- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep (merge should be discussed separately at article talk page). Chick Bowen 01:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Naharin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
There is already a clear reference in the Nairi article as well as the Mitanni article, which show that Naharin was the Egyptian name for Nairi. Thus, this article is unnecessary. Moosh88 03:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The term 'Naharin' is used by Egyptologists for the Ancient Egyptian reference for Mitanni. The word Naharin is also used clearly in this web site: [36] Naharin was just the Ancient Egyptian term for this kingdom. Leoboudv 03:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep As an Aside, the respected English Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen also employs the term Naharin for Mitanni in his paper here in honor of the memory of William Murnane here: see the bottom paragraph of page 5 here [37] where he refers to "List A covers major powers and places from Assur, Sangara (Babylon) and Naharin (Mitanni) in the east through Syrian Carchemish..." If Kitchen can use the term Naharin, Wikipedia should permit it too. It is just the Egyptian reference for the Mitannian kingdom, nothing more. Leoboudv 03:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge and redirect with Mitanni; I concur with previous posts that this term should remain in Wikipedia, but the page will never grow beyond its current stubby nature, whereas the Mitanni article is long and lush. Pray let us guide people to that which is useful... Alba 04:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Change to keep; more pixels have now been spilled in defense of this page than the page contained. Take it to Talk:Naharin and improve the article, k? Alba 04:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Mitanni as alternative name. Certainly no reason to have a separate article, no objection to merge if someone sees mergeable content. --Tikiwont 14:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The page as currently worded does not fully encompass what Naharin is. This merits alteration, not deletion. Aram Naharin is a geographical entity referring to the northern part of Mesopotamia between the Tigris and Euphrates and not directly to the Political state of Mitanni, and certainly not to the neighboring region north of the Tigris named Nairi by the Assyrians. Deleting Naharin because there is an article on Mitanni would be somthing akin to deleting Anatolia because we have an article on Turkey. Naharin has notability beyond merely being the synonym of Mitanni in the Egyptian Language. It also shows up in academic literature as the area of an Assyrian vassal provence in post-mitannian times, as well as appearing in the book of Judges as the homeland out of which Cushan opressed the Israelites. Moosh's assertation that Naharin is mearly an egyptian word for Nairi is also demonstratably in error. Naharin refers to the area between the two rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates. Nairi, on the other hand, can be seen on any map to be the region due north of Assyria on the north side of the Tigris across the river from Subartu. George Roux's Ancient Iraq page 279 places it up there, as well as his map of Northern Mesopotamia and Ancient Syria in the appendix of his book. It is erronious to say that this is a synonym for Mitanni or Nairi, and a merge would be misleading. Thanatosimii 17:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even the reference that Leobdv gave of Naharin, says "Mitanni was "Indo-European" (Hurrian) people[38], that Hurrian is not some different entity from Mitanni. He also said that Nairi and Naharin are the same people (see the Mitanni edit history). Showing that it was not just Indo-Aryans, but other related groups, such as the Armenians. Also, the Mitanni names with "Arta" prefix like Artatma etc. are not Indo-Aryan; the majority of linguistics, including Colin Renfrew (Anatolian theory of Indo-Europeans professor), Ivonav and Georgian Tamaz, and many others, put the Greco-Armeno-Aryan group of Indo-Europeans together during the 3rd millenium BC, revealing that "Arta" was not just Indo-Iranian, but with the Ar root of Armenian and it was ancient Armenian, in the group that was Armeno-Aryan. That was the common language of that group together as Greco-Armeno-Aryan, they had the Arta prefix , before they split, So its not just Indo-Aryan. The distinct Kura-Araxes culture's (Aratta) pottery has been found in Mitanni and associated with Mitanni, and this culture excisted around the 3rd Mil. BC. So the Kura-Arax (Aratta) spread to the region of Mitanni earlier , and this all showing an Indo-European presence, cause Mitanni was Indo-European, and earlier Kura-Arax culture showing Indo-European links with Mitanni. With all this, we have the 3rd millenium and 2nd millenium BC, records of Armenians in Mitanni. However, I am not saying Armenians were the only ones there, but that they participated in the establishment of the kingdom. It's clear that some of the gods were Indo-Aryan, such as Indra. The Mitanni pantheon had many Indo-Aryan gods, but the kings were not Indo-Aryan for the most part, such as Artatama.
Also, the "Arta" prefix is no longer found in the Indo-Iranian languages , like Farsi for example, does not have Artar or Arta anymore as the word for "righteous". It was in Old Persian, but not in the modern language. This is contrasted with the fact that Armenians, to this day have that prefix Arta (being one of the most common prefix), as righteous and in many Armenian names and words. But Persians have ceased to use it now. Such an important word as righteous is not just lost, thus it shows that it doesn't originate in Indo-Iranians only, but if anything, in Armenian, an Armenian root or prefix. Also, it should be noted that the other words Persians have kept which Armenians share with them, for example mikh mekh, zang zung, tag taj, namak nameh, zambeegh zambooygh, modeed medod, These are nail, bell, crown, letter, basket , and pencil, but Arta has not been kept by the Indo-Aryans. Another interesting find was that the Indo-Aryans may have used Rita instead of Arta, which was/is used by the Armenians.
Furthermore, there is ample evidence that Nairi and Naharin were the same, both meaning "land of rivers", in that the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmose III referred to Armenia as "Ermenen", his reign was during the same time as Mitanni. The Assyrians used the term Nairi (land of rivers), which is a semetic word, for the people and land around and south of lake Van. On top of that, Naram-Sin mentions Armânum (Armenia) as part of the Diarbekr region, which had recently been taken over. To this day, Kurds and Turks refer to Armenians as Ermeni (Kurds) and Ermeniler (Turks). Another example is that Nairi is a very common male name in Armenia, and Naharin or Nahrine is a very common female version of Nariri name. --Moosh88 18:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Naharin isn't a people group, it's a geographic entity which specifically refers to the land between the two rivers. All that ethnic stuff may be true or false, but it hasn't got the slightest to do with geographical names. Thanatosimii 20:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Naharin and Nairi refer to the same people, as well as the land on which they lived. They lived in the "land of the two rivers" - Nairi, therefore they were known by that name too, as a people. I also presented even more evidence that the Armenians were involved with the establishment of Mitanni; so my question then is, are you trying to say that Armenians didn't participate in Mitanni?--Moosh88 21:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that's not the point of a deletion thread. The only relevent question here is, is naharin the same thing as either mitanni or nairi? The answer is, for the first one, not exactly; and for the second, absolutely not. Mitanni is a political entity, Naharin is a location with a history both before and after Mitanni. Nairi, both the people and the location, is/are located northeast of Naharin, across the tigris. Naharin and Nairi are distinct and different places, whose only similarity is the root nhr. Look at any map in a good book about ancient history and you will find Naharin squarely located in northwest mesopotamia, and Nairi sitting northeast of mesopotamia in the mountains. Thanatosimii 21:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Dear Moosh88, I respect your opinion and arguments--you are indeed knowledgeable on this matter. However, I must stress that the word 'Naharin' was applied by the New Kingdom Egyptians to the entire Hurrian state of Mitanni. In contrast, while the Nairi lands was certainly part of Mitanni, it did Not encompass all of Mitanni. The Nairi lands was located in the in the northeast section of the kingdom of Mitanni around the Tigris river. After Mitanni was conquered by the Hittites under Suppiluliuma I, the Nairi lands became a matter of dispute between Hatti and Assyria. A Hittite king Tudhaliya IV would later fight and lose a major battle at Nihiriya against the Assyrian king Tukulti-Ninurta I for control of the Nairi lands which were subsequently annexed to Assyria. But the rest of the former kingdom of Mitanni--the area west of Nairi--remained under Hittite control. So, Nairi and Naharin is not exactly the same piece of territory. That is why I ask if you can please consider allow this short Naharin article to stand. Thank You. Leoboudv 00:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nairi (Armenians) invaded the lands that would become Mitanni, along with other Indo-European peoples. As early as Akkadian times, Hurrians are known to have lived east of the river Tigris on the northern rim of Mesopotamia, and in the Khabur valley. The group which became Mitanni gradually moved south into Mesopotami sometime before the 17th century BC. Eusebius, writing in the early 4th century, quoted fragments of Eupolemus, a now-lost Jewish historian of the 2nd century BC, as saying that "around the time of Abraham, the Armenians invaded the Syrians" The Naharin term was applied to Mittani by the Egyptians in reference to Nairi and on names of the Mitanni kings, such as Artashumara (righteous son) and Aratama, among others, who were Armenian, because Nairi was the semetic term used to refer to Armenians, the Egyptians based it off of this. But it is not all based on the Nairi, Nahrin similarity, as I showed in my last post, the kings names were Armenian, not to mention the other points mentioned above. Modern scholars, which does not equal Roux by the way, but the likes of Ivanov, Gamkrelidze, Renfrew, and Kavoukjian, among many others, have shown without a shadow of a doubt, that Nairi was one of the key peoples in the establishment of Mitanni. So we have ancient sources, as well as modern that attest to the role played by Nairi in the formation of Mitanni. I may be wrong, but it seems that you (Leoboudv) and Thanatosimii are trying to divorce Mitanni from Nairi and thus Armenian History. Am I incorrect in this?
Sources that prove the above points.
Vyacheslav V. Ivanov and Thomas Gamkrelidze, The Early History of Indo-European Languages, Scientific American, vol. 262, N3, 110-116, March, 1990.
Gamkrelidze, Tamaz V. Vjacheslav V. Ivanov (1995). Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans. Mouton de Gruyter. ISBN 3-11-014728-9.
Renfrew, A.C., 1987, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, London: Pimlico. ISBN 0-7126-6612-5
Kavoukjian, Martiros. The Genesis of Armenian People, Montreal, 1982.
Kavoukjian, Martiros. Armenia, Subartu and Sumer, Montreal, 1989 ISBN 0921885008
And this list is incomplete since it only has English language books, there are many more on the subject in Russian, German, French, and Armenian.
