Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 42
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Michael Servetus
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | Resolved. See closing comments Guy Macon (talk) 03:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion | ||
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview User Anatoly Ilych Belousov insists on keeping a section in the article titled "New Works" in which alleged discoveries by just one Spanish scholar, Dr. González-Echevarría, are presented as if they enjoyed generalized consensus by Servetus scholars. These works are still under academic review and further studies are needed before claiming that they can be included in Servetus' corpus of authentic works. I respected the new section and wanted to add a POV-section template, but the editor has removed the banner and replaced it with a link to the scholar's own website as enough proof that the information is reliable. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried to maintain a civilized discussion in the Talk page, but this editor and his small group of supporters insist on keeping the article as they like in support of Dr. González-Echevarría's views and ignoring what other scholars have published. How do you think we can help? I think that the section should be preserved until further proof is obtained that the so-called "new works" are legitimate. Meanwhile, some banner should be visible at the beginning of the "New Works" section, warning readers that the issue is not yet settled by scholars and it is simply an individual's original research (which may be valuable but still needs further investigation). Opening comments by JdemarcosMost of my viewpoints are expressed above. I would like to simply point out that IMO the Wikipedia is not a place to promote original research, and the "New Works" section (actually an oximoron for a 16th-century writer to have "new" works) is a list of publications whose authorship is defended only by one researcher. I would expect more academic consensus. This may be extended to other references to this original research elsewhere in the article, although they might stay if they do not contradict established scientific views on the topic. Thanks. --jofframes (talk) 13:46, 10 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by Anatoly Ilych BelousovA.I Belousov. I have no intention of keeping this discussion. Users talked in the talk page, it is just De Marcos who did not like it. By the way , it was not me who removed that " not neutrality" label, and that user waited for more than a month, after the voting in the talk page. Too long,for a clear consensus. The banner should be then of course as well in the identity and birthplace of Servetus. Which is not mentioned, at all. And for there is a growing theory, it has to have the banner. So, if there is in one place, ok, fine, but in the other as well. I am out of this discussion, I will react to editions , and I guess other users will.--Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk) 16:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC) Michael Servetus discussion 1
(lets see if this time I get to do it in a right way..)I said what I wanted to say, it is false to say it is not recognized in the academic world. I provided 10 academic journals, plus abstracts of the SSHM and the International Society for the History of Medicine. So that reasoning is just not true. It is the important thing I repeatidly said. That is the key here, according to the rules. And it shows what it was said was not true. Isn't that clear?--Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk) 01:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC) I would like to help parties build policy based rationale. The relevant policy for this dispute is Neutral point of view, and the particular application of this policy depends on the following factors:
Also note: though one of the editors may have a conflict of interests, such conflict does not automatically invalidate his position. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:55, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Michael Servetus discussion 2I just spent 20 minutes going through the history at Michael Servetus and I am having trouble figuring out exactly what article text these alleged citations in academic journals are attached to. Could someone quote the exact text that is under dispute? In the meantime, let's look at those references: http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/busquedadoc?t=francisco+javier+gonzalez+echeverria&db=1&td=todo 503 error: "The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later." Will try again later. http://www.miguelservetinvestigacion.com/enlaces.html Spanish language webpage, translates to "Life of Michael Servetus." References other documents which may be usable, but this page is not an academic journal or a reliable source. Don't use it. http://www.revista-raices.com/sumarios/suma.php?sum=49 Spanish language webpage, translates to "Roots, a magazine of Jewish culture published in Spain by SEFARAD BOOKS, SL, 1986." Not an academic journal. Not an article: link just goes to table of contents that does not contain the word "Servetus." http://www.revista-raices.com/sumarios/suma.php?sum=40 Spanish language webpage, translates to "Roots, a magazine of Jewish culture published in Spain by SEFARAD BOOKS, SL, 1986." Not an academic journal. Not an article: link just goes to list of articles. One item on the list translates as "Article: The Jewish origin of Servetus." http://www.aki-yerushalayim.co.il/ Website language is Judaeo-Spanish, looks like an online magazine, no use of the word "Servetus", certainly not an academic journal. http://www.ramc.cat/revistes.asp Another Spanish language list of articles, this time from the website of The Royal Academy of Medicine of Catalonia. Come up with an actual citation to a journal that talks about Servetus. and you might have something. http://www.biusante.parisdescartes.fr/ishm/vesalius/VESx1999x05x01.pdf Document from the journal of the International Society for the history of medicine. Mentions Servetus, so I need to see what text the citation is alleged to support. http://www.biusante.parisdescartes.fr/ishm/vesalius/VESx2001x07x02.pdf Document from the journal of the International Society for the history of medicine. Mentions Servetus, so I need to see what text the citation is alleged to support. http://www.biusante.parisdescartes.fr/ishm/eng/galv/prog_06.htm Another list of documents, this time from the Inter-University Medicine (BIUM) and Pharmacy (BIUP). No mention of Servetus, not an article in an academic journal. http://www.sehm.es/pages/investigacion/publicaciones-socios Another list of documents, this time from The Spanish Society for the History of Medicine. No mention of Servetus, not an article in an academic journal. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC) The ISHM and SSHM are totally big and neutral and peer reviewed, same than pliegos de Biblifilia, Historia 16, Aki reusalahim, Raices Jewish Magazine of Culture, and so. So what are you talking about? It is in very important peer reviewed systems. Stop saying things that are not real. Historia 16 is an academic Journal, Same than Vesalius, same than Pliegos de Bibliofilia or the 2 academic Jewish Magazines I referred. Again, None has given any reference to an academic journal where it would be talked of the new works, in the way that user wants. It is accepted in more than 58 countries thanks to the International Society for the History of Medicine, many universities, and has many supporters, which I listed in my talk page. So, it is the work of one person who has accomplished an amazing discovery, and has got peer reviews systems to check it and to admit it, cause of his solid ands deep research, and they are some of the biggest peer review systems of the world. So stop saying things that are not true thanks. By the way , the " affiliate " to the ISHM, is not true, there are common members that is. Besides he was not invited to talk, it was the president Jacint Corbeia i Corbeia and some other members who talked and defended and communicated Gonzalez discoveries in the RAMC. So, the one claim for doing so is that all this was accomplished by a man. Well, it was. He has many more supporters, and powerful organizations, present in more than 58 countries with scientific commmitte peer reviewed system. So, sometimes in history, Galieo or Newton, can accomplish things by themselves, and prove it scientficaly. And though wikipedia should be calmed deciding on this issues, if it is supported by strong peer reviewed systems, it can perfectly go in Wikipedia, and it should. Besides, the ISHM chooses his members