Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orsinoe

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. As has been mentioned, consensus is against an article. Anybody who is enough of a classicist should find in this discussion the required material for a mention at Pan (god)#Parentage, if they deem that appropriate, in which case this can be recreated as a redirect. The current content by Dave12121212 is, in its entirety: "In Greek mythology, Orsinoe (Ὀρσινόη) was a nymph and one of possible mothers of Pan by Hermes. (Scholia on Euripides, Rhesus 36.)" Sandstein 08:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Orsinoe[edit]

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Seemingly non-notable character in Greek mythology. I wasn't able to find any sources via multiple searches. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 15:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mythology-related deletion discussions. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 15:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 15:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge & re-direct, to Pan_(god)#Parentage, both this article and the available sources[1] only describe her in this context. SailingInABathTub (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Her name is not even mentioned in Euripides' Rhesus, that is provided as source. I didn't find any reference to a Greek name such as "Ὀρσινόη". ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 09:38, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS. A source mentioning a nymph as mother of Pan and Hermes as his father is the Homeric Hymn "To Pan". According to that version, Pan was the son of Hermes and an unnamed nymph, "daughter of Dryops". The name Orsinoe (Ὀρσινόη) doesn't appear anywhere. Maybe there is a confusion with Οἰνόη (Oinoe / Oenoe), the Arcadian nymph that according to one account was the mother of Hermes (fathered by Zeus, or Aether). ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 13:40, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chalk19: there is a mention of Orsinoe as mother of Pan in Euripidi Rhesus: cum scholiis antiquis, so it is better to incorporate the name as an alternative of Oenoe (mythology).

Cui eandem, cave, habeas eam, que deinceps lin. 6 commemoratur Ὀρσινόη Nympha. Potius conferendus Pausanias viii, 30, 3. καὶ ἄγαλμα Πανός, λίθου πεποιημένον, ἐπίκλησις δὲ Σινόεις ἐστὶν αὐτῷ, τὴν τε ἐπίκλισην γενέσθαι τῷ Πανὶ ἀπὸ Νύμφης Σινόης
Facili quidem coniectura Siebelis ad Pausan. T.iii. p.295 pro Σινόεις et Σινόης legendum dicit Οἰνόεις et Οἰνόης. Sed ut dubites, efficit scholiasta Rhesi apud quem Pausaniae aut hunc locum corruptum videri. Neque enim dubito, quin eandem matrem et Pausanias et Rhesi iterpres significaverit. Ὀρσινόην verum videtur nomen, et recte fortasse explicat Welckerus (de Cyclo p. 323 not. 532), ita appellatam esse autumans propter τὰ Πανικὰ κινήματα.

--Ah3kal (talk) 08:58, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ah3kal: This is a comment on the ancient text in a 1832 edition. The name doesn't appear in Euripides' original. There is no reason to reproduce what seems to be a confusion with names of that commentator, by putting down the otherwise untestified name "Ὀρσινόη". ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 21:57, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 04:34, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chalk19: My latin is poor, but I think the name originates to an ancient commentator, not just the modern (i.e. 19th century). The name also has a lemma in Pauly–Wissowa: de:s:RE:Orsinoe, so it is definately ancient (confusion or not, but in any case ancient) and should be refered at least as an alternative.

Τὸν Πᾶνα οἱ μὲν Πηνελόπης φασὶ [ἢ?] Καλλιστοῦς καὶ δύο παῖδας γενομένους (l. καὶ Διὸς παῖδα γενέσθαι?) (ἀφ ̓ ἧς ὄρος Κυλλήνης)· ἄλλοι δὲ Ἀπόλλωνος καὶ Πηνελόπης, ὡς καὶ Εὐφορίων· ὃν ἔθρεψαν νύμφαι· διὸ καὶ νυμφαγενῆ αὐτόν φησι τραφέντα παρ ̓ ἐκείναις. Ἀρ(??)ῆθος (sic) δὲ ὁ Τεγεάτης Αἰθέρος αὐτὸν καὶ νύμφης Οἰνόης γενεαλογεῖ. Ἔνιοι δὲ Ὀρσινόης νύμφης καὶ Ἑρμοῦ. Ἐπιμενίδης δὲ Καλλιστοῦς καὶ Διὸς παῖδας γεγενῆσθαι Πᾶνα καὶ Ἀρκάδα διδύμους.
— Fragmenta historicorum graecorum IV p.319

--Ah3kal (talk) 06:36, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, someone commenting (when ? ) on a Euripides' verse writes that "some" unidentified others-writers-poeple name Orsinoe as mother of Hermes. This is all. This is the only time ever that this name appears (it's not mentioned by Euripides). For me this not an alternative story within Greek Mythology. It's just a vague story that the most it might deserve is a footnote stating that a commentator wrote that according to some people Pan's mother was etc. ..., clarifying that this is the only "evidence" of that name. But probably that would be original research. ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 09:28, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chalk19: It would be OR if it wasn't in RE. It's not our conclusion but REs (which is none the less a reliable source in greek literature) and most specificaly Gustav Türks , as he is the author of the aformentioned de:s:RE:Orsinoe. I may agree with your conclusions, but these are what constitutes OR. RE may be wrong, or due to the size of the lemma Gustav Türk may not have thought it through, but the lemma exists, and our interpretation of this is irrelevant.Ah3kal (talk) 12:18, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Clear consensus article shouldn't exist. Whether this would be a useful redirect, or should be more properly deleted, feels less settled and perhaps worth doing in this instance.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.