Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xing Ruiming

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Xing Ruiming[edit]

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Non notable individual. Can't check the sources since they are offline. Claim of notability is bogus anyway Bedivere (talk) 13:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that author of the page is also the grandson/daughter of this individual, as they have so claimed on their talk page and on Commons Bedivere (talk) 13:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and my grandma passed away a long time ago. And I have been retired for 7 years, at my late 60's already. Ctxz2323 (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that does not exempt you from having a conflict of interest, or in simpler words, an extremely subjective point of view, which reads clearly on your article. Nothing against your grandmother, it's just that I fail to see how she is encyclopedically relevant. Bedivere (talk) 01:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Christianity, and China. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the sources listed under References are online with links available. Ctxz2323 (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And notability is supported by these sources (in Chinese). Ctxz2323 (talk) 23:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Extremely weak~~keep The sourcing is marginal and the tone is not encyclopedic but we have two sources with a substantial amount of detail (one of which has a problem -- see below). Here's a very quick summary:
1, 6 - does not appear to be independent if published by the church
2, 4 - Definitely talk about the article subject but hosted by fx361.com, which appears to be a site for pirated copyrighted materials; how can we assess whether these articles actually appeared in this form in the publications listed?
3 - can't access, summary doesn't mention the article subject
5 - yes, this appears to be a detailed obituary-type article

For #4, the Zhang Li article this link [1] is better.

I can see that the article creator put a lot of work into this but it could be improved by making it a lot shorter and objective. The tone is completely lacking in neutrality, perhaps what we'd expect from a conflict-of-interest editor but that's no excuse. Articles must have encyclopedic tone. Words about being devoted to spreading the gospel, "precious memories", and "loved God and people" are not neutral and should be deleted or put into a neutral tone (if clearly supported by the sources). Oblivy (talk) 01:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I have just changed the Zhang Li article link to the better one.

And will do more on your good suggestions.

I would also like to thank Cielquiparle (talk · contribs) and the other editors who are helping to bring the article up to the level. Ctxz2323 (talk) 07:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the 'extremely weak' from my vote as it seems this article has been greatly improved. It is still, in my opinion, unacceptably hagiographic (treating the subject with undue reverence)), but I don't think that's an issue for this forum.Oblivy (talk) 02:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment commenting at the bottom to try to distance this a bit from the strong language used by @Bedivere, I want to make two points on the issue of conflict of interest here:

First, @Ctxz2323 did the correct thing disclosing the COI, although probably the article should have been submitted through AfC rather than through direct creation.
Second, as I've said above this article suffers from a non-neutral tone. Although the WP:COI guideline says editors "are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly," speaking for myself, I would welcome if @Ctxz2323 takes their hand to reducing the non-neutral language. They are familiar with the sources and now that the issue has been pointed out perhaps they can improve the article's neutrality. Put more bluntly, I don't think it should be the responsibility of other editors to clean up the mess.