freely, and accepts communications with a very hard revision, and tests, so if Gonzalez was hosted was cause his relevance as a scientist and researcher was important, not just in past , which does not count, but about the communications he had to present. So, the ISHM accepted 5 communications of that researcher, cause he is brilliant, and cause he made scientific communications, on the works, either if it is in Galveston, Patra, Tunis, Barcelona, or Kos. Besides he also communicated in Malaga, Santiago, Albacete with the Spansih Society for the History of Medicine, and in the Andres Laguna INternational Congress. So yea, the ISHM, has accepted, as the SSHM repeatidely great communications of Gonzalez, and presented it in Vesalius. Same that it did with Gregorio Marañón, or Pedro Lain Entralgo in the Past , many Spanish geniuses, cause their communcations are great, and theu were great researchers, so the fact the ISHM loves someone, means that person is great as a researcher, and not the contrary, as u tried to indicate. Please, do not try to make one of the biggest and most important scientific organization like a trifle , when your own MSI, is an organization that does not communicate any finding. Just reflection works, on old stuff of servetus, no research of archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk • contribs) 14:24, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia says something accepted in peer review systems should be there, so the ISHM has one of the biggest systems in the world when it comes to peer review and pressence in the world. I think that your policy of relentesly destroy anything with Gonzalez has to do with personal interest, anyway, we cannot talk about it here. Here we talk about content, I did say what I had to say about the ISHM, I provided academic journals, that it.It is the biggest contribution to Servetus for the last 500 years. It was claimed non academic acceptance, well one of the biggest organizations which is peer reviewed has accepted it. And the SSHM, , and the RAMC,and appears in many academic journals. The claim is illegitimate. No more issues.--Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk) 14:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Here you have all whole works and publications Here you have the mention and propper name and citiacion of all the sources. Not all are accesible online, if that is what u ment. But you can read some completelly, specially some Vesalius ones. And yes, some of them apparently are not working. They did some days ago. Anyway, pliegos de Bibliofilia and Historia 16, you can read the titles of the articles and have an idea, same with the communications in the ISHM and SSHM. The titles of the peer reviewed communcations are on the Opera Omnia of galen, On the Dioscories, on the Manuscritp of Complutense, on the Pharmacopoeia dispensarium, on the Portraits or figures from the old Testament, and Ymagine sfrom the old Testament, on the Eight parts of the sentence, on the Andria, on the Dischits of Cato, on the Beauty of the Latin Language. All the new works, communciated in Malaga, Santiago, Albacete, Patra, Tunisia, Galveston, Kos and Barcelona, all after passing the scientific committe, peer reviewed, and all stated in the book of abstracts, published every year. Here you can rear some news, in newspapers , some national ones, * just for curiosity* and , you can read more the medical Diary of Spain, it is in Spanish though, and the programme of the RAMC, it is th Black and white, in the middle of the 1st page. www.scoop.it/t/discovered-new-works-and-true-identity-of-michael-servetus-proofs . You can also read some Vesalius (dec 1999) and some Pliegos de Bibliofilia (12-1997) articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk • contribs) 15:13, 11 August 2012 (UTC) Note: editors, please, mark modifications to your comments with
No, note that those works were published in peer reviewed systems, some of them huge, with scientific committe and in more than 58 countries and 12 national delegations. We are not here for judging intentions, just for studying where those works were published, and I provided exact citacions. The personal website of that scholar gathers it, But that is irrelevant, the fact they are published is what matters. The fact they were gathered there, as it is normal, cause it is the profile of that researcher, does not make them untrue. It makes a good collection of the works published by this researcher, accepted in the huge ISHM and big SSHM and some academic Journals such as vesalius or pliegos de Bibliofilia, or more. And books of abstracts. Peer reviewed systems do not promote. Study and publish. His views are not personal, are shared by Huge organizations of peer reviewed systems. What is clear is a try to unpromote, based on personal reasons--Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk) 15:43, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Anatoly Ilych Belousov (16:28, 11 August 2012) deleted because it contained the comments "" Do you realy know what you talk of?"" and "Your behaviour sounds partial.". You were warned that any comments that talk about user conduct instead of article content would be deleted. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Michael Servetus discussion 3
Comments by Anatoly Ilych Belousov (21:20, 11 August 2012) deleted. You were warned to talk about article content, not user conduct, and you decided to break the rule. Your comment "I should not talk about users, well, it is so gross the stuff, that if I do not say it people will not understand what goes on" shows that you are aware of the rule and broke it on purpose. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC) Another DRN volunteer has spoken, and you're new comments were not appropriate for DRN, and so I have reverted them. As a DRN volunteer, ~~Ebe123~~ → report 22:21, 11 August 2012 (UTC) Is this a joke, I try to write the whole citazions that Guy Manon asked me to and you revert it? why. It has nothign to do with Users. (Comment moved here from my talk page --Guy Macon (talk) 22:46, 11 August 2012 (UTC)) You deleted many comments I did not just the ones talking of users, I was rewriting those, preciesly the citazions you asked for, and you block me? Do you find it logical?--Anatoly Ilych Belousov (talk) 22:35, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment - It appears that there is a scholar, González Echeverría, who claims that some works were in fact written by Servetus. I think the applicable WP guideline is WP:FRINGE, which comes into play when a single scholar holds a view that is not endorsed by the majority. WP:FRINGE says "an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. " The FRINGE guideline does not say that the viewpoint must be totally omitted from the article, but does say that the article cannot contain a lot of text about it. For example, even the Shakespeare article has an entire paragraph devoted to alterative author theories. For the Michael Servetus article, my suggestion would be that the "New" section, which is rather large now, be compacted down to a one paragraph summary which summarizes Echeverría's claims, and makes it clear they are not endorsed by the majority. --Noleander (talk) 22:34, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
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Religion in Turkey
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | OK. It's solved. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 16:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion | ||
