Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sukhada Kane

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The consensus appears to suggest that the subject doesn't meet the notability guidelines, especially after evaluation of Marathi language sources in addition to English language sources. —SpacemanSpiff 14:03, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sukhada Kane[edit]

Sukhada Kane (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Article about an Indian Kirtan singer that was speedy deleted under A7 earlier today. Neither normal searches nor a WP:INDAFD search suggest that she meets the basic notability guideline for people or is notable under the additional criteria for musicians. Article is closely paraphrasing http://www.artists-india.com/vocalists/Sukhada-Kane. — Sam Sailor 11:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. — Sam Sailor 11:58, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. — Sam Sailor 11:58, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please suggest how the article can be improved. It is important that wikipedia does not discriminate and includes prominent indian artists, where many don't have huge access to internet marketing etc (mostly musicians of the older generation), but are still very known well in their field. There are multiple recordings of Mrs Kane online to prove she is a musician of a high calibre. These musicians of the older generation of the highest calibre must be recognised as equals by wikipedia, and not just including those younger musicians who understand and have the access to the internet publicity but are actually not at such a high calibre of musician.
  • Please suggest what can be done to prove why this article should not be deleted. Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 12:35, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any kind of independent, third party source you can cite, much like providing references for any kind of study or research, will help make your case. But they do need to be independent. It shouldn't matter if it isn't internet searchable (although that makes it difficult for editors to verify) but you do need to indicate where and when the reference was published or broadcast or otherwise disseminated. If they are indeed notable such references would exists. If they don't exist then it's a pretty good indication that the person truly isn't notable on scale worthy of a wikipedia entry. But we do need verifiable evidence of notably beyond a statement of belief that a person is notable. Regarding the sources provided here, they largely confirm that she exists, but that can't be justification. The only one here that comes close is a mention in the book Between Two Tampuras, but it's a trivial mention so it's not enough. I suggest taking this to a sandbox to work on it and give yourself more time to find the really good, strong references. Good luck. ShelbyMarion (talk) 14:26, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for your suggestions. Please could you tell me how to transfer the article to the sandbox? Shahanaks (talk) 14:54, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not an expert on those kinds of things, but this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About_the_Sandbox may help get you started in the right direction. I guess you can also contact the person who nominated this article for deletion and ask the nomination be withdrawn while it is in the sandbox and in the process of being improved. ShelbyMarion (talk) 17:17, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • I have searched many Indian newspapers and found hard copies of newspaper articles which clearly mention Sukhada Kane. I will have them scanned and added to the references in the next few days (as an English online copy I could not find). I hope this will be enough as independent third party sources for the nomination for deletion to be removed. Shahanaks (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
            • @Shahanaks: I have posted on your user talk page, if you WP:PING me over there, I will be happy to help. — Sam Sailor 18:05, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @ShelbyMarion: Kane is not mentioned in Vāmana Harī Deśapāṇḍe (1 January 1989). Between Two Tanpuras. Popular Prakashan. ISBN 978-0-86132-226-8. The citation only supports that her teacher Kamal Tambe was a student of Mogubai Kurdikar. — Sam Sailor 18:20, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple credible references have been added from large newspapers. This should suffice as evidence of Sukhada Kane's significance as a vocalist to be included on wikipedia. I will expect the deletion nomination to be removed now. Please do let me know. Shahanaks (talk) 19:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Apart from the sources that are disallowed or that are not about the subject or those which are only fleeting mentions, other references are non reliable sources or local newspapers. For this article, dedicated reports in papers such as the Times of India or The Hindu are of the quality required. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which references are 'disallowed'?. I don't seem to understand what you are implying. The Maharashtra Times is one of the biggest newspapers in India and the other local newspapers are also very big newspapers in Maharashtra. And there are no references mentioned which are not about the subject. All the references refer to the subject and all references talk extensively about Sukhada Kane and her singing. If you can understand what is written in Hindi, the newspaper articles clearly are totally relevant, and show her as a renowned vocalist. Please explain as I see no problem with the references given. @Sam Sailor: Shahanaks (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2016 (UTC) In addition, you cannot rely on the Google translation of these newspapers as the translations are only half translated, often incorrect, and many times people's names are also translated to their literal meanings instead of just stating the name of the person. Therefore it is necessary to keep the articles in the Hindi script to understand the true meaning. Shahanaks (talk) 22:11, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete I see no credible indication of the person's notability, nor do I see anything of particular interest in the article that would justify retaining it under our General Notability Guidelines. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sam Sailor: please explain why the sources provided are not enough? The only thing I can think of is that the editors cannot understand the hindi and so don't realise all that has been written about Sukhada Kane. Please do explain...when there are so many other articles on wiki of musicians that have much less credible references and are still allowed to be kept on wikipedia. Also, please could you explain how some of the largest newspapers in India and Maharashtra can be called as not credible. Just because they are not in English does not mean they're not credible. I see no reason why the sources provided are not enough. And there have been discussions about Sukhada Kane on social media etc and people reading the wiki and so she is obviously of some interest to some, even if indian classical music is a niche subject. I would be very grateful if you could explain to me what is the problem, as right now I see no problem. Many thanks Shahanaks (talk) 08:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Shahanaks: I have made a source review on the article talk page, find it for convenience hatted here below. I include some wikilinks to guidelines and policies, they are worth skimming; often the lead or just the nutshell box will provide the needed understanding for how we work. In short, we lack significant coverage in reliable sources. Take away the text in the article that is directly copy-pasted or closely paraphrased from http://www.artists-india.com/vocalists/Sukhada-Kane, her resume, there is almost nothing left, and no sources to build a rewrite on. — Sam Sailor 15:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Source review

