Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Milkshaking

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is no doubt the topic is well documented and sourced, the question of contention is if this topic is a subset of another, and should therefore be merged into the broader topic. Consensus is that it is separate, in that the "target" of the "milkshaking" is a specific group within a specific context, and therefore the topic should be treated independently. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 17:05, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Milkshaking[edit]

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Blatant example of WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS - this article is a WP:COATRACK for Conservative fantasies of concrete milksakes and other silliness. WP:DYNAMITE applies, with anything of worth being easily transferred to Antifascism. Simonm223 (talk) 12:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - Yes, this is a relatively recent cultural phenomenon but it has already received plentiful coverage in independent, reliable sources. See the following: 1 2 3 4. This is a cultural phenomenon that has now received ~3 months of coverage in reliable sources and as such is an easy pass for WP:GNG. Moreover, a redirect to antifascism is not at all appropriate because not all of the people who have been milkshaked are indisputably fascist. WP:DYNAMITE does not apply because this article is eminently savable. Page quality issues should be addressed on the article's talk page as AFD is not cleanup The nominator appears to be an American who has only heard of milkshaking because of the recent events in the United States, and is ignoring the existence of the phenomenon in the United Kingdom for a number of months before it made it across the pond. FOARP (talk) 12:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Query - is this a distinct phenomena from Pieing? (is there a political/semantic significance for this being a milkshake? Or to particular flavors?). Perhaps this could be merged/redirected over there? Icewhiz (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly it is a distinct phenomenon, both due to the separation of the popularity of these phenomenon in time (pieing had it's heyday in the 1990's-2000's, the latest incident mentioned on the page about Pieing is from 2011) and due to obvious difference that a milkshake is not a pie. "Milkshaking" does not belong under "pieing" because it does not involve a pie and is not "the act of throwing a pie at a person" (i.e., the definition of "pieing" given on that page). FOARP (talk) 13:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How are either "pieing" or "milkshaking" distinct phenomena from just generally throwing food at someone? Whether it's pies, milkshakes, eggs, rotten tomatoes, or fettuccine carbonara. Changing the food item doesn't change the nature of the act.--Khajidha (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (edit conflict)WP:LASTING exists for a reason. The second somebody throws some other novel foodstuff at a fascist the entire media landscape is going to forget about milkshaking; it's a meme, virtually the antithesis of a lasting and encyclopedically relevant phenomenon. And it's not particularly distinct from pieing as an overall phenomenon, in response to Icewhiz's question. Simonm223 (talk) 13:00, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LASTING says: "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect", this phenomenon has already been around for ~3 months and is still receiving coverage, hence it is an easy pass for WP:LASTING. FOARP (talk) 13:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- ETA The nominator is not an american and I would ask that FOARP avoid making assumptions about me without even bothering to check my userpage where I lay out most of these sorts of questions about myself in painstaking detail. I am perfectly aware of the Nigel Farage milkshake incident and laughed on Twitter about it like everybody else; but what's appropriate for an afternoon of schadenfreude on Twitter is generally not appropriate for an exhaustive article on Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for my error. In my defence, your original nom only mentioned the American side of the story, and the proposal to redirect to Antifascism was odd because it is only in the US that antifa have used this. Only referring to the (much more recent) American side of the story when discussing a British phenomenon that is now some months old is likely to lead people to think that that is where you come from. FOARP (talk) 13:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Has been around for a few months, it's not exactly the fad that the nominator is trying to make it seem. Has garnered plenty of coverage in the media, ever since the (probably) first incident of its kind, in early May.^[1]. It's distinct from Pieing through its narrow focus. While pieing generally targeted authority focus, it didn't have a the political focus that milkshaking has through its targeting of far-right political actors. And more importantly, the page is useful. Because it is such a talked about phenomenon, many people will want to read about it, its history and purpose, and Wikipedia should provide the means to do so, rather than sending users away with nothing. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:20, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Very much a WP:RECENTISM issue. The concept of throwing food at people as a form of protest is much, much older than this. And there is nothing to indicate this is a specific topic, rather than just another form of throwing a pie, eggs or other messy food at someone to indicate displeasure. At best, any relevant content could be merged into Protest or another relevant topic, but there's nothing to indicate this has enough legs to stand on as an independent article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:00, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - when Paul Crowther threw a milkshake over Nigel Farage, he was obviously following a trend; Wikipedia provides a useful resource for people wanting to know "why a milkshake, specifically?". [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.3.210.135 (talk) 16:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Parveen, Nazia (2 May 2019). "Tommy Robinson doused in milkshake for second time in two days". The Guardian. Retrieved 4 July 2019.

