Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rawlston Masaniai

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. "He's the first to..." is a presumption of notability and would preclude WP:SD#A7. However, once we're at AfD, notability must be shown,not just presumed. Therefore, the "delete" !votes have the stronger policy-based arguments. Randykitty (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rawlston Masaniai[edit]

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Fails WP:GNG. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 05:17, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Oceania. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 05:17, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - "one of the first players from American Samoa to play at international level" seems like notability to me. Unfortunately, media in American Samoa is particularly poor, which makes it hard to get references. I'd also like to draw people's attention to the comment from the closer on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Okilani Tinilau (2nd nomination): "As a project, we must have some sensitivity to the fact that there will be subjects from minority groups in smaller countries for whom sources in English will be sparse or less accessible than for subjects in large English-speaking countries." This seems to be exactly such a case where we need to be careful about deletion.--IdiotSavant (talk) 09:46, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:25, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 11:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per IdiotSavant. He is also the only American Samoan to play in Europe. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 21:04, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'd be more inclined to give this a pass if he had more than zero goals in six appearances at the international level... I'd imagine there would be some discussion of him in European media, but his career is nothing special (in my analysis anyway). PSA Elite is an amateur club and a third-level team in Germany aren't GNG-worthy. Had he not been from American Samoa, he'd be deleted. Unless we can come up with a story or two in the media about him in Europe, it's a Delete for me. I'd be wiling to give it a weak keep if he had a somewhat better career; he's basically a fellow from overseas playing low-level soccer and doesn't seem to be anything special. Oaktree b (talk) 22:00, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm comparing this to the Irene Dubois AfD; they've at least had several interviews that help establish visibility, so a member of the public would find something useful in a Wiki article. This soccer player's article is basically a list of where he's played and stats; nothing for any sort of critical commentary about him or anything to paint a picture of him. It appears he tried to make it on the world soccer stage and never quite went anywhere. Oaktree b (talk) 22:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep passes GNG with references on page.--Ortizesp (talk) 07:19, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The first 5 citations on the page are to non-independent sporting bodies N, the 6th is pure stats N, I get an error message from the 7th, the 8th is a passing mention in a squad list N, the 9th and 10th are stats N, the last is again non-independent N. Nothing remotely close to justify keeping, especially considering the absolute requirement sports bios contain a citation to GNG coverage to even benefit from achievement-based presumptions of further SIGCOV. Without that, the fact that he played at an international level is automatically rejected as an invalid argument. And the implications of racist bias are just slimy. JoelleJay (talk) 07:00, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Added one GNG-passing source from the Los Angeles Times. JTtheOG (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the two-sentence blurb accompanying his name and all the other names of the high school county first and second team members?! No that absolutely does not contribute to GNG, what on earth! That a) is not even close to SIGCOV; b) fails NSPORT decidedly; c) is a routine announcement most certainly contributed by coaches (do you really think newspaper journalists personally researched all 44 high schoolers to independently determine why they were selected?). JoelleJay (talk) 00:12, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe he's referring to this one. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:26, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah that is less preposterous, but still entirely fails independence as well as NSPORT. JoelleJay (talk) 00:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its written by an LA Times staff writer – how is it non-independent? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:35, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You know full well that pieces consisting almost wholly of primary quotes from the subject/affiliates cannot count toward GNG. This is even more the case for high schoolers. JoelleJay (talk) 19:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes. I'd say the second source is a little better than "less preposterous" than said two-sentence blurb in source #1. Also, it would be interesting to hear how you think a piece from an LA Times staff writer is not independent. I am well aware we would probably need at least two GNG-passing sources; I was simply pointing out the addition of a good one. JTtheOG (talk) 00:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not independent or secondary because it's almost entirely quotes/repeating what he or people close to him said. Additionally, it fails YOUNGATH. JoelleJay (talk) 19:50, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 12:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Although the LA Times article is useful coverage, I agree with JoelleJay that it runs afoul of WP:YOUNGATH - there simply isn't "substantial and prolonged coverage" of his time in high school sports. Nothing else comes close to WP:SIGCOV. Jogurney (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Shawn Teller (talk) 14:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.