Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Oksana Makar

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was nomination withdrawn. WWGB (talk) 01:50, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Murder of Oksana Makar[edit]

Murder of Oksana Makar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Reason

I think this page should be deleted. It describes events that happened within the last month that while did receive some coverage in English speaking media did not receive much coverage outside of the Ukraine (and there is an article in Russian about the same events that caters for local people ).

Too little time has passed to assess significance of the events.

The suspects who have been named on this page have not been convicted yet and their defence has not been herd yet.

While the case has received a considerable amount of media attention in the Ukraine over the last few weeks, objective coverage might also necessitate inclusion of information that might be adverse to the victim. Also once cirtain information about the victim and the family became known the amount of interest in the case has gone down considerably - so there is no reason to believe at this point in time that the interest in the case was not just a passing contemporaneous interest in news.

Given all this and the fact that Wikipedia is neither a newspaper, nor forum for campaigning, nor memorial site I propose that the page is deleted. Oxy20 (talk) 16:59, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I will say one thing as far as your argument goes. We do not delete articles because potentially negative things might come up about the victim that could put them into a negative light or could potentially hurt the feelings of their family members. If one of them came on here and specifically stated that they wanted the page removed then that's a different matter, but we can't really delete something because it could be negative for the person who died. As long as it's done objectively and isn't done as an attack, then it's within the bounds of Wikipedia to put both positive and negative things about the victim. As far as coverage goes, the coverage doesn't have to be entirely in English. If there's extensive coverage in another language that's considered to pass WP:RS, then it shows just as much notability as English sources would. I haven't viewed any of the sources, but I just wanted to voice this.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 17:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - multiple reliable sources exist, both Ukrainian and English language (including BBC), showing case is notable at home and internationally. The case has been huge in the Ukraine and led to mass public protests. Clearly notable and not run-of-the-mill. As to what the family might think - well, they went out of the way to get media coverage (Makar made a video while in hospital, before her death, asking for retribution for her attackers). I can only presume Oxy20 is thinking of the suggestions that Makar was a prostitute as being something that would upset the family - I've heard these rumours but they aren't (and haven't been) in the article. Lastly, I find it strange that Oxy20 created his/her account solely for the purpose of starting this AFD. Malick78 (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep While rapes aren't generally notable, the subsequent murder in this case received a wide response due to its cruelty and there was a controversy because not all suspects were charged. Brandmeistertalk 19:39, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Although it is a recent event, the international news coverage seems significant enough to provide notability. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 21:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. I draw your attention that the participant Oxy20 only today (April 5, 2012) registered in the "Wikipedia-Russian", "Wikipedia-English". And today Oxy20 began fighting for the removal of "Makar Oksana" on Wikipedia-English, Wikipedia-Russian.
Wikipedia-ru article on "Makar Oksana" was put up for deletion, but was abandoned a week ago. In the Ukraine has been experiencing political repression, and the authorities are trying to remove "any mention of the protests"!!
Oksana Makar has never been a prostitute. Oksana's sister is a doctor in a military hospital in the city of Nikolayev. Grandpa Oksana had the title of "Distinguished Teacher". In recent years, Oksana lived in the house with her grandmother (grandfather died.) Oksana's mother lived in Kiev. However, Oksana's father is a thief-recidivist, and now he is in prison for stealing a car. It is a fact.
Oksana Makar was not a prostitute. The reason for the murder - Oksana refused to love official Prysyazhnyuk. Customer was Prysyazhnyuk. Contractor was Krasnoshchek. The investigation revealed that the killers were preparing this crime a few months.
People in Nikolayev said that Oksana clonidine poisoning, and she seemed dead even when she was set on fire.
Protests arose because in the past year - there have been several similar cases when "members of parliament from Yanukovich's party" does not even have been convicted for the brutal murder (Demishkan) and the beating of a young lady (Landik).
Protests arose because Oksana tried to kill at the International Women's Day March 8.
500 people donated blood for Oksana. Collected about two hundred thousand dollars for treatment. He was buried near the monument to soldiers of World War II. Honors given to all managers in the region and President Yanukovych.
The newspaper «The New York Times" wrote, "Oksana Makar came into this world to open the eyes of Ukrainian society".--Vles1 (talk) 22:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Repply to Gene93kThe statements made by Gene93k turn this almost into a political discussion. There is as much evidence pointing to the fact that she was a prostitute and her mother, father and stepfather were criminals as there is evidence to support virtually any other statement on the article page. There are indicators that it has quite a major relevance to what has happened but it is to be heard in the Court of Law first and only then it can be ascertained as a fact. I understand there are quite a few campaigners from Ukraine here who use Wikipedia to make their political point. Russian version page is highly controversial and has been subject of editing wars and now is under NPOV. ________English version does not come anywhere close to that level of questionable content, however naming suspects before any trial, and referring to painters and plumbers as children of “ex-government officials from the Mykolayiv area who were connected to local politicians” is most certainly misleading. _______ If this page is kept it will have to be updated once court proceedings commence and things become much clearer. I suspect those updates will not be what strongly political users like Gene93k want to hear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxy20 (talk • contribs) 23:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - hi Oxy20, how about withdrawing the nomination to save people's time? Not a single person has agreed with you. If you think that in the future there's a neutrality issue, put a tag on it.Malick78 (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Major international attention for a rape case is unusual.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:52, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep This group rape, attempt to kill and finally murder got such a wide attention that the article should be kept. A simple Google Search for English spelling of "Oksana Makar" gives About 945,000 results and growing. On a side note, the nomination of by Oxy20 and subsequent tries to show how the victim was not a good person shows serious morale issues. what's up with the double standards? What, some people can be raped and killed and others shouldn't? He/she tries to find any excuse to delete the information from Wikipedia. I don't like how the nominator makes statements about others (Gene93k) and accuses Gene93k in some political views. We need to discuss articles and not Wikipeida users. Coming back to the article, the mention that Russian version is under the NPOV as of now is not true. Oleg Y. (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Repply to Oleg Yunakov Her being a prostitute as well as other illegality background is likely to have played a part in why this happened (and no this was not some sort of cleansing attack on prostitutes). Many other widely reported issues such as relating to the fundraising and fund allocation also have been omitted. If this is not a memorial site but an objctive article these issues - like it or not will have to be covered eventually. The Russian site does appear to have editing wars and NPOV is being taken in and out repeatedly. The Russian site which goes on to discuss what has happpned in extreme details based on dubious sources is clear non NPOV. The rules on that is clear - if some people think it is then it is very likely to be. This article is also probably non NPOV and once the Court hears the case in about 2 months time it might well require some changes. The problem is not too many people will want to make those changes and make the article NPOV. Just like on the Rusiian site now - some people (and yes myself included) recognise non-NPOV and are prepared to raise NPOV but no one appears to have a desire to write about it from NPOV at this point in time - not least because most people recognising NPOV issues do not want to write before the trial. Oxy20 (talk) 03:57, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. While the deceased individual is not notable, there is more than enough international media attention, and a range of reliable independent sources, to judge this topic to be notable. WWGB (talk) 03:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This event is notable in Ukraine. If it is notable in Ukraine, it is notable enough for Wikipedia. Remember Wikipedia is an international encyclopaedia. Wikipedia:Notability makes no mention of what language coverage in the media needs to be in. So the argument that it has less coverage in English than in Russian and Ukrainian is not relevant.--Toddy1 (talk) 05:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. I'm writing from Germany and a few days ago Oksana Makars fate was reported in the television news. I for one would keep it for the following reasons:
  1. a young women has been raped (doesn't matter if prostitute, married or whatsoever)
  2. it was three rapers
  3. the rapers thought she is dead i.e. that they successfully killed her
  4. the extreme cruelty of the deed
  5. the fact, that the rapers were set free at first because of intervention of their prominent parents
  6. in the Ukraine people are convinced that several crimes before also did not come to court because of corruption and nepotism
  7. the fact that Oksana Makar survived her tortures
  8. the fact that she could accuse those who did that to her
  9. the fact that she suffered forth in hospital (both legs and one arm amputated)
  10. her unshattered will to live despite all that
  11. her death
  12. her burial