Here is a good map of Mitanni [39]--Moosh88 02:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Hi Moosh88, Yes, that's an excellent map of Mitanni. I don't know where you found it. However, it also shows that the area of Nairi was located in the northeast sector of the Mitannian empire..which I think was Thanatosimi's and my basic point. In contrast, the word 'Naharin' usually refers to all regions of Mitanni, not just Nairi. When Egyptologists like Kenneth Kitchen use the word Naharin, they refer to the entire empire of Mitanni too. That is why I believe the word Naharin should be kept--as a reference for Mitanni, nothing more. As for divorcing the history of Mitanni and Armenia, I don't know what to say here beacuse I don't know the answer. I would say that the kingdom of Urartu or the Orontids are closer ancestors to the modern Armenian peoples but I am not an expert here and this is off topic. Thank You Leoboudv 02:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moosh, as I said, a deletion nomination is not the place for such a discussion. An editor presented these views last winter and the consensus that arose was that these theories are minority verging on fringe. If you want to change consensus regarding the connexions between Mitanni and Armenia, it isn't to be done in the AFD page for Naharin. My argument stands: Naharin and Nairi are not the same place, and Naharin and Mitanni have slightly different aspects like Anatolia and Turkey have different aspects. As such this page is not redundant, though it could use a good expansion. Thanatosimii 03:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could see Naharin being kept, but strictly as the Egyptian term for Mitanni. However, one must realize where the name "Naharin" came from, it has its roots in Nairi. As I stated earlier, the Nairi (Armenians) invaded Syria along with other Indo-European groups, and Mitanni was formed. Urartu was Nairi, the name Urartu was given to the people living around lake Van, by the Assyrians. As early as Akkadian times, Hurrians, an Indo-European people are known to have lived east of the river Tigris on the northern rim of Mesopotamia, and in the Khabur valley. The Nairi were closely related to the Hurrians, most likely being a sub branch. Thus, Armenian and Mitanni history is interwoven and it is not "off topic" to bring up the relation. I pointed out many sources, ancient and modern, so before either of you say it's "off topic" or "verging on fringe" read carefully what I have outlined in the previous posts.--Moosh88 04:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Reading unconvincing sources has left me unconvinced. Your assertations are all from the minority position, which to my knowledge is has found little to no credence among mainline scholars.Thanatosimii 04:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who says that these are "minority positions"? Or that no "mainline scholars" attach credence ot them? It seems that this is your opinion, and not the opinion of the majority of scholars. As I wrote earlier, the points I have mentioned have international support. Colin Renfrew, for example, are you saying he is in the minority camp? He is one of the main scholars on Indo-European studies.--Moosh88 04:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Moosh88, If you agree, let's resolve this discussion now by keeping the Naharin article as the Egyptian term or reference for the ancient kingdom of Mitanni as you proposed above. That is all I ever thought of when I created the entry...as you can see from my typed comments for Naharin. I used the word Naharin because various Egyptologists--not only Kitchen--web sites and the Ancient Egyptians use this phrase to refer to the Empire of Mitanni. I hope you concur here. With kind Regards, Leoboudv 04:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep We have an article for Hatti, rather than a redirection to Hittite. The article should be small though, with links out to other article for context. Markh 11:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As long as the article provides links to the Nairi (people) article and the Mitanni article, it can stay. And here are more links to sources showing the influence that Armenians had on Mesopotamia, as well as Sumeria.
This is what the other site I tryed to link says, (I provided the url on the edit summary).
Tracing the Origin of Ancient Sumerians
By Ashok Malhotra
Contribution of Armenians to ancient civilization
In the Indus valley from which the Sumerians emerged there were other tribes that lived in close proximity of the Austric Sumerians. These were prehistoric indo-Aryan tribes of an Armenian origin – followers of the God Ara. The indo Aryans were fair skinned and light haired. Hence the reason for the indo-Sumerians to label themselves as dark headed in comparison to the Ara people who were shining. Sumerians also began using the word Ara for fair and bright and eventually they labeled all indo-Aryan people as Ara or Arya. The word Armenian has its origin in AR-MA, i.e. the children of Ara and Ma the fertility Goddess.
Later indo-Aryan migrations of around 1500BC into the Indus regions were apparently of Hittite origin. Apparently, some intermarriage also took place between these indo-Sumerians and Armenians probably leading to a more vigorous community then would have been possible otherwise. A physical marriage also resulted in a marriage of the religious traditions of the Sumerian and Armenian tribes as well as the Sumerian language being influenced by Armenian. Such influences can be found by comparisons between the Armenian (or even Hungarian that emerged from ancient Armenian) and Sumerian language. Are was the Sun God and the roots of sun worship in the world appear to have an Aryan origin rather than a Sumerian one. Archaeologists refer to Transcaucasus region, including modern Armenia, as the earliest known prehistoric culture in the area, carbon-dated to roughly 6000 - 4000 BC. A recently discovered tomb has been dated to 9000 BC. Another early culture in the Armenian Highland and surrounding areas, the Kura-Araxes culture,(Aratta) is assigned the period of ca. 4000 - 2200 BC. Armenians are one of the oldest Indo-European subgroups. Therefore, it is not surprising that from amongst the Aryans it was the Armenians who spread around the ancient world of Mesopatomia and Indus valley first. The Hittite Aryans that became more powerful than the Armenians by 1500 BC were close neighbors and racial cousins of the Armenians, at times clashing with them and at times co-existing, yet probably gaining form the interaction at all times.
Buxton and Rice have found that of 26 Sumerian crania they examined 22 were Australoid or Austrics and four armennoid. Further According to Penniman who studied skulls from other Sumerian sites, the Australoid Eurafrican, Austric and Armenoid were the "racial" types associated with the Sumerians. Certainly it cannot be confirmed without further investigation if the Sumerian-Armenian alliance took place on Sumerian or Indian soil. It is also not certain if it was a forced or voluntary one. The fair skinned Armenian ladies are likely to have regarded the dark broad nosed Sumerians as ugly. Nevertheless, it may be deduced that the earliest Sumerians who introduced civilization in our world were around 85% Austric and 15% Armenian Aryans.
(there is more, but this is good info)
[40]
[41]
--Moosh88 18:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then Moosh. The article can stay with the Mitanni link. Anyone who accesses the Mitanni site from the short Naharin article can then immediatedly see the linked articles on the Nairi peoples which you have enclosed. As for sources that Armenians were the descendants of Mitanni, I'm afraid a deletion forum is not the best site for this discussion. A talk page on Mitanni is a better site for this long discussions. Naharin should strictly be limited to the foreign (Egyptian here) word for the kingdom of Mitanni as you and I note. Leoboudv 19:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That works. However, note that I am not saying that the Armenians are/were the descendants of the Mitanni, they participated with the other peoples, such as the Indo-Aryan (Indic) peoples, in establishing the kingdom of Mitanni.--Moosh88 20:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Yes, then we agreed, Moosh. Regards, Leoboudv 21:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Before this discussion ends, did you take note of the points that I made? Or do you only agree that the Nahrin article should link to Nairi (people) and Mitanni article?--Moosh88 21:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just agree with what the Egyptologists say: that Naharin was the term for Mitanni. As for whether the Mitannians were ancestors of the Armenians, anything is possible in the Near East. After Mitanni was conquered, it was reduced to a mini vassal state under Hittite control but once the Hittite empire was destroyed by the Sea Peoples, we don't know what happened to the remaining Mitannians. Were they destroyed by the Sea Peoples, or displaced to the highlands of Turkey/Armenia? No one knows but its certainly possible that some Mitannians were ancestors of modern day Armenians, Turks and Syrians--the latter two since the Empire of Mitanni covered parts of both Syria and Turkey. Thank You. Leoboudv. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leoboudv (talk • contribs) 22:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am beginning to doubt very much that you (Leoboudv) have read any of my posts or for that matter, whether you have even read any of the sources which I listed. How many times must I state that Armenians (Nairi), along with other Indo-European groups, the people that established Mitanni. There is no Mitannian ethnicity per se, it was a local melting pot (if anything), not an ethnicity. It may be possible that Syrians (Arabs) and Turks have some of the blood that the inhabitants of the kingdom of Mitanni had, but the Turks didn't come to the area until around 1100 AD, and the Arabs didn't until around 600 AD. Both of these dates are more than 1500 years after Mitanni's demise. The sources I linked you to show that Armenians existed before 1200's BC, as you see with Mitanni and earlier Kura-Araxes (Aratta) culture, which spread to region of Mitanni and helped form that kingdom. For example, Thutmose III during his reign (1500's BC), which was around the same time as Mitanni, mentioned Ermenen in reference to Mitanni, Ermenistan is now used by Kurds, Turks, and Azeri's as the name of Armenia. Thus, it's nonesense to say that the Sea Peoples were the ancestors of Armenians, when it has been established that Armenians were already a people by this time. Once again read my posts clearly, and read the sources I provided.--Moosh88 02:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have never once claimed that the Sea Peoples are ancestors of the Armenians and don't dispute for one minute that the Armenians are an ancient people. This discussion here is merely about whether the term Naharin should be permitted on Wikipedia, nothing more. Since professional Egyptologists and Egypt related web sites use the word Naharin for the Egyptian expression for Mitanni, I think it should. Its simply the Egyptian term for Mitanni, nothing more. Thank You. Leoboudv 04:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But did you not say that "its certainly possible that some Mitannians were ancestors of modern day Armenians", when it has been clearly established that Armenians, along with other Indo-European peoples, were the founders of the kingdom of Mitanni. I understand that Naharin was used in reference to Egypt, but do not pass over the strong Armenian connection with Mitanni.--Moosh88 05:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's fine. I may agree or disagree with your point but I do see where you are coming from. Thanks. Leoboudv 07:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And may I ask, what points do you disagree with?--Moosh88 07:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that you discuss the ethnic origins of the Armenians on another page such as the Naharin or Mitanni discussion page. This site is not conducive for such discussions...only on whether Naharin as a word is acceptable as a reference for the Empire of Mitanni. Thank You. Leoboudv 00:00, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are you disagreeing with the scholars or the historical records, cause I can understand you not seeing eye to eye with a scholar, but to deny ancient records is unjustifiable.--Moosh88 21:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My specialty is Egyptology--not the ancient history of the Levant or Armenia. So, I don't agree or disagree with any particular scholar or historical record on Mitanni's or Armenia's origins since I don't have any specific position here. All that is certain is that Mitanni/Naharin was a Hurrian (ie. non-Semitic) state. But this page is only about whether the Egyptian word 'Naharin' is reasonable as a term of reference for Mitanni. I think it certainly is. Regards, Leoboudv 06:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep: as this article cites significant coverage of its topic in multiple, third party reliable sources in University of Florida Taser incident#References, the incident is presumed to be notable per Wikipedia's general notability guideline. WP:NOT#NEWS has also been advanced as an argument for deletion. Whatever the merits of ever raising WP:NOT#NEWS in any deletion discussion without claiming serious WP:BLP issues[1], WP:NOT#NEWS clearly does not furnish a valid rationale for deletion here. Indeed, WP:NOT#NEWS expressly states that "topics in the news may also be encyclopedic subjects when the sources are substantial"; the massive media coverage of this incident cited in University of Florida Taser incident#References would therefore suggest that this incident is, indeed, an "encyclopedic subject". Likewise, the involvement of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry in the events preceding the incident favors the conclusion that the incident does indeed have "historical notability". John254 03:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- ^ WP:NOT#NEWS was added to WP:NOT during the controversy surrounding the events considered in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff, admonishes editors to "[keep] in mind the harm our work might cause", and advises that "While Wikipedia strives to be comprehensive, the policies on biographies of living persons and neutral point of view should lead us to contextualize events appropriately, which may preclude a biography about someone who is not an encyclopedic subject, despite a brief appearance in the news." The extent to which WP:NOT#NEWS ever applies to any articles other than biographies of living persons that present a substantial risk of causing serious embarrassment, humiliation, or other harm to their subjects is therefore doubtful. Archetypical of the sort of article that clearly qualifies for deletion under WP#NOT:NEWS would be a biography of a person whose sole claim to notability is an arrest for driving while intoxicated, where the event was only covered in two local newspapers.
