Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ozan Boz (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Minor Empire. Randykitty (talk) 17:16, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ozan Boz[edit]

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Note: I had closed this earlier but the creator protested. Drmies (talk) 01:24, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Article had been nominated G4 as substantially the same as an article deleted in 2018. However as it contains multiple references to sources published in 2020, it can't be substantually the same, though it may well still not meet our notability requirements Ϣere SpielChequers 23:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Article lists notable accomplishments with multiple references to reliable sources such as Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), Canadian Folk Music Awards (CFMA), official websites of film festivals. Neckhumbucker (talk) 11:18, 27 December 2020 (UTC) Neckhumbucker[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:50, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:50, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I was the nominator for this person's first AfD about two years ago, at which time he had accomplished nothing. I will make a neutral comment for now: Criterion #8 at WP:MUSICBIO requires a victory or nomination for a major music award. The Canadian Folk Music Awards and American Independent Music Awards may or may not be major ceremonies; they receive relatively little media coverage in their own right, and simply being nominated does not generate media coverage for anyone including Mr. Boz. Being invited to some film festivals is definitely not notable. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 20:50, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 21:18, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Original article may have lacked clarity pointing out the accomplishments and may have had a promotional language. However, in the new article, language is revised, and media quotes are used to describe the music. Any suggestions on improving the language is welcome. New article has references to multiple notable media sources in Canada such as Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Jazz.FM, Exclaim, Chronicle Telegraph. Awards may not be well-known in popular genres but they are major national/international awards in underrepresented genres such as folk, jazz, world in Canada and US. Notability of the awards come from their jury and voting system. New article attempts to satisfy sections #1, 2, 4, 7 of WP:MUSICBIO Admittedly, filmmaking seems like a side project or a new engagement of the individual. As for COI, contributing to pages of artists who are in the same circles / musical community does not constitute a conflict of interest. ---Neckhumbucker (talk) 15:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 12:33, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Minor Empire. I made a neutral comment above, but since nobody voted I will try to move this forward. Every single one of the music-related sources in Boz's article are actually about the band Minor Empire, in which he has been noticed very briefly as member and producer. His award nominations are in relation to the band as well. His outside activities as producer and filmmaker have received no independent notice, and simply being invited to some film festivals is not notable unless it comes with reliable media coverage. Therefore all of Boz's notability is in conjunction with Minor Empire and he can be mentioned at their article. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 17:21, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Minor Empire per DOOMSDAYER. I'm also not sold by the avoidance of direct answer by Neckhumbucker to WP:COI questions. The edit history speaks to this. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Minor Empire. The information covered in this article can be easily incorporated into the main article about the band. The person alone doesn’t seem to be notable enough for a standalone article. Keivan.f^Talk 09:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per per DOOMSDAYER and Keivan.f to Minor Empire. // Timothy :: talk 00:03, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article was marked for speedy deletion first because it was claimed to be “substantially the same” as an article deleted in 2018 by the Nominator. However, the new article is a complete rewrite as it contains multiple references to sources published in and after 2018, it “can't be substantially the same”. (as per ϢereSpielChequers) As I am reading the Wiki policies, this constitutes as “Overzealous deletion” WP:OZD since the nominator didn’t review the new article carefully and rushed into the speedy deletion.

Later, the nominator added a few comments concerning notability.

Nominator’s concerns were around reliable sources at first. As explained above, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), Jazz.FM, Exclaim, Chronicle Telegraph are all highly credible/reliable sources in Canada. The new article satisfies the section 1 of the WP:MUSICBIO guidelines.