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Well, for starters, the article presents the KONDA reasearch which states 2.3% agnostics and 0.9% atheists. In the nature of other Religion in Europe articles (all articles use irreligion; not that I'm the fan of the WP:OSE), I asked that those be incorporated into the 3.2% irreligious. However, not only that my proposal was left undiscussed on the talk page, but Saguamundi also requested the article's protection. So, not that it's only content dispute, it's also user conduct dispute (for not discussing and practically using WP:OWN). Please, help us resolve these disputes. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Edit warring (wasn't the best idea), temporally full protection (didn't help), discussion on talk page (Saguamundi didn't want to discuss - at all), help desk... How do you think we can help? Firstly, you could 'convince' Saguamundi to act properly and be a good Wikipedian discussing rather than edit warring (plus WP:OWN). Secondly, you could help me/us determine whether atheism and agnosticism should be unified as irreligion or not. Thirdly, you could find the third, compromising (and maybe creative) idea, so that everyone would be happy and satisfied. Opening comments by SaguamundiPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Opening comments by PoeticbentFirst of all, I'm NOT an "involved user". So, why am I being dragged into this? All I did was to revert once a suspicious chart with no external source and numbers that did not correspond to what the article said. I requested the citation. The uploader corrected his mistake and appologized in his edit summary; I let go of it, end of story. However, KONDA Research is a private company from Turkey (not from Poland) involved only in polling and data collection. It is one of over a dozen such companies in Turkey earning a living by research in Social Sciences and Humanities.[1] I wonder why the charts are posted everywhere around (from Albania to Norway), even if the actual data isn't new or differs from the equally reliable local sources? Is there a possible COI behind this unusual push for mass inclussion of KONDA results in Wikipedia? And why is a dynamic IP doing the posting instead of a registered user? There must be a better way of doing this, without giving grief. Poeticbent talk 15:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by ErpI've also had not been involved in the Religion in Turkey article; however, I have been involved in the Religion in Norway article and was considering bringing up the problem there though I was awaiting a discussion in Talk:Religion in Norway. Namely the renaming and shoehorning of cited statistics into a bar graph which I think misleads people. The same seems to be happening in the Turkey article (with the addition that the stats however munged apparently don't seem to come from the given reference). As an aside I find irreligion as a term inappropriate and vague for what is included under it; it is too strong a word to apply to the merely non-religious. It is not used very much as far as I can see in modern scholarly research and most of those uses are for specific historical periods when the term was in use. The Library of Congress has a sum total of at most 67 works classified as being about 'irreligion' (the search would also find use in notes or title) which means their definition of it must be quite narrow and far narrower than its current use in Wikipedia. --Erp (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by TahcPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Opening comments by SabrebdPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Religion in Turkey discussionDiscussionI will wait for the other party to comment. Page protection is never the solution to a dispute, and atheism is different than irreligion. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 00:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC) Hi! I'm a DRN volunteer and am awaiting an opening statement by Saguamundi. Electric Catfish 21:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC) As long as there is already some chat here, I would like to interject. Agnosticism and irreligion are unrelated (see Agnostic theism). Thus uniting agnostics and atheists you get a set of people who are not necessarily irreligious; renaming atheists to irreligious you get a set of people, which is smaller then amount of irreligious. Statistics is all about it: the way the question is posed severely limits ability of data manipulation. That is why the community-wide RfCs are normally prepared for quite a lot of time. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I partly agree with Poeticbent. The volounteer added all of you (who clearly have nothing to do with Religion in Turkey dispute; I actually already explained that). As for 'KONDA agenda', it could be prestent (but only in Religion in Turkey), since (read Religion in Turkey's talk and hisory pages) Saguamundi was one instisting (for several years) "stick to KONDA", "we better stick to KONDA", etc. I posted a question on help desk regarding major Wikipedia justice I experienced in these few days [2]. So, KONDA's present only in Religion in Turkey, so no 'KONDA agenda' is present. 93.86.129.66 (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
How exactly would you derive the amount of "irreligious" in the "Religion in Turkey"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Acually, after a little thought, I think we should wait a few days (why we couldn't), since I remember some users, such as BigNate37 (talk · contribs), Electriccatfish2 (talk · contribs) and Ebe123 (talk · contribs) promised they'll join in the discussion. I'll left them notes on their respective talk pages. 178.223.223.170 (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
I have to say that, after reading our discussion again, I think we solved everything except "humanism". Now, the results are:
I'll start changing the terms and report back here. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 11:58, 12 August 2012 (UTC) Now → EUR (Irreligion → Atheism), ALB (no chart), AND (no chart), ARM (no disputed terms), AUT (stayed Irreligion), AZE (no disputed terms), BLR (help needed), BEL (Irreligion → Atheism), BIH (no disputed terms), BGR (help needed), CRO (Irreligion → Atheism), CYP (no disputed terms), CZE (Irreligion → No religion), DNK (Irreligion → No religion), EST (Irreligion → No religion), FIN (Irreligion → No religion), ITA (Irreligion → No religion), IRL (Irreligion → No religion), KAZ (Irreligion → Atheism), ISL (Irreligion → No religion), HUN (Irreligion → No religion), GRC (no disputed terms), GER (Irreligion → No religion), GEO (no disputed terms), FRA (Irreligion → No religion). Still lots to go, but I need a break. Please, help with Belarus and Bulgaria. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 12:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC) I've checked the contributions of editors, whose opening statements are missing: all of them were active after receiving the notification, so there is no sense in waiting for their comments to come. If nobody disagrees, I'll close this case as "resolved". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
So, I just need help with Belarus, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal (sources???), Slovakia (confusing and misleading) and Slovenia (it's either atheo-vandalized or unreferenced). 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
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Provisional Irish Republican Army
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | SonofSetanta appears to be edit warring for his changes at present. Since only those advocating for the change have taken part in the DRN (with non-policy based arguments as well), this is going nowhere. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:38, 13 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The issue is the claiming of the name Óglaigh na hÉireann as the official Irish Gaelic name for the Provisional IRA. My contention, and that of others, is that the name Óglaigh na hÉireann is the official and legal title (in Irish) of the Irish Defence Forces, a state body. This is clearly indicated on their homepage at http://www.military.ie/. A search for Óglaigh na hÉireann on the Wiki confirms my assertion (and that of others) and also that various terrorist organisations have styled themselves as Óglaigh na hÉireann throughout the years. I do not dispute that the Provisional IRA claimed this name as their own and believe it should be included in the article and any other articles concerning Irish terrorist groupings, that this is the case, that they "styled themselves" as Óglaigh na hÉireann. I also believe that the true Irish translation " IRA Sealadach" should be used as the Irish Gaelic translation on all pages concerning the Provisional IRA. This is not being accepted by other editors. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I, and others, have made all editors aware through the talk page what the facts are and have tried to include the information in the article. This has sparked an edit war with several opposing editors. How do you think we can help? Dispute resolution can have some experienced and uninvolved editors review the two schools of thought and make a ruling on it which can then be treated as the concensus. Opening comments byFergusM1970It seems clear that, as the name is used by PIRA, it needs to be mentioned in the article. However its present place does give it undue prominence; they're certainly not called that in Ireland, where the term is used to refer to the Irish Defence Forces and PIRA is in any case banned, and in the UK they're always referred to as PIRA or just the IRA. My suggestion would be to remove it from its current location and add an explanation of its use by PIRA elsewhere in the article.--FergusM1970Wikipedia policies and procedures should be interpreted with common sense to achieve the purpose of the policy, or help dispute resolution. 18:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Provisional Irish Republican Army discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi! I am a dispute resolution volunteer. Before I begin, I want to make sure you understand that this process is non-binding; I can't make anyone do anything. But it seems to me that there is already a compromise solution in your opening statements and in the lede of the article. The current opening sentence says this:
