Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy XI

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:46, 14 March 2008.

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Final Fantasy XI

previous FAC

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• The previous FAC's improvements have been implemented, such as replaced the images and added more appropriate ones, filling out the lead, added a score chart to the reception section, restructured parts of the article, and also trimmed and bulked up some sections with references. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 22:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Several references used in the articles point to a Wiki (not a reliable source). References 17, 18 and 50 are not presented properly (a template like Cite web could be used). Image:ChocoboridersFFXI.jpg has been tagged as too big to meet the fair-use criteria. The reception section may be a bit too small for a game which is seen as popular and has four expansions. Sales figures and information about Japanese reception should be added (did Famitsu review the game?). FightingStreet (talk) 23:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have addressed all your concerns, please let me know if you have others. :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Support Looks good now. FightingStreet (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The game never got a 40/40 from Famitsu yet editors refuse to remove that false information from the article. Article fails both accuracy and stability. FightingStreet (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

We corrected the questionable review, so it passes accuracy, unless you can point out other flaws. And how does it fail stability? Massive improvement of an article is not a sign of "unstability", in fact it is encouraged to make articles Featured. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Have the collective editors involved discussed this on the talk page? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

How do you know that? Do you have that issue of Famitsu? The Prince (talk) 15:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have it because it does not exist. FightingStreet (talk) 15:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion started at Talk:Final Fantasy XI#Famitsu score. Talk it out guys. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Support The correct Famitsu score has been found and added. FightingStreet (talk) 21:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support - Verified references. — Blue。 18:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: The first and last sentences in the lead seem repetitive. Isn't the same thing mentioned twice? The Prince (talk) 21:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support looks like FA material. I'd only suggest more images, at least one of Vana'diel (all but two featured FFs have a world map). igordebraga ≠ 21:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support! I am just unsure how to justify it, like what would it illustrate that would make it necessary? I'm not sure how to word it. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

"Setting", of course. As the FUR of the Spira image says: "The image is used to illustrate important characteristics of the game mentioned in the article, which conveys to the reader an idea of what they look like". igordebraga ≠ 00:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support per above comments. A world map would be nice, though if you can't wing it, oh well. --PresN (talk) 01:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Map Added, with very strong rationale. :) Cut, not strictly necessary image. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: The organization is kinda different from other video game FAs, but it works pretty well here. This was a good read and I must say this is one of the most in-depth, yet still concise, "Development" sections I've ever read. A few things jumped out at me that I think will help improve the article.
  • In the second paragraph of "Gameplay", the sentence "There are 32 worlds (a cluster of servers) available for play, and one world used by Square Enix" seems a bit off to me. More specifically its meaning wasn't blatantly obvious. Is a world a cluster of servers or are the 32 worlds a cluster of servers. Also, this is a minor point, but what does Square Enix use the one world for?
  • Another minor point, in the "Interface" section, "the game also provides a method for him or her to communicate within the game (although it would be significantly slower than having a hardware keyboard input)." Though I can see how it might be helpful, the portion in parenthesis seems unnecessary.
  • In "Basic gameplay", the term "enmity" doesn't seem to be as defined as well as "claim" is defined. I don't know if this is within FA criteria, but an interwikilink to wikitionary could solve that. Sandy, is that something that could be done?
  • The "Crafting and hobbies" section seems a bit more detailed than necessary, especially since there is an article for the gameplay of Final Fantasy XI.
  • Also in the "Crafting and hobbies" section, the auction system is mentioned before it is explained in "Game economy". I'd suggest moving it down to the "Game economy" section, as it doesn't really add much to "Crafting and hobbies".
  • The "Audio" section could use a few more citations
  • In the "Reception" section, there is a small two sentence paragraph about the Rise of Zilart that looks a bit out of place by itself. I'd either add a bit more content or combine it to the paragraph before it.
  • In the "Critical reaction" section, should Computer Video Game Magazine be Computer and Video Games?
  • Another minor point, could an image of some of the merchandise be added? If not, no big deal.
  • Some of the citations make use of the "year" parameter instead of the "date" parameter to display the date of publication. I believe the date will now automatically link the date if it is in YYYY-MM-DD format. I also believe that format is preferred so that an editor's preferences can display the date in their regional format.
  • Ref 90 is missing a publisher. Also some of the publishers could be wikilinked. Like PlayOnline, IGN, Gamasutra, etc. I don't know if this is prefered or not, but I think it helps a reader check references.