- University of Florida Taser incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
 | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}. |
WP:NOT#NEWS. The University of Florida police overreacted to a borderline heckler at a John Kerry speech. Footage was shown on television because it contained the memorable line "Don't tase me, bro!" and some print sources ran stories, but this has no lasting, encyclopedic interest. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 04:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This is a major PR story and useful case study. Also, the university has not taken final action, so the story is not finished.
- KEEP The phrase "Don't Tase Me Bro" has become something of a phenomenon, being echoed in stand-up routines, late night shows, and t-shirts. Just Google that expression, and you will find dozens of hits. It is part of the American lexicon now. In fact, that phrase should be the primary Wikipedia link and focus. To remove the entire article would deprive researchers of critical background for this expression. If it should one day fall out of disuse, it can THEN be deleted. But there is no reason to rush the article off Wikipedia's site. Another expression with its own entry is, "Yo, Blair."
- KEEP I'm not an American citizen but if I were I would feel that this video depicts an important event in which fundamental principles of my democracy have been undermined. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cockers (talk • contribs) 13:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- KEEP Whether or not you feel this is something that should be deleted, there's really no reason. It is an event. It happened. It's now part of history. There isn't a limited amount of space that this article is going to take up. It doesn't matter whether you agree with what happened or not- YOU CAN'T DELETE HISTORY! And the fact that it has made such a huge impact and had so much media coverage is the reason it is a noteworthy article.
If you don't want to read it, don't go searching for it. It's as simple as that! ~Nini —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.48.133.1 (talk) 20:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Keep" This is a piece of history that should not be wiped from the public's consciousness. Free speech is still free in most of Americans' minds although politicians and police have tried to take it away from us. Why weren't Meyer's questions answered? Even more, why was Meyer dragged off, tasered, and arrested for asking them? Kerry is a public official and the least of all rights we have to expect when dealing with one is that we be allowed to question authority, however unfashionable it may be these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.20.61 (talk) 05:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. First, 'Footage was shown on television because it contained the memorable line "Don't tase me, bro!"' is not the reason I'm interested. In fact stating that this is the only reason there is interest is overreaching...and insulting. Obiter you do not speak for everyone...clearly! This is a current event of some interest; obviously. Stating that the line "Don't tase me, bro!" is the only reason there is interest and thereby qualifies the article for deletion is beyond ridiculous. Second, if the two videos are watched and listened to carefully one will quickly realize that everything stated in the article as of this point in time is accurate. In fact one can clearly hear an officer threat to tase Meyer before he begs not to be tased. Third, POV tags should NEVER be thrown without a reason being given. William (Bill) Bean 13:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Um, I didn't add the POV tag to the article. Nor have I commented on the article's accuracy or who was "right" in this incident. You obviously have me confused with someone else. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 15:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Where did I say YOU added the tag Obiter? Please point that out. What I'm saying is that the reason you give for killing the article is not the reason I'm interested in it. Further, I'm stating that you don't speak for me. That should be pretty clear. Perhaps you should work on your reading for comprehension skills. Just a suggestion. William (Bill) Bean 21:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- As you threw up your comment out of order at the top of the list, immediately after the nomination statement, it was logical to infer that it was a direct response to it. I'm befuddled by your assertion that I don't speak for you. I've never claimed to, nor, AFAICR, have I ever interacted with you before. Proposing a community discussion of this article has obviously elicited an emotional response from you, and I'm frankly at a loss as to why that should be so. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 21:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You certainly make a lot of assumptions. "Proposing a community discussion of this article has obviously elicited an emotional response from you, and I'm frankly at a loss as to why that should be so." Obvious? Since it is highly unlikely that you read minds I can only assume that you are jumping to a conclusion without sufficient evidence. Shocking! What is obvious to me is that the people who are having a problem with this article do not know how to follow proper procedure. Beyond my faux pas at putting my vote at the top of the list rather than the bottom I do know two things with total certainty. When an article is tagged for POV a reason must be given. When an article is nominated for deletion that nomination should appear where the entire community can find it. Otherwise both are meaningless; for obvious reason. FOLLOW PROPER PROCEDURE!!! William (Bill) Bean 00:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't feel this is a conversation I need to continue. I will simply point out (again) that the nomination was indeed posted to the afd log for September 19 by the TWINKLE script, which does this automatically. This is because is was nominated at 4:06 Greenwich Mean Time on that date. You couldn't find it because (as you said) that you looked in the log for September 18. Even though it was still the 18th where you lived, it was already the 19th in other parts of the world. Do you understand this now? ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 01:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Stop with the "assumptions" and it will end. Do I get this now? No I'm too obtuse! Give me a slight break here. My ONLY concern is proper procedure. That is it! Now is there anything else you want to make "obvious" about me or are you through playing the passive aggressive game? William (Bill) Bean 01:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This is the Kent State shootings of our era, a demonstration of excessive police state force against students massively reported in the media. It is also reminiscent of the Rodney King beatings. Ejeder 13:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I must say, comparing this to Kent State is in rather poor taste. Phil Sandifer 13:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I will agree with Phil, above. Nobody was seriously hurt in this incident; nor did it involve a shooting of any sort. Tom Sullivan 1500, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is most certainly NOT in poor taste-- this is an example of police overpowering innocent university students. At heart, the principle is absolutely identical. This is a newsworthy event, it appeals to our national, cultural history, and it should be rightly chronicled as so in this encyclopedia. User:Unidyne7 19 September 2007.