And the current last sentence of the first paragraph says this:
It seems to me that if "Óglaigh na hÉireann" translates as "The Irish Volunteers," not the "Irish Republican Army," then the use in the lead sentence is misleading. But you could by all means keep it in the other sentence I copied over, the last sentence of the lead paragraph. Thoughts? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Can one of the involved users fill in all involved users into "Users involved". Currently it just contains one user. I notice that discussions only began on the talk pages yesterday; 1 day seems far too early to bring the issue to DRN. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2012 (UTC) I have now included the names of the other (proposed) participants. My contention is this: the usage of this name can be found explained at Óglaigh na hÉireann. It is absolutely clear that most Irish armed groupings, especially those claiming the name IRA (in some shape or another) claim to be the only Óglaigh na hÉireann. This is the invention of tradition in true Irish style. (see Hobsbawm and Ranger, The Invention of Tradition, 1983, Cambridge University Press). The more support a particular grouping gets the more likely they are to claim the name, however: the Government of Ireland claim it for their armed forces and have done since the inception of an independent political process in Ireland. (c1916) (1st Dail for interested onlookers). It is my firm belief that the Provisional IRA article should reflect all of this and explain that their constitution claimed the name Óglaigh na hÉireann although it is not the translation for their working title in English. Explain to the reader WHY they chose this name and give links to the organisations who claim it now that the Provisional IRA is defunct. My firm opinion is that we should not allow "Invention of History" to become fact on Wikipedia and that the information we supply to readers should be accurate to degree level. In support of this I would ask participants to do a google search on Óglaigh na hÉireann and see how many pages they have to go through before finding a reference to the Provisional IRA. I ask also that the comments here [[3]] be noted. The quotes are by Martin McGuinness, the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein (formerly Provisional Sinn Feinn). They were the political arm of the Republican Movement and McGuinness himself is a former senior member of the Provisional IRA Army Council. Even he says that PIRA only "styled" themselves as Óglaigh na hÉireann and the only true holder of the name is the Irish Defence Forces (he uses the words "Irish Army"). You have it from me, you have it from the Wiki's own articles, you have it from Martin McGuinness. I put it to the discussion that the only way forward is to clarify the usage and stop trying to make it look as if it was an official, recognised title. It never was. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC) PS: @Wolfie - the discussion on the talk page has been ongoing since 19th July. Not just in the last two days. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I also object, saying that Óglaigh na hÉireann is an Irish translation of PIRA is just factually incorrect. It is an indirect translation for IRA, and that is why the provos claim it. Members of this paramilitary consider themselves the original IRA and not a split away group, just as the CIRA and RIRA do. Maybe the opening sentence should read "commonly referred to as Oglaigh na hEireann by members". Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S) (talk) 14:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC) Both the RIRA and CIRA articles on wikipedia read "styling themselves as Oglaigh na hEireann", why should the Provisionals be any different from other IRA split away groups? Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S) (talk) 14:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC) I also noticed that the RIRA article, along with it's opening sentence, has "Oglaigh na hEireann" printed in brackets directly underneath "Real Irish Republican Army" in the infobox, without saying it's an Irish translation. Maybe we could do this with the PIRA page? Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S) (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
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The Zeitgeist Movement
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | Looks resolved to me. (Steve Zhang) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Disagreement on whether links should be included in the 'See also' section of the TZM article. (a) Private property, social equality, resource allocation, wage labor and profit motive are phrases that are already present in the article. In the past, I've converted these phrases to links in the body of the TZM article, but my edits were reverted with the explanation that these created a wp:LINKFARM. So I'm including them instead in 'See also' per wp:see also. Buckminster Fuller, Ignaz Semmelweis, Wright brothers and Nicola Tesla are discussed in the TheMarker article on TZM. Buckminster Fuller is also the subject of a recent TZM radio program, and Ignaz Semmelweis, Wright brothers and Nicola Tesla are also the subjects of several lectures by Ben McLeish, a TZM spokesperson. Imagine (song) and Carl Sagan are discussed in the New York Times article, as well as in Zeitgeist: The Movie. (b) I'll be happy to provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent or when the meaning of the term may not be generally known. (c) See this comment by a this comment by a WP editor. (e) Imagine (song) is also discussed in Donavan's performance in the 2011 Zeitgeist Media Festival. Carl Sagan is also discussed by Peter Joseph in his performance. (The translation of the TheMarker article is here (and the same translation but in an easier-to-read format here, at the bottom of the page.) Have you tried to resolve this previously? Discussion on talk page, in the See-also section on the talk page How do you think we can help? Editors' views on whether these links satisfy or violate wp: See also are solicited. Thank you. Opening comments by YoureallycanI will open with the detail from the guideline and my comments from the talkpage - Youreallycan 17:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
The Zeitgeist Movement discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. There's a ArbCom case requested agaist Youreallycan. I suggest going there. So I will be closing this request and making a note of it at ArbCom. ~~Ebe123
Are you sure that "refuses to listen" and "nothing more than disruption" are accurate? I don't see him edit warring to re-include the content, and while he seems rather set in his opinion, he's discussing it with me right now on the article's Talk page. Maybe some people are simply reacting kind of strongly here? -- Avanu (talk) 22:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
As has already been noted, OpenFuture, this is not a forum for discussing user conduct, so please stop. And, Avanu, please don't compound the problem by responding. Respect the guidelines of this forum going forward thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
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Cold Fusion
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | DRN is not a place to discuss disputes that are already under discussion on other forums Guy Macon (talk) 07:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Yes. Went to the page "Cold Fusion". Under the section "Popular Culture" ( at the bottom of the page) I wrote : " In the 2010 film Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps, the Jake Moore character (played by Shia LaBeouf) attempts to find funding for an energy company that plans to utilize lasers focused on a small target, thereby releasing enormous amounts of energy, a process that bears similarity to the idea of Cold Fusion. " This editing was removed twice. Why? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the information, it is extremely accurate, and the context is very accurate. So why was it removed? Have you tried to resolve this previously?
How do you think we can help?