Oblivy (talk) 07:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:
People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.
- If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
Sources
1. Xie, Qiongxia 谢琼霞 (2014-07-18). "邢瑞鸣一生献给教育事业" [Xing Ruiming dedicated his life to education]. 汕头特区晚报 [Shantou Special Economic Zone Evening News] (in Chinese).
  The article contains 1,336 words about Xing Ruiming. The article notes: "邢瑞鸣，清光绪十四年（1888）出生于揭阳榕城凤围乡一个贫苦的农民家庭。青年时期的邢瑞鸣热爱读书，由于从小接受新思想新文化的影响，思想进步，她坚决反对妇女缠足，并率先垂范。她主张妇女应彻底打破封建礼制的桎梏，走出闺房，走向社会，学文化，学本领，成为一个自食其力、独立自主的人。"
  From Google Translate: "Xing Ruiming was born into a poor peasant family in Fengwei Township, Rongcheng, Jieyang in the 14th year of Guangxu's reign in the Qing Dynasty (1888). In her youth, Xing Ruiming loved reading. Due to the influence of new ideas and new culture she had received since she was a child, her thoughts were progressive. She firmly opposed women's foot binding and took the lead in setting an example. She advocated that women should completely break the shackles of feudal etiquette, step out of the boudoir, go into society, learn culture and skills, and become a self-reliant, independent person."
  The article notes: "光绪三十一年（1905），邢瑞鸣由基督教会推选到汕头正光女子学校读书，在校期间因品学兼优而被推选为“女宣道会”(即学生会)主席。光绪三十六年（1910）她以优异成绩毕业，回到揭阳。"
  From Google Translate: "In the 31st year of Guangxu (1905), Xing Ruiming was elected by the Christian Church to study at Shantou Zhengguang Women's School. During her time in school, she was elected as the president of the "Female Missionary Association" (i.e. student union) because of her excellent academic performance. In the thirty-sixth year of Guangxu (1910), she graduated with honors and returned to Jieyang."
2. Chen, Chujin 陈楚金 (2014-03-07). "潮汕女子学校之滥觞" [The origin of Chaoshan Girls’ School]. 汕头特区晚报 [Shantou Special Economic Zone Evening News] (in Chinese).
  The article notes: "1908年，受基督教会之托，邢瑞鸣在揭阳北门马牙街开办宗光女校。该校历届学生共有150人，学习科目有国文、数学、历史、地理、圣经等。学校由教会筹资，也只收教徒家女孩为学生。... 1913年，邢瑞鸣在揭阳竹巷内创办静远女校，开始只招20多名女生，办一个班，不到4年，全校就有80多名女学生，连邻近的男孩子也到这里来上学。... 1915年，邢瑞鸣联合揭阳县长周伯初在韩祠路创办揭阳职业女校。"
  From Google Translate: "In 1908, entrusted by the Christian Church, Xing Ruiming opened Zongguang Girls' School in Ma Ya Street, Beimen, Jieyang. There are a total of 150 students in the school, who study subjects such as Chinese, mathematics, history, geography, Bible, etc. The school is funded by the church and only accepts girls from religious families as students. ...In 1913, Xing Ruiming founded Jingyuan Girls' School in Zhuxiang, Jieyang. At first, she only recruited more than 20 girls and ran one class. In less than 4 years, there were more than 80 female students in the whole school, and even the boys nearby Come here to school. ...In 1915, Xing Ruiming and Jieyang County Magistrate Zhou Bochu founded Jieyang Vocational Girls School on Hanci Road."
3. "邢瑞鸣与近代揭阳女子教育" [Xing Ruiming and modern women's education in Jieyang]. 汕头特区晚报 [Shantou Special Economic Zone Evening News] (in Chinese). 2008-04-27.
  The article contains 926 words about Xing Ruiming. The article notes: "1919年以后，邢瑞鸣老师曾先后被聘任为真理女校校长，真理中学校董，县立女子中学教师兼舍监。后来，看到县城女子读书已较为普遍，他又和当时教会中两位同道到农村办短期识字班，教农村妇女识字。在短促三年时间，她深入到潮汕的许多穷乡僻壤，为提高广大农村妇女的知识水平做出了一定的贡献。"
  From Google Translate: "After 1919, Teacher Xing Ruiming was successively appointed as the principal of Zhenzhen Girls’ School, the director of Zhenzhen Middle School, and the teacher and dormitory supervisor of County Girls’ Middle School. Later, seeing that it was more common for women to read in the county, she and two colleagues from the church at that time went to the countryside to run short-term literacy classes to teach rural women how to read. In just three years, she went deep into many remote areas of Chaoshan and made certain contributions to improving the knowledge level of rural women."
4. Cai, Yilong 蔡逸龙 (2021-07-07). "【行走绿廊,感受水城文化之58】静远女校和一位专职女校长的往事" [[Walking on the green corridor, feeling the culture of Shuicheng No. 58] The past of Jingyuan Girls’ School and a full-time female principal]. 揭阳日报 [Jieyang Daily] (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2024-04-08. Retrieved 2024-04-08.