  • "Sukhada Kane – vocalist".
    • Source is Artist-India, a website that is "inviting resumes from artists" for the "sole purpose ... to promote the artists and let the world know about Hindustani classical music".[1] If we are to believe what is written, All India Radio gives Kane a "B High Grade"; ("There are four grades – B, B-High, A & Top awarded to artistes which is purely based on performance quality adjudged by a Committee of Eminent Musicians/ Experts in the field."[2]) The resume was updated today with a photo of Kane.
      • We can assume that this resume was written by subject herself or her agent, so it is not independent (see WP:IS), and does not count towards establishing notability. The overshadowing concern here is that the article was written primarily based on this self-published source. That is a violation of WP:BLPSELFPUB#5. Earwig's Copyvio Detector reports a 61.7% violation possible, and several lines are simply copy pasted. (See WP:COPYPASTE). I have tagged the reference with {{third-party inline}}.
  • "Centennial Silver Jubilee Ceremony, Deval Club, Kolhapur 27th April 2009". Loksatta (in Marathi). loksatta.com. 28 April 2009. Retrieved 13 September 2016.
    • Quote: कोल्हापूरच्या सांस्कृतिक जीवनाचे अविभाज्य घटक असलेल्या गायन समाज देवल क्लबच्या शतकोत्तर रौप्यमहोत्सवी वर्षांचा सांगता सोहळा अक्षयतृतीयेच्या पूर्वसंध्येला सुखदा काणे यांच्या गायनाने प्रातिनिधिक स्वरूपात झाला. आवाजाचा शुद्ध निकोप लगाव, रागस्वरूपाची शिस्तबद्ध मांडणी, आकर्षक बोलताना याद्वारे काणे यांनी आग्रा व जयपूर घराण्याच्या गायकीचे सुश्राव्य दर्शन घडविले. काणे यांनी दिवेलागणीच्या कातरवेळची हुरहुर लावणाऱ्या सायंगेय ‘श्री’ रागातील विलंबित त्रितालातील बंदिशीने कार्यक्रमाची सुरुवात केली. त्यानंतर जयपूर घराण्याची खासियत समजला जाणारा राग ‘डागुरी’ सादर करून रसिकांची वाहवा मिळवली. मधुमधुरा हे नाटय़गीत व अच्युता अनंता हा भैरवीतील अभंग सादर करून दोन तासांपेक्षा अधिक काळ रंगलेल्या मैफलीचा समारोप केला. काणे यांना गिरिधर कुलकर्णी यांनी तबला, तर अण्णाबुवा बुगल यांनी हार्मोनियमसाथ केली. कार्यवाह श्रीकांत डिग्रजकर यांनी प्रास्ताविक केले. कार्यक्रमाला प्रभाकर गोखले, डॉ. शुभदा वायंगणकर, सुधीर पोटे, डॉ. नंदकुमार जोशी, प्रकाश पुरोहित, सुभाष आठले, अरुण कुलकर्णी आदी उपस्थित होते.
    • Source is Loksatta, an old and widely read Marathi newspaper. Web page is not a bylined article, its a "What happened yesterday"-page. Kane gets a short mention in the last paragraph, she sang at the Silver Jubilee the night before in the Deval Club, Kolhapur.
      • Source is reliable, secondary, and independent (see WP:IRS and WP:SECONDARY), and subject gets slightly more than trivial mention. Still, it's not a regular, bylined article, and it's not much more than a few lines about a concert, so it is not significant coverage (see WP:SIGCOV) about Kane.
  • "Sukhada Kane – teacher and training".
    • The source does not mention Kane at all. I assume this is just a mistake, and that the URL is wrong. But the text string Sukhada Kane – teacher and training is only found here on Wikipedia. That could be a matter of translation.
      • The source obviously does not count towards notability. The citation should be corrected or deleted. I have left the three references to this source in the article for now.
  • Vāmana Harī Deśapāṇḍe (1 January 1989). Between Two Tanpuras. Popular Prakashan. ISBN 978-0-86132-226-8.
  • "Pt. D.V. Kane".
    • Citation to website dedicated Indian Classical music. Source is about another one of Kane's teachers, one Pt Kanebuwa. Kane is mentioned as as a disciple.
      • Trivial mention, does not count towards notability.
  • "Lokmat Newspaper - Sukhada Kane performs, Upaj Kalamanch, Kolhapur, 2009".
    • Source is Lokmat, a read Marathi newspaper and one of India's largest. Kane is mentioned.
      • Source is reliable, secondary, and independent, but the mention of subject is trivial.
  • "Alladiya Khan programme Chembur".
    • Source is a Chembur community website, the page is a concert program from 2006.
      • Trivial mention.
  • "Alladiya Khan festival 2006".
    • Website about Indian classical singer Alladiya Khan. The referenced page lists Kane as a performer at an event in 2006.
      • Trivial mention.
  • "Esakal Newspaper - Sukhada Kane performs 8th Feb, 2011, Ichalkaranji".
    • Unknown source, link is dead, and has neither been archived to WebCite, Archive.is, nor The Internet Archive.
      • Unable to vet the source, but Sakal is a reliable source.
  • "Tarun Bharat Newspaper - Music competition 15 Dec 2015, Deval Club, Kolhapur".
    • Tarun Bharat is the seventh-largest-selling Marathi daily newspaper.
      • Tarun Bharat is a reliable, secondary, and independent source. Kane gets a non-significant mention regarding a music competition at the Deval Club, Kolhapur in 2015.
  • "Maharashtra Times - 'Guni Govind' Sat. 14th Jan, 2012 at Dombivali (east)".
  • "Maharashtra Times - 28th Nov 2014 - Sukhada Kane's disciples perform, Kolhapur".
    • Source is The Times of India.
      • Kane gets trivial mention in connection to a youth singer festival.
  • "Sukhada Kane student".
    • User-generated website where quote "If you are a sitar teacher, a tabla teacher, or an instructor in any form of Indian dance or music, you can add your name to database."
      • A user states they are a pupil of Kane. Not useful here.