Opening comments by BinksternetThis matter is not important enough for DRN examination. Pantothenic has made two basic errors: his text talks about hot fusion, not cold fusion, and the notional connection between a fictional plot and any kind of actual science is not established by cited sources—it is instead a personal observation. The matter is being handled sufficiently well at Talk:Cold fusion. No need for action here. Binksternet (talk) 16:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Opening comments byPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Cold Fusion discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi! I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. I noticed that some part of this case have not been filled out. There is only one name listed and the "Have you tried to resolve this previously?" and "How do you think we can help?" sections are blank. Could you please go back and correct these problems before we proceed? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 17:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC) Hi! This is Pantothenic. The reason those fields were not filled out is because their was no space in which to fill them out. Meaning, there was no blank field. After scrolling the cursor around the headings, and elsewhere, I found no field of any kind in which to input data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pantothenic (talk • contribs) 23:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
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User_talk:Complainer, Felice_Bauer
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Please discuss the content disputes on the editor's talk page and bring up the conduct concerns at AN/I or WQA. Electric Catfish 21:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview User Br'er_Rabbit, apparently offended at the idea that I deleted my own edit in a minor discussion with another (uninvolved) user, repeatedly vandalized my talk page with name calling and some kind of fake proposal to keep me from applying common sense policies in dealing with my own talk page. I am fairly indifferent to this; however, Br'er_Rabbit resorted to stalking and reverted an edit to Felice Bauer in spite of being explained that the text removed it is both incorrect and badly written. Assuming good faith, I am forced NOT to assume that this is an attempt at making me violate the 3RV policy; it is, however vandalism. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Applied WP:NOR, deleted vandalizing edit. The confrontational nature of the edits prevented me from discussing them with the other party involved, who seems to be very angry for some reason unknown to me. I have had no dealing with him before, neither on wikipedia or otherwise, and the nature of his hostility is unknown to me. How do you think we can help? Reprimand Br'er_Rabbit; failing that, block him and his (official) sockpuppets from editing my pagesfrom editing my pages. Reinstate the edit on Felice_Bauer (which I am prevented from doing by the 3RV rule). Suggest forum for inexperienced editors where Br'er_Rabbit can be read about the nature of trolling and the application of WP:NOR. Opening comments by Br'er_RabbitPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. User_talk:Complainer, Felice_Bauer discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Resolved out of DRN (see User talk:72.89.35.142#Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport (Gassim, ELQ) for details). |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview User 72.89.35.142 adds incorrect info to airport articles, for which they have been repeatedly warned on their talk page. In the present case, User:AlanM1 edited the list of destinations at Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport to correct it back to researched and cited sources, noting the details on the article talk page and those of the involved users. The IP user wasted no time in re-adding a non-existent destination, with no edit summary, and writing nothing in response on either talk page. Have you tried to resolve this previously? (As described in overview,) posted to both article and user talk pages. How do you think we can help?
Opening comments by 72.89.35.142Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. I would like for the IP to respond, but the chances of that are low, due to the fact the user does not have a userpage which is immediately accessible and because the IP can hop easily. If this goes stagnant I would opt for page protection. Removing sourced information is typically a bad thing when you replace it with nothing and never respond. But let's give this a chance. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
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Jason Leopold
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Conduct, not content dispute, see closing note at bottom. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I've been adding some new info to one of the articles titled Jason Leopold and I also left some comments on the talk page. A user named Bonewah has been scrubbing my stuff and then saying I am banned, which isn't true. The stuff I added is legitimate and follows all Wikipedia guidelines. Please check it out. This is an article that is always biased and no one tries to add new stuff and there's a lot of new stuff on the internet that will make this more balanced. Why isn't the new stuff being used if the article has so many watchers? Shouldn't new stuff be included? Isn't that what makes the article current? I added a new section on the FOIA lawsuit and please review it cause I think that one is important for the article. Here's the section on the FOIA I added. Can someone tell me if they think there's anything wrong with it?
Have you tried to resolve this previously? I left info on the talk page that's not being addressed. How do you think we can help? allowing the new info to stand and telling Bonewah that I am allowed to make additions and edits cuz I am following the rules and that I'm not banned. Opening comments by BonewahPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Jason Leopold discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Closing Note: I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. It appears to me that this is not, at root, a content dispute. Bonewah appears to be taking a hard position that RavenThePackIsBack is a sockpuppet of a topic-banned user (probably Jimmy McDaniels) and removing Raven's edits for that reason only. Removal of a banned editor's edits via puppetry, for no other reason than the fact that they are banned, is a legitimate action but such removals and any controversy over such removals is a conduct matter, not a content matter. I would suggest that Bonewah should probably make a ban evasion report at Sockpuppet Investigations before continuing to revert Raven's edits, but should Bonewah not care to do so, or should Raven care to take this matter further at this time, Raven should report Bonewah's action to the Administrators' Noticeboard for investigation. I'm not saying that Bonewah is wrong or right, but one of those forums, not DRN, is the right place for this issue. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
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Aliya Mustafina
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Discussion stalled, filing editor passed to edit warring (1, 2, 3 and 4). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I am bringing up the fact that the Olympic Gold Medalist 2012 Aliya Mustafina is Tatar. I have tried to reflect this in the starting line of the article but faced continuous reverting. I have supplied the links, explaining the notability of this achievement for Tatars, given the fact that very few Tatars are/were Olympic Champions. I have also appealed to the fact that virtually all athletes have their ethnicity/background mentioned in the first line. In addition, I have said that Tatarstan is a sovereign entity with own constitution and president. Somebody is trying to deprive her of her Tatar identity which is clearly a breach of rights. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have discussed the matter on user's talk page, explaining the importance and asking not to change it. I have also supplied the links (references) of notability of here being a Tatar. How do you think we can help? A person should never be deprived of his/her identity, whatever it is. You can protect the right to state the Tatar identity in the front line. Best Regards. Opening comments by MbinebriWP:OPENPARA specifies that ethnicity should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. JackofDiamonds has not established this relevance and the mainstream media has not made Mustafina's ethnicity a point of emphasis. Instead, JackofDiamonds uses the backwards argument that her ethnicity is important because of her career achievements and that there are - supposedly - few other Tatar Olympic medalists. Unless the media has emphasized this, it's just original research and a point of view. Mbinebri talk ← 22:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Aliya Mustafina discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Wherever these examples come from, they go against unrelated policy and guideline. Another Wikipedia policy — Wikipedia:Consensus — specifically discourage the attempts to use local consensus against the global one. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Just to note: this is the essence of the problem — consensus is to report nationality, which is particularly important in sports, as the awards are normally attributed to the countries as much as to the sportspeople themselves. But they are not attributed to ethnicities: nobody states "Tatars won the medal", just "Aliya Mustafina won the medal" or "Russia won 3 medals". The ethnicity of Mustafina may be discussed in the article, if there is enough discussion of her ethnicity in reliable sources, which makes this information worth notice; otherwise her ethnicity is just not relevant, as Wikipedia is not a soapbox for nationalist debates. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 11:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
(talk) 22:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Discussion of opening comments by MbinebriComment below was moved from Opening comments by Mbinebri, as it's not an opening comment by Mbinebri. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
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Embargo Act of 1807
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | 36hourblock has not engaged here, so there's noting we can do. Consensus exists to remove the inflamitory language. Hasteur (talk) 12:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview User:AWhiteC and User:36hourblock are currently in a content dispute over the neutrality of 36hourblock's recent edits on Embargo Act of 1807. A Third Opinion was requested, which brought User:So God created Manchester, a third party editor, into the dispute. The contested wording includes the following sentences:
The dispute is over whether this is acceptable per Wikipedia's policy on Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch guideline. No agreement or consensus has been reached.
