Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Principality of Dukagjini (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. A potential merge to Dukagjini family can be proposed and discussed separately on the talk page. BD2412 T 21:52, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Principality of Dukagjini[edit]

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I have nothing to add to the case for deletion made at the 2016 discussion which resulted in delete. ‘ No multiple reliable sources that proves this principality ever existed. The article is WP:CFORK of Dukagjin highlands populated by many different tribes and people with no supreme rule in period in question. The only somewhat reliable source used in the article is authored by non-historian Mortimer Sellers. A couple of works of Albanian historiography were also mentioned in the article, without provided quotes. Unless multiple reliable sources are provided to prove this territory was actually a state in period in question (14th and 15th century) the article should be deleted.‘ Mccapra (talk) 20:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 20:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kosovo-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 20:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are way more sources that can be added to this topic and the page can be definitely expanded, there are recorded documents that the Dukagjini family has been ruling during this period and obviously there may be some lack of evidence but coming up with the conclusion that the principality didn't exist at all is just absurd Dardania0 (talk|)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:05, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep no offence, but the filer clearly does not know much about this topic. First of all, it was not a "state" in the modern sense but a feudal holding. Second, there is plenty of bibliography referring to this entity. Third, yes most of this bibliography comes out of Albania -- but also Greece -- but there are plenty after the communist period and published in Western or otherwise non-Albanian journals so the sneering about "Albanian historiography" is a bit overdone. [1] [2][3][4] et cetera. --Calthinus (talk) 15:12, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, I will note that a majority of delete votes on the previous deletion discussion were made by now permabanned sockpuppets -- Zoupan and Tiptoethroughtheminefield, both of which are members of particularly egregious sockfarms (Ajdebre and Meowy) -- hence invalid. --Calthinus (talk) 15:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, wait, the only other delete vote in that discussion is also a sockpuppet of Trampton. Great. So every delete vote was a sock. --Calthinus (talk) 15:21, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Hi filer here. No offence taken. It’s true that I have no knowledge of this topic, but AfD isn’t determined by what I know, but by whether there are sufficient reliable independent sources to support an article. There aren’t. I came across this at new page review, and saw that it was a recreation of an article deleted in 2016 and it appears to have been recreated without any improvement in sourcing. When I go to the main source provided, Mortimer Sellers, I find that this source does not mention the term ‘Principality of Dukagjini’ or indeed talk about anything other than the development of a local legal code. I look next at the other source provided, which is a scholarly publication dating back to the era of Enver Hoxha, and therefore not necessarily reliable, and as far as I can tell makes a single passing mention of the term ‘principata a Dukagjineve’ – there may be more as some of the content is hidden in a google search. I did a search online myself and found various passing references to individual members of the Dukagjini family, but none whatever to a ‘principality’. Turning to the sources provided in this deletion discussion:

1. ‘Gunpowder tools in the village Guri i Bardhë in the province of Mat’, so a completely different topic, with one passing reference to ‘Albanian principalities such as: Tanush Dukagjini (1417), Lek Zaharia (1417), and a few more.’ As Tanush was a person and not a ‘principality’ it is not even clear that the author has used the correct English word, so this is pretty shaky.

2.I can’t downlaod to read, but there is no reference to a ‘Principality of Dukagjini’ in the abstract, and the topic seems to be, as with Mortimer Sellers, the development of traditional law.

3.Is a thesis about this region, but once again does not mention a ‘Principality of Dukagjin’ anywhere – indeed the topic of the thesis is to do with the Ottoman administration of this region, centuries after the alleged principality existed.

4.Makes a single reference to a single individual, Gjergj Dukagjini, but again, no mention at all of a principality. This is despite the fact the topic of the paper, ‘‘The Ottoman Advance and Consolidation in Epiros and Albania During the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries’, would be exactly where you would expect to find some discussion of a principality.

So overall there is nothing I see that looks like significant, in-depth coverage in multiple reliable independent sources, and the 2016 deletion nomination was correct that this 'article is WP:CFORK of Dukagjin highlands'. Mccapra (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's impossible for it to be a CFORK by category error for a geographical page because the page is about a political entity that is defined politically -- not geographically. It's a significant one as Peterkingiron has noted below -- its rulers were the source of the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini, which still operates today (rather unfortunately...). And let's be very clear: it wasn't really a principality, this is bad translation. It was a feudal holding that for the most part was held by a family that was usually vassalized to the larger state entities in the region (variously in different periods Ottomans, Serbia, etc....). --Calthinus (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Either keep or at worst Merge to Dukagjini family -- I know little of this subject, but this does not seem to be a pure invention. Accordingly, I cannot support plain deletion. We are concerned with a period when a ruler might well be a vassal of another ruler. I suspect we are also dealing with a situation where historical sources are not local chronicles, but those of competing foreign powers - the Ottomans and Venetians. This means that the question of who ruled and how much sovereignty they had is not as simple as with modern states. The ruler of a vassal state (and the state itself) may well be notable. We have articles on two of the alleged rulers, one of whom was notable enough to promulgate a law code Kanuni i Lekë Dukagjinit. This suggests some level of rule. The article is certainly not adequately sourced, but that does not mean that it is rubbish. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I wanted to get involved with the article throughout the week but I had no free time to do so until today. There are verifiable sources, but they use many different names because in primary documents its rulers didn't use a particular title for their domains. In Albanian historiography, it is referred to as zotërimet (domain) not principata (principality).--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:34, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 06:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:V and WP:SIGCOV. I'm having difficulty verifying the sources. In Imber (2019), there is no mention at all of Dukagjini. Malaj (2016) appears to be privately-published original research. Fine (1994), literally mentions the family once, in a single sentence. Trnavci (2010), mentions the Dukagjini family half a dozen times over two pages, but never once as a principality or any other legal entity. There's evidence this family existed, but not any actual state nor their titles of nobility. Nobility are not automatically notable, and we need to verify that a state existed. Bearian (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:38, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Dukagjini family. Substantial portion of the article is about the family, not the principality. Article doesn't contain the type of information a reader would expect about a region, such as is found at Principality of Kastrioti. It could also have a listing created here Albanian principalities, an article which could use some clean up. // Timothy :: talk 16:48, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.