Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shi Xing Mi

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. J04n(talk page) 12:21, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Shi Xing Mi[edit]

Shi Xing Mi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No indications that this person meets WP:ATHLETE or WP:GNG. Only references given are to his own websites (or those of his employer). Google searches reveal nothing of note. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I created the page as I know the person very well, I studied with him. He is a very famous master and former athlete in his field, probably the most well known in Europe; he's been written about in many magazines (see press book from his employer website www.shaolin-wushu.it/press.htm) and featured on documentaries on Discovery etc. Shaolininfo

  • Comment Much of what is included at Shaolin Wushu Italy's press book are articles and books written by this subject, not about him. What remains are some images of articles that are too small to really evaluate, but appear in part to be advertisements for the subject's appearances at various events. To be fair, at least some of the material presented appears to show actual coverage of the subject, but the depth of the coverage is impossible to evaluate from these images, and searches for archival material have not proven fruitful. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The documentary isn't about him, he's mentioned as a Westerner studying under a particular master. The article does me no good since I don't read Italian.Mdtemp (talk) 19:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. LlamaAl (talk) 02:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. LlamaAl (talk) 02:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I didn't find significant independent coverage of him or any indication that he meets WP:MANOTE.Mdtemp (talk) 19:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 00:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment

I looked at the criteria supporting notability...

Subject of an independent article/documentary - he is the subject of many articles, see press book and pdf linked above

Founder of notable style (see section intro) - no, however among the foremost representatives of a notable style

Olympic participant or world champion or repeated medalist of a significant international organization; national and international champion in the '80s and '90 in official IWUF organizations such as EWF and FIWUK

Author of significant book(s) on their style; author of a book available on various book stores including iTunes

So it seems to me that he does not meet "at least one criteria" but in fact all criteria required. I therefore don't see any issue with my contribution; I hope the proposed deletion notice can be removed and that I can add more in the future.

Comment Please sign your postings. If he is the subject of many articles please cite them. You mentioned one article above and the source isn't given--I have no way to know if it's a reliable independent source (besides the fact that I don't know what it says). Where is the evidence that he is a "foremost representative"? There are no sources to support claims of national and international championships. Writing a book does not mean it's a "significant" contribution to the field of martial arts. I have nothing against this person, but right now all I see are lots of unsupported claims.Mdtemp (talk) 18:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment sorry I don't know how to "operate" Wikipedia very well yet ... how do I sign my name? Anyway regarding your questions, the article linked above is from a magazine called Outside, I also have several articles about him in Kung Fu Magazine (USA) in all the Shaolin Specials between 2007 and 2012 and in Budo Magazine (Europe), there are small pictures of the articles in the website of his school (press book page linked before).

Unfortunately IWUF (the official international Kungfu Wushu federation) does not have national and international records online, especially for the pre-internet era, but everyone in this field knows he was one of the winner of most championships in the late '80s and early '90s in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaolininfo (talk • contribs) 10:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You sign your name by typing 4 tildes after your comment. I'm having trouble trying to determine this individual's notability. I looked at the school's press page, but without access to the articles I don't know if they're about the art, the school, or this individual. His book doesn't appear to be notable. As for his championships, "everybody knows" is not acceptable proof of notability. If he's won so many championships, there should be coverage in some independent newspapers and/or magazines. The WP:BURDEN is on the person making the claims to show the subject is notable. Papaursa (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what the issue or confusion is, at the press book page already linked ( http://www.shaolin-wushu.it/press.htm ) there are dozens of articles about him as can be clearly seen from the photos, with publication date, magazine name (some very notable like For Men, Mens Health, etc). I don't understand what stronger independent supporting material there can be.

