Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mennen Arena

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mennen Arena[edit]

Mennen Arena (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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This arena is used primarily by families for recreational purposes. There are numerous ice skating rinks that do the same. Its not a notable facility. Denassq (talk) 02:05, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Major arena's are definitely notable. Especially ones that have hosted professional sports teams. -DJSasso (talk) 17:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per DJSasso. Patken4 (talk) 22:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


*Delete I can't say that this a "notable" arena. The arena itself does not even have an official website. It is referenced through a local parks commission site in the county to which its located within New Jersey, as displayed here. Within that site, it even highlights the following statement: The arena is a full service ice center with skating year round. It offers public sessions, group lessons, hockey clinics, figure skating clubs and birthday party packages. In the state of New Jersey alone, there are upwards of probably 100 ice skating rinks. I did a quick search on Google, and a website lists over 70 of them here. They pretty much have the same thing in common; they are all family oriented, and not notable. And thats just New Jersey. For the rest of America, there are thousands of ice skating rinks that cater to the general public. None of them are notable, and none of them deserve inclusion into wikipedia. Denassq (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Any Arena/Ballpark/Stadium that hosts a professional team is notable. Not all those rinks you mention will have done that. Which makes it a notable arena. -DJSasso (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I beg to disagree with your classification of a "professional team". First of all, the National Indoor Football League is a defunct league. And by some accounts could hardly even be considered as a mainstream professional athletic association. Second, on the page for the New Jersey XTreme, there's absolutely no reliable sourcing to even indicate that the team played at the Mennen Arena to begin with! It's completely unsourced material. Denassq (talk) 02:53, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whether it is defunct or not is irrelevant. Notability is not temporary. And there is no qualification that it needs to be mainstream. Notability does not equal popularity. A professional team is any team that plays in a professional league. I would note the Xtreme were not the only professional team that played there. -DJSasso (talk) 04:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, as I mentioned earlier, is there a reliable source to even corroborate that the Xtreme played there? I have yet to see one. As far as notability is concerned, a good example would be in music. There are thousands of bands that are out there and have some minor success like an album or two, a loyal fan base and a media page perhaps on MySpace or Facebook. However, sometimes even possessing that criterea is not sufficient to be included in wikipedia. There have been numerous debates to verify notability on that subject. If your best friend is in a band, and they have an album out on an independent record label and have played the local bar scene, it still doesn't necessarily make them notable. This subject is still open for debate. Are there other users with differing opinions? Denassq (talk) 14:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • And I'm not quite sure I understand your reference to music. There are a LOT more bands playing around North America than there are professional sports teams. There could easily be 100,000+ bands playing in North America, and that number could be low. There are probably less than 1,000 professional sports team in North America. Patken4 (talk) 16:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention in your analogy the buddies playing the local bar scene would be all the local amateur sports teams. The professional sports teams would be the people who are the rock stars played on the radio where the minor league teams are probably the one hit wonders and the big 4 major leagues are the legends of rock. One hit wonders are just as notable as the legends. -DJSasso (talk) 22:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just a FYI, I'm not sure that you, as the requestor, needs to state that you think the article should be deleted. That would be assumed since you requested it. Thanks! Patken4 (talk) 23:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. Patken4, I'm entitled and allowed the courtesy to insert the delete term and to follow up and explain why I think the page deserves deletion. Likewise, I don't think it was necessary for you to insert as your first comment on the page the following: *Keep per DJSasso. It's not a constructive edit to just agree with somebody without explaining your individual reasoning. Now getting back to the discussion, Djsasso, I agree with the concept that you mentioned as per the following: the buddies playing the local bar scene would be all the local amateur sports teams. But again, that particular criterea doesn't always merit inclusion into wikipedia. I think this needs a more open discussion with other users. We need a consensus. Not just your opinion, with your friend tagging along for the ride. If a host of other users agree and insert