How do you think we can help? I'm bringing this dispute to a wider audience, and hoping that input from other editors can help to resolve the dispute. Opening comments by AWhiteCI thought parts of the the article had a non-encyclopedic tone. I later found out that this was the result of these edits by 36hourblock. I have suggested changes on the talk page here (see 13 August 2012). In these changes, I tried to leave the meaning the same whilst removing some unnecessary and non-encyclopediac wording. AWhiteC (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by 36hourblockPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Opening comments by So God created ManchesterI was brought into the dispute via a Third Opinion request. My position is that word choices like "flagrant" and "particularly egregious" are not impartial and are discouraged by Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The wording is not encyclopedic in tone, it introduces bias into the article, and qualifies as editorializing. There are more impartial ways of expressing the same concepts by using language that is more direct and concise. The descriptions can be used if they're in quotations and attributed to an author, but this isn't the case.--SGCM (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Embargo Act of 1807 discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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South Korea
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | The other party of the dispute has not commented on the talk page, of which is a requirement here and that this is not a "dispute" but alleged fake information. I suggest to be bold, or to discuss on Talk:Comfort women or again at Talk:South Korea. ~~Ebe123~~ on the go! 14:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview more than 100,000 Koreans were forced to serve in the Imperial Japanese Army.[31][32] Korean women were forced to the war front to serve the Imperial Japanese Army as sexual slaves, called comfort women Have you tried to resolve this previously? That person has the authority to edit fairly. How do you think we can help? Recognize the fact that correct. Opening comments by MaterialscientistPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Opening comments by William AveryPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. South Korea discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi, I'm Ebe123, an volunteer at DRN, of which is here. I will close this as the other party of the dispute has not commented on the talk page, of which is a requirement here and that this is not a "dispute" but alleged fake information. I suggest to be bold, or to discuss on Talk:Comfort women or again at Talk:South Korea. ~~Ebe123~~ on the go! 14:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
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The Citadel
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Deferred to WP:COIN (not a content dispute). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:48, 18 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview request that editor Buffs be removed from any further editing of page, he has a clear conflict of interest as a Texas A/M graduate and continually has deleted references that conflict with claims made by his school particularly involving number of military officers commissioned. Also makes unfounded claims of weaseling and disputes obvious source information. Have you tried to resolve this previously? contact via talk page for article How do you think we can help? Buffs must be removed because he has a clear conflict of interest and appears intent on challenging whatever is in the article even when properly referenced. It is clearly not fair or appropriate to have an editor involved in an article when that person has some connection that could cause a potential dispute due to conflict of interest. Opening comments by OcalaPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. wiki article on The Citadel discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and unfortunately I have to reject this case, as the dispute you filed is not a content dispute. Please make yourself familiar with WP:COI and, if you believe this is necessary, use WP:COIN. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:48, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
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Slavonia
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Closing, one editor has noted they will be absent for an extended period of time. (Steve Zhang) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Basically, User:DIREKTOR persistently removes sourced material and inserts original research based on their beliefs as indicated in the talk page (e.g. on colour of coat of arms of Slavoina "Honestly I think Šutej just used the lighter shade of blue for every other segment of the crown so as to avoid having them all mesh together (there's no border between them)." despite sources defining the colour, denying the region is a geographic region, inserting WP:OR flag of the region (when challenged for a source of the flag dismissing the challenge saying "I wonder how anyone could possibly source "unofficial use" or lack thereof"). An example of removal of sourced material is evident in removal of the "Eastern Croatia" term from the article. All my concerns were in effect dismissed as a case of WP:OWN, although I have no sense of ownership of articles - for example Croatian War of Independence was substantially rewritten after I nominated it for GA and I welcome the new changes and have even discussed and proposed new development of the article. Prior to this dispute, all claims in the article were properly supported by sources as the article passed GA review on 19 June. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I tried discussing the issues directly with the other editor in dispute How do you think we can help? I hope to get some assistance in preserving sourced material, and in removal of original research/POV and other unsupported claims from the article. Opening comments by DIREKTORPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Um... actually, the above is just plain untrue. And imo that's kind of obvious from my edits [4], whereby I reword unsourced text to render it more in accordance with the cited source (Frucht 2004). Maybe there's some mystery source that says Slavonia is a "geographic region", certainly Tomboe talks about some "sources" I'm apparently in a conflict with - but he did not point out any sources that actually support him, nor is there a single ref in the entire paragraph (I'm talking about the lead here, the entire lead is unsourced). The main problem, as I've attempted to explain to the best of my ability on Talk:Central Croatia is Tomboe's completely OR regionalization of Croatia that he's implemented. With all due respect for his excellent expansion of these articles, the user is apparently confused with regard to what these regions are, that is to say, how they're defined. He's confused terrain-defined, purely geographic regions like Mountainous Croatia with historical/cultural regions like Slavonia, and has created such a mess its hard even to explain, people just look at how well-written the articles are and assume the very basic organization can't possibly be something the guy just thought of. Basically he's copy-pasted verbatim the infobox I'd written on the Dalmatia article, misunderstood the meaning of "geographic region" and created his own, completely unsourced system of Croatin regions.. As for the coat of arms & flag, Tomboe insists I accept the colour scheme on the right-most segment of the crown of the File:Coat of arms of Croatia.svg as the "official coat of arms of Slavonia". However, as I've pointed out, that's the coat of arms of the Republic of Croatia, not of Slavonia, and such interpretations are again OR. There is no official coat of arms of Slavonia defined by Croatian law. Instead I've looked at what the colour scheme was on actual coats of arms of Slavonia, and found that they use a darker blue, while the CoA of the Republic of Croatia (from 1990) probably uses baby blue on every other segment of the crown so as to avoid using the same colour in every one. Oh yes, its a silly dispute :). About as silly as it gets.. -- Director (talk) 09:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC) Talk:Slavonia discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Question to parties: when was the coat of arms of Slavonia in separate use (outside the coat of arms of Croatia)? Are there any descriptions of this coat of arms from the period when it was used as such? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC) CommentNon volunteer comment' If i read correctly you said "User:DIREKTOR persistently removes sourced material and original research based on their beliefs" the sourced material should be discussed on the talk page, but if there removing original research i cant see why there is problem, everything has to be wp:verifiable with 3rd party [[wp:rs}}--Andrewcrawford (talk - contrib) 18:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Question for parties - Is this an accurate recapitulation: There is no official Slavonia COA, but there is an implicit/unofficial one that can be derived from the rightmost portion of the Croatian COA; and both parties agree that it is okay to use the shape (but not colors) of the implicit/unofficial one in the article (although Tomobe says it is official). The main question remaining is what shade of blue to use: Tomobe suggests using the light blue used in the Croatian COA, but Direktor wants to use a darker blue. The light blue correlates with the shade used on the Croatian COA, but Direktor says that is just an artifact of the need to get contrast between the five adjacent blue regions; Direktor says that darker blue is correct because historical Slavonia (family?) COAs use darker blue. Because there is no clearly official Slavonia COA, it is impossible to find sources which definitively state the correct colors. Thus some judgement is needed to determine which blue is best. Is that all correct? --Noleander (talk) 12:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Anyway folks, I may have to unfortunately go on an extended wikibreak. No choice, lots of work to catch-up with. Don't know what happens next here but I sure hope everything I tried to do isn't instantly reverted. I'll be back in a couple weeks. -- Director (talk) 22:55, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
