Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mustapha Sesay

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mustapha Sesay[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Article about semi-pro footballer who was under contract at a club (Dolphins F.C.) in the fully-pro Nigerian Premier League, but there is no evidence that he actually played for the senior side in the league. A search of online sources indicates that Sesay only received routine coverage (e.g., match reports) in Sierra Leone-based sources and essentially zero coverage in Nigerian sources, so the article comprehensively fails WP:GNG. Article was previously nominated for speedy deletion many years ago, which was declined. Jogurney (talk) 15:19, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 15:38, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 15:38, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 15:39, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Doesn't pass GNG - I found a bunch of other individuals with the same name (e.g. this pilot in the US, and in Sierra Leone a reporter and a number of other people) - but little on the footballer. Icewhiz (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - As an inclusionist, it is quite sad and disheartening when I see very old articles being put for AfD after all these years. This article was nominated for speedy deletion twice back in 2010. Once by @Wrwr1: (speedy rejected by @DGG:) and by @Alexf: (speedy rejected by @Phil Bridger:). So I am surprised why wasn't it taken to AfD at the time?Tamsier (talk) 16:48, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Tamsier: - back in 2010 there was a chance he's see playing time in Dolphins F.C. and develop a career - it was in TOOSOON zone - but soon was possibly right around the corner (WP:RAPID mayhap?). We're now in 2019 - this hasn't happened, and there is no prospect of this happening. Icewhiz (talk) 16:56, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I took the article to AfD because I don't think a PROD would be appropriate. Here editors have the time to check my research on sourcing, and perhaps I've missed some useful coverage that would meet the GNG. If not, this article has been in a sorry state for far too long. Jogurney (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Icewhiz:, but had it been brought to AfD at the time, its faith would have been decided by the community since we do not generally accept stand-alone articles which are in the WP:TOOSOON zone. We do not know (unless someone comes forward and disclose it here) whether an editor at the time saw WP:RS on/off-line but didn't bother to add them to the article and now such sources are taken off-line. I don;t know. Nobody knows. And it is not far fetched because I have witness for a number of years editors arguing for an article to be kept at AfD - providing great reliable sources in the discussion but without adding them to the article itself. I bet I'm not the only one who have seen that happen during AfD discussions. We now have no archive of sources which might have been available at the time but now nobody knows. If the community/editors at the time thought he was notable for a stand-alone, then he is still notable as notability is not temporary. However, that is merely conjecture because at the moment, nobody knows. Just because sources aren't available online does not mean a subject is not notable. They might be available off-line or might have been available online but were taken off. Also, for Africa, Google sometimes does not scan or takes time to provide African related sources. As such, we should be extremely careful when talking about lack of online sources for African related articles. All I know based on our articles and my limited knowledge of football is that, he played in a premier league club at the time. I would therfefore be following this discussion and looking forward to reading the arguments of the editors who were involved with this article all those years ago.Tamsier (talk) 17:57, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep If he plays for the team the article says (East End Lions F.C.), as a professional team it passes WP:NFOOTY. -- Alexf^(talk) 16:57, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that league is not fully-professional (see, WP:FPL). Potentially he has played in the Nigerian Professional Football League which is fully-pro, but it cannot be verified using reliable sources. Jogurney (talk) 17:01, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I said below regarding WP:FPL, "that link is an essay, not a policy. The 1 ref cited for Sierra Leone looks like a WP:SYNTH to me. Michael was talking about "the poor structure of "some" Premier League Clubs". I've read that article archived from last year, and there is nothing in that article authored by Awoko where Michael said that "Sierra Leone National Premier League is not a professional league" in the sense we understand professional for Wikipedia policies relating to football notability, unless of course I've missed it." Quote modified to avoid repeating myself.Tamsier (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete – Sierra Leone National Premier League is not a WP:FPL league, and no reliable sources attest to his playing in the Nigerian Football League (indeed, no sources at all that I can find, other than the one archived page from the now-defunct NigeraSportsWorld.com). I cannot find any non-routine coverage of the 27-year-old footballer, although I learned there are a lot of people named Mustapha Sesay. Doesn't pass WP:NFOOTY or WP:GNG. Leviv ich 20:08, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Really! Sorry, I'm contused, but who says "Sierra Leone National Premier League is not a WP:FPL league"? That link by the way is an essay, not a policy. The 1 ref cited for Sierra Leone looks like a WP:SYNTH to me. Michael was talking about "the poor structure of "some" Premier League Clubs". I've read that article archived from last year, and there is nothing in that article authored by Awoko where Michael said that "Sierra Leone National Premier League is not a professional league" in the sense we understand professional for Wikipedia policies relating to football notability, unless of course I've missed it.Tamsier (talk) 23:05, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The way I analyze it is: WP:NFOOTY says "2. Players who have played ... in a competitive game between two teams from fully-professional leagues, will generally be regarded as