My list may be a bit long, but most of these are minor points that are for fine tuning. I'll check back once they've been addressed. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC))

Graphics removed, please the WP:FAC instructions. Also, there is no sig attached to the "done" indications, so they have no meaning to me unless I step back through the diffs. Done is not done until the reviewer strikes the comments; graphics aren't helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Striked out some of my comments that have been addressed. I'll give the article another read after the last few comments have been addressed. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

I think I have fixed everything you pointed out, included added two references to the audio section. And instead of a merchandise picture, which I couldn't find, I added a picture of the composer that was free use. Let me know if there are other concerns! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Addition comments: The article is really shaping up nicely. I really like how it is structured; there are tidbits of out-of-universe info sprinkled throughout the "Gameplay" section. And it is much more condensed too. After giving it another read through, there are a few more things that popped out at me.
  • In the "Expansions" section, the Chains of Promathia part states, "On August 16, 2005, the day of the expansions release, a bundled version was released on DVD called 'The Vana'diel Collection'". The release year is listed as 2004, but the expansion was released in 2005? Also, what was bundled in the collection? Was it Rise of the Zilart and Chains of Promathia? Was it Chains of Promathia and the original game?
  • In the "Audio" section, is Distant Worlds a song title? If so, then it should be in double quotes and not italics per MoS.
  • This one isn't that big of a deal, but since "Promotion and merchandise" is so short, you may want to consider moving the content to "Awards and legacy" since the last paragraph of the legacy is about adaptations/merchandise. Just a thought, I like trying to consolidate smaller sections into larger ones. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

All fixed! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

How is merchandise "legacy"? FightingStreet (talk) 10:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Though I agree that merchandise should generally have it's own section, I felt it was a bit small to stand on its own, especially with mention of written adaptations right above it. Also, merchandise is a type of legacy; related products descended from the original intellectual property. Just look at Star Wars memorabilia. If others disagree with the edit I did, they are welcome to undo it. I certainly won't oppose the article based on a minor point like this. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC))

Support: All my concerns have been addressed and I feel the article meets the FA criteria. It is comprehensive, well-written, and meets style guidelines. Also, in my opinion, it is probably one of the best VG articles on Wikipedia. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC))

• Notes: WP:MOS#Captions work is needed on the difference between punctuation on sentence fragments and complete sentences. Please review WP:MOSNUM#Precise language and Tony1 (talk · contribs)'s text redundancy exercises, for example, why does this sentence contain the word now? As of March 28, 2007, players can now experience the first installment of the Chocobo Racing system. Basic copyedit errors easily spotted, example: As of June 12, 2007, The mercenary rank "Second Lieutenant" was ... WP:MOSNUM confusion: Famitsu rated Final Fantasy XI 40 out of 40, one of only 7 games to receive their highest score. Reliable sources, 1c: what makes this a reliable source, it appears to be a forum? http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10;mid=119524855879052808;num=21;page=1 This article warrants a closer look from supporters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• Working through your notes, all should be complete today, though I may need a few days to read those prose articles and then copyedit the article accordingly. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, completely rewrote the prose of the article, it looks a lot better now. Let me know what you think! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Criterion three issue: Image:Vanamap.jpg does not appear supported by WP:NFCC#8, as it does not significantly contribute to our understanding. The existing prose of “two main landmasses with two smaller islands flanking them, which in turn are surrounded by small islands” is perfectly adequate to facilate understanding. Earlier request for more images has no apparent basis beyond personal preference and no consideration of Fair Use implications. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 21:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I cut it, if it was strictly necessary it would already have been in the article. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 22:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I had thought that as well; after all, it isn't even in Vana'diel. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 23:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Note that I've now put the picture on Vana'diel. Might as well use it for something. FightingStreet (talk) 23:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I'm going to do a “thorough” review. If I could have ca. 24 hours (I suspect it will take substantially less time, however) before closing action is taken, it would be appreciated. Here are some 1A issues from the lead alone (maybe do a CE before I do a complete write up tonight?):ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 17:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
  • First sentence says: “is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game”. Do you mean “massively popular” or is “massively” not meant to be an adverb?
    • I guess that's the acronym, huh? What grammar school flunky came up with that? In any case, not this article's problem.
  • Commas needed, e.g. “on May 16, 2002 and…” should be “on May 16, 2002, and…”, “in April 2006 as the system's…” should be "in April 2006, as the system's…"
  • Awkward phrasing: “progress through the storyline of the three nations and 4 expansion packs”. Do you mean storyline encompassing/unfolding over/etc? Also, “As of 2006 there are currently…” It’s 2008. There’s nothing “current” about a 2006 figure.
  • Redundant phrasing: “hundreds of quests available in the game” (as opposed to in a book?) and “total of over 500,000 users”. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 17:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as we are still reviewing, I doubt they will close it on us. I made the corrections you noted. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, that Sandy can be a loose cannon. ;) Actually, I hadn't seen that she had outstanding comments. I'll review tomorrow, as RL has intervened. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 04:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Did I hear my name? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, folks; I'm ill and busy in real life, so I'm just briefly popping in and out of Wiki. A thorough review, it seems, is not in the cards (I'd just be incoherent anyway). ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 01:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment—I'll give the article a pass when I get a chance. — Deckiller 18:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: This is a very well-written article, although I have a few concerns with it before it goes to FA.

