Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ramona Nerra

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No agreement on the subjective question on the sources demonstrating sufficient coverage. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:59, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ramona Nerra[edit]

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Non-notable individual, fails Wikipedia:Notability (people) { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 19:10, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Really? First "Save Me" and then this? At least this is notable; you can't just delete pages because you think they're "not notable", although they are Cartoon network freak (talk) 19:27, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not nominating just because I think they're not notable. Several people on the Save Me nomination said that Nerra lacks notability as well and that her article should be deleted. I'm just going along with what they said. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:14, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete lacks notability. ×º°”˜`”°º×ηυηzια×º°”˜`”°º× 19:30, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How? --BabbaQ (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No chart presence, nothing relevant enough in her music career, just came 7th out of 10 at the Romanian selection for the Eurovision which is quite underwhelming. ×º°”˜`”°º×ηυηzια×º°”˜`”°º× 22:16, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per WP:GNG. Good sources, Has had a career in music and released several song, and has done interesting collaborations. Clearly notable. --BabbaQ (talk) 21:45, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – I honest cannot see how the provided sources do not pass the notability requirements. Carbrera (talk) 22:17, 5 March 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Keep per above reasons. Aoba47 (talk) 22:42, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - it doesn't appear as though the "keep" voters have analyzed the sources in any depth, so I'll try.
- This is cruft and this is from the subject's own site; neither really counts toward attesting notability.
- This is a passing mention.
- This is of questionable reliability - the blog of a radio program - and it deals not with the subject, but with a song of hers.
- This is a legitimate source, but it's an interview, and interviews alone aren't a very useful gauge of notability, more for statements of opinion from subjects whose notability is established elsewhere.
So, in conclusion, none of the WP:MUSICBIO criteria appear to apply. The main reason this was created is to boost a claim of notability at another AfD, and it shows. - Biruitorul ^Talk 00:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I was just going to point that out. This article was created simply because on the Save Me discussion it was noted that the artist didn't even have their own page. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 00:10, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. Aoba47 (talk) 02:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Aoba47 (talk) 02:11, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J 947 05:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative Keep. Never heard of her before now, but a quick search of google news turns up 8000+ articles, almost all in Romanian. Romanian sources could be incorporated into the article if there aren't enough English ones to establish notability. OTOH her entire youtube channel has less than a million views in total.Jwray (talk) 07:42, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate the difficulty of handling sources in a foreign language, but let me suggest that most of those are less than meets the eye. (I know Romanian, and I checked a couple dozen.) This, for instance. Strike one is that it's in Click!, a tabloid, the kind of publication we probably shouldn't be citing. Strike two is that it mainly revolves around the "sacrifice" Nerra had to make in order to leave Germany, travel to her native country, and try out for Eurovision. Again, not exactly something that screams encyclopedic notability. - Biruitorul ^Talk 17:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The number of results of Google searches are not references. WP:GSNR CBS527^Talk 03:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Update - the article on "Save Me" has been deleted, which further erodes a claim to notability for this article, which was (more or less) expressly created in order to boost the notability claim of the deleted article. - Biruitorul ^Talk 06:38, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE- Fails WP:MUSICBIO, WP:GNG and WP:BASIC. The subject of the article does not appear to be notable nor do the sources seem to establish notability.

Subject does not meet any of the 12 criteria listed in WP:MUSICBIO.

Both WP:GNG and WP:BASIC require require the subject to have received "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject" and "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material." As User:Biruitorul analysis of the sources demonstrates, the sources in the article do not meet these requirements.

Top Românesc - Blogs generally are not reliable for establishing notability. WP:UGC
iTunes - a promotional site and not useful for establishing notability. "Vendor and e-commerce sources".
Ramona Nerra -Subject's website. Per WP:Basic "Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject."
Adevărul - Interview with subject. Primary source. Per WP:IV "The general rule is that any statements made by interviewees about themselves, their activities, or anything they are connected to are primary-source and not independent material".
Antena3 - Trivial mention that subject finished 7th out of 10 in Eurovision 2017 Romania.