notable. See a list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football." with a link to WP:FPL (which stands for "Fully Professional League"). FPL says that SLNPL is not an FPL, with a link to a source, the Awoko article. [1] The source says, "...60% of the players don’t even have any professional contract with their clubs..." which suggests it is not a fully professional league, and thus playing in it doesn't meet NFOOTY. Now, I don't know if SLNPL is or is not a fully-professional league, and I don't think playing in a fully-professional league makes one notable anyway, so a much, much more important question for me is, as very well put in WP:42 and more formally in WP:GNG, can we write an article about Mustapha Sesay? and the answer is No because we have no sources from which to say anything other than to give his stats, which a reader can get from Soccerway. Leviv ich 23:24, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Does this footballer also go by the name of Yamusa Sesay (midfielder for East End Lions F.C.)? BBC Sports, National Football Teams, Afryka, FootballDatabase.Tamsier (talk) 21:02, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure Mustapha Sesay's name was reported as "Musa Sesay" in Sierra Leone. I'm less convinced that his name was also reported as "Yamusa Sesay." I found an article about an East End Lions' footballer named Abu Bakarr Sesay who died in 2014, who had one dozen brothers, including a "Mustapha Sesay." My best guess is Yamusa is not the same person as Mustapha/Musa, but even if he were, there is no significant coverage of Mustapha/Musa/Yamusa. It appears Yamusa did make a single substitute's appearance for Sierra Leone in January 2012 (friendly against Angola), but we don't have any vital information (such as date or birth) to confirm that he is Mustapha - moreover, a single substitute's appearance in an international friendly isn't enough to satisfy WP:NFOOTBALL without some significant coverage. Jogurney (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm! I probably disagree. I think it is the same person. The name, position, club, and years (especially some of the sources as shown in his own article, above and below) indicates that it is probably the same person who has different names but in the end decided to stick with Yamusa. His real name by the way is Mustapha, which is shorten to Musa which is very common in West Africa especially those with Muslim names. For example in the Senegambia region where there are loads of Sierra Leoneans who immigrated there (especially Gambia where Sierra Leoneans have immigrated to for over a 100 years), the Muslim/Arabic name Ibrahima is localised to Ebrima; Ibra; Ebou; and Ibrima. The name "Mustapha" is the same as Musa; and Moss. His surname "Sesay" which is the same as Sissay, Ceesay, and Ciss, tells me he comes from the Sessay clan which is a Mandinka surname. "Ya" is just a prefix for which the Mandinka and Mandé group are known for. Putting all that aside, I think in the early stages of his career he probably went by all those names but in the end decided to stick with Yamusa for what ever reason. The article tells us that he joint East End Lions in 2011. if you do a combined search for "Yamusa Sesay [or just Yamusa], "East End Lions", and any year prior to 2011, you will not find anything that matches the combined search. However, you will find Yamusa Sesay starting his career with East End Lions in 2011 as confirmed by this source. The chances of 2 different players with almost the same name, playing for the same club, playing on the same position (midfielder) and joining the club in the same year is practically nil. I admit, I'm not a mathematician so I will leave that to the mathematicians to give us the probability of that happening. WP:COMMONSENSE however tells me that the chances are minute. According to this 2010 source Mustapha Sesay was playing midfield for Dolphins FC as stated in our article. According to this BBC source, in May 2011, Yamusa Sesay from East End Lions (playing midfield) joint the Sierra Leonean team in preparation for the Africa Cup of Nations. That same year (2011), this source (month not given) uses Musa Sesay for the 2011 Sierra Leone Premier League. I even tried to do a check on there 2009/10 database for anyone by the name of Musa/Mustapaha Sesay or Yamusa Sesay, but there was none, only someone called Musa Fofanah which is definitely not our subject, but a different person. Currently, we have this Football Database telling us that Yamusa Sesay has been a member of East End Lions from 2011 (the same year our article told us he joint the club) to 2019, and was in the Sierra Leone team v Angola in 2012 in which Angola beat Sierra Leone 3 - 1. By 2013, we still have him using Musa Sesay according to this Sierra Leonean archived source when playing at home. I might be totally wrong, but this tells me in the early stages of his career he was probably known by all three names (Mustapha, Musa and Yamusa). It also tells me that, when he was playing home, he used all three names or was referred to by all 3 especially the first two. However when playing international or a foreign team, he adopted Yamusa or was called Yamusa - which he continued to use to the present as he got older and more mature. If you do a normal combined Google search for Yamusa Sesay, 2019, and East End Lions, you will at least find something that is recent. However if you substitute Yamusa for Musa/Mustapha, you will not find anything that is recent, only old stuff. In any case, I wish this article and the community luck as they decide its faith.Tamsier (talk) 02:08, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What really matters here is WP:SIGCOV. I'm willing to accept sources with Yamusa (or heck - any footballer with a similar name and bio details to the one in our article) - but what I want to see is 3-4 in-depth, independent, reliable, sources. The ones you provided with Yamusa are name drops in a list - which doesn't help us with SIGCOV. Icewhiz (talk) 10:40, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete he definitely exists, but I can't find anything on internet media to verify much other than he played at least once for a team in a non-fully professional league. He may have appeared for Sierra Leone but I can't find that either. Reluctant delete. SportingFlyer T·C 07:26, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 12:57, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 12:58, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.