My problem is that there's no way to tell if this person has received significant independent coverage. I see several articles on Shaolin culture, pictures of multiple people, articles on his instructor, and lots of things on Shaolin--but nothing that shows he personally has been significantly covered. Plus, even if I had the articles it appears that I might not be able to read them. I'm not saying he's not notable, I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that proves to me that he is. I haven't voted because I'm hoping you can provide some sources (preferably in English) that are about him--not his school, style, instructor, Shaolin, etc. Papaursa (talk) 23:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LlamaAl (talk) 00:29, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at his photo pages ( http://www.shaolin-wushu.it/walter.htm and http://www.shaolin-wushu.it/swgi.htm ) and then look at the small press articles pictures on the press book page linked ( http://www.shaolin-wushu.it/press.htm ) you will notice that most articles feature his photos prominently, often as full page article openers or double page spreads. Obviously although the article pictures are too small to read they are about him, otherwise they would not use his face all over dozens of articles. Furthermore the article in PDF which I found and linked last week (a few comments above) although not in english is clearly about him as his name appears repeatedly in the text and his pictures are all over including a double page opener.

Anyway I've scanned some articles about him I have, only a few and a few pages as I don't have the time to do more however I hope it will be enough to close the issue. I have some in english some in german some in italian, here is the link to 10 pages: http://imageshack.us/g/843/45599117.jpg/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaolininfo (talk • contribs) 16:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sticking with my delete vote for the time being. Most of the articles aren't in English and what is appears to be authored by him, not about him.Mdtemp (talk) 19:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1) how does your lack of knowledge of languages other than english have anything to do with somebody's notability or the "value" of their work?
2) if someone is asked to author something on a topic as a top expert in that field doesn't that automatically indicate their standing in such field?
3) how does your opinion of a topic and person you by your own indication know nothing about have any weight in assessing such topic /person?

Please consider the above 3 points...

  • Response 1. It doesn't, except that the burden of proof is on you to show notability and quoting articles that can't be accessed and read is bogus.
2. Writing an article does not show that you're an expert on that field (regardless of the field). There is nothing to show he's written a signficant book that is recommended by people from other styles or organizations (as required by WP:MANOTE).
3. I don't have to be a Shaolin expert, but I do know something about martial arts and Wikipedia. I know that there are certain things you should be aware of, like WP:RS and WP:V.
You also seem to be saying that you can't find coverage of his many championships that "everyone knows" he won in newspapers or magazines.Mdtemp (talk) 14:46, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1 ... but the articles are visible, some in small pictures (big enough to see his photos all over them) some in high res PDF (I linked one a few comments ago)

2 ... if Kung Fu Magazine (to cite just one of many), the most well known international magazine in that field, for several Shaolin Special Issues asks you to contribute with a big article correlated by your photos in full page (as visible on the press book page linked before), it is fair to say that you must be internationally recognized as an expert in that field

3 ... 1980s and 1990s magazines are not online as far as I know, however it matters little as points 1 and 2 are amply sufficient to satisfy the notability criteria.

  • Comment Shaolininfo, I would recommend that you stop removing the AfD tag from this article. Also, I caution against removing tags placed by other editors without addressing the issues. Remember that unsourced claims can be removed. Papaursa (talk) 04:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep Both Shaolininfo and Mdtemp make valid points. I think this article definitely needs improving (especially the sources), but I think there's enough to make a case that the subject meets WP:GNG. He doesn't appear to meet the specific martial arts criteria at WP:MANOTE, but meeting GNG is enough. Papaursa (talk) 04:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Just about meets GNG, as links above http://www.imageshack.us/g/843/45599117.jpg/ - [once Shaolininfo transcribes (i) magazine name (ii) article titles and (iii) year/month of issue into ref format please] - http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1036 etc., although I found 1 solid German print reference to Shi Xing Mi/Walter Gjerga it is the 31st Shaolin Master Shi De Yang (释德杨) who has the notability, if this article is deleted (a third time) then Shi De Yang's annual trips to Italy and Italian "disciples" deserve a second paragraph mention which would be a legitimate way of salvaging some of those links. Most sources for Shi De Yang are in Chinese, obviously. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually that's too time consuming/complicated. I'll just make a stub for the master, and if this gets deleted then someone else can add the Italian disciples in. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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