Another concern was around the notability of Canadian Folk Music Award (CFMA) [[1]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Folk_Music_Awards . It is clear in the guidelines WP:MUSICBIO, major awards are not limited to Grammy. CFMA is a national music award in Canada since 2005. It recognizes the accomplishments of musicians and professionals in the music industry in underrepresented music genres such as folk, jazz, world. It may or may not get media coverage as much as more popular awards, however criteria is not about popularity, but verifiability/reliability/notability. As a matter of fact, many Grammy or Juno nominees get very little to none media coverage. CFMAs are regarded as major awards in Canada in their own right for their inclusiveness for eclectic musical genres, and their established jury system is known to be far more inclusive than Junos. The same is true for the Independent Music Awards. The new article satisfies section 8 of the WP:MUSICBIO guidelines.

As laid out in the guidelines WP:NMG, reliable source doesn’t only mean “media coverage”. Since CFMA is an established and highly regarded organization, their website is a reliable source. The same is true for Independent Music Awards.

The nominator's concerns later shifted to the person’s nomination at CFMA as the nominator claimed that the nomination was for the band, not the person. Nominator is mistaken. A careful look at the awards website will reveal that the individual was nominated for his accomplishment for producing a record for the band, and he was nominated as a Producer (as an individual) not as a member of the band. Nomination is his accomplishment alone. The same is true for Independent Music Awards. Outside work is also not a requirement of the guideline WP:MUSICBIO.

Just because an article was marked for speedy deletion for the second time, doesn’t mean the only resolution is to delete or merge or redirect it. As the new article satisfies more than one requirement of the guidelines, it should be kept.

Newcomer [[2]] Neckhumbucker (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for DOOMSDAYER520’s comment about the person being noticed briefly, CBC article is a stub for a radio/tv spot on national radio/tv, and Jazz.fm article is a description page for an 1-hr documentary on the works of the band as well as the producer. Jazz.fm broadcasts nationally and internationally on satellite radio, and one of very few jazz-only radios remaining in North America. If the article is kept, sources to the actual footage may be discovered by other contributors, but if it is deleted, the article won’t have that chance. Neckhumbucker (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DOOMSDAYER520 also raised concerns about the person’s filmmaking endeavour. As I wrote above, while this seems to be an extracurricular activity for the person or a new occupation. I don’t see any harm leaving it there since there are reliable sources. Media coverage is not a requirement. Film festival websites are reliable enough sources to include this info. Maybe “filmmaker” can be removed from the Occupations list until this person creates more work in that field. However, there are many musician profiles on Wikipedia where the person is also said to be, say, a painter with no reference. Marital status of many people are mentioned with no reference either. These are such details that make them look human, and in my opinion, makes the article an interesting read. As long as there are reliable sources (as in this case), showing someone’s profile in its entirety makes a more readable article. Neckhumbucker (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A redirect comment was made by Keivan.f. However, the editor doesn’t sound certain as many of the commenters. Wiki Policy WP:DP discusses in length that when in doubt, keeping the article is a better choice, and suggestions for improvement are more appropriate resolutions, especially if there is a potential for the article to grow. Neckhumbucker (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment 2601:188:180:b8e0:c9ac:a0c:6f13:582c added a COI template and DOOMSDAYER referenced to it, however no discussion was started, or no explanation given as to what it is s/he thinks that might be a COI here. COI page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COI ) states “if you place this tag, you should promptly start a discussion on the article's talk page to explain what is non-neutral about the article. If you do not start a discussion, any editor will be justified in removing the tag without warning.“

This might be the condoned practise as editors move quickly through articles, however according to the COI page it is not the right way. I'd be happy to respond to this COI claim. However, as DOOMSDAYER did, solely pointing out to “edit history” doesn’t give me much to respond to WP:COI. Anyone’s edit history can be interpreted and pointed out for some speculative affiliation. The burden of providing supporting evidence is on the claimant. I’d like to get attention to the “Assuming good faith” (AGF) principle. WP:GF Neckhumbucker (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Neckhumbucker. sources are good Mottomondo (talk) 18:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep notable Mirhana82 (talk) 14:25, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for it attains the min requirements of WP:MUSICBIO. - Yitbe ^A-21 14:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.