Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Su Quanzhong

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. ✗plicit 01:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Su Quanzhong[edit]

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PROD denied. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zhang Feng as this is nearly the same except for being about a different minor character in Fengshen Yanyi, including being written by the same blocked sock. UtherSRG (talk) 01:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and China. UtherSRG (talk) 01:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- not notable and is only a minor character. 747pilot (talk) 01:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@747pilot: See source below. Thanks 1.47.16.104 (talk) 04:05, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The Fengshen Yanyi is not a random work of fiction; it is one of the most significant works of Chinese literature, and it's perfectly reasonable that characters in it have pages of their own. He is appointed as the deity of Beidou Xinggong (Big Dipper, 北斗星宫), which is a star or a large asterism that really exists in real life see [1]. Don't compare with Zhang Feng. He is a minor character and was not appointed as a deity by Jiang Ziya in the end. Just as all the Journey to the West characters are notable in their own right, the Fengshen Yanyi characters can also be notable.
The sources could be improved, and here are two suggestions for news articles in Chinese: [2] [3], as well as The Gods List (封神榜) or source that describes Su Quanzhong as "a deity." Liberty Times newspaper source states that Su Quanzhong is "a real god of Big Dipper". His father, Su Hu, is also worshiped as a deity widely in Taiwan as part of Chinese folk religion. You can see the Draft:Su Hu page that I recently created in draft. He is enshrined in some temples of his father. Fictional Marvel or DC characters are not worshiped as deities in the real world. The worship of these fictional characters from Fengshen Yanyi serves as a testament to the deep connection between literature, mythology, and the rich tapestry of Chinese folk religion. Moreover, his life and prominent battles were widely portrayed in Chinese opera and other forms of art; see Shanxi Local Opera Compilation - Volume 6 - Page 28 and Hunan Opera Traditional Scripts: Hunan Opera - Page 63. He has an entry in the Dictionary of Chinese Mythological Characters. While other stuff exists, Chinese works are as deserving of complete coverage as Western ones, and there shouldn't be a separate prominence threshold imposed on them beyond detailed coverage in Chinese reliable sources. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 03:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge with Fengshen Yanyi. Doesn't hold up on it's own as it is right now. The IP editor above says a lot about Fengshen Yanyi but fails to provide any sources that would support this being an article on it's own. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 04:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC) Keep Article sources have greatly improved from one poorly sourced reference to some really great work. Just a reminder this is why Draft space exists. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 21:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The IP editor seems to have provided eight independent sources about this mythical character. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 04:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What the hell? Ugh! Well said, American editor's tradition, as usual, on the Chinese related article. What is your problem? The character on its own satisfies the WP:GNG. IP edits do not mean the article is not notable. Why are you neglecting all the sources? What do you mean by saying 'but fails to provide any sources that would'? If you have eyes, you can easily verify my sources. And if you can't read Chinese, you can use Google translation tool on the web. I'm shocked that you are refusing to see the sources. I'm an expert in Chinese mythology and have created more Chinese myth articles than you have in your age. Pls note that he is a deity not your pet. "Dictionary of Chinese Mythological Characters" is a joke to you? Clearly WP:IDONTLIKEIT. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 05:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. We are glad to have experts, and I would invite you to read through WP:EXPERT if you haven't already. While I cannot verify your credentials, I feel it right to mention that invoking such merit does not guarantee notability. It does not justify an acrimonious response, either.

At any rate, I believe there has been a slight misreading of what Vulpes is saying. "any sources that would support this being an article on its own." It isn't that there are no sources, but rather that the sources you have provided don't suggest that Su Quanzhong needs his own article.

Despite the sources that you have brought up, some of which are only providing passing mentions and barely illuminate the character outside the shadow of Su Hu, it is both curious that they weren't in the article in the first place and that there is no Chinese (or any foreign) article on the subject. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 16:22, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to deliver a slight clarification. There is no single article on Su Quanzhong to the best of my knowledge. I am aware of the article that mentions Su Quanzhong on the Chinese Wikipedia. It is very brief. The article also is quite lacking in citations. There is a Japanese version of this article, too. I would be much more in support of an article like this than one for every single character. We are also not beheld to folk religion. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 16:51, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Maxxhiato: Well said! There are a few editors on both the English and Chinese Wikipedia platforms who specialize in mythology articles. However, many Chinese editors are not interested in folklore and mythology and are often reluctant to create articles on these topics. For instance, notable major deities such as Shiji Niangniang, Dapeng Jinchi Mingwang, Yunü, and Lishan Laomu have been missing from Chinese Wikipedia for a long time, with no one creating articles for them. However, when someone creates these articles on the English Wikipedia, the Chinese Wikipedia often copies them a month later. Therefore, the absence of an article on Chinese Wikipedia does not necessarily mean that the topic is not notable. I have noticed that many AfDs appear to lack fairness, as some articles are swiftly voted for deletion without thorough research or consideration of sources in other languages. This kind of behavior is unacceptable and can cause significant harm to Wikipedia, while also demotivating editors who are passionate about their respective fields. In my opinion, the essence of AfD lies in fostering discussions rather than relying solely on a voting poll. It is crucial to encourage open dialogue and a comprehensive examination of the subject matter before making any decisions. Check again you can now easily verify with quotes. Thanks 1.47.16.104 (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One of the most frustrating things I have observed in my experience as a Wikipedia editor is that some editors seem to be quick to vote for the deletion of articles related to China without giving them proper consideration. This can be seen in the immediate 'delete' votes on articles at the Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. It is important for editors to approach these articles with an open mind and consider their significance and not dismiss them simply because they are related to China. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 22:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For instance, notable major deities such as Shiji Niangniang, Dapeng Jinchi Mingwang, Yunü, and Lishan Laomu have been missing from Chinese Wikipedia for a long time...Therefore, the absence of an article on Chinese Wikipedia does not necessarily mean that the topic is not notable.

