Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siege of Ontala (1599)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to List of battles in Rajasthan#16th Century as a viable ATD since there was little input since all the socks were blocked and there's no sense of further coming Star Mississippi 14:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Ontala (1599)[edit]

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Reasons are listed below:

The article title, "Siege of Ontala (1599)," appears to be fabricated. There are no reliable sources mentioning either "Siege of Ontala (1599) [1]" or simply "Siege of Ontala [2]" that occurred in 1599. This name seems to be invented, as no historian refers to the military conflict by this name .
Among all the sources cited in the article, with the exception of "Encyclopaedia Indica: Mughals and Rajputs," all other sources fall under either WP:RAJ, WP:AGEMATTERS, or WP:V. The article lacks coverage in enough reliable secondary sources, thus failing to meet the notability criteria WP:GNG. The information can be easily merged to any of the parent articles. Imperial ^[AFCND] 09:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, Military, and Rajasthan. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amar Singh besieged the fort of Ontala from Mughals in 1599. [1]1st

siege at Ontala , in Rajasthan , in Jahangier's time an elephant refused to push at a spiked gate , when a Rajpoot Chief placed his body between it and the gate

source 2:

2nd

Page number 15, Siege of ontala is mentioned

Source 3:

3rd

The siege of the frontier fortress of Ontala, which is about thirty kilometres east of Oodipoor, is famous in the annals of Rajasthan

It's a historical battle lol Narook (talk) 09:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mewar & the Mughal Emperors (1526-1707 A.D.)

Page 125- Kayum Khan, the Mughal general of Ontala was killed while resisting the Rajput attack and the fort of Ontala fell in the hands of Amar Singh's men. Narook (talk) 09:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ImperialAficionado aren't these sources enough? Narook (talk) 09:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ImperialAficionado the article should not be deleted

Amar Singh besieged the fort of Ontala from Mughals in 1599. [1]1st

siege at Ontala , in Rajasthan , in Jahangier's time an elephant refused to push at a spiked gate , when a Rajpoot Chief placed his body between it and the gate

source 2:

2nd

Page number 15, Siege of ontala is mentioned

Source 3:

3rd

The siege of the frontier fortress of Ontala, which is about thirty kilometres east of Oodipoor, is famous in the annals of Rajasthan

Source 4 : Mewar & the Mughal Emperors (1526-1707 A.D.)

Page 125- Kayum Khan, the Mughal general of Ontala was killed while resisting the Rajput attack and the fort of Ontala fell in the hands of Amar Singh's men

Narook (talk) 10:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ontala is also pronounced as Untala

The annual of the east- page 136

siege of Untala, who, descending calmly from his elephant, placed his body on the spikes of the high portal, to serve as a cushion for the beast to push against...

Calcutta Review Volumes 104-105 page 8

Volumes 104-105

Rana Amara Sing , who recovered Chitor after its last capture by Akbar , and the occasion was the attack on the fortress of Untala , whose ruins still Stand between Chittor and udaipur Narook (talk) 10:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the sources are unreliable and not verifiable. The deletion discussion is not a place to make questions against me. If you could do WP:HEY. Go for it. But as long as there is no reliable sources calling it "Siege of Ontala", we can't keep this on mainspace. It's all about naming an event. Imperial ^[AFCND] 10:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ImperialAficionado Unreliable?? Seriously? Do you think historians who've written these books are fools? Narook (talk) 10:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:RAJ, WP:AGEMATTERS, WP:V, and WP:RS. Not evert historian is reliable. And we are definitely not making articles for each and every military conflicts here. See WP:Guide to Deletion and please do not fill the page with unnecessary messages. Imperial ^[AFCND] 10:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ImperialAficionado it was a major decisive victory for the kingdom of Mewar, stop Mughal POV pushing Narook (talk) 10:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep-~~ the article shouldn't be deleted see WP:RSes. We have multiple sources about siege of ontala 1599 Narook (talk) 10:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ImperialAficionado before adding articles for deletion, please discuss about the article in the talk section Narook (talk) 10:24, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Narook, please stop WP:BLUDGEONING the AfD. Out of the 11 comments on this AfD, 9 of those are yours. Calm down and let the process happen. Industrial Insect (talk) 18:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete none of the sources appear to refer to the event as 'The Siege of Ontala' so we cannot have a page called The Siege of Ontala. Tennisist123 (talk) 23:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Well, there is the wild possibility of moving the article to a different page title that is more appropriate. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the context pass WP:GNG, we can keep by moving. Else, there is no other option. Imperial ^[AFCND] 05:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz the Siege of ontala is also called as Siege of Untala 1 moving the page from Siege of Ontala to Siege of Untala would be a better idea Narook (talk) 06:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~•Keep~~- @Tennisist123 @Liz @Spiderone I've quoted the sources mentioning Siege of Ontala below

Encyclopaedia Indica: Mughals and Rajputs (1999) Page 72: Siege of Ontala , the siege of which is famous for one of the most extraordinary exhibitions of Rajput courage recorded in the annals of Rajasthan . The right to lead the herole ( vanguard ) , which had for generations belonged to the Chondawats.

Glimpses of Old Bombay and Western India, with Other Papers page 315

siege at Ontala , in Rajasthan , in Jehangier's time an elephant refused to push at a spiked gate , when a Rajpoot Chief placed his body between it and the gate ,

Maharaj Shakti Singh and the Shaktawats of Boheda (2004)

During the Siege of Untala and Sacrifice of Ballu The right to lead in battle was regarded as a sign of the greatest honour among the Rajputs . This honour was traditionally enjoyed by the Chundawats in Mewar . During the reign of Maharana Amar Singh Narook (talk) 06:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sharing these, @Narook

From my perspective, 1 and 2 are not admissible. 1. We should not be using encyclopedias as proof of notability. 2. Does not describe a proper noun, it describes that a siege occured at this place. The existence of a siege is not what is under discussion but whether the acton was commonly referred to as The Siege of Ontala.

3. is great and supportive of keeping the page. However, I still do not think it is sufficient alone. Tennisist123 (talk) 14:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: While I've struck the duplicate keep votes from a sock, there has not yet been enough participation (votes) to determine a consensus yet.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 13:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's mentioned at List of battles in Rajasthan, does it make sense to redirect it there as an alternative to deletion? Typically I would expect this kind of topic to be discussed in a broader history article about the wider conflict, or in the article on the place/fort itself. But it doesn't look like we have an article for the fortress? -- asilvering (talk) 03:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.