G-searches are not providing sources to establish notability - mostly press release, primary sources, social media or e-commerce sites. CBS527^Talk 03:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Arvunescu, Victor; Constanda, Alexandra (2017-03-01). "Ramona Nerra, finalistă Eurovision România: Piesa nu mă duce la limită, cum spun unii membri ai juriului" [Ramona Nerra, finalist Eurovision Romania: The play does not lead me to the limit, as some say jurors. I do not play the head voice, be easy and cute]. Adevărul (in Romanian). Archived from the original on 2017-03-23. Retrieved 2017-03-23.
  This article provides two paragraphs of non-interview coverage about the subject.
  From Google Translate:
  Ramona Nerra graduated from high school in Craiova and has a diploma in theater and film, completed in Bucharest. It is now a singer and lives in Dusseldorf (Germany). He was persuaded to join in the "Voice of Germany" by her husband, but also participated in Season 6 "Voice of Romania".
  It is described as an open, ambitious and confident. For Ramona Nerra more important than his music career are twins around. In the past, he made the band Alize, with Nicoleta Luciu. Romania is now a finalist Eurovision 2017 with the song "Save Me".
2. Cerban, Madalina (2012-06-15). "Ramona Nerra, românca de la "Vocea Germaniei", pe cea mai nouă compilaţie a DJ-ului ATB" [Ramona Nerra, Romance from "The Voice of Germany", the latest compilation of DJ ATB]. Mediafax (in Romanian). Archived from the original on 2017-03-23. Retrieved 2017-03-23.
  From Google Translate:
  Romance Ramona Nerra, which stood in the "Voice of Germany / The Voice of Germany", appears in the latest compilation of DJ International ATB (André Tanneberger), with whom he recorded two songs - "Never Give Up" and " in And Out Of Love ".
  ...
  Ramona Nerra is 33 years old, graduated from high school in Craiova and has a diploma in theater and film, completed in Bucharest. Currently she is a singer and lives in Dusseldorf. He was persuaded to join in the "Voice of Germany" by her husband. It is described as an open, ambitious and confident. For Ramona Nerra more important than his music career are twins, aged three years.
  In an interview with AFP on January 4, Ramona Nerra, living in Germany for almost ten years, said that "Voice of Germany" - the German version of the talent show "The Voice" - accounted for her "positive change "which allowed him to be more known.
  She said in the interview that when she was 10 years began to frequent "kids club" of Craiova city where he lived until entering college. Later he moved to Bucharest, and its concern remains music. Thus, she began working in the band Alize with Nicoleta Luciu. After leaving the band in June 2002 he went to Germany.
3. "Ramona Nerra Participation Eurovision nerra launches "Save Me" song that joined the Eurovision Romania" [Ramona Nerra Participare Eurovision: Nerra lanseaza „Save me”, piesa cu care sa inscris in concursul Eurovision Romania] (in Romanian). ro:Top Românesc. 2017-02-01. Archived from the original on 2017-03-23. Retrieved 2017-03-23.
  From Google Translate:
  Ramona Nerra is born and raised in Romania and began singing at a very young age. The artist is no stranger to the press and public from Romania. Talented singer became known with Nicoleta Luciu band Alize person that it remained girlfriend. In 2000 he moved to Germany and the fruits of labor in music began to pay off, because after attending "The Voice of Germany" Ramona got to work with one of the most famous DJs in the world, ATB. They recorded two songs together, "Never give up" and "In and out of love" and Ramona Nerra accompanied on his tour American "ATB In Concert". If in 2011 participate in the "Voice of Germany", last year, it managed to impress the jury of the "Voice of Romania" where he reached the semifinals in Smiley's team. Ramona Nerra is not the first participation in the Eurovision Song Contest, she participated in the 2015 ballad "Trilogy of Life" (song he wrote with Patrick Hamilton - Belgium) and in 2016 with Mihai Alexandru song "My heart is still winning. "
4. Kreienbrink, Ingmar (2012-01-27). "The Voice of Germany - Ramona Nerra does not want to be a doll" [The Voice of Germany – Ramona Nerra will keine Puppe sein] (in German). Funke Mediengruppe. Archived from the original on 2017-03-23. Retrieved 2017-03-23.
  From Google Translate:
  The Düsseldorf singer Ramona Nerra would have almost finished at "The Voice of Germany". She was afraid that the casting format would finally end in the usual doll show. Now she is happy to be there and dreams of moving into the semifinals of "The Voice of Germany".
  ...
  The career of Ramona Nerra began in her native country Romania. At the age of 14 she received a training at a singing school. She then studies "Theater and Film" at a university in Bucharest. Ramona Nerra dared to start the music business with the pop duo "Alize".
  However, the success in Romania does not reach her, she wants to get through in Germany. Here, Ramona Nerra makes a name as a singer of the well-known cover band "Fresh Music Live". This takes place regularly in the Düsseldorf harbor. She was also on stage with Lionel Richie, Joe Cocker and Chris de Burgh. "With" Fresh Music Live "I am so much on the road, as the time for my own projects was missing - until her manager announced her at" The Voice of Germany ".
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Ramona Nerra to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 07:41, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The sources above don't appear to meet the requirements of being "independent of the subject" as previously discussed. To elaborate on your examples-