  The article notes: "邢瑞鸣（1889~1990），女，榕城东郊凤围人。因父亲是基督教徒，她在10岁那年，得以走进进贤门外的竹巷静远轩，成为女子识字班的首批学生。"
  From Google Translate: "Xing Ruiming (1889~1990), female, was from Fengwei, the eastern suburb of Rongcheng. Because her father was a Christian, she was able to enter Jingyuanxuan in Zhuxiang outside Jinxianmen when she was 10 years old, and became the first batch of students in the girls' literacy class."
  The article notes: "邢瑞鸣生于清末，追求进步，除了学文化外，还剪短发，不缠足。进入民国时期，她生育有4个儿女，全都送进学校接受新文化教育。她的大女儿陈诗辉，18岁大学毕业后返回揭阳，在一所学校当了校长。"
  From Google Translate: "Xing Ruiming was born in the late Qing Dynasty and pursued progress. In addition to studying culture, he also cut his hair short and did not bind his feet. During the Republic of China, she gave birth to four children, all of whom were sent to school to receive new cultural education. Her eldest daughter Chen Shihui returned to Jieyang after graduating from college at the age of 18 and became the principal of a school."
5. Zhang, Li 张丽 (2018). "女学与社会:多重语境下的近代潮汕女子教育认领" [Women Education and Society: Modern Chaoshan's Women Education in Multiple Contexts]. 《汕头大学学报（人文社会科学版）》 [Journal of Shantou University (Humanities and Social Sciences Edition)] (in Chinese). No. 8. Retrieved 2024-04-08 – via CQVIP [zh].
  The article notes: "1908年 ... 邢瑞鸣受教会委托办宗光女校；1913年 ... 邢瑞鸣办静远女校；1915年吴月珍办枫溪坤范女学堂；1918年邢瑞鸣办揭阳职业女校；... 其中有些女学人的女学实践极为丰富，如 ... 邢瑞鸣先后创办或主办过宗光女校、静远女校、揭阳职业女校等3所女校，兼任过多所学校校长、教师、舍监等职。"
  From Google Translate: "Xing Ruiming was entrusted by the church to set up Zongguang Girls' School; in 1913, ... and Xing Ruiming set up Jingyuan Girls' School; in 1915, Wu Yuezhen set up Fengxi Kunfan Girls' School; in 1918, Xing Ruiming set up Jieyang Vocational Girls' School;... Some of these female scholars have extremely rich practices in female education. For example, ... Xing Ruiming successively founded or hosted three girls' schools, including Zongguang Girls' School, Jingyuan Girls' School, and Jieyang Vocational Girls' School, concurrently serving as principal, teacher, housemaster and other positions in many schools."
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Xing Ruiming (simplified Chinese: 邢瑞鸣; traditional Chinese: 邢瑞鳴; pinyin: Xíng Ruìmíng) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 09:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Thank you, Ctxz2323 (talk · contribs), for creating this article on your grandmother, who is an important figure in early 20th-century education in Guangdong, China. That Xing Ruiming (1888–1990) is still getting significant coverage in 2008, 2014, 2018, and 2021 strongly establishes that she is notable. You disclosed your conflict of interest on the talk page.
I agree with Oblivy (talk · contribs)'s comments about how to proceed when creating an article when having a conflict of interest. If you encounter a conflict-of-interest situation in the future, I recommend asking for review by making a post in in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red (for articles on women) and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China (for articles on Chinese topics).
Although the article had neutral point of view issues, the article has been thoroughly cleaned up by Cielquiparle (talk · contribs) (thank you). Cunard (talk) 09:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. You are a great help! Ctxz2323 (talk) 11:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A new section entitled "Weakness and criticism" has been added to the article. Ctxz2323 (talk) 01:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A new section that was removed as unencyclopaedic and non-neutral. That is the whole point of this deletion request. Bedivere (talk) 15:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in view of the multiple reliable sources coverage identified by Cunard in this discussion that together shows a pass of WP:GNG, and the fact that coverage has been sustained over a long period, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 18:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per sources identified by Cunard, which help to establish a WP:GNG pass; looks like a couple still need to be added to the article. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.