• The caption "Chocobos were a much requested addition to the game" is a bit misleading. In it of itself, it is unsourced, as the article states that chocobos raising and breeding was a much-requested feature by gamers.
• I don't understand the presence of the Uematsu photo; he scored most of the FF series, and his pic is not featured in most Final Fantasy or even most "Music of Final Fantasy ..." articles.
• The article lacks a picture that depicts any sort of combat whatsoever.
• The table describing the game's expansions looks a bit bulky. Much of the data looks sloppily arranged. Much of the info that would be helpful (that there are new jobs availible for expansions 1, 3, and 4, that Wings of the Goddess is supposedly a return to the Crystal War theme, etc.) is absent, whereas some of the info that is present (Mog Locker increased to 80 slots, Gobbiebag quests 7+8 added, etc.) are unnnecessary as per WP is NOT a guide.

(Oh, and BTW ЭLСОВВОLД, the "massively" in MMORPG is a adverb is used to modify the adverb "multiplayer" which in turn directly modifies the term "role-playing game," so the grammar is fine ;) ) —Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 20:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, fixed the Chocobo image, I was trying to use fewer words in the caption, but its much clearer this way. Also, I didn't include a battle image as there is no separate battle screen, and it would be basically the same as the two images shown already. Also, we wanted to include a free use image, and the composer is notable, as he is one of the most famous video game composers. On the expansions section, your right that is probably the weakest section now, I'll start filling it in and let you know when I finish :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright, expansion section trimmed and then re-filled with info on what was added in the expansions. Also, added more development info to the article and some references. At this point, all fixes have been fixed :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Deckiller said (above) he wanted to give it a pass; is he satisfied? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly when he's on spring break, this week? Next week? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments:

• A monster is "claimed" the moment a player performs any offensive action upon it, including, but not limited to attacks, usage of offensive job abilities, and casting an (offensive) spell. – I don’t understand this sentence. And why is the word offensive in brackets?
• Players obtain in-game money known as gil by defeating a type of monster called Beastmen, though, unlike previous Final Fantasy games, this monsters leaves only small amounts. – This monsters?
• One such minigame is fishing, where players can measure their strength against the fish they attempt to catch. Another is Clamming, where players collect as many fish or sea creatures as possible without going over their bucket's size limit. – Fishing is not capitalised, but Clamming is. Why?
• Sony launched a multi-million dollar ad campaign to promote Final Fantasy XI and the hard drive add-on that it was the first game to require and utilize. – What does this mean?
• Having also been released on the PlayStation 2 as well as the personal computer, it became the first cross-platform MMORPG ever created. – Shouldn’t it be mentioned that it was also released for the Xbox 360?
• IGN called it a well done but unoriginal game, and in fact with only Japanese servers running North American players were forced to play with already much more experienced Japanese players; all the quests had literally already been beaten. – The second part of the sentence doesn’t seem relevant to IGN’s review.
• The parameter “designer” in the VG infobox contains too many people. Only the most important designers should be included. The Prince (talk) 23:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, addressed your concerns, and have some feedback:

• As to what to cut from the designer section in the top box, I don't see anything to cut. The jobs they have are very specific, and most of them are very famous in their fields, be it music, game design, etc.
• As to mentioning it is on the Xbox 360, the fact that this game was released on it is mentioned over half a dozen times in the article.

Thanks for your comments! :) Let me know if you have any more. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Support. Looks good now. The Prince (talk) 08:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.