Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marcos Avellan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Divest1987, if you want this page to be userfied so you can work on it some more, contact me or another admin.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Marcos Avellan

Marcos Avellan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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On notability grounds Peter Rehse (talk) 10:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

My apologies, I'm very new to editing Wikipedia articles. This entry was written by me. I've been working extensively on it. I believe this person to be notable enough to warrant an entry considering he's a gym owner that trains professional fighters for organizations such as Strikeforce, BoDog, and Bellator. He's also an author of the book Black Belt Psychology. If there's more information I can add that would help this article avoid deletion, I would be more than happy to answer. As I said, I'm brand new to Wikipedia and I'm finding it very difficult to navigate. Perhaps someone could help out with the editing for me? Divest1987 (talk) 20:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Divest1987. You need to familiarize yourself with the Wikipedia's policies and guidelines (especially the notability guidelines). The main problem of this article is the lack of third-party, reliable sources for the article's content, as the only source currently present in the article is his Sherdog's profile, which only provides his MMA record and other statistics (height, weight, etc). If you believe you can improve the article but don't have enough time until the debate's conclusion, you can request userfication and when/if it meets the general notability guideline (GNG) standard you can re-submit the article. As he also is/was an athlete, i also would like to point the sports notability guideline. But remember, contributions to Wikipedia cannot contain original research. Poison Whiskey 16:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I've added about 8 more 3rd party soures. Hopefully that will be enough to keep the page around. Please let me know if I need more or if there's anything else I can do to improve the article. I'm going to be continuously working on it. Divest1987 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 10:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 11:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 11:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• Delete (or userfy) — Despite his extensive grappling background, i couldn't find enough coverage in reliable sources to pass WP:GNG. He is/was also a mixed martial artist, but doesn't meet WP:NMMA criteria. I'm willing to change to keep if the sourcing is improved. Poison Whiskey 16:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I've added about 8 more 3rd party soures. Hopefully that will be enough to keep the page around. Please let me know if I need more or if there's anything else I can do to improve the article. I'm going to be continuously working on it. Divest1987 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Divest1987 (talk • contribs)

I've added about 15 sources total. Hopefully that will be enough. Divest1987 (talk) 17:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I've checked all sources added and this was my conclusion:

Third-party, reliable: GracieMag issue no. 191 (summary found at thejiujitsuway.com)

Third-party, reliable, but unrelated (has nothing about the subject): MMAjunkie.com

Third-party, reliable, but only statistics: rottentomatoes.com (celebrities section)

Not sure, but between borderline reliable and questionable: lapelchoke.com, jiujitsumania.com

Self-published or questionable sources: lockflow.com, youtube.com (his academy's channel), fightingthai.com

Blogs and forums: grapplersquest.com, nhbgear.com (forum section), thejiujitsuway.com, fiumartialarts.com

— sources like MMAjunkie.com or GracieMag (sources don't need to be available online) are the way to go. Self-published sources or blogs — if reliable — can help towards verifiability, but won't help to determine the notability. I'll maintain my vote for the time being and wait for the input of other users. Poison Whiskey 17:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand. Some of the videos I've used on the channel are copies of news sources. They're hosted on the FFA channel for YouTube, but they're still copies of news broadcasts. I don't see how this doesn't qualify as a 3rd party source. If I just listed it as an offline source, would that make it 3rd party? I can also reference magazines that aren't available online. The more magazines the more notable this becomes? It also doesn't make sense to me that we have SEVERAL Wikipedia pages about fighters that Marcos Avellan has TRAINED and GIVEN RANK to, yet he's not notable enough to warrant his own page? That doesn't quite make any sense. I'll continue adding references and sources, but I'd like for someone else to review the article and give their opinion/vote on the situation. Is there an appeal process this can go through? This is craziness. Divest1987 (talk) 20:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• Weak Delete Does not have the significant independent coverage from reliable sources required to meet WP:GNG. Clearly doesn't meet WP:NMMA. There's not enough to show notability for grappling. According to the NAGA website results, his second at the NAGA worlds was out of 3 competitors, so he might not have even won a match. Who he's trained or given rank to is WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS says that it's irrelevant what other articles exist.Mdtemp (talk) 21:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I've added more sources, this time verifiable 3rd party sources via OnTheMat.com. These sources verify who Marcos has trained and also his titles that he's won as a grappler. I would like another editor to review the page and give their input as to what I could add, please. Poison Whiskey, please let me know if there's anything else I can add that would help my case. Thank you. Divest1987 (talk) 21:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I've just added another source, straight from the UFC website itself, where a former WEC title contender talks about The Freestyle Fighting system and references Marcos Avellan. Divest1987 (talk) 22:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

