, which was broadcast later on Tuesday nights, when she joined the Supper Club. In 1948, she restricted her Supper Club". Wasn't the show in the previous paragraph her own? Is Supper Club the same as Chesterfield Supper Club or The Chesterfield Supper Club? This needs some clarification.

• Done. Later show could be another Supper Club appearance, particularly taking into account the aircraft episode.

The sources aren't very clear, but it looks like "Supper Club" was used as an abbreviation of "The Chesterfield Supper Club" (dropping the sponsor's name). I suggest using the full form throughout, or only for the first mention, followed by "Supper Club", if you're satisfied that that is accurate. Cutting one or two mentions of it by name might help.

• Done

There's still one "Supper Club". Use "the show" / "the program" somewhere?

• Done

"Stafford duetted with Gordon MacRae on a number of songs". This is an abrupt paragraph opening after the last one, which is about radio broadcasts. Maybe set the context first?

• Not quite sure how you want me to bridge the gap. Any thoughts?.

Something like "Stafford continued to record"; "Stafford continued to release records"; "Stafford continued to have commercial success with recordings"?

• Done

"and in 1950, Stafford followed" is easier to read as "and, in 1950, Stafford followed".

• Done

"Stafford had a clause inserted". Use "had had"?

• Done

"she made history". In what sense, if it was only "very rare"?

• Done

"Communism" should have a lower case "c".

• Done

"titled: "Jo Stafford: Her Songs Upset Joe Stalin" earned" should be "titled, "Jo Stafford: Her Songs Upset Joe Stalin", earned".

• Done

Sorry: I got it wrong – there's no need for the comma after "titled".

• Done

Pause for now: will comment more later EddieHugh (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments on content

"the Grammy Award for Best Comedy Album—the only accolade she received from them". 3 songs are in the Grammy Hall of Fame, though. Here.

• I can only find one. You Belong to Me was inducted into their Hall of Fame in 1998. What are the other two?

With the Pied Pipers (assuming she was with them then).

• Done. She'd left them by the time they recorded Accentuate the Positive in 1945, but I've included the 1940 recording of I'll Never Smile Again as she is heard on that recording.

Is anything else on her family needed? She had at least one other sister – not relevant to her career, but it's often given as family background.

• Perhaps it is enough to say she was the third of four sisters? I've added this, so let me know if that is ok.

ok for me, but I'm new to this, so perhaps others could comment.

Discography; film and television. There's the usual problem with these: what's the rationale for including the examples given?

• It always seems kind of odd to me to have a section that just consists of a redirect, but if they have to go they have to go.

See my comment immediately above: I'm happy to follow the norm/consensus.

Is there any indication of when her radio and TV shows ended? It's hard to get an idea of how much she was doing at any given time if no end date is given. EddieHugh (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, The Chesterfield Supper Club for example finished in 1950, but sourcing that would be difficult. I'll take a look, but can't make any guarantees.

Thanks for the review. Most things addressed, but I have one or two queries so will keep checking back for a reply. Cheers. Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again. Paul MacDermott (talk) 16:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for you patience and determination. Continuing...

"and business trip; Stafford had an engagement at the London Palladium. Stafford and Weston had two children; Tim". Both semi-colons should be colons.

• Done

"Tim was born in 1952 and Amy was born 1956". Change to "Tim was born in 1952 and Amy in 1956"? Use a comma before "and" if it suits US style.

• Done

"She had her best-known hits "Jambalaya", "Shrimp Boats", "Make Love to Me", and "You Belong to Me" around this time". Enclosing the titles with dashes would be better. i.e. after "hits" and before "around".

• Done

Choose "UK" or "U.K.", "US" or "U.S." and apply throughout – there is definitely variation in the use of UK/U.K.

• Done

"Ella Fitzgerald, Mel Tormé and Rosemary Clooney". Are we using Oxford commas in this article? Again – check for consistency.

• I assume by Oxford comma you mean it follows the format "A, B, and C" rather than "A, B and C". I'll listen through it, but I may not get all of 'em.

Marriage to Paul Weston and later career. There's a relatively big gap here: 1955 to early 60s. Any idea of what happened then?