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Control (2007 film)
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | Resolved. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:40, 19 August 2012 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview A dispute over the temperory, exploratory inclusion of a link from an article to a disambiguation page. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Asked for a 3d opinion. How do you think we can help? Suggest a compromise. Opening comments by --IllaZillaHmm, Gloryshookthiswater neglected to inform me she'd started this discussion. I only discovered it by checking her contribs. Anyway, I'm not sure why there's an issue here. Basically, Gloryshookthiswater wants to place a hatnote on Control (2007 film) directing to the control disambiguation page. Her reasoning has something to do with Google searches, and she appears to be trying to run a pageview experiment (see discussion here). Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Usage guidelines say of hatnotes:
I reverted her a few times based on that, and she continued to revert back. I've read her arguments and I think she's essentially exaggerating a perceived issue with Google that isn't Wikipedia's concern, and that this is a solution in search of a problem. The heart of her argument seems to speak to WP:DAB more generally, so I've asked her several times to take it to WT:DAB. Instead she's insisting on using this particular article as some sort of test case or experiment, and is going to great lengths (WP:3O and now DRN) to do so. --IllaZilla (talk) 22:33, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Control (2007 film) discussionNote from dispute resolution volunteer: the talk page discussion of this dispute appears to be at User talk:Gloryshookthiswater#Control (2007 film) --Guy Macon (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Could I ask parties (this mostly refers to Gloryshookthiswater) to explain, how the problem of disambiguating this particular page differs from disambiguation on Wikipedia in general? That is: is there something in this dispute, which would not be true for any other disambiguated article? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:53, 18 August 2012 (UTC) A hatnote, per our current guidelines, is not considered necessary for pages that have already been disambiguated. A Google search for control shows the Scientific control article as the third result, Control (2007 film) as the fourth result, and the disambiguation page as the fifth result. As the title indicates, there's no ambiguity at all that the Control (2007 film) result on Google is about the film. Consensus can change and guidelines can be revised, but that discussion should take place on Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation. --SGCM (talk) 08:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC) I ask that you view the screenshot which I took of what I and many other see on google. Yes I am trying to find out if the problem is real or not, all I'm asking for is one week stay of deletion to determine whether it is, at that point you can delete the link. This is not an unreasonable request and the "don't do your experiment on my article" is unhelpful since the particular google problem is haphazardly spread and other wikipedians are likely to be just as resistant. I am just trying to do something good for Wikipedia. Please just give me chance.Gloryshookthiswater (talk) 09:07, 19 August 2012 (UTC) Ok that's fine. Since I asked for comment and consensus is against my view point I will remove the link and accept the decision. Gloryshookthiswater (talk) 09:17, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
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Wineville Chicken Coop Murders / The Boy Who Came Forward
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | No closing comments were detected |
| Closed discussion |
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I have attempted to contact the editor on the Wineville Chicken Coop Murder talk page, as well as the editors own talk page (with no response). I have asked for the editor to provide historical references regarding the claims made by the editor (which disagree completely with the; LAPD investigation of the case, the testimony given at the sentencing hearing, as well as the trial for Gordon Northcott in 1928, and the legal findings rendered by the State of California). All 3 boys were murdered and none of them escaped (as the editor suggests). Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Editor has made approximately 30 edits in the past several days in the section "The Boy Who Came Forward", inserting names and dates that have no historical verification and fly in the face of the legal findings as rendered by the State of California in 1928. A man was executed and his mother served 12 years in prison given the evidence provided. The editor is suggesting that the State of California was wrong in their findings through the edits being inserted. If the editor has found new evidenciary matters regarding case, those who follow the case as well as the Riverside Historical Society would be delighted to learn of this new historical find by the editor. "On February 27, 1935, David Clay, along with his parents, John and Leanne Clay" (no historical proof, asking for proof from editor).......... "about Walter's and the two Winslow brothers' escape from the ranch". (Exact opposite of the findings of the State of California)......"and he went missing for seven years by not telling anyone what happened and stayed with another family and telling them he is an orphan because he was afraid he'd get in trouble" (Again, this claim flies in the face of the police investigation and the findings of the State of California, needs historical references provided).............Unfortunately, the editors claims match what was put forward in the film Changeling, but the film was not a documentary regarding the historical facts of the findings by the State of California. This editor most likely is attempting to change the page by incorrectly asserting that the film represented the gospel truth about the facts of the Wineville Chicken Coop Murders, but reality is that the truth is very different than the film. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have left a message on the editor's talk page with no reply. I am asking to contact an administrator to support and assist in removal of non-documented edits. I do not want to start an edit war. I could go in and remove the edits myself, but it will only lead to a back and forth, so I need support in the removal of the unfounded edits. How do you think we can help? Contact the editor and warn them to provide support information for their claims. Warn them that continued re-editing without providing support documentation, could result in consequences to their ability to further post edits in the future. Remind the editor that they cannot simply insert their own personal opinions, but rather, need to be able to provide support documentation to back up their edits. Opening comments by 76.21.120.70Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Wineville Chicken Coop Murders discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:HA Schult
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | Looks like the purpose of this thread has been served - nuances to be hashed out on the talk page. (SZ) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is a content dispute on the German performance artist, HA Schult. See Talk:HA Schult One editor frequently removes what another editor has written, although the latter claims that all was well sourced. Here are some diffs: [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] Have you tried to resolve this previously? Asking for a third opinion How do you think we can help? Are the sources I have cited reliable enough according to Wikipedia's policies? For a list of these sources, see Talk:HA Schult. Opening comments by Rhode Island RedThe trigger on DR was pulled too early in this case, as the other editor involved in this dispute, Wikiwiserick, only filed a 3rd opinion request yesterday [13] and then didn’t wait for the reply before coming to DR. Nonetheless, since we're here already... One of the flaws that I noticed when I started working on the article was that it relied predominantly on 1 source – an out of print work in German from 1978 – I added a tag to signify this problem and explained it clearly to Wikiwiserick.[14][15][16] Of the remaining sources cited, many were also in German and not verifiable online. That doesn’t necessarily preclude their use, but it’s certainly not ideal, especially given that the article had elements of WP:PUFF and WP:SELFPROMOTE, which I explained [17] to Wikiwiserick, the creator of the article. This scenario is a problem for verification, so I advised the editor to rely more on sources in English, since this is English rather than German WP. There was a also a problem with a few lofty statements about the artist’s significance, which were allegedly based on quotes taken from unverifiable German sources and personally translated into English by Wikiwiserick. That’s not ideal with respect to WP:REDFLAG and WP:FRINGE, not to mention WP translation guidelines. I see few if any specific details as to why Wikiwiserick objects to the 7 edits highlighted above. I included edit summaries that explain the rationale and relevant WP policies, but those issues were essentially ignored. The editor seems to be ignoring context and focusing on whether the sources in question are WP:RS on their surface, but that’s not the issue, as a source can be WP:RS in one context but not another, depending on the statement in question. After reviewing the 7 edits highlighted above, 5 out of 7 are straightforward and very easily justifiable. Any issues with those or the other edits should have been addressed on the talk page, but Wikiwiserick bypassed the opportunity to explain his specific objections there, choosing instead to request a third opinion, and then without waiting for the reply, escalate this to DR. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Talk:HA Schult discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi, I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this quest. While both opening comments aren't present, I'm going to address the sources THEMSELVES. As some are so-so and others are a no-no and are a core matter of this dispute.