- Wow, that's very offensive. A split-second tazing of upper-middle class prankster for insulting a United States Senator is not comparable to a merciless beating by police officers for no reason other than racism. Revolutionaryluddite 21:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Er, what? The Kent State victims were white students shot for protesting Vietnam, not victims of racist beatings. -- Dandelions 02:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This story is meaningful from several angles: the passivity of Sen. John Kerry, former candidate for U.S. President, the forebodings of the beginning of a police state in America, the loss of free speech, historically one of America's most treasured traits, and with all the video evidence, this story is not going away. This event may stand the test of time, much like the murder of four students at Kent State University during the Vietnam War.--RuthStar 11:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Let the facts be presented as the vision of Wikipedia allows for. This event is clearly of interest beyond news and internet video --for anyone wishing to research contemporary issues in free speech in the college system of the U.S. 75.35.23.193 07:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)Benzl[reply]
- Support/Delete I agree. Already, we've had 1 user (not saying any names), going through and removing hidden notes, and people referring to the prankster as "douchebag". A delete is what this article needs. [Tyler] (talk/contribs) 04:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Huge story, of relevance and interest to the American and world public, and which users will come here looking for. This story will not go away or be forgotten, and thus merits coverage in our encyclopedia. Badagnani 04:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - To Badagnani: But it doesn't belong here, as per WP:NOT#NEWS. [Tyler] (talk/contribs) 04:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you're incorrect. This is a rare example of use of force with a Taser on a college campus, against a student asking a question at a forum, something that doesn't happen often and raises questions about the use of force (specifically with an electro-shock weapon) in the United States. As such, it is a very high-profile example of the Electroshock weapon controversy and not to treat it would leave an illogical lacuna. Badagnani 04:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This was #1 story earlier this evening on cnn.com, videos have ~500,000+ views on utube, hundreds of news stories and thousands of google hits and we still have an article for UCLA_Taser_incident which happened a year ago. Leafyplant 04:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment But if people wish to know about this, they can easily look it up on Yahoo News, YouTube, etc. [Tyler] (talk/contribs) 04:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Interesting event, during the election campaign, may spark debate about policing in the USA. I'm sure much worse happens every day, but this case is particular because there was a violent reaction, a will to censor political critique. A peaceful political opposer was tortured by electrical shock until he accepted to wear handcuffs and be arrested for no reason. This is a rare happening in the USA, normally political censorship and intimidation is more discreet. It's an interesting turning point, especially as it was ordered by the democrats who often oppose the heavy handed way the Republicans have of dealing with problems. Democrats have often campaigned for the use of tasers instead of guns, and gun control in general, this gives an interesting insight on how they may be planning to use them. Jackaranga 04:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Right. It's in the news right now, but it's unlikely that it will have lasting historic importance. And now we apparently have the danger the article will turn into a coatrack after the rest of us have forgotten about it next week. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 04:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS, this is a NN event. Just because lots of people watch it on YouTube does not make it notable. meshach 04:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This is a great deal more than a "popularity of viral video" issue. First amendment rights, use of excessive force, student rights, and broadcast rights can all be seen in this article. Though there have not been many reported incidents of campus police use of excessive force, there have been other cases as well. I can see the article being incorporated into another article that deals with free speech, student rights, use of force etc., but for now it should stand. William (Bill) Bean 15:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This is much more than a story about a prankster that loves attention. Using violence to put an end to what amounts to disorderly conduct is rather disturbing. It won't be long before this story is lost in the clutter of the ever changing news sites. At least here, we'll have a chance to view this story to its natural end. This is not always the case when relying on broadcast/cable news.Alecquaid 04:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. WP:NOT#NEWS. No encyclopedic longevity. - Crockspot 04:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - WP:NOT#NEWS - time will tell this event to be without lasting significance. If something notable emerges and there is more significance, a new article can be written with the benefit of more hindsight. Dlabtot 04:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete This is classic WP:NOT#NEWS MarkBul 05:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Wow, AfD seems to have died down. I still stand by my delete. This will end becoming a hatrack soon [Tyler] (talk/contribs) 05:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This is a very notable story right now. Keeping and closing off edits for the time being until we see how impactful it really is may be the way to go User:Edgecution03 04:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete I agree with Dlabtot's statement. This is not notable, and if it somehow turns into the root cause of a major policy change, then the article can be re-created. This kid was being pulled out for disruption the same way a heckler would be thrown out of a comedy act, and the police used vastly excessive force. This sort of thing happens so much these days that police have a reputation for it, especially in certain communities but even in general. There was no lasting injury. A couple of years ago, University of Central Florida students were tailgating, and there was an altercation in which an undercover UCF officer had his gun drawn. An Orlando cop was in the area, and due to a lack of communication between the two police forces, the Orlando uniformed cop shot and killed the undercover UCF cop who had drawn his gun. Guess what? This story does not have an article, nor even a mention anymore anywhere in Wikipedia (no, this is not supposed to be a police brutality example, just an example of notability). Mbarbier 05:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
-
- Comment Umm, his/her point is not that an article should be created for that incident - but that an article rightly has not been created for that incident. Dlabtot 16:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Comment' "Um" is not a proper way to start a sentence; just for future reference. Whether or not an article is created and kept is not up to you. It is a rightfully a community decision. Stating your opinion that "rightly" does not qualify for this article is all fine and good, but you do not speak for everyone. I'll be happy to remind you of this "sad" fact as often as necessary until you get it. I can see that it might be often. Finally, flagging an article NPOV without giving cause is in and of itself POV. I could also be considered vandalism. I strongly suggest you refrain from doing that in future. Your talk page indicates this is not the first or even second time you've done this. William (Bill) Bean 21:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - We've got an article for Rachel Corrie of all people; this guy's just as notable. Evan1975 05:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Rachel Corrie was killed; this person was Tasered. I think there's a difference. Bondegezou 13:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, per Not#News -- best handled at Wikinews:Student_questioning_Senator_Kerry_is_tasered. – Zedla 06:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per Badagnani. --Itub 08:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This was a news story, but it's not only a news story. There are enough references to it out there that, as Badagnani said, someone who missed all the coverage in 2007 may come upon a mention of it a year or a decade from now and want to know more. I don't agree with Tyler Warren that we should dump an article if people could look up the information elsewhere on the Web. We don't do original research, so most of Wikipedia's content is available elsewhere on the Web, and the rest is available in libraries. JamesMLane t c 09:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Very significant event, not just a news article. Someone could want to read this article months/years from now. Connör (talk) 10:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per JamesMLane. Darksun 10:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep why the hell would it be deleted? - mnuez —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.148.23 (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete This is not Wikinews. --ElKevbo 11:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Just one day since the event's occurrence, and this article has already been nominated for deletion. Amazing. Why on earth such a rush to delete??? Evidently some editors are blessed with psychic powers, able to determine that a month or a year from now this story will have been forgotten, and is thus of no lasting value -- and accordingly, not worthy of an article on Wikipedia. Or perhaps I'm wrong -- maybe they have access to that time-travel vehicle from Back to the Future. If so, I'd like to at least see some sort of physical evidence -- you know, a cancelled check or something like that. :)
Ahem. In all seriousness, this nomination is based on nothing more than a personal view that supposedly "minor" incidents of police abuse, where the victim wasn't maimed or killed -- aren't deserving of attention. That might be a valid argument -- if we were talking about Iraq or Afghanistan. But this sort of thing is not supposed to take place here in the United States. So unless it turns out that it was all staged -- nothing more than some sort of "performance art" on the part of both the student and the police -- it should be considered intrinsically worthy of documenting here on Wikipedia. But wait... that would be notable in itself, wouldn't it?! (And by the way, let's not forget that most online newspapers don't keep their articles online permanently.) Cgingold 11:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep for now. At the moment, this is a major event, with plenty of non-trivial secondary coverage by major news organizations. Revisit it in 6 months and, if by then it's no longer considered major then it can be merged with the applicable articles. I have to express concern that some of the arguments above (on both sides of the issue) cross the line of WP:NPOV and WP:ILIKEIT/WP:IDONTLIKEIT. 23skidoo 11:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I agree wholly with this viewpoint. Any developments in the story will likely not be addressed by national news outlets, so at least for now, wikipedia can serve as a comprehensive account of the event. It can be reviewed again in six months, and then nominated then. --Asarkees 15:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First arbitrary section break[edit]
- Delete - this is a subject for a wikinews article not an enclycopediac one. People feelings about the importance of the event don't change it being simply a newsworthy event. - Peripitus (Talk) 11:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- how can you assume so quickly that it does not have long-lasting encyclopedic significance? Surely we need to wait a while and see how it plays out to determine that. In the meantime, this clearly satisfies the first criterion of WP:BIO -- subject of multiple, independent, reliable published reports. Dylan 12:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge to List of cases of police brutality or some similar article due to recentism.... There is no telling that this event will have any actual historical impact. When it does beyond the initial media hype (as with all passing events), then perhaps a stand-alone article is warranted. It is way too early to determine the long-lived impact of this, and a case should be proven to keep it (other than to avoid deletion), not the other way around. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 12:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Saying that "a case should be proven to keep it…not the other way around" has no basis in Wikipedia policy. dcandeto 14:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure it does. Read WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NOTE -- the long-term historical significance has not been established for this. I was published in a few newspaper articles, so maybe I'll be a big deal someday -- let's create an article on me, shall we? This is not evidenced to have far-reaching impact -- it's just the topic of the week as far as anyone can tell. Not even the I-35W Mississippi River bridge has its own article about all the national press that it received. It didn't stay in the national scope forever, and there's no evidence that this will, too. I don't want to blank mention of the incident from Wikipedia, but it needs to be more concise (less WikiNews) and placed in a broader article. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- We don't know how this will play out and what kind of impact it may have, i believe this AfD is premature, it should be kept for the time being. DTGardner 12:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly, we don't know. Gazpacho 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- The University of Florida Taser incident story is just developing. It MUST be kept and eventually cleaned up. But any move to delete it is suspect. -- Greenpagan1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenpagan1 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "Must" why? "Suspect" how? Gazpacho 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- the massive media coverage more than establishes notability. As for the "performance art" argument, if it turns out that this was all staged, in my mind this does not diminish notability. I mean, if this was staged, it is probably one of the most successful (in terms of media exposure) acts of performance art ever; such an event -- a student successfully creating a scene that captures global media attention and provokes a "serious" national discussion regarding excessive force used by police and freedom of speech -- would perhaps be even more notable than a tasering incident standing alone. Interestingstuffadder 13:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Although I find most of the keep votes ludicrously offensive (Comparing this to Kent State?) for the moment this seems notable by any measure we use. Phil Sandifer 13:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep No question there is censorship in the United States, and also there are those who would censor any mention of this censorship, as evidenced by the sprinkling of delete votes here. But, sorry, it's a little too late to "keep a lid" on this one now; even the BBC has reported on it. Os Cangaceiros (Yippie!) 13:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Why isn't there an entry for this nomination in the September 18, 2007 nomination for deletion list? Damned hard to discuss a nomination like this, in the broader community, if no one knows where to comment on it. William (Bill) Bean 13:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment SOFIXIT already. Edison 13:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The person who threw the tag should fix it or the tag should be removed. William (Bill) Bean 21:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It's already listed at the log for 19 September. Just because it was September 18 in the United States when it was nominated does not mean it was September 18 everywhere else in the world. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 15:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete Keep Edited to add: per 494 671 news article about the event to be found at Google News search [42] and 1.2 million 5 million views of the top 7 YouTube videos of the tasering of the student. views of the YouTube video of the incident. It is offensive to compare a publicity seeking student (perhaps the only white guy in this millenium who would call a black cop "Bro") who gets tasered by the police in their attempts to remove him when he stays at the microphone too long during a question and answer session, with four students going about their business at a university being shot dead by the National Guard, or with a young lady being crushed by bulldozers when she puts her body on the line to prevent homes being demolished, or with a man stopped for speeding and beaten half to death because of his race. Go to a political event, a town council meeting, a stockholders meeting, or any other forum and seize the microphone, refuse to yield it after asking a question, and you will likely be removed, by force. The force may be taser, mace, or just arm twisting, but you will eventually be carried out. That said, this is one of those stories which might or might not prove to be encyclopedic. We have the philosphy "notability is permanent" but so far this is just a news story, and per WP:NOT#NEWS it may be deleted. Our newshungry 24/7 newschannels take any titillating video footage and run it around the clock for a couple of days, and every paper runs lurid stories to try and coax coins out of someone's pocket at the news stand. This is not "Currenteventspedia." For that, see Wikinews. People wanting to look up this news story 2 years from now can check the NY Times online files. The news editors are not trying to choose enyclopedic stories. "Notability is permanent" implies that "only things with enduring notability should have articles." See also the essay WP:NOTNEWS which distinguishes between the encyclopedic and the merely "newsworthy." We might have a philosophy of creating an article about a newsworthy (but posibly not encyclopically notable event) and then later deleting it if coverage rapidly drops off, which is what I prefer. In such a case, our initial impression of notability was mistaken. If it has no enduring effect on society (such as laws passed, defeat of a political candidate, regime change at a college, new rules for campus police using tasers) it can be deleted later. Or in accord with "permanent notability" we can wait and recreate the article if it proves to have enduring importance. Who can say at this point what its long term effect will be? At least the story is appropriately about the incident and not the non-notable person. Edison 13:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This is big news, newspaper all over the world are reporting it. Vote to keep it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.106.75 (talk) 14:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak keep My guess is that there will be something else about this case that cements its notability, but my crystal ball isn't working very well. Saying that this should be covered at Wikinews is cute, but nobody actually reads Wikinews (I came here, looking for an article called Andrew Meyer; I haven't visited Wikinews in months—it is usually hours behind Wikipedia in getting news-like updates.) dcandeto 14:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you saying that Wikinews isn't working well, therefore Wikipedia should take up the slack? Gazpacho 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This incident might not be the Kent State of our time, but it is certainly newsworthy, particularly in the context of comparable incidents of police over-reaction in recent history (the UCLA taser incident, the Seattle WTO riots) that all are Wiki articles ApolloRPL 14:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - This is one of few 'live-footage' police brutality incidents in current times. --Joffeloff 14:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. - This should not be deleted the day after it happened. Wait until the incident settles down, see what comes of it, and then reconsider it for deletion. The fact that it was even nominated for deletion this quickly is suspect. Digitiki 15:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "Suspect" how? Don't pussy-foot. Gazpacho 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong keep This article isn't about the student; it's about the incident, which is ongoing. It involved a US Senator, has been widely reported on by news outlets both online and offline, and has so far resulted in at least one investigation by the University of Florida. It's therefore pretty notable. The incident will surely be mentioned in Kerry's and the University of Florida's articles, so it's best just to link to its own page where the full incident can be explained.--Gloriamarie 15:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. It devalues WP:NOT#NEWS if an article which is clearly more appropriate for Wikinews is kept, because there is no point in a policy which has so many loopholes that it never applies. The 'passivity of Sen. Kerry' can be dealt with in his biography; the behaviour of the campus authorities can be mentioned in the page about the University. Of the rest, the media coverage is broad but shallow and the incident has all the characteristics of a publicity stunt; it is likely to be forgotten in a few months. Sam Blacketer 15:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Major news item that will become of significant historical importance. See UCLA Taser incident. (Yes, I already know about the essay that says not to do this, but I disagree with it.) Philwelch 15:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Very Weak Keep (for Now) It's frustrating to read the article now that it's mutated into a POV screed in support of Meyer. Still, the article is (or is supposed to be, at least) about the incident and its aftermath. The fact that an irate protester crashed a town hall meeting and was removed as normal isn't notable, but since this happened in a widely reported meeting with Senator Kerry it is notable to that extent. I don't know. The fact that other users keep saying ILIKEIT without actually defending the article is also frustrating. It's news, but it's a developing story and I'm leaning twoard seeing what happens. Revolutionaryluddite 16:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to provide some perspective The New York Times ran a single, one-paragraph story on this incident, credited to the Associated Press. It did, however, note that the video has been replayed widely on television and the Internet. In other words, no one in the grown-up world actually cares much about this. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And now the story is completely off the front pages of almost all major news organization if it ever was anyway. 128.227.81.252 16:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Watergate also took a long time to develop. That doesn't mean that this is the next Watergate, but that the true relevance of the story may not be known for some time. My vote can be found elsewhere. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 02:34 (UTC)
- Delete. Wikipedia is not a news blotter. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 16:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Seems like a notable news event, since it happen during a polictal event. CRocka05 16:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep. This had ought to be kept; it has become a major news event in both public and online news, while most of the mass media ignores it. Darkahn 16:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete and add a brief summary to List of cases of police brutality ("This list compiles incidents of police brutality that have garnered significant media and/or historical attention"). -- Gabi S. 17:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There has been no investigative or legal finding of brutality. Gazpacho 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - excellent suggestion. Dlabtot 17:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Most of the keep rationales that I am seeing here are based on the fact that this is a "major news event". This does not address the fact that, by policy, Wikipedia is not a news blotter. I am also seeing rationales that this story seems to support other collateral theories, which amounts to original research, which is also against policy. I have also seen at least one contributor who's first edit was to this AfD, which is suspicious in and of itself. I would hope that the closing admin will give these rationales their appropriate weight (ie., no weight at all), when determining consensus. This is beginning to look like the Zeitgeist the Movie AfD. - Crockspot 17:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete: As of now. This may turn into a big deal depending on what happens with the officers and the investigation. But as of now, delete per WP:NOT#NEWS. - Rjd0060 17:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: Multiple reliable sources.
- Keep: Widespread media coverage, multiple sources, significant topic. Xizer 17:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: Very notable news event that is an example of a broader trend of Campus Law Enforcement violence, see UCLA_Taser_incident, the event has caused widespread campus protest and will quite likely involve legal response. Further it happened during a question and answer with a U.S. Senator, the setting itself adds weight. — Falerin<talk>,<contrib> 18:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: If you think that the tasering of students is less important for an encyclopaedia than MediaWiki or any of the other random naval-gazing pages that you have, then you lot are all even more circular than I thought. If you are going to insist on notability then half the stuff has to go, e.g. every episode of a sci-fi show has a page for heavens sake!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.234.82 (talk) 18:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep : Andrew Meyer may be a goofball but the incident showed unacceptable police brutality. Tasering someone for being a nuisance is a sinister development. It is a record of what the police do to those who dissent. The phrase : "Don't tase me, bro" has entered the lexicon of American dissenters. The article must be kept. Tovojolo 18:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There has been no finding of police brutality or civil rights violated. Gazpacho 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Delete - Too recent an event for an article. Wait a month or two so we can gain some perspective on the event and its impact and then recreate. At the moment, it is clearly NEWS. Blueboar 18:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and stop wasting time with trying to delete things that happen to pertain to recent events - nothing in WP:NOT#NEWS supports deleting an article like this. Nothing there compels us to delete anything about an important event. It is merely a reminder that we don't need an article on every single homicide or traffic accident.
- This story reaches beyond that. It touches on issues related to free speech vs. creating a public nuisance. Police brutality vs. maintaining order. It also touches upon long-standing sentiment (misplaced in my view) by a minority of the US electorate the Republicans are somehow "disenfranchising" people's vote.
- Just because it is a recent event does not mean it is a news story. Some people actually thought we should delete Virginia Tech massacre because of WP:NOT#NEWS. This is not as big a waste of time as that effort was, but the same principle applies. Recent events can and should have a perfectly viable encyclopedia article.
- This article complies with all Wikipedia policies and it is a far more useful reference (to give just one example) than any number of articles on minor British nobility who are someone "notable" because they were born into a bizarre caste system. Johntex\talk 18:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: the event has already become highly notable. The fact that it concerns police harrassment of a university student in a university hall in the USA when he was asking about issues such as the 2004 United States presidential election controversy and irregularities and the Movement to impeach George W. Bush to a former candidate for president of the USA makes it likely to remain notable in the long term. Whether or not it is correct that the 2004 US pres election was rigged, and whether or not it is morally/legally/politically justified to impeach Bush are POVs, but it is NPOV to say that these are questions concerning one of the most powerful people on this planet. The fact that someone asking questions which are implicitly critical of this extremely powerful person got jumped on by police in the supposedly academic setting of a university lecture room makes it unlikely that the notability could drop. Boud 18:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This is an important issue on the state of our police force, and on the right to freedom of speech. As a college student and as the editor of a newspaper that is covering this event, this page has helped me find links, sources, and facts. This is about a student being treated with unnecessary force while exercising his right to freedom of speech and his right to peaceably assemble on Constitution Day, of all things. The fact that some are tired of the quote, "Don't tase me, Bro!" does not make this issue unimportant.--Manda babylon 18:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm a bit disturbed to hear that you use Wikipedia to research your journalistic work, and it is patently POV to assume that he was tazed for exercising his "freedom of speech". He was tazed because he was running aroung the hall being disruptive, pushing cops, and resisting his detainment. Tasers and pepper spray are used to subdue combative detainees, rather than risk hurting him or the officers by forcing him to submit through muscle power or a knightstick. Better to be tased or sprayed than end up in traction. I saw the video, he was running around like a fool, and he is lucky that he didn't get seriously injured. All of these arguments run counter to what this project is all about. It isn't a soapbox for radical students to "stick it to the man", it's an encyclopedia. - Crockspot 18:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Crockspot, your characterization that he was disruptive, running around like a fool, etc. is your personal opinion. I saw the same videos and I think he did none of those things. You want to delete the article because of your own POV.