• Now 1955-58, but I'll look for more. Obviously the Jonathan and Darlene stuff fills in that gap, but belongs to a different section.

Dependent on the above point, "Both Stafford and Weston returned" should start the final paragraph; "In the early 1960s, [...] and Rosemary Clooney" could join the preceding one.

• Done

"These albums were released". Clarify which label.

• Done

"Sinatra sold it to Warner Brothers". When?

• Done

Now need to make explicit the fact that Stafford left Warner.

• I'll keep looking, but not sure it can be sourced. The Billboard source also makes no mention of Capital.

"was not known initially". To whom?

• Done

"at a Hollywood party."" Source for quote needed.

• Done

"George Avakian and Irving Townsend who". Add comma before "who".

• Done

"The head of Columbia's artists". Link the opening sentence in this paragraph to the previous paragraph by putting "Darlene Edwards" somewhere in the first phrase. This requires some rephrasing.

• Done

"Stafford and Weston claimed that the Edwardses". In the previous paragraph they were billed as "Jonathan and Darlene", not "the Edwardses".

• Done

"in September 1957 Time". Comma after "1957".

• Done

"Time magazine said that". Some object to "said" for written publications. "reported"?

• Done

"Strikes Back!." Remove period.

• Done

"as a single, backed by". Ambiguous. Clarify that the other was on the "B" side (if that's the case).

• Done

"Mitch Miller blamed the couple's". Any idea when this happened? If near the time of release, this could go in the earlier paragraph, to maintain the chronology.

• Haven't found a date for this, but will keep looking.

The show ended in 1966, according to this, but that clashes with the current source, so I think things can be left as they are.

"She retired completely from the industry in 1975" is contradicted in the next sentence.

• She retired fully? Even if she briefly came out of retirement later, surely she still officially retired.

ok.

"Share Inc.—a charity aiding people with developmental disabilities in which". Add a dash after "disabilities".

• Done

"Concord Records tried to persuade". When?

• Again, no date appears to be available for this. Jazzhistoryonline (unsure if that's considered to be a reliable source) says it was a few years later.

ok: the period is implied.

"Corinthian Records which Weston". Comma before "which".

• Done

"She was interred". Find a Grave has been mentioned elsewhere as not a reliable source.

• Hopefully nndb is better, but if not it'll have to go.

"versatile vocalists of her era". Which era?

• Sources are not more specific than this. I would assume they meant the 1940s and 50s, since that is when she was most active. Any thoughts?

Fair enough: it can be taken as implicit.

"Terry Teachout has described". "has" is redundant.

• Done

"In 1960, she said". Use "Stafford" instead of "she".

• Done

"mark 25 million record sales". 25M has been mentioned before. Unless this counts as a special award, the "diamond-studded disc" bit could be added there instead.

• Done

"The New York Fashion Academy named her one of the Best Dressed Women of 1955 while she was presenting". Lots of ambiguity.

• Done

"Songbirds magazine has said that". "said" again. Maybe it's just me...

• Done

"said that by". Comma after "that".

• Done

"Her 1960 collaboration with Weston". This has already been stated. Use something like, "In addition to a Grammy Award for... The Pied Pipers'..."?

• Done

"She is the author". Doesn't fit under this section's heading.

• Not really sure where this fits. It was suggested I could add it, but (apart from the autobiography she co-authored) it seems to be her only print publlished work. Is there a better section for it?

Books? Publications?

Change "(unable to read cue cards" to "(as she was unable to read cue cards"?

• Done

Looking very quickly at the references: 95 has red text, indicating a problem; 80 has a capitalization problem ("GrAMMY"); the publication date for 67 must be wrong; and the pattern of whether the date is in brackets or not is unclear (if there isn't one, they will need to be standardized). EddieHugh (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not quite sure why the date thing's happening. Any chance of some help with these?

I've checked and tried a few things. Looks like that is what is supposed to happen: no author means no brackets.

I don't know exactly how the references should look, what might not be a good source, etc., so hopefully someone else will be able to go through them. Last comment, though: 85 is just a link to an Amazon page, so that can be removed.