When I search for images, I get a load of them, when I search for source, a lot more. Here are some ones that are in English and make mentions that essentially prove his roving trash people tour in a nice summary. [After debuting in Xanten, Germany, in 1996 the entire armada of "Trash People has tweaked the public's sensibilities in settings as varied as the Great Wall of China, Egypt's Pyramids at Giza, Moscow's Red Square and the Matterhorn in the Swiss Alps. Later this year the immobile but moving display will spread its humorous and reflective reduce, reuse and recycle message in New York City and Antarctica." [19] "The "Trash People," by German artist HA Schult, get around. The six-foot-tall figures made out of old computers, soda cans, license plates and other refuse have stood at the Pyramids at Giza, in Moscow's Red Square and on the Great Wall of China. Now, 50 of them are lined up in the courtyard at National Geographic." From Throwaway Art: Don't Trash It." The Washington Post. Washingtonpost Newsweek Interactive. 2008. Retrieved August 15, 2012 from HighBeam Research: [20] Some do exist. And these sources are interesting, but I bet better ones could be found. Since this is involved in a dispute, the strongest sources are the best. Ones like the Washington Post are good. As well as most books. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Per Rhode Island Red's comments above, it seems that this dispute developed from a WP:NONENG and WP:RS to a WP:NPOV one. His concern, based from I can gather reading this page and the talk, is that the article's tone is too promotional, and argues that it exaggerates the claims of the sources, which are difficult to verify. So it's not just a dispute over verification, but also a dispute over neutrality. I think the following can be done to improve the article, and resolve the dipsute with Wikiwiserick:
As ChrisGualtieri has indicated, there are plenty of sources on the subject, and the subject is clearly notable, so the task shouldn't be difficult.--SGCM (talk) 17:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Here are some further sources:
Could these sources be used for improving the Wikipedia article? Any suggestions? Wikiwiserick (talk) 19:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
As the other Spanish source does not primarily deal with Schult's "trash people", I would agree with Rhode Island Red not to list it in the "Further reading" section. In the meantime, I did some further research on the Internet and have now found a source including some critical remarks on Schult. However, it is not written in English. Therefore, I have written an English summary for the Wikipedia page:
Would you agree to include this passage, perhaps in a modified form, in the Wikipedia article on Schult? Furthermore, I would like to reinclude the following paragraph, as I have now found the original source, which contains both German and English texts:
Any comments or suggestions? Wikiwiserick (talk) 00:11, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I would like to reinclude a reference to the following source, perhaps in a "Bibliography" section:
Furthermore, a reference to this academic source may be included in the article. It states on p. 9 that Schult laid out the large sum of four million marks for the exhibition of his "trash people" on the "five-thousand-year-old Chinese symbol of the Great Wall." Wikiwiserick (talk) 13:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I think it would be more helpful, Rhode Island Red, if you would search the Internet for further sources that could be used for improving the article, instead of constantly questioning the importance of Schult on other Wikipedia pages. See [21] [22] [23]. You have caused bias to the judgement of other Wikipedians, as this thread shows. Today, you have even removed my contributions from other Wikipedia pages. See [24] [25]. This behavior is unacceptable to me. I did a lot of research. To my mind, Rhode Island Red is not willing to cooperate here. Perhaps somebody else can find additional sources that may be cited in the Schult article. Wikiwiserick (talk) 20:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
@Wikiwiserick - Some of the sources above are marginal: PhD theses, web sites, etc. Marginal sources can sometimes be used if the subject is minor, and there are no alternatives; but the art community is generally very well documented. I realize that this artist is not famous, so finding traditional hardbound book sources is unlikely. But it would help if you could provide sources such as mainstream newspapers, or mainstream journals. For example: can you provide some quotes about the artist from articles in major German newspapers or journals? --Noleander (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I have found another source including texts written in English: a documentation of Schult’s "Arctic People". See HA Schult: Art is Life. This means that his "Trash People" were not transported to the Antarctica, as was announced in 2008, but instead to the Arctic region. I didn't know before. So it was O.K. to remove the reference to the Antarctica from the Wikipedia article, but a reference to the Arctic region may now be added. The project was supported by Dr Annette Schavan, Federal Minister of Education and Research, Germany, the Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research, The State Russian Museum, St. Petersburg, and several other institutes and organizations. What is of much importance is that the same source contains illustrations of most performances by Schult, among them photographs of his "Hotel Europe" (1999), showing Schult’s 130 oversized portraits of celebrities, and his Berlin "LoveLetters Building" (2001), for which he was compared with Christo. The source also includes the following text by Peter Weibel on Schult:
Parts of this text may be used for improving the Wikipedia article. Any further suggestions? Wikiwiserick (talk) 13:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Here are some further publications:
All of these sources are not self-published. They show that Schult had many exhibitions in well-known German art museums from the 1970s on. Therefore, he cannot be called a minor figure in the art of the twentieth century. Wikiwiserick (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC) There are now two further content disputes in which Rhode Island Red is also deeply involved: As I am here to improve some Wikipedia articles dealing with German art, willing to include valuable additional content and always looking for reliable sources, I do not understand what is going on here. It is really a waste of time. I'll have a break. Wikiwiserick (talk) 20:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
It seems that I am the only person who is frequently looking for valuable sources on Schult, among them books, museum catalogs, articles in art journals etc. However, Rhode Island Red does not accept most of these reliable sources. Who is able to solve this problem? Wikiwiserick (talk) 13:10, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Some additional sources:
The latter article includes the following remark, which may be used for the Wikipedia article: "Rosa Piqueras, spokeswoman for the environmental project, said the idea was to show something a little different from the ideal destinations touted by the tourism industry. 'We wanted to show what our holidays could become if we don't clean our beaches,' she said. About 30-40 percent of the objects adorning the hotel were picked up from beaches in Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The dirtiest, said Piqueras, were the beaches in southern Italy." Wikiwiserick (talk) 13:06, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
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