Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zamir Jaffri Cricket Stadium

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 10:10, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Zamir Jaffri Cricket Stadium[edit]

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Zamir Jaffri Cricket Stadium (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Cricket ground with no coverage in reliable sources. Not a ground which hosts international or domestic cricket events. Complete failure of WP:GNG. At best, it is a ground used for local club matches which aren't notable for WP. Störm (talk) 03:13, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 06:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete One of the refs does not even mention the ground, the other is a database listing on cricketarchive and only games it lists are local ones. No indications that any major matches have been played here, or that it passes GNG. Spike 'em (talk) 09:18, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Nothing found in my WP:BEFORE except blog-entires. Fails WP:GNG. FOARP (talk) 13:02, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Per nom. StickyWicket (talk) 15:09, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 20:39, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A regional stadium frequently in the news for hosting large political rallies, including led by the current Prime Minister of Pakistan.[1], [2], [3] and, in one case, a rally in which nine people were injured by police bullets.[4]. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:54, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not about the stadium. Rallies held, okay, but why stadium is important? Störm (talk) 06:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought that the fact that the now Prime Minister of Pakistan held large political rallies at the stadium might make one stop for a moment and consider whether their denial of the stadium's notability might be just a little bit anglocentric. Would a large cricket stadium in any city in the Western world really not meet the GNG? Of course not. Why would the answer in Pakistan be any different. And, of course, recourse to Urdu sources, which should have been done before nominating for deletion, confirms this answer and confirms that deleting this article would be patently absurd. For example, this article is entirely about the stadium and its dilapidated condition. Just run it through google translate and see. --Mkativerata (talk) 08:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A stadium need not host national events to be notable, it just must pass WP:GNG/WP:NBUILD. There are a number of articles in English about rallies which have been held in the stadium without being about the stadium specifically, and I can't do a local language search, but I imagine there would have to be local sources per WP:NEXIST, especially because the government specifically updated the stadium. Also, since it's foreign, the stadium appears as Jafri Stadium, Zamir Jafri Stadium, Syed Zamir Jaffri Stadium, et cetera. SportingFlyer T·C 21:04, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Explain, how it meets WP:GNG? Don't use loose claims that it would meet if we got local sources. You have to bring them here to support your claims. Störm (talk) 06:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It has a number of passing mentions in English without any specific "ground construction in Jherum," and from the photos the stadium was clearly sponsored either by the cricket board or by the local government. From the English sources alone you can patch together a decent stub. I can't search in Punjabi or Urdu as I don't know either of these languages, all I have is what's online in English, but given the stadium is used for tournaments by the Pakistani cricket board I would assume there's online and offline sources in both of these languages. SportingFlyer T·C 16:32, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If my reading of WP:CRIN is correct then I would be inclined to head towards very strong keep. This is based on:

Re a venue (aka ground), WP:CRIC has agreed that its regular usage by a notable club ensures its own notability per se. Beyond a purely cricketing outlook, a venue is a recognised named site with a fixed geographic location and established community associations of a permanent nature which themselves ensure notability

the second sentence of which suggests to me that any ground used by any community group whatsoever is considered notable by WP:CRIN standards. I find this odd, bizarre and so on, but I don't see how it means anything different to that.
I don't particularly agree that this reading is desirable or workable to works in any way to determine what is or isn't notable - it seems bizarre that my local cricket club's ground is, by definition, notable when there are no independent sources on it.
I've just suggested on two other AfD that WP:CRIN needs a total rewrite in some areas at least. This does nothing to suggest otherwise to me. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:27, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Blue Square Thing: I'd argue WP:CRIN has nothing to do with buildings (see WP:NBUILD, but the test is also "regular usage" by a "notable club" as opposed to "any community group whatsoever," so I'm not too fussed. SportingFlyer T·C 16:32, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer: - I was looking at the second sentence from he quote which seems to suggest notability per se. Of course, I think that's silly, but there you are. I checked on WP:FOOTY but couldn't find a notability criteria from there and that's usually my go-to place for sensible sports notability criteria. I'll try baseball and hockey as well. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:37, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Blue Square Thing: Since we're a gazetteer, geographies tend to have a lesser notability requirement than anything else (ie, does it exist), but buildings still need to pass WP:GNG. I think it's overplaying the first part and downplaying the latter. SportingFlyer T·C 16:41, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer: I'm a big fan of using GNG as the benchmark myself. In that case this article is clearly much less likely to be kept - it does appear to have been used in some political rallies but I can't find anything suitably in depth about it as a place: but then I don't have access to sources in the local language(s) which might have those details. It's that second sentence in CRIN that needs to be dealt with then, isn't it? It strikes me as far too all-encompassing. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:46, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I'm not too fussed about the CRIN since if you read it narrowly it just implies ovals used by notable teams should also be notable, which is likely true. Also, for the purposes of this AfD this ground appears to be covered locally, as was my guess. See [5]. Can't make heads or tails of the Google translate. SportingFlyer T·C 16:56, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:46, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nomination that didn't check local-language sources? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Only one source has been provided in a local language though, and we need more than one to sustain notability. If you can provide another reference then I can see myself flipping my vote to keep. FOARP (talk) 20:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here is one that discusses the stadium in the context of the 2014 political rally, talking about the stadium's capacity. Here is a December 2017 article that follows on from the July 2017 article I linked above and which again talks about the dilapidated condition of the stadium. At any rate, this is the google search page that comes up when you type in the name of the stadium in Urdu script. I get the sense that the nominator didn't do this. It is, of course, the nominator's onus to do this work, and not the onus of the keep !voter. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Mkativerata: Thank you for doing the legwork to search in Urdu. I know that's something I wouldn't be able to do very easily and I appreciate your work to do that. I'm not sure that it's very productive to criticise anyone for not doing so, but I really do appreciate your work here.
As you clearly know what you're talking about, I don't suppose you could add them in to the article could you? It could use plenty of work and I haven't a single word of Urdu myself. If you can get the basics right then I'm sure other people can do any tweaking. Much appreciated - I hope I'm not being presumptuous by asking you to help us out here. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't speak a word of Urdu either. It's just that (a) it appeared plainly obvious to me that a large provincial stadium would have a fair bit written about it in the local language, and (b) it's also obvious that because our page on the stadium links to a sister page on Urdu wikipedia: [6], you can use the title of that page to search for sources and then run a rough google translate to confirm the gist of what they say. That's more than sufficient to confirm that this stadium meets the GNG and it's something the nominator should have done. Moreover, now that it has been done, it should be causing the nominator to withdraw the AfD. I think it is productive to criticise a nominator when they have wilfully put forward someone else's work for deletion on the basis of a grossly deficient WP:BEFORE effort. The reason that it is productive to do so is that we need to make sure it does not happen again. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:18, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:22, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Talha and sources obtained by Mkativerata. Seems to be notable enough and has enough RS to justify keeping the article. Bookscale (talk) 00:59, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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