— Sam Sailor 15:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.artists-india.com/Are-you-an-artist
  2. ^ http://allindiaradio.gov.in/oppurtunities/music/pages/music.aspx


Hello, Thank you for you comments. I would just like to make a few comments. Firstly

1. 

* "Centennial Silver Jubilee Ceremony, Deval Club, Kolhapur 27th April 2009". Loksatta (in Marathi). loksatta.com. 28 April 2009. Retrieved 13 September 2016.
    • Quote: कोल्हापूरच्या सांस्कृतिक जीवनाचे अविभाज्य घटक असलेल्या गायन समाज देवल क्लबच्या शतकोत्तर रौप्यमहोत्सवी वर्षांचा सांगता सोहळा अक्षयतृतीयेच्या पूर्वसंध्येला सुखदा काणे यांच्या गायनाने प्रातिनिधिक स्वरूपात झाला. आवाजाचा शुद्ध निकोप लगाव, रागस्वरूपाची शिस्तबद्ध मांडणी, आकर्षक बोलताना याद्वारे काणे यांनी आग्रा व जयपूर घराण्याच्या गायकीचे सुश्राव्य दर्शन घडविले. काणे यांनी दिवेलागणीच्या कातरवेळची हुरहुर लावणाऱ्या सायंगेय ‘श्री’ रागातील विलंबित त्रितालातील बंदिशीने कार्यक्रमाची सुरुवात केली. त्यानंतर जयपूर घराण्याची खासियत समजला जाणारा राग ‘डागुरी’ सादर करून रसिकांची वाहवा मिळवली. मधुमधुरा हे नाटय़गीत व अच्युता अनंता हा भैरवीतील अभंग सादर करून दोन तासांपेक्षा अधिक काळ रंगलेल्या मैफलीचा समारोप केला. काणे यांना गिरिधर कुलकर्णी यांनी तबला, तर अण्णाबुवा बुगल यांनी हार्मोनियमसाथ केली. कार्यवाह श्रीकांत डिग्रजकर यांनी प्रास्ताविक केले. कार्यक्रमाला प्रभाकर गोखले, डॉ. शुभदा वायंगणकर, सुधीर पोटे, डॉ. नंदकुमार जोशी, प्रकाश पुरोहित, सुभाष आठले, अरुण कुलकर्णी आदी उपस्थित होते.
    • Source is Loksatta, an old and widely read Marathi newspaper. Web page is not a bylined article, its a "What happened yesterday"-page. Kane gets a short mention in the last paragraph, she sang at the Silver Jubilee the night before in the Deval Club, Kolhapur.
      • Source is reliable, secondary, and independent (see WP:IRS and WP:SECONDARY), and subject gets slightly more than trivial mention. Still, it's not a regular, bylined article, and it's not much more than a few lines about a concert, so it is not significant coverage (see WP:SIGCOV) about Kane.

@Sam Sailor: The section where here name is mentioned talks all about her singing and her performance in detail. The translation is bad. So this is more than a trivial mention.

2.

  • "Sukhada Kane – teacher and training".
    • The source does not mention Kane at all. I assume this is just a mistake, and that the URL is wrong. But the text string Sukhada Kane – teacher and training is only found here on Wikipedia. That could be a matter of translation.
      • The source obviously does not count towards notability. The citation should be corrected or deleted. I have left the three references to this source in the article for now.
    • Quote: Smt Sukhada Kane Disciple of Pandit Limayebuwa and Pandit Kanebuwa, Smt Sukhada Kane (Kolhapur) guided Mukul systematically and laid a solid foundation for future training.

This clearly shows that she is mentioned as a teacher and also about her own training. Therefore, the source is not a mistake.

3.

The link works fine. I am able to see the whole news article perfectly. There must be a problem on your end. Please do try again.

4.

Kane is mentioned as a judge for the music competition. Doesn't that show significance?