1 (in addition to being primarily an interview) and 2 show clear signs of information from press releases. The coverage provides the same information and some of the verbiage is exactly the same. Some of the same information:

... graduated from high school in Craiova and has a diploma in theater and film, completed in Bucharest.

... now a singer and lives in Dusseldorf (Germany).

... was persuaded to join in the "Voice of Germany" by her husband

... more important than his music career are twins around.

3. Clearly from a press release. Same exact language can be found in "star-gossip.com"., "EVZ.RO". and "1music.ro"..

4. Another article where the majority of the article is quotes from the subject. The non-quoted material shows signs of being provided by the subject-

... She was afraid...

... Now she is happy ...

... she wants ...

... I am so much on the road...

Per WP:GNG "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not considered independent." CBS527^Talk 15:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do not consider bylined articles from reputable news organizations to be non-independent of the subject. The articles contain overlapping biographical material but they also have different content.
http://www.evz.ro/de-la-vocea-germaniei-la-eurovision-romania-povestea-ramonei-ner.html notes that the article was written by Alin Pătru, so it is likely the other websites, which do not have author information, are copying from it.
There is sufficient biographical information in the non-quoted sections of the article to provide significant coverage.
Cunard (talk) 05:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What we are talking about is far more than "overlapping biographical material", as in the cases of star-gossip.com, evz.ro,1music.ro and topromanesc.ro as well as a number of other sources available online, the exact same wording. Unless all the articles are plagiarized from some source, which, would automatically disqualify those as reliable sources, it is more likely from a press release which doesn't need attribution.

Since several of the aforementioned articles, including star-gossip.com(tabloid) and topromanesc.ro(blogul/blog) were published several weeks before Alin Pătru's evz.ro article it's very doubtful that they were copied from it. A byline in an article doesn't demonstrated that an article original material - this is a perfect example of that.

When the majority of an article is quotations from the subject it is very likely that the unquoted material was also supplied by the subject. The language in the unquoted sources you listed indicates this as well. Information such as where she was born or went to school, that her twins are more important than her career or who she has been on stage with may be interesting and may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward establishing the notability of a subject. CBS527^Talk 16:00, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Even if the third source were excluded, I consider the fourth source from the German publication to be a strong source. It is an international source (Ramona Nerra is Romanian) and it contains significant biographical information about her. That the source includes substantial quotes from her does not mean the rest of the article was not independently researched and verified. Cunard (talk) 03:22, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Exemplo347 (talk) 00:45, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:31, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I respect the work put into the article by its creators, but I agree with the above "delete" votes and the reasoning that they put forth. Aoba47 (talk) 15:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.