- As for Manda babylon using Wikipedia for his journalistic work, there's nothing wrong with that. He used it to find links, sources, and facts which he could verify himself. Nbauman 19:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well there you go. Two opposing POVs do not necessarily equal NPOV. The guy obviously took a lot more steps around the hall than most people are allowed to take when the police want to detain them. I think they were very generous with him. As for using Wikipedia to find reliable sources, true, it is good for that. I guess I was also taking into account the POV that this journalist was expressing. If the view expressed above is repeated in his/her news reporting, then I would have a difficult time giving that reporting much credibility, as it would be obviously biased. - Crockspot 19:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The point is that this article is important and suitable for WP whether or not Meyer's demeanor was appropriate, and whether or not the police were right to arrest him or taser him. Those are the issues that people are debating. You're trying to remove the debate from WP because you believe in one side. Nbauman 19:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(comment?) I live in Bristol in the UK and it had an article in today's paper here. 86.137.127.139 19:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Appears right now to have significant interest. We can always delete it later if it proves to have no staying power. One of the great things about not being paper is that we can change our mind. Right now, people will be accessing Wikipedia to learn about this, and I imagine they will in future. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep due to considerable news coverage. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 19:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Kerry's proximity and (non)reaction make it very notable, though rare and notable regardless. Respected commenters, e.g. [43] see it as a free speech issue, indicative of a decline of protection of constitutional rights.John Z 19:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So it's probably Bush's fault that Kerry didn't jump in and start punching cops, no? I think I have to walk away from this discussion. My eyes are starting to glaze over. - Crockspot 19:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- His non-reaction makes it notable? Aside from not making sense, this is factually inaccurate. Kerry tried to address some of Meyer's questions after he was cut off, even though Meyer wasn't listening and was drowning him out. 21:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- Kerry could easily have intervened; he had the microphone. He could have said, to the campus cops, "Hey! Wait a minute! This is America, and the First Amendment says people can ask questions of Senators. Let the man go." Instead, he said nothing about brutality toward a student who asked him embarrassing questions, in a scene reminiscent of Red China or the old Soviet Union, and which lost him a certain amount of support from those whoi supported him in his run for the Presidency. Then he said he had no idea the student was arrested or tasered, making him the only person in the hall whose powers of observation were so impaired. Edison 23:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong keep. This is an important incident, for those of us who believe in free speech. For those of us who don't believe in free speech, it may not be important, but they shouldn't censor Wikipedia for the rest of us. The very fact that people are so divided about it shows that it is a watershed conflict about censorship, and people will cite it forever. Cases like this go through the courts for years, and people will want to look up the background facts about it during that time. In addition, I found that the Wikipedia article had a very well-selected collection of links when a Google search gave me thousands of mostly-repetitive links, so I want to keep it simply because it's so useful. Nbauman 19:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- P.S. As an example of how good this article is, it has a link to a Fox News story with the only comment I could find by two lawyers, discussing the reasons why he could or could not prevail on the legal issues. Nbauman 20:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete This will probably be kept or done so by default. Obviously, it's hard to give a proper argument toward deletion of this article at this point, since it is a major news item, but I do not feel that it will have sufficient long-lasting notability. It would help if we could wait a week or so and then determine if an article should be made, but at this point, I would ditch it. Dannycali 19:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: If it's on so many news sites as everyone claims, why is it "censorship" not to include it in Wikipedia? We're not an indiscriminate collection of information, nor as Edison put it, "Currenteventspedia". shoy 19:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The reason why it's censorship not to include it in Wikipedia is that most of the people who argue for its deletion are arguing that it's not important because they don't approve of his demeanor or of what he was trying to do. Those who give greater importance to the First Amendment believe the abuse is important and the article is important. Those who give greater importance to being polite, to not annoying the majority of people and to following authority and the police believe the abuse is not important and the article is not important. People are arguing for its deletion based on their political beliefs. Nbauman 20:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. No, they're not. They're arguing for its deletion because they don't believe the incident has demonstrated any long-lasting notability, as almost all of them have stated. They are having to deal with people who dislike that stance defaming them by ignoring their stated rationales claiming that their votes are politically motivated, or by making dark (and rather ridiculous) comments about how "putting the article up for deletion so quickly is itself a suspicious act." Binabik80 21:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A little background. I happen to think that deputizing the campus rent-a-cops is a canonically bad idea. I protested against it when the administration did this at the University of Michigan back in the early '90s when I was a student there. That is hardly the issue. This video is simply this week's version of LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 20:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- But it's not like if we don't have an article on it, it's going to fall off the face of the earth. If it becomes an important and oft-cited incident, we report that. But if it doesn't, we shouldn't. shoy 20:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep It seems notable enough. For example I read about it on the other side of the Atlantic ocean, in Sweden. Otherwise the case could be added to the List of cases of police brutality and a redirect created? -Duribald 20:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I just got through reading the article on the UCLA taser incident last year, that was is still of interest, and this one will be to as a reference to similar topics in the future. --Michael Lynn 21:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep It's a very notable event that inolves many moving parts: A former candidate for U.S. President, a university format, police brutality, free speech, the use of recording devices and mainstream websites such as YouTube in quickly spreading news, and so forth. I agree that this is a pinnacle event for Generation Y. Sure it's not the same thing as Kent State, but it is a controversial issue that will be discussed for years to come. I'm sure now whenever people talk about Taser guns, this will be brought up. Whenever people talk about university police, this will be brought up. Whenever people talk about political speeches at colleges, this will be brought up. It has changed a lot of things and the way people look at them. Abog 21:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "A pinnacle event for Generation Y"? How could you possibly know this given that it happened two days ago? Because you speculate that people may talk about this in the future does not mean that this is an important event. When it becomes one, then it is the time for an article. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It already has become an important event. Just like any other event becomes significant immediately after it happens. I've never heard of something being not important and then all of a sudden becoming important 5 years down the road. Abog 21:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Does anyone even remember the UCLA tasing anymore? 128.227.126.157 21:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Plenty of important events happen without notice because their full implications are not known until later. This is a matter for historians and reliable sources to decide, not you, but you've already decided it's "a pinnacle event" based upon lord knows what. It's not important, it's just a passing news item. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Response to this Rhetorical Question I Certainly do, it gets mentioned plenty of times throughout these vote comments, and you yourself also remember it, so I think the answer can be determined to be a "yes." I consider the UCLA incident to be slightly less significant than this incident. There's a Wikipedia article on it too, without a vfd, and I think it should also be kept. --76.114.242.31 22:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete or Transwiki (I'm not volunteering). Passing news item. Many users who have said "Keep" are proposing to use Wikipedia as a soapbox for advocacy, which it is not. If the article is nominated a month or a year from now, they can be expected to make the same arguments plus "notability isn't temporary!" even though we have no argument for notability except "It was on the news," and "It's notable to me." Gazpacho 23:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep at the moment , 1275 news stories in Google Top News. The extreme interest now is a good indication of continuing interest--due not primarily to the police action alone, but the relationship with the presidential campaigns. DGG (talk) 21:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Second arbitrary section break[edit]
- Keep. I suspect that attention to this story will grow rather than fade. MisfitToys 22:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep At the moment, this is a major news story. Whether or not other people agree that it is an important news item is irrelevant. Chris Quackenbush 22:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Being (maybe) a major news story is a reason to have it at Wikinews, not here. Gazpacho 22:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep for now per 23skidoo. VegaDark (talk) 22:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, at least for the time being. --Camptown 22:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Meets notability, and far more than some other articles. LuciferMorgan 22:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Obvious keep - Front page news - Once notable, always notable. — Omegatron 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Transwiki to WikiNews and (merge to various articles) with a link to it via U of F. That looks to be a significant event due the heavy coverage (in North America especially) but it is better suited for WikiNews and the University's article and also maybe some bits for Mr Kerry's article.--JForget 23:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Obvious keep. It's front-page/headline news in numerous national news organizations. Quite a number of people have come here looking for information and details already. This sounds like exactly the sort of thing that an encyclopedia should document. -Krenath 23:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- STRONG DELETE. This article certainly has no encyclopedic longevity; Andrew Meyer is someone who just wanted attention and he got it. Good for him. Don't give him a wikipedia article (or two!). It's undeserving. Timneu22 00:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note: Transwiki to wikinews is not an option because the licensing models are not compatible. Johntex\talk 00:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- keep for now this is no everyday news story. this could turn out to be out generation's Kent state shooting. depending on how this unfolds this artivle will likley have to be re-created anyways.--66.188.133.158 00:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Naively idealistic suggestion for a truce. The article is extremely popular and prominent right now, no fundamental principles seem to be at stake and both sides agree that the present time is the hardest one to determine the scale, implications, impact and all that razz. As such, what reason is there not to close this discussion as temporarily suspended and come back in a month or so? --Kizor 00:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - a sensible suggestion. Dlabtot 02:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We don't normally do issues like this in AFD, and we don't close AFDs as "temporalily suspended". Blahblahme 03:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the info. I'm kinda new here. Dlabtot 04:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I agree we don't "suspend" AFD discussion, but there is plenty of precedent for declaring no consensus, or calling to reconsider this again after a period of time. 23skidoo 04:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've seen it done before. It was weird, but worked quite well. --Kizor 10:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- When has it been done before? Anyways, I agree that a "postpone due to no consensus at this time" decision is a good idea. Revolutionaryluddite 17:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Many articles get a second or third AFD. If an event like this gets a Keep or No consensus now, and it does not turn out to be a "macaca moment" for Kerry, like happened to George Allen in the 2006 Senate campaign, it could later be deleted or given brief mention in an article about him. Since Wikipedia is not paper, we can always take a second look at the encyclopedic nature of a news story. The stated permancy of notability does not mean our judgements of it are not subject to further review. We are not required to have a crystal ball, and instantly determine the long term effects of every newsworthy occurrence. Edison 16:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- delete It's news not encyclopedic content. --345Kai 02:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Delete with option for recreation at a later date Dlabtot had it right. This may be a major story later, but right now, it's not much. Give it a week to a month and see if people keep talking about it. If they do, it would probably make sense to add it back in. It is an issue that involves issues of free speech and police brutality, so it should be notable if it has any legs. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 02:10 (UTC)