Please do suggest any more improvements. I will be acting on your comments towards other sources. Thanks for all the help. Shahanaks (talk) 17:02, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1. Yes, as I wrote: "slightly more than trivial mention". 2. Apologies, my mistake. But me missing the mention goes to show how trivial it is. 3. Still this error is reported: "The resource you are looking for has been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable." My 100 Mbit connection works fine. 4. No. — Sam Sailor 00:01, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sam Sailor: thanks sorry my apologies. I will sort out that link. I have found and scanned newspaper articles dedicated to Sukhada Kane with her photo as well and are definitely not just trivial mentions. Please advise how I am supposed to cite these as they are hard copies. Thanks for all your help Shahanaks (talk) 08:40, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier the website was down, now the esakal website is working and I can read the whole article. I don't know how to add screenshots for you to see. Please do advise about how to cite the hard copy of the newspapers @Sam Sailor: Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 11:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sam Sailor: Please can anyone help me. Please explain how can I cite hard copies of newspapers which I have scanned. I don't know how to add scanned files to references. Shahanaks (talk) 08:27, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Shahanaks Can you upload those copies somewhere on internet? To cite sources, see WP:REFB (leave url field blank for offline sources). Anup [Talk] 08:54, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE: Lack of significant coverage (i.e. at least 2-3 paragraph dedicated to subject) in multiple reliable sources makes subject ineligible to meet WP:GNG or any other Wikipedia's notability guideline. Anup [Talk] 08:54, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupmehra: @Sam Sailor: @ShelbyMarion: Hello all, I have recently added 4-5 scans of credible newspaper articles which I was able to get hold of, which clearly show Sukhada Kane in the photo and talked about extensively in the article. I have now managed to cite these. I hope this will be sufficient. Please do let me know soon. Thanks for all the help Shahanaks (talk) 16:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that no one has objected to the article after the most recent changes and additions to the references/citations following the suggested improvements. There have been no responses in a week, so should I assume that the proposed deletion is no longer necessary as all the problems have now been fixed? Shahanaks (talk) 11:51, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: 1
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:27, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Looking at the current version,[1] this seems a useful, well-balanced, verified article to me. The notability guidelines are to suggest what sort of topics that may be suitable for such treatment. If in this case they suggest otherwise (and I'm not at all that they do) then this article is one of the occasional exceptions allowed for. Thincat (talk) 07:26, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the response. As no one else has responded, does that mean that there are no further issues regarding the article and therefore the proposed deletion can be removed, and the page can be kept on wikipedia without any issues? Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 18:36, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it means that we wait for someone uninvolved to close this discussion saying what is to be done according to the the rough consensus. WP:CLOSEAFD Thincat (talk) 18:15, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abstain Having commented earlier in this discussion, my follow-up opinion has been requested. However, since all the new references are in a script/language I don't understand, there is no way I can assess the merits of these sources. ShelbyMarion (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Never heard of a thing like "exception to notability guideline"; I don't believe we have any such article on any topic. The article is presently WP:REFBOMBed, to hide the lack of "substantial coverage" in "multiple secondary, independent and reliable sources". Anup [Talk] 08:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Notability explains the situation about occasional exceptions. Thincat (talk) 13:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see any such advise within notability guideline. Can you please quote the relevant paragraph and the situation where it applies? Anup [Talk] 15:33, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupmehra: All the sources recently added are from 'secondary, independent and reliable sources' by the nature of the newspapers and their popularity in India. In addition, the articles are dedicated to Sukhada Kane and include photos of Kane as well. @ShelbyMarion: I think that it is stated somewhere in one of the wiki essays that the references for an article may be of a different language other than English. This means that the sources are still allowed and contribute to the validity and significance of the article. Shahanaks (talk) 15:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Language of sources is not the problem. I saw those sources. There is nothing anything like what the term "substantial" describes. Anup [Talk] 15:33, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupmehra: Please explain how multiple newspaper articles which are focused on Kane and include her photo are not 'substantial'. In these articles, Kane is given the main importance. The definition of 'substantial' is: 'of considerable importance' or 'concerning the essentials of something' via Google, of which both of these conditions are satisfied by the coverage of Kane in the articles which are dedicated to her. Shahanaks (talk) 15:49, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone please comment on this so that any remaining issues can be solved asap if necessary? Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 23:55, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It seems we need more views on the presented sources. Sam Walton (talk) 14:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 14:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete- weak keep; See note below: Sorry but I am having a few problems. While I can appreciate the stampede of pleas to save the article, as well as the demands "I will expect the deletion nomination to be removed now.". My main issues are things like "And there are no references mentioned which are not about the subject. All the references refer to the subject and all references talk extensively about Sukhada Kane and her singing. If you can understand what is written in Hindi, the newspaper articles clearly are totally relevant, and show her as a renowned vocalist.", along with "In addition, you cannot rely on the Google translation of these newspapers as the translations are only half translated, often incorrect, and many times people's names are also translated to their literal meanings instead of just stating the name of the person.", as well as "Therefore it is necessary to keep the articles in the Hindi script to understand the true meaning.". I can assume all the good faith in the world but if I am told I can't verify source or references, because they can't be translated, I don't think they belong on the English Wikipedia. WP:V; "This page in a nutshell: Readers must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up.". That is not really too complicated nor hard to understand. People (that includes editors) have to be allowed to check the source. 45% of the population of India know Hindi and 25% claim it as their "mother language". When we are talking nearly half a billion people, I for one, find it so improbable that we have to assume more faith than policy mandates and just accept that the sources can't be translated. Yes! we can use non-English sources but please read that section and hopefully understand that "it can't be translated" is not good grounds to argue acceptance. However, since a super-consensus (10 to 4) was over-ridden to keep List of Prime Ministers of Australia with facial hair, I would say do not stop because you might get your article anyway. Otr500 (talk) 02:06, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Otr500: Thank you for your comments. But may be I should clarify, that of course it can be translated. All the newspaper articles can be translated. But they must be translated by someone who understands the language, is what I meant. Google translate does not translate the articles properly - the result is just a load of words, half English, half phonetically written Hindi words in English, and the translation mostly makes no sense. My comment was purely for google's translation of the articles, and not about the ability for the articles to be translated in general. Of course they can be translated. Hope this clarifies your query. Shahanaks (talk) 16:34, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: And what you are now stating is a lot better than what I quoted that you stated. I am for inclusion on Wikipedia of things that are notable, referenced and verifiable. "If" you read WP:NONENG there are solutions provided, that includes asking for translators for the relevant references that provide notability BUT also references that backs up what is in the article. Just slapping a bunch of references on an article, is not even close to what Wikipedia is about. The content of an article has to be backed up by reliable sources, to prevent original research or the related synthesis. This also prevents anyone with a conflict of interest from affecting articles or being shills. At this point, with concerns of references just being pasted to the article, which means editors may not take the time to try to check them out, this might have backfired.
In the section Lineage and training there is the content "she received training from the late Kamal Tambe of Jaipur-Atrauli gharana", with three references. The first is a document of a newspaper clipping. We can't do anything with that. The second has nothing to do with the subject, and the third is another document. I see valid concerns, and a red flag, with the over citing to lend notability.
If I am not mistaken this is a living person so on Wikipedia a WP:BLP. This means that this reference, showing a phone number and email address, probably should be removed, even though it does back up content. Otr500 (talk) 04:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Otr500: Thank you for your comments. However, I think may be I need to clarify a few more things. Firstly, I added references everywhere that was asked - one of the wiki editors had added many 'insert citation here'comments throughout the article, which I then provided the sources for. Secondly, I was asked by one of the wiki editors to add the scans of the newspapers as documents because I had no other way to prove the hard copy sources. In addition, the sources were not 'slapped' on, as they were added in reference to the parts of the article that were asked for citations. And actually, all the sources added were put there to prove the questions and queries that the wiki editors asked for. Therefore, though I agree with what you are saying about the wrongness of added random and irrelevant sources, however, I think that this issue cannot be relevant for this article as all the references were used to satisfy queries and suggestions asked for by other wiki editors. Shahanaks (talk) 09:59, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

With all the circular talk please address the one English reference (that would be actually clarifying "a few more things"), of the three that has no mention of the subject. Slapped on, ref bombed, put on to enhance notability, or whatever other word you would like. Those scans don't prove anything to me, and if they do to anyone else please let me know. You are provided with comments and "here we go round the mulberry bush". You are not really reading the comments, because we should not put phone numbers of people on Wikipedia, two things I specifically mention, you avoid. I randomly looked at one group of messages, out of like 21, and I could find no relation to that one, unless I use another reference that is inappropriate, which I covered above. Otr500 (talk) 11:06, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Otr500: Thank you for your comments. I have acted on your comment about the phone number and have replaced the source, so now there are not any phone numbers shown on any of the sources. As for the one English reference you referred to, that is proof that Kamal Tambe is disciple of Mogubai Kurdikar, as many small points like these had been requested I prove, so it does provide the evidence for what is written. However, if you think that it was not needed of me to prove this, then I can remove such references of these kinds of clarifications, though they were asked for. I just included it cause it was pointed out. And, concerning the scans of the newspapers, please see:

Please explain how can I cite hard copies of newspapers which I have scanned. I don't know how to add scanned files to references. Shahanaks (talk) 08:27, 17 September 2016 (UTC) :Shahanaks Can you upload those copies somewhere on internet?...Anup [Talk] 08:54, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore, my only option was to upload them on google docs as I had no other way of proving the existence of these hard copy newspapers which are dedicated to Sukhada Kane. I hope this clarifies all of your queries. Shahanaks (talk) 21:38, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Change of !vote above. I will tell you from my point of view, remove the scanned copies that are unverifiable, and put them in a reference section on the talk page. Go over the list of references you have provided, and remove those that do not specifically support the content they show to be supporting, and that are actually, intentional or not, refbombing. You can ask if someone will help in translating some of the references, as per my suggestions above. I now see evidence that not only support the name of the subject, but also that you appear to be sincere in improving the article. With that I am inclined to change my !vote. Otr500 (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Otr500: Thank you for all of your comments. I have acted on your point of putting the scanned copies in a reference section on the talk page, as per your suggestion. In addition, I have removed sources which do not specifically talk about Sukhada Kane and were merely just small clarifications of some statements, as per your advice, and so now I hope that the supposed refbombing will be sorted. Please do let me know your feelings on the article now I have made some changes, and do let me know if I can do anything more to improve it. Thanks for all the help. Shahanaks (talk) 19:25, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now we wait for a closing admin who will hopefully see the improvements and consider them enough. Otr500 (talk)
  • Delete I had a look at the sources and the analysis of the English language ones. Sorry but the analysis is correct and it cannot help satisfy GNG - we are strict about our RS requirements. The scanned copies seem to be local news articles - which I am hesitant to use because (1)We don't know how reliable the source is and (2)Local sources give undue weight to certain aspects. From what I looked, the subject is a local musician but nothing suggests they they are notable at a regional/national level. As the coverage is sparse, I will go for a delete per WP:WHYN. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Lemongirl942: Thank you for your comments. However, I notice a few flaws in your justification. The first one is where you have said 'they appear to be local news articles...we don't know how reliable the source is'. Actually, if you read the Hindi, the newspaper names are written there. The newspaper articles scanned are from Tarun Bharat, (which is the 7th largest Marathi newspaper in the whole of India), and Sakal newspaper, which is the number 1 most popular newspaper in the whole of Maharashtra state (which has a population of 114.2 million via Google) and the newspaper is read outside the state as well. Therefore, I think from these facts it is clear that the news articles are not from mere local town or even city bounded newspapers, but are actually very large newspapers in India where the population is nearly 1.3 billion. Therefore I urge you to please reconsider your initial prejudgement that 'nothing suggests they are notable at a regional/national level'. Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand that India has a large population. However, the quality of the coverage seems lacking here - like for example bylined newspaper articles. Usually a notable musician will receive some awards as well/have some notable album releases. I do not see that here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 13:28, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Lemongirl942: Many of the greatest Indian classical vocalists have never released albums, as it is not such a popular thing to do among classical musicians in India compared to US and UK. I currently don't have knowledge of if Kane has published any cds, but I think it is irrelevant. Plus I know that Kane has sang multiple times on All India Radio, proof of which can be found from her profile on 'artist india' and 'meetkalakar' websites. In addition, Kane was awarded the Sushilabai Gaanu Award which has been written already in the article. How many news articles do you expect from some of the largest newspapers in India before it is considered sufficient coverage? Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 13:59, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue is not about how many articles but about the depth of coverage. If the coverage is of enough depth, we can have an article. I had a good look at the analysis of sources done by Sam Sailor and I was satisfied that the sources are not good enough. A passing mention of the subject in the context of an event is not enough for notability. Even if the subject hasn't released an album, they should have at least won a notable award. I don't see that here. My suggestion is to create this article on the Marathi wikipedia as the notability requirements might be lower over there. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 06:58, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Lemongirl942: Thank you for your comments. I don't know anything about marathi or hindi wikipedia. Just one point, the sources analysed by Sam Sailor are not the same sources I have used now. I have improved the article a lot since then. Please treat it as new and look at what has been shown now, instead of then. Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 10:32, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final. Will need admin support Nordic Nightfury 07:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nordic Nightfury 07:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sportsfan 1234: Hello. Though I appreciate constructive criticisms, you are merely a 'flyby' voter. To vote, you must give some strong reasoning which some proof shown. 2 word statement is not sufficient. Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 09:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. SSTflyer 12:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Actually claims no notability. Some trivial mentions in news for being one amongst many stage performers. Not a single dedicated article or even a para in either of the languages. Not convinced that she is notable especially when some SPA has taken so many efforts to prove it and the result still is this. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 02:42, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Dharmadhyaksha: Thank you for your comments. Just wanted to check, did you see the scanned hard copies of the newspapers in the reference section on the talk page? There are paragraphs and whole articles about her and her singing and include her photos. Thanks Shahanaks (talk) 09:15, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes i have, not fully but partially and from that too i had to add citation needed and verification failed tags. But knowing that all your edits have been in regards to this article, i trust that all the possible information is already in the article lets summarize it: Kane learned music from A B & C studying in P Q & R gharanas. She has sung in X Y & Z stage shows. Thats all and nothing of it claims any sort of notability. We have no notable awards for her, one certificate is mentioned which has no proven value. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 12:10, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- a tribute / vanity page on an unremarkable individual. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:02, 3 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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