There's about 38 references now and I've added about 10 3rd party sources today alone. Let me know if this is sufficient. Divest1987 (talk) 22:52, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Marcos Avellan has coached many fighters, most on TV and in major organizations. I've included references to all of them. How many fighters does an MMA coach need to be on TV/major organizations before he's "notable"? That's a legitimate question. There's more fighters I can add. Let me know what number of fighters would make a notable coach and I'll add that many. Thanks. Divest1987 (talk) 22:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Legitimate question: How many UFC fighters does a person need to have coached to be considered notable in the sport of mixed martial arts? Divest1987 (talk) 00:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Mdtemp: Who Avellan has trained definitely counts as notability! The coach is very NOTABLE in any sport. Are you saying that Teddy Atlas, Cus D'Amato, Emanuel Steward, and Angelo Dundee are not notable because neither of them had ever fought a single pro fight? In MMA, are you saying that Greg Jackson is not notable? I don't think he has even competed in a grappling match. Divest1987 (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Avellan has cornered in the UFC... he has trained NINE referenced UFC Fighters (there are two more I am working on referencing), he has trained NINE Zuffa fighters (UFC, TUF, and WEC) and four referenced Bellator and Strikeforce Fighters... plus he himself is a referenced national grappling champion, his brother is a ADCC Bronze Medalist - and he has coached a two-time grappling coach for the ultimate fighter (3-0 pro fighter) and FILA World Champion Jason Soares... What else needs to be done to prove notability? How many more UFC fighters or world class grapplers? Does? need an Olympic medalist? (serious question). Divest1987 (talk) 00:51, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• Weak Delete It's a stretch to compare Angelo Dundee (who trained 16 boxing world champions) to a guy who's trained 9 Zuffa fighters in grappling. I'm not seeing significant independent coverage--the Graciemag article was by, not about, him and was featured based on him being a successful businessman ("Think big, be bold!" "The owner of an MMA academy he says brings over $1 million per year and author of the compelling book Black Belt Psychology shares pointers"). That's not enough to show notability. Passing mentions in articles as being an MMA fighter's grappling coach and routine sport coverage aren't significant either.204.126.132.231 (talk) 20:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

You obviously didn't check the sources and references I posted. At this point, I'm realizing this page is simply being trolled and we're going to be reporting it for WP:Disruptive Editing. If anyone would like to add some constructive advice and wants to actually take the article serious, i'm all ears. Divest1987 (talk) 17:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Seems like you misinterpreted the guidelines, but i'll assume that you missed them. I recommend you to reread my first comment (where i say "hello" to you) and click on the blue links (they'll redirect you to the guidelines). You don't need to worry, this discussion will still go on for a day or two (at least) before closing and even if the article is deleted, there are ways to restore it. For further information, take a look at this essay: WP:Why was the page I created deleted? and also, please assume good faith. Poison Whiskey 18:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm doing my best to assume good faith, I really am, but I've done my best to provide third-party references and sources. At this point, I've got about 30-something sources and about half of them are third-party. I went on a long hunt to make sure that I found more sources. I've asked many questions, let me recap:

• How many third-party sources do I truly need? Is 15 not enough?
• How many MMA fighters does Avellan need to have coached to be considered notable? He's even coached an Olympic Bronze Medalist!
• If 15 third-party sources and numerous grappling tournament victories aren't sufficient, then how do you explain the selective editing in letting a page like Randy Jean exist? He has literally two sources and has done nothing of notability, yet he's been allowed to remain. Or how about Shawn Williams or Alberto Crane (who technically has only had TWO fights in the UFC, therefore doesn't meet the incredibly subjective MMA guidelines)?

Divest1987 (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm here from the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, where Divest tried to seek dispute resolution for this discussion. We don't do that there (any disputes here will be resolved by the closing editor or sysop), but without expressing any opinion about whether or not this article ought to be retained, I thought that I'd at least answer his questions:

• In theory one source is enough if it's good enough, though two is probably the actual absolute minimum. The problem that's being alleged is that the ones you've added are not good enough. It's not enough that they're third-party, they must meet the test of a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia. (Remember that while two may be enough to establish notability, that every assertion in the article which is challenged or might be challenged must be supported by a reliable source.)
• The number of fighters coached is irrelevant to notability. Notability is determined by the existence of significant material in reliable sources. In general, see the general notability guideline.
• What happens in some other article is irrelevant to your article. Each article stand or falls on its own. It could well be that Randy Jean deserves to be deleted, too (thought I wouldn't know, I haven't looked at it). For a fuller explanation, see WP:OTHERSTUFF.

What you're struggling with is that Wikipedia is actually very complicated and it's very difficult even for an experienced editor to write an article. For someone who just comes in and tried to do it first thing, it can be exceptionally frustrating. You might benefit from reading my Advice to New Users. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Transporterman, I appreciate your help. Thanks for taking the time to check out this particular dispute. I do understand the importance of high quality references but that is where, in my opinion, the abusive editing is taking place. For example, Gracie Magazine is one of the most popular martial arts magazines currently circulated around the world. Marcos had his name on the cover and had a full two-page spread (that we referenced). The video that we referenced of the news coverage was a full piece about Marcos and his gym which was done by Emmy-award winning reporter Jennifer Santiago. I've also referenced his winning of a national title and an entry into the world's most prestigious grappling tournament in the world, which is the Abu Dhabi Combat Club aka ADCC. This is the top ranked tournament in the world. Quite frankly, Marcos, with his grappling credentials alone, has notability. On top of that, he is a business consultant, which was also mentioned in the Gracie Magazine, to business owner's across the United States. He is an author of Black Belt Psychology, which is also referenced in the Gracie article. And he has fought 3 professional MMA fights and coached countless professional fighters for professional organizations such as UFC, Strikeforce, and Bellator. I don't know if it's significant or notable, but he also has a YouTube channel with over 1.7 million views; he is a well-known figure in the martial arts community. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to reference magazines because he has been referenced in over a dozen magazines while being featured on the cover several times. And I don't know if this helps, but he just got accepted as a contributing author on LiveStrong.com and his first articles are coming out in a couple weeks. Divest1987 (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Just add the magazine's name, article's title, author, date, etc. As i said before, the references don't need to be available online (in other words, don't need to be external links). Poison Whiskey 22:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.