- Comment Why was a section break created? Revolutionaryluddite 02:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- They're a common sight in long discussions. From what I can tell, they're created arbitrarily to make the discussion more organized and easier to read and possibly prevent the occasional edit conflict. --Kizor 02:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Really really really strong keep, because telling you how serious I am gives my opinion more weight - Pardon the sarcasm, but I really thought people would have cut that nonsense out by now. Article cites sources, covers a national news event, and is yet another case in what is becoming a controversial issue, the police use of teasers to compel behavior instead of simply to defend themselves.--stufff 02:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS. PaddyM 02:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Important event, not just a news. --Neo-Jay 03:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not encyclopedic. 220.120.157.2 03:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete I don't see any indication why this is considered as an "important event" like many people in this debate is saying. Sure it has alot of news coverage, but that what wikinews was created for, not wikipedia. WP:NOT is a policy. Also it can't be transwikied to wikinews as they have different licences. Blahblahme 03:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: You are correct that it's a policy, however as this AFD shows there are many cases where articles fall into a grey area. I've seen far less-notable news situations become subject of articles that have been kept. I opined to keep earlier on the basis that it is currently a major issue and for us to revisit it in a few months to determine if this stays the case. But I do feel comparing it to things like Kent State where people got killed is rather in poor state and rather offensive -- and it really hurts the argument for keeping this article. That's most likely a contributing factor for why WP:SNOWBALL hasn't been activated because (again as I said in my earlier comments) there's far too much WP:NPOV-violating and WP:ILIKEIT/WP:IDON'TLIKEIT discussion going on. 23skidoo 04:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Just because no one died doesn't mean that it's not significant. There have been a few riots (or even massacres) where no one died. They're still significant. No, the reason why the Kent State comparison is bad is because Kent State shocked a nation. This has yet to do that. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 04:48 (UTC)
- A massacre where no one died? That doesn't seem to agree with the dictionary definition of massacre. --Itub 10:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Regardless of whether you think the event was an incident of police brutality or not, every cable news station has been talking about it all day and something like 1/3 of the most viewed videos on youtube right now are about this incident. I think it's pretty safe to say that it's news whether you like it or not.Ottawastudent 04:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This is a critical event that highlights the tension in our culture between the elite and regular people, violence versus free speech, the controversy surrounding tasering, habeus corpus repealment, arrest without miranda rights or a charge (inciting a riot? are you kidding me?). And for the record, yeah maybe the guy is a jerk, but that doesn't mean he didn't hit on a major news category that millions of people have now been discussing for 2 days. 24.14.125.124 04:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Excellent points. Badagnani 04:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. What does this have to do with habeas corpus? Miranda is reaching a bit, too. Do you have any evidence that he was not mirandized? superlusertc 2007 September 20, 05:04 (UTC)
- Keep. I came here to get an objective overview of the situation, which I believe the article comes pretty close to doing. This guy was all over the news... I can think of many people who are lesser known that have articles here. Rawr 05:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. It is perfectly acceptable for its historical relevance, significance, and importance. The desire to have this article deleted is biased by political motives or to conceal the incident or something about it. If Wikipedia does delete it, then they'd might as well delete many other articles, such as the one about Rosa Parks and her bus seat incident. --76.114.242.31 07:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Look, this isn't Rosa Parks, it's not Kent State, it's not My Lai, it's not anything like that. I think the guy had his rights trampled, but these grandiose comparisons are really offensive and over the top. And they really don't help the discussion. In fact, the only thing that they really do is make the name droppers look foolish. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 07:43 (UTC)
- Look this doesn't have to be Rosa Parks or Kent State or My Lai. Every article here does not have to be as important as the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. We are not paper. We can have an article on a minor river in India and a cartoon show. Let's not look for every article on Wikipedia to have some major cultural impact 10 years from now. We are out to be comprehensive, and that certainly includes an event like this. Johntex\talk 14:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Please do not try to imply that I made a claim that isn't true, I don't appreciate that kind of behavior, especially where it doesn't belong. It needs to be understood how to interpret this statement correctly. This is the interpretation (I'll spell it out for you):
- If either the Rosa Parks bus seat incident, Rosa Parks the individual, or the injustice she was standing up against (yes, you got me, it was a pun) are more significant than this student incident, then the point is "where do we draw the line on how to determine what articles to delete?" But if this incident is equal or greater in significance, well then that obviously would trivialize the argument. --76.114.242.31 03:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment #2. Just because someone comes along and points to something red and says "green" doesn't make it so. You can argue that my argument is foolish, but that won't make it so. I make light of these types of things because your goofy mind tricks don't work, except on the weak minded. I'm also skilled at putting adversaries on the defensive: I myself find it offensive to claim that this incident is somehow insignificant to another without justification or a plausible argument. --76.114.242.31 04:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Slippery slope#The_slippery_slope_as_fallacy. No one here has suggested deleting Rosa Parks' entry. Rosa Parks was an influential part of a US Civil Rights Movement. Mr. Meyer was not. Mr. Meyer thus far has been little more than a footnote in history. Rosa Parks is known to quite a few people in the US. Her name is listed in textbooks. Same with John Brown or Elizabeth Cady Stanton. If you ran a poll today, how many people would be able to recognize Andrew Meyer? It's offensive to place him alongside those whose lives and events have shaped the consciousness of a nation. I should add that if Mr. Meyer does become a great civil rights leader (or even a very minor one), I think that this article should be kept. But there's no indication that this thing will stay on anyone's radar for more than a week.superlusertc 2007 September 21, 04:21 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I'm not sure I agree with this assessment, but that's better. --76.114.242.31 04:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep. I don't know about those on the delete side of the aisle, but this is the most strikingly clear case of unlawful seizure combined with police brutality I've ever seen. Certainly there have been worse cases of police abuse, but this case took place practically in real-time and in living color, therefore it became a very popular news story. Someone mentioned Kent State. If this war drags on or escalates to the level of Vietnam, we might indeed face another Kent State. If so, we will look upon this event as a mere prelude, but until then I strongly suggest we meditate on this for a while, and read the Constitution.--Cjackb 08:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: This is going to be kept but come back in two months and AFD it again, and I guarantee it'll be deleted. 193.95.165.190 08:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. It was notable two days ago, it is notable right now, and it will surely be notable years into the future. This is a very significant event which has already garnered much attention and will surely be of historical value. Also a very fine article in my opinion, especially considering the short time period in which it was written. — xDanielx T/C 09:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete An interesting story, but it's too early to claim that it's notable. My personal guess is that it will be a minor story, half remembered years hence. Of course, my personal guess is no better than anyone else's, but we don't have to guess. We can simply assume non-notable until there is clear, unequivocal evidence otherwise. Phiwum 10:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - except our policy clearly says "when in doubt, don't delete". The burden of proof is on those who want to delete an article. Johntex\talk 14:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This is the most controversial story so far in the Presidential campaign season (and is already being cited in the news as Kerry's downfall), and the details are being reported piecemeal in various media outlets. For example, a Google search for (andrew meyer "constitution day" "swear me in as president") yields no hits. As a professional librarian, I urge the editors to keep this intriguing story as it continues to develop.141.165.80.186 12:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Er, Kerry is not running for president, his downfall was his accidental "end up in Iraq" line, and I don't think I've heard anyone even imply that this was Kerry's fault; he was trying to answer the guy's question and keep everyone calm. -VJ 17:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep A stupid incident, but one which has been reported on extensively, if only for sensationalistic reasons. Don't delete me, bro! 209.146.241.93 13:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. If for no other reason than the fact that the vast majority of "keep" opinions are blatant examples of WP:SOAP. Randydeluxe 14:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Even if true, this has no bearing on the article itself. Johntex\talk 14:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The article itself is about an event that took place. The DISCUSSION page is where opinions are being declared. If the neutrality of the article is the fault, then say that, but don't claim the article itself to be a soapbox when it's about an event that has actually happened.
- Weak Keep. A lot of the 'keep' votes here seem to be crystal-ballery; we shouldn't be making a judgement based on how significant this event will become in future, but based on how notable it is now. And therefore, I say keep it: it received plenty of coverage from news organisations, and has provoked some further discussion on issues of free speech and the use of police powers on campus. A month from now, this event may have proved insignificant and been entirely forgotten; if so, we can delete it then, but for the time being, it does no harm to keep it. Terraxos 14:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Ok, ok, I'm not going to come here and say that we should keep this because this is a life changing event that will ring in history. I'm voting keep because it is a documented incident that has been relivant in the current media. It's been discussed enough on national news media to make it significant enough, I would say...