Keep - Notable and encyclopedic. Cheerio042 (talk) 19:43, 4 July 2019 (UTC) Blocked sock. Britishfinance (talk) 09:49, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - It's received significant coverage, just look at the ref list. Anne drew (talk) 00:49, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please see the reason provided for the AfD. WP:RECENTISM allows for a flurry of coverage on a topic without WP:LASTING notability. Today it's milkshakes. But in ten weeks, when somebody tosses a plate of fettuccine carbonara all over Nigel Farage, the media isn't going to give two shits about milkshakes anymore. That's what makes it inappropriate for an encyclopedia. It's ephemera. Simonm223 (talk) 12:05, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. WP:TNT does not apply, references are solid. Something may be deleted, but not the whole article. This practice is certainly more violent than average; has anyone ever put cement in a pie or in an egg? wumbolo ^^^ 13:34, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The strength of the RS on this topic convinces me – this article is "drowning" in Tier 1 WP:RSP from around the world (e.g. Washington Post, NYT, The Guardian, The Independent) that has the topic in the title, and are clear WP:SIGCOV pieces. I don't see a case of WP:TNT – it needs to be unambiguous for TNT to prevail at AfD given WP:NOTCLEANUP. Arguments around WP:RECENTISM are not compelling enough given the strength of interest from quality RS around the world in the topic, and that the use of "Milkshaking" shows no sign of stopping. I think a reader would expect to find a Wikpedia article on this highly notable topic (would love to see a "list" of notable Milkshaking events in this article). Britishfinance (talk) 10:21, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I have updated the "See also" section – WP has articles on: Egging, Flour bombing, Glitter bombing, Inking (attack), Pieing, Shoe-throwing, Zapping and Zelyonka attack (and these are just the ones I have found so far). Britishfinance (talk) 18:33, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it's a thing. Sources exist.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, although articles like this can easily become coatracks (and some material might be pruned from this one), there are plenty of sources cited in the article discussing the phenomenon itself, it is notable. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please see the reason provided for the AfD. WP:RECENTISM, this article is a WP:COATRACK for Conservative fantasies of concrete milksakes and other silliness. So I dont think this is a distinct phenomena or a political/semantic significance. --SalmanZ (talk) 21:54, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Victim blaming conservatives is not a policy-based WP:DELREASON. wumbolo ^^^ 07:31, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or merge to egging. The fact that this is a different foodstuff is trivial, the act of throwing food at a person to show contempt or displeasure is the same no matter what food is used. --Khajidha (talk) 12:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Egging is the act of throwing eggs at people or property" - clearly Milkshaking does not fit this definition. Morevoer, as pointed out above, these phenomena are related to different times (Milkshaking is a 2019 phenonmenon) and different targets (egging targets all politicians, whilst Milkshaking so far only targets the far right). FOARP (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, being different foods is ttivial. A section titled "similar attacks" could cover mklkshaking, pieung, etc. And there is no reason to expect all milkshake attacks to remain gocused on the far right. Throwing food at someone to show displeasure is way older than this. Even some of the sources in this article state that the use of milkshakes is probably due to the ease of carrying them into the area without drawing the attention that a carton of eggs would, demonstrating yhat this is the same phenomenon. --Khajidha (talk) 10:03, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