One could take it for a greek tragedy but it's REAL. Oksana Makars fate could have impetus enough to show the world, that violation is not a peccadillo but a very serious crime with serious consequences for all those envolved.--Dudy001 (talk) 12:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. "Too little time has passed to assess significance of the events." - How much time passed since the event occurred is a good amount of time passed to assess significance? Is Wikipedia not supposed to simply state the fact? Human being passed away and cannot benefit from it for any mercantile reasons that would hurt Wikipedia. I am Ukrainian and realize that this tragedy is an echo of general moral state of Ukrainian society, as I was unfortunate enough to come across of moral inaptitude same origins. Now I see that this were symptoms of common and widespread plague. Whose fault is it that the tragedy became on the tip of everyone’s tongue as a result of brutal cruelty?--Datsyuk 15:06, 6 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datsyuk (talk • contribs)



  • Keep I agree that it should be kept. The reason for that is most certainly not any or even all those stated by Dudy001 as I reject that those or similar are good reasons to keep it. The reason is Notability - it has met that requirement. Therefore in line with the decision made on Russian version I agree that it is appropriate to keep it. Not that I now think that Wikipedia will benefit from this page - purely following rules and principles. I do draw attention to the fact that there have been editing wars on the Russian version and the article received a considerable amount of attention from administrators. It seems that they take a view similar to mine that only verifiable content should be included and the quality of that in order to accuse people has to be high – essentially a court verdict. I will be raising my disagreement over NPOV using NPOV process. I suggest the page is kept. Oxy20 (talk) 00:20, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nomination for deletion withdrawn - for the above reasons Oxy20 (talk) 00:27, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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