- Keep as a significant event with significant coverage, per Cjackb. CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong delete there's no way this article could be NPOV, and Wikipedia is not a news service. That's what Wikinews is for. To put into perspective, Northern Rock's financial crisis, which was the second-most important news story in every newspaper in Britain last week, does not have an article, only a subsection (I say "secondmost" given the amount of exposure given to the Madeline McCann disappearance). If this were to happen in not-America, I doubt it would have an article (systemic bias). Will (talk) 15:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, but was the bank president tasered after shouting a dated colloquiallism? ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't exactly see what you're getting at. By the way, Northern Rock's financial crisis has about 16,000 results on Google News, and with it being on the headlines of at least Sky News and BBC News for the few days (Thu-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon) it was ongoing, even overtaking Madeline McCann, it just shows how notable that articleless incident is than the "And finally..." stories such as this incident or "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!", which do. Will (talk) 20:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It was an attempt at humor that did not translate well over the Internet. Here's another comparison: the article is now far more extensive than the coverage Wikipedia gives to the student protests at the 1968 Democratic convention, which does not even have its own article. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 21:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Sceptre's reasoning. This is a non-article. Delete. --Tony Sidaway 15:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "non-article" means what, exactly? It certainly looks like an article. It is written in prose. It has categories. It has reliable references. What makes it a "non-article"? Johntex\talk 16:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a bit of newspaper fluff, not an encyclopedia article. --Tony Sidaway 16:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What is the difference between the two, in your opinion? Is it a question of recentness? If so, would you propose that we bar articles on movies, books, etc, until they have been out on the market for x years and we see if anyone still cares about them? Johntex\talk 16:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Certianly not worthy of an encyclopedia article. WP:NOT#NEWS. Those saying that this is a freedom of speech related event are clearly expressing their point of view. The man resisted to his arrestation and that is why he was tased. Tomj 16:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep some people are saying we shouldn't use crystal ballery to justify keeping the article...so why should it be used to justify deleting? it's important right now, it's still being reported on, it's still generating discussion, so why is wiki trying so speedily to delete it? it's a noteworthy case of police brutality/authority abuse. maybe not as shocking as rodney king or kent state, but it has been extensively covered and could have ramifications in the future on how tasers are applied and how police act at public functions. "don't tase me, bro" even has the chance to become a catchphrase in popular lexicon. i'm not saying it'll be relevant in 3 weeks, but just as i can't say it will be relevant, you can't say it WON'T be. but as for RIGHT NOW, people are still talking. that alone to me says KEEP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.61.28 (talk) 16:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It only happened a few days ago, and the news aren't saying "abuse". It seems like because the video landed on youtube, it seems like abuse. Blahblahme 16:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- I don't care about anybody else's definition of what is appropriate for an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is the first place I came to learn about this event, I found it by searching "kerry taser," and learned what I wanted to know. The fact that the article is useful and relevant even to that degree is justification enough for its inclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.200.117 (talk) 16:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- See WP:USEFUL Blahblahme 16:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:USEFUL is just an essay. It carries no weight. Posting a pretty blue link is not contributing to the discussion. Johntex\talk 17:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a major part of AFD discussion, and many admins follow it. Blahblahme 20:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If any admins are following an essay for guidance in closing AfDs then they need to be de-sysopped immediately. They are supposed to follow AfD closure policy. If an article does not violate policy, then it should be kept. As the closure policy says "when in doubt, don't delete". Johntex\talk 00:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per Tomj. This man does not deserve the attention. At least, remove his name and photo. Greswik 16:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - I thought this incident was pretty significant. I know the guy may have been inciting it deliberately, but the fact of the matter remains that at least four officers were on top of him and he posed no threat; the taser was not warranted. The notoriety the incident gained, aided by the full video and youtube, warrants an article. -VJ 17:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - But precisly because it was incited, it will never be a good example on anything else than a PR-seeking guy knew how to make a policeperson tase him. This is exactly why a comparison with, say, Rodney King is so lame. Greswik 18:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Andrew Meyer, a modern day Herostratus -- Dlabtot 18:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- All Delete noms are based off speculation that this will not become a notable event. You guys say Wikipedia is not a source of current events yet the Main Page has the Current Events section or whatever it is properly called, which often links to current events. Also being said is that if this does become a notable event that it can be re-written. Why throw away work just because right now it is not as notable. I think will all the news coverage, online videos and such that it is already becoming notable. Lets keep this article around for longer. There is no telling what can happen at this point so leave the article be and the future will hold the fate of the article. FuzionZero 17:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment To AfD Starter - This story wasn't shown on television because of the "don't taze me bro" line. This event is obviously much bigger than that. Either you are unaware of all the facts of this event or you have chosen a poor scapegoat to try and delete an important article regarding the first ammendment and police brutality. I can't believe your reason for deleting this was because it was just some event shown on television because of some line that was said. FuzionZero 19:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - actually not all the Delete comments are based on speculation that it will not be a notable event. Some of the comments (such as mine) are based purely on the fact that current events should not have articles on wikipedia... that is what our sister project wikinews is for (the current events section of the main page is taken from wikinews by the way, not from Wikipedia articles). I fully expect that this event will be encyclopedic... it just isn't encyclopedic YET. We need to wait and see what the longer term ramifications and impact of the event will be. At the moment we are still dealing with it 'in the present'. That's why I suggest delete and recreate later is a more accurate option. Blueboar 19:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This may indeed have some long-term notability as one of the more effective pieces of political theater in quite a while. The current story, which doesn't recognize this, is an embarrassment. Many people have still not gotten the joke. This is an excellent place where WP:TIND should be applied. ObiterDicta ( pleadings •
errata • appeals ) 21:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think WP:TIND can be applied on different levels. No deadline means we should not get ahead of the sources, but it also means we don't have to get the whole story on the first try either. Unlike a newspaper, we can continuously improve an article over time, with no deadline. I would agree that the article needs improvement (like most WP articles) but I disagree that deleting it now and recreating it later is the way to get that improvement. Dhaluza 01:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - I think that this incident was blown way out of proportion, and without the massive media coverage would never have been noteworth. However, I think that massive media attention makes it noteworthy. Nosferatublue 17:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep – This made news and appears to be a notable civil rights abuse. —Ben FrantzDale 18:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Third arbitrary section break[edit]
- Don't delete me, bro! - The article is well-sourced. Mfko 18:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Best....Comment....Here. Johntex\talk 00:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - The extent and character of the coverage outwiegh accusations of recentism. The incident has also become something of an internet phenomenon. From a Wired reporter: "Don't Tase Me, Bro!" Jolts the Web. Quote: "Just two days after it was yelled out in a University of Florida lecture hall, "Don't Tase Me, Bro!" has become the newest cultural touchstone of our pop-cultural lexicon." Ichormosquito 19:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So maybe the article should be moved to Don't tase me bro and focus more on the meme? ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 21:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think the meme is notable enough on its own. Ichormosquito 21:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - It's becoming news all over Europe and is being cited as an alleged example of police brutality, lack of freedom of speech and/or fear instilled by terrorist threats and events like the Virginia Tech massacre in the US. May be irrelevant in the future, but I think it should be kept for now. I actually came here to check for more information Universalcosmos —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - I presume that the function of Wikipedia is to inform and to educate its users guided by the idea that knowledge is an inherent good. This incident has appeared on national and international media. Regardless of that fact, the tasering of an individual when asking a question of an elected official is an extremely important event in a democracy. Regardless, of that fact, whether or not the police used unreasonable force on a citizen is an extremely important issue for all members of a society governed by the rule of law. It is contrary to the function of an encyclopedia to handicap public discourse by deleting an entry capable of elucidating the details of such an event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.93.101.197 (talk) 21:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - Non-notable. He'll have his 15 minutes of fame and people who see this article 1 year from now will have a skewed perspective from the article, i.e. they might come away thinking that anyone still cares about it or he matters at all. General Epitaph 22:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - This belongs on Wikinews...and it belongs on Wikipedia too. The two are not mutually exclusive as some have implied here. As for WP:NOT#NEWS, this is becoming one of the most widely misused policy shortcuts on AfD. The issue there is context, and the encyclopedic contexts of civil liberties vs. civil behavior have been laid out many ways above. Notability is a complete non-issue now, there never really was any reasonable doubt. For the people arguing wait and see on both sides, Notability is permanent--if the incident was a hoax, and the cops were really actors, and the taser was a prop, even that would make it more notable, not less. Notability is about whether something has been noticed by RS, not whether it meets some editor's personal opinion of whether it should be noticed. I think many of the comments, both keep and delete are not about what's best for WP readers, but are supporting the actions of the police or the taser victim. Amd I think many of the delete votes do not represent deletionism, as much as denialism. It happened; people know about it; so we can talk about it. Dhaluza 00:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep - Don't delete me Bro! per Mfko. This is not even a close call. Two published sources. Fin. Thesmothete 01:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, because this can be referred back to by people who didn't know what happened and can't find any information on it because all of the news articles have expired since, despite this being an actual event.
--60.241.159.88 02:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fourth arbitrary section break[edit]
- Delete. WP:NOT#NEWS was designed for news stories like this. When I first heard this story I was shocked and I thought this was a major breach of civil rights. Then I watched it on Youtube and realized this was just an obnoxious, whining student who clearly intended to get some kind of big reaction (I think "attention-whore" is the official term). Interestingly, many of the delete !votes are from editors who regularly take part in afd discussions, so they may be editors who are more familiar with deletion policy and Wikipedia policy in general than many of the keep !voters, most of whom appear to be saying "keep" based on variations of WP:ILIKEIT and "it's big news!". It is insignificant news, a student does something stupid and they show the tape on TV for a few hours. So what? This is an encyclopedia, look it up on Google news if you want to read about this. Crazysuit 02:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Attention whores can be encyclopedic, as well. What about Rollen Stewart? His article survived an AfD.superlusertc 2007 September 21, 02:47 (UTC)
- WP:NOT#NEWS is not designed to exclude significant news events--if it was, then the "design" does not represent Consensus, as demonstrated by the comments in this AfD. WP:NOR cautions us to avoid drawing un-sourced conclusions, and your delete argument is largely based on one. If RS say he was an "attention-whore" then it would be relevant to the article, and could be added with cites. But it is not a reason to delete, especially if it is just an editor's opinion, not an accepted fact. Dhaluza 02:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Appears to meet the standards of multiple reliable sources... SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strongest Possible Keep - This article is highly notable it has been covered multiple times on major news outlets. This deletion attempt reeks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -- Gudeldar 04:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Article refers to a relatively high profile news event. Article may need to be disaggregated due to noteworthiness of two (2) aspects contained in the article; "Andrew Meyer" and the catchphrase "Don't Tase Me, Bro!". (DTMB may become as popular in 2007 as "Where's the beef?" was in 1984. I myself am currently in the market for a DTMB t-shirt, but I digress.)72.82.198.34 04:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep. This is a notable event receiving a heap of news coverage. Yes, Timotab, notable events tend to get most of their news coverage in the days immediately after the event, but that is in no way a suitable argument for deletion. Besides, you are making an unmerited prediction that this will all "blow over," whatever that means. CelestialDog 06:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Keep, but read my comment for some arguments about the article. We should see how this pans out. Notability is probably asserted, although to what degree exactly we probably don't know. The WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT arguments are not reasons to keep or delete an article. Yes, it is verifiable, but we need to look at its notability with regard to other issues - e.g. Freedom of speech, Homeland security, Internet memes etc. and then in a few months time, if the public decide it was a flash-in-the-pan incident, then it can be revisited at WP:AfD again. For now though, it's a weak keep. --Solumeiras talk 13:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete (again) I already voted for deletion above, but I have a new argument. The International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust in Iran made much more headlines in December 2006. Now, just a few months later, it looks like a not-notable event that should have been barely mentioned in the Holocaust denial article. I'm sure that in a few months the Taser event will be flushed down in history, and will not be worth more than a brief summary in other articles about police brutality or the elections. -- Gabi S. 14:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I specifically disagree with this line of argument