this may be a WAX-y argument, but we already have separate pages on Pieing, Egging, Toilet papering, Shoe-throwing, Green-paint-ing - so why not Milkshaking? And just which of the many articles dealing with throwing things at politicians is the ur-article to which everything else should be redirected/merged? FOARP (talk) 10:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Other stuff exists" is an especially poor argument when you haven't established that your opponent agrees that the other stuff should exist. At least as far as the food-throwing goes, it makes much more sense to have a central Throwing food as a protest page than to subdivide it down by food type. I mean, what if one of these "milk-shaking" incidents was revealed to have actually used a frapuccino. Or a Wendy's frosty. Would you separate them out from here? --Khajidha (talk) 16:32, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would say "go with the sources", and the sources treat this as a distinct, new phenomenon. FOARP (talk) 07:26, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Improves our coverage of other articles and meets WP:GNG. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:22, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets GNG. Bondegezou (talk) 23:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep or Merge to Food-throwing. This is a silly article, but it does meet GNG. I can't see policy grounds for deletion, and it seems there is little appetite for a merge (and egging and pieing are too specific, and protest seems way too wide). Seeing that we don't have a "food throwing article" (though it seems we have at least 3 article - so we could have a category perhaps) - seems this is a keep. Icewhiz (talk) 10:08, 10 July 2019 (UTC) Added support for merge.Icewhiz (talk) 13:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If someone creates Food-throwing (or some other similar title) - I'll support a merge there. Oddly we don't have Tomato throwing (it's a redirect to La Tomatina). Icewhiz (talk) 12:14, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 12:24, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with egging and pieing into a new article such as Food-throwing and a list of food-throwings, limited to incidents involving notable people. This is all the same phenomenon, only the food seems to change depending on what is available and in vogue. Sandstein 10:20, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I already voted "keep" but I'd be okay with a merge of this and other articles too, however, AfD isn't the right venue for that discussion. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 12:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I though about a merge but not convinced; some of the motives for the actions are very diverse – Milkshaking is political, Egging is general protest, Pieing and Flour bombing are mostly humourous. In addition, why would we seperate Milkshaking from other forms of non-harmful political throwing attacks such as Inking (attack), Glitter bombing and even Zelyonka attack. And we haven't even touched Tomato throwing? Bottom line is I don't think that a merger will help the reader, as the act of it being "food" that is thrown is not sufficiently unifying enough to be a compelling merge? However, I do think a well constructed NavBox could help the reader to navigate through these actions? Britishfinance (talk) 16:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ink, glitter, eggs, milkshakes are not "non harmful". E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:14, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Extremely well researched and supported. Iamorangelightning (talk) 16:13, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. On the basis of reliable sources "Milkshaking" would have to be considered an established social phenomenon. Bus stop (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, This is not a common way of protesting but can be considered as one way of protesting that has happened , so can be merged into articles about protesting, Alex-h (talk) 21:13, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see the advantages of merging all of these into a single page. A page documenting the rise and fall of fads for throwing everything from rotten tomatoes to shoes, glitter, and sticky milkshakes at people as a form of physically aggressive protest might be worth writing. But a merging all of these pages into one would be so large a topic that it woudl inevitibly violate WP:PRESERVE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, we really need some basis in reliable sources for believing that these are all the same phenomenon. But this is not what the sources say - instead they treat this as a new, specifically targeted cultural phenomenon. FOARP (talk) 09:12, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From the article itself: "Philosopher Benjamin Franks suggested that the use of particular foodstuffs in political protest had historically been a practical matter, noting that whilst "nowadays, carrying raw eggs to a nationalist meeting would require some backstory to justify it if challenged by the police", until recently carrying a milkshake would not have aroused the same suspicion." and "He also highlighted the history of using "small and harmless projectiles" like eggs to being a sense of theatricality to political campaigning in Britain, holding that acts of milkshaking did not exceed this level of controversy." --Khajidha (talk) 11:41, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment as nominator I would also support merge into a central food-throwing article. Simonm223 (talk) 13:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at least for now. Media coverage has persisted into early July, and there are plenty of sources to establish notability and flesh out a complete article. The article does need work in a number of areas, and careful eyes on NPOV. If everybody's forgotten this in a month or two, there are no obstacles to renominating, but I think it's too early to delete simply on the basis of WP:NOTNEWS. —Rutebega (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Unfortunately this is a notable phenomenon in politics of late; there's enough coverage to pass WP:GNG and it has lasted long enough to outlive WP:NOTNEWS.LM2000 (talk) 12:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - notable enough. Störm (talk) 13:58, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: User:Störm already closed this AfD as keep; cf. also here. ——SerialNumber54129 14:38, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Although I am not quite certain why this is listed at discussions about food, I am certain that the fuss over milkshake throwing has been a very big political deal in recent years.WaterwaysGuy (talk) 23:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep More relevant than ever. Loganmac (talk) 03:57, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - we have distinct articles on other forms of throwing ostensibly harmless foodstuffs at politicians as a form of political protest and activism. This one is novel both in the fact that the projectile is unique, and that the targets are specifically white nationalists (which, as far as I've understood, is the reason that milkshakes are the projectile of choice). I wouldn't object to the various articles being merged into a common topic, but that needs to be an all-or-nothing approach with a broad consensus, not a merger of one or two out of the lot. If the notable topic is being used as a coatrack, then fix it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:38, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets GNG. - MA Javadi (talk) 21:51, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the article meets WP:GNG. - Jacobz1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[1] Parveen, Nazia (2 May 2019). "Tommy Robinson doused in milkshake for second time in two days". The Guardian. Retrieved 4 July 2019.

[1]