Thanks once more for this very detailed feedback. Apart from the one or two points I've mentioned above, I think I've done everything I can with this from the review. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 16:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Do you mind if I run through standardizing some of the text? I could list them here, but it's at the stage where there's not much left and it's quicker to do it myself. You could revert any you disagreed with. EddieHugh (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Go for it. Paul MacDermott (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. I did mostly punctuation. Sorry – I had to paste over your last edit (of the Independent source), but as far as I can tell I incorporated it into the new version. That reference was repeated, so I combined them with refname. I checked only the titles in the references, but also noticed that the authors in 57 are wrong. I looked the book up... seems that The Guinness Book of 500 Number One Hits is by Rice only; The Guinness Book of Number One Hits is by Gambaccini and Rice. Hope that helps. EddieHugh (talk) 23:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for fixing the Independent reference. I found another one for the New York Sun that I missed. Also updated the Guinness ref. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Lovely. Are you sure that the Guinness ref is correct? My library indicates that there was only one author. EddieHugh (talk) 20:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• Done. Thanks, I missed that one. The book's Amazon entry lists the authorship as "Jonathan Rice, etc", so the ref should list only the one. Paul MacDermott (talk) 21:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK (PD, PD-US-no renewal, PD-pre1978). Sources and authors provided.

• Details for lack of copyright notice and/or renewal are included in all image summaries. Nice work adding such clear background information - makes checks that much easier. GermanJoe (talk) 08:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support I have read through the article and I find it to be as complete as it could possibly be. It is really good work by user Paul McDermott. Good work.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Bruce1ee

• Publications: "Easy Lessons in Singing with Hints for Vocalists", am I correct that ISBNs didn't exist in 1951?

• Don't seem to (WorldCat Entry) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• Ref 17: "Dialogues in Wwing: Intimate Conversations with the Stars of the Big Band Era", that should be "Dialogues in Swing ..."

• Fixed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• External links: "Bio on the MP3.com site" is a mirror of "Jo Stafford at Allmusic.com" —Bruce1ee^talk 06:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've trimmed that and several others, Paul, as I don't quite think they fit our guidelines for external links. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• No worries, thanks for fixing everything. I reverted this edit someone made yesterday as I couldn't find any other instance of the site's use on Wikipedia, so thought it may not be regarded as a reliable source. Paul MacDermott (talk) 09:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. I did the GA review of this article in February and I'm happy with the improvements that have been made since then. I believe it meets the FA criteria. Thanks Crisco for attending to the issues I raised above. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Audio samples

Comment

• Do you think some audio samples would improve the article? Jimknut (talk) 00:17, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
  • They would definitely add to it, but uploading audio files is sadly one of the things I'm unable to do. Feel free to help though. My suggestion would be to include samples of "Little Man with a Candy Cigar" (her first solo recording), "You Belong to Me" (her biggest hit) and a Jonathan and Darlene Edwards track, possibly something like "Paris in the Spring". Paul MacDermott (talk) 08:59, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Four sound samples have now been added. I will leave it to you to edit the descriptions of each of these samples. Overall I think the article looks very good. Jimknut (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
      • That's great, thanks. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment - as noted by Jimknut (thanks for the samples) the fair-use rationales need some more work:

• The parameters for "Replaceability" and "Commercial" should be filled with a brief argument for these criteria (see other fair-use media for some examples). "n.a." is no valid fair-use argument.
• "Purpose of Use" - each sound sample should have a separate, specific and detailed purpose of use. How does the sample "significantly increase" the reader's understanding? What specific details of her style and music are shown in each sample? Samples which show similar aspects need to be trimmed to 1 sample per aspect ("minimal usage").
• Please add the total length of the original song for each sample to "minimal usage" (the allowed sample length depends on the full song length). GermanJoe (talk) 12:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've had a look, but I think I'll have to leave them for Jimknut to fix. I checked out a few files (such as this one), but they seem to use a different template. From what you say we probably need to trim the samples used to two: the Darlene Edwards clip and one other. I'll remove them though until the issues are fixed as I wouldn't want it to impact negatively on the FAC outcome. Once they're fixed please feel free to revert my edits. Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:24, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• I reworked the "fair rational" for "You Belong to Me". If this is okay perhaps we could add it back into the article. I modeled my rational after the sample of "Blue Suede Shoes" used on the Elvis Presley page.Jimknut (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• Looks fine, thank you. I slightly trimmed the rationale - importance of the song is not that relevant (for fair-use), a sample just has to be representative for her style and should be discussed in the article. Another quick note: as a general rule of thumb try to keep sound samples at 10 percent of the songs original length or at 30 secs, whichever is less (see WP:NFC). Length for this sample is OK, otherwise the lyrics and melody would be cut too much. GermanJoe (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• I put the excerpt of "You Belong to Me" back into the article. Meanwhile, I reworked the fair rational for the excerpt of "Paris in the Spring". Take a look and, if okay, I'll stick that one back in, too. As for the sound samples of "Little Man With a Candy Cigar" and the "Hey, Good Lookin'" duet with Frankie Laine, shall I upgrade the fair rational on them or is the article good enough without them? (I think the Laine duet has a valid place in the article as the two were very popular at the time and it's significantly different from "You Belong to Me" — i.e. a duet vs. a solo.) Jimknut (talk) 23:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, i'd prefer to leave the selection of samples to topic experts like you and Paul as editorial decision. If you think, that a sample shows a notable and significant distinct feature of her music, you should try to work it in the article. Just make sure, that the song and its distinct features are discussed in the article. Tweaking the FUR then is easily done. GermanJoe (talk) 06:55, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• As a non-subject expert (although admittedly rather conservative when it comes to fair-use) I'd stick with what is in the article now: her greatest commercial success (i.e. the hit most people remember her for) and something representative of her duets with her husband, which is a very notable feature of her career. The others, although they would be nice to listen to, would not add much encyclopedic value to the article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• I'd agree with that. "You Belong to Me" is the song most associated with her, and the one everyone seems to remember. We could probably still use the others for other articles. I added "Hey Good Lookin'" to the corresponding article, and "Little Man with a Candy Cigar" to Tommy Dorsey, although I don't think that article actually discusses the song so it may not be usable there. Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• I re-instated the excerpt of the Jonathan and Darlene song. I think this and the excerpt of "You Belong to Me" should be sufficient for this article. On a completely different part of this article ("Early Years") there is a picture of the Stafford Sisters. Could we identify which one is Jo, which one is Christine and which one is Pauline? Jimknut (talk) 17:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Sound samples - OK. Both have valid and detailed fair-use rationales. They are a bit longer than recommended, but hard to cut off somewhere else. With only two samples in the article they are within "minimal usage". GermanJoe (talk) 18:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Support — Looks good. Jimknut (talk) 20:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

• I say let's promote this article soon. It is of FA standard now.--BabbaQ (talk) 10:25, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Source review - OK. some polishing needed (done), a few questions to RS: (done)

• Use p. for single pages and pp. for page ranges, some are mixed up.
• Use en dash (MOS:DASH for page ranges, some use hyphens.
• Be consistent in page ranges, some have ppp-pp, some use ppp-ppp (i prefer full numbers, but either way works).
• refs #71, #72 - is TV.com considered a WP:RS? It's user-contributed content, with little editorial oversight.

• Both replaced.

• refs #82, # 92 - the usage of IMDB as source is strongly discouraged, as most IMDB content does not meet WP:RS standards (see WP:IMDB/RS). Needs work.

• No other source to support Lolita, so that's gone. Shower of Stars is covered by other sources, making imdb superfluous.

• What makes ref #102 NNDB a reliable source? (beta website). Possible to cite the cemetery info with a newspaper or similar?

• Nothing else citing cemetery, so it'll have to go.

• Most internet hits for a quick search are just mirroring the Wiki-info :/. Anyway, it can be re-added later, if a RS pops up. GermanJoe (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Other sources appear reliable (newspapers, magazines, ...), spotchecked a few.

Aside from the mentioned points formatting looks OK (but i suck at source reviews and may have missed a dot or two somewhere). I tweaked the first three points, but point 4, 5 and 6 need some work (sourcing). GermanJoe (talk) 07:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look at these and fixing the other stuff

Thanks for the quick fixes, status updated (formatted your last reply a bit to avoid confusion). GermanJoe (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 05:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.