factual information for which the page deserves inclusion, then thats the way it should be. But at this particular time, I don't see that. Denassq (talk) 23:57, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you'll want to read Wikipedia:WikiProject Event Venues/Sports task force/Notability. Consensus has been reached about what constitutes a notable sports venue. Patken4 (talk) 01:06, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If their reasoning was the same as mine there isn't much point in repeating... What kind of factual information do you want. Its a long held standard that already has consensus across the wiki that all venues that housed a professional team are notable. Not much more to say other than that. But you are right the Afd will stay open for a few more days so others if they see something will have a chance to have their say and then an administrator will close it. -DJSasso (talk) 03:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What exactly don't you think is verifiable? There are links in this very discussion verifying what I think you are talking about... -DJSasso (talk) 19:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The NJ.com source fails WP:RS for me, it's just a collection of photos with three lines of text. The arena is not the primary topic of those three lines, either. The other one, CIFL football, is not a third-party source as it is directly associated with the topic. According to the article here, the team only played one game there - hardly a glowing endorsement of notability. This second source also fails to support anything else mentioned in the article. To continue, this second source is actually saying that there will be something there in the future, not a solid confirmation that anything is actually done, other than the aforementioned one game in 2005. So, all in all, quite a lot of reasons for me to question these sources. Cloudz679 05:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:10, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This obviously isn't just some place to take the family ice skating. GNews turns up hundreds of news stories about events at this venue, including not only plenty of stories about indoor football games e.g.[1][2][3][4][5] but also competitive skating championships[6], dog shows[7], concerts[8] Also its alternative-energy issues have gotten attention in reliable sources[9] including this 2011 story from CNET[10]. --Arxiloxos (talk) 23:59, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete. Although I'd like to, I'm not really inclined to change my mind with those examples given. The amateur football are really hardly considered mainstream professional sports in America. Most of the country has hardly even heard of these indoor leagues. Its entirely questionable whether they are considered notable to begin with. In addition to the fact some of those leagues or teams don't even exist anymore, as well as their play at the ice skating rink was limited to begin with. The other examples given speak for themselves. Whats notable about dog shows? Here is a link to upcoming dog events in New Jersey. The venues where they are taking place are not notable in the slightest. As far as the alternative energy piece is concerned, here is an article about a Regional Water Treatment Plant in the Jersey area thats installing solar panels to more efficiently utilize their power needs. But that particular Treatment Plant is not notable. The installation of solar panels doesn't make it notable. And as far as the concert is concerned, big deal. Sarah Lee Guthrie also played the Folk Music Society of Huntington at 30 Washington Drive in Centerport, NY on November 5. The Folk Music Society of Huntington is not a notable venue. She's also playing Tillet Gardens in the Virgin Islands. Thats not a notable venue either. The Mennen Arena is like dozens of other ice skating family-oriented recreational facilities across New Jersey, and the rest of the country for that matter. Denassq (talk) 16:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Double !vote. (Triple if you count nom.) -DJSasso (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I'm sorry. Next time, I'll be more careful. I'll just write down my notes. I won't insert the delete tag for a 4th or 5th time. Denassq (talk) 16:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: There's enough coverage of this venue to show notability. [11][12], among others. Its locally apparently a big deal.--Milowent • hasspoken 04:48, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The links you provided don't really account for notability. The first link denotes the following: Youth hockey leagues, figure skating instruction, pickup games, open public skating, high school games. There's nothing notable about those attributes. The second link is not a big deal. See above. I already provided a link and described a similar situation with a non-notable facility doing the same here. Denassq (talk) 14:17, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstand what notability is in wikipedia terms. Notable simply means have been written about in reliable sources. If something has then it is notable for the inclusion in wikipedia. So whether or not you think its not a big deal doesn't matter, if its been written about then wikipedia considers it notable. -DJSasso (talk) 17:27, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - a county facility used for local and amateur sporting events. Bearian (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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