This is a fair point. It wasn't a strike against notability so much as it was indicative of the lack of interest or sources, perhaps. Then again, there are articles that could exist but don't on any Wikipedia. Ultimately, I think the best approach would be to create a "list of characters" and make independent articles as necessary. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 12:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Many of them are gods in the Taoist pantheon. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a 10 year old editor, I've never seen fanny "instant delete voter" like you. According to your talk page, you are a problematic editor. So I free you. If you want to argue or refuse, decide pro-mannerly at the standard level. Please vote after analyzing the sources. Please do not give blind votes like an instant. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article was deleted over 7 years ago. I requested to restore the article. Now, things are different from the past. The above sources are not mentioned in passing; they give enough paragraphs on the subject. If you are not satisfied with the above sources, there are many sources in Chinese language books beyond 'Fengshen Yanyi'. I am currently traveling, but if I have time, I will update here as soon as possible. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 06:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Since IP editor is traveling maybe if we don't hear back from them when this AfD comes to end we should think about giving them a short extension. And IP editor is you can point me towards some English sources I'm more then willing to help with the article if the sources would support that, just ping me on my talk page. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 08:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. If the IP editor can improve it, that's great. A redirect in the meantime will be a perfectly acceptable WP:SOFTDEL alternative, or we could just tag this with {{sources exist}}. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:40, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have expanded the article and added reliable sources, significantly improving it with additional Chinese sources and quotes. Su Quanzhong is not just a folk character but can also be regarded as a historical figure of Jiaozuo, as evidenced by the existence of his tomb in Jiaozuo. It is worth noting that the members of the Su Family were not fictional characters, but rather consider as real historical figures. Su Hu and his son were royal ministers at King Zhou's court, while Su Daji served as queen consort. As a result, they are more notable than other characters from the Fengshen Bang mythology. Moreover, he is revered as a star deity in Chinese folk religion, which is more than just words. Many in the Western world may not fully appreciate the respect and awe that Chinese folk religion inspires. For example, Sun Wukong, Princess Iron Fan and Fan Lihua are fictional characters but is worshipped in the real world. Such traditions can only be found in India and China, where folk religion is a combination of both fiction and reality. While some in the Western world may view folk religion as strange or unintelligible, it should not be dismissed or denigrated in this way. See also Mandavi for India example and Zhao Gongming. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 21:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As an expert in Chinese mythology, I would like to support the fact that most of the characters from the novel are notable because they were appointed as gods in the end. It is important to note that China's main religions are folk religion and Taoism, and the worship of folk characters can be found in various villages where they are enshrined in temples. For instance, Nezha, a character from Fengshen Yanyi, is well-known by everyone. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 22:04, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for expanding. I think you are making a good case (and helping with the article), but what would help the most would be to show how this character meets WP:SIGCOV, which I'd summarize as "can you name two or more reliable sources which discuss this character in non-trivial way (i.e. go beyond the simple plot summary) and do it at non-trivial lenght (i.e. do so for more than a sentence or two)"? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware that you may have questions about the existence of the tomb, particularly regarding how a fictional character can have a real-world tomb. However, please carefully read the information provided above. According to beliefs during the Shang era, Su Hu and Su Quanzhong were considered real, not fictional like many others that were removed by you from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Fictional elements lists. To address any doubts, I have included an additional reference in the tomb section. The book Cultural Relics of Jiaozuo City (焦作市文物志), originally published by the University of California, is a reliable source. It states that According to the old county annals and folklore, this tomb is the burial site of Su Hu and Su Quanzhong, father and son who were renowned officials of the Yin Shang dynasty. After being forced to sacrifice Su Daji, they turned against Yin and sided with Zhou. They were killed in the subsequent war and buried here. The Xiaonanzhang Village Tomb is located in the northeast of Xiaonanzhang Village, 3 kilometers north of Wen County. In August 1968, a collection of 23 bronze wares was unearthed from a pit over half a meter deep. Please refrain from making assumptions based on Western perspectives. It is crucial to understand that Chinese beliefs and cultures differ significantly from those you may be familiar with in the Western ones. Additionally, it is worth noting that the characters from the Butterfly Lovers also have a real-world tomb see [4] and Sun Wukong has a tomb at Mount Huaguo, a human-making area. Please note that Hua Mulan is only mentioned in a poem. She is undoubtedly a fictional character, but her enduring existence in popular culture is a result of the oral and folk traditions that have evolved over time in the modern era, making her a significant figure in modern times. Please be aware that the article is not about a living person, but rather a figure from 3069 years ago. Information about this individual can only be found in the form of oral stories that have been recorded in books. Some paragraphs of this information may also be available in limited form on Google Books. "Fengshen Yanyi" is older than "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and more significant. As a future reference, it is worth noting that approximately 80 percent of the characters from "Fengshen Yanyi" were integrated (or adopted) into the Taoist Pantheon as gods, deities, or immortals (xian). Well, he had a historical tomb and is worshipped as a deity in Taiwan, which goes beyond our notability criteria. How much more evidence do you need? I know that you are the "holy father of fictional article deletion," and I have learned many things from you in the past. I have never opposed you before, but I can't stand with you on this one. Please refrain from using AfD as a weapon. Thank you. 1.47.16.104 (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:HEY. The IP user has improved the article substantially and the subject seems to meet GNG. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The sources look fine, except for a few questionable online sources. Fengshen Yanyi is after all, one of the most important works in Chinese literature. Plus, we have articles for every single Water Margin character too, even though most of them would be considered minor characters. Mucube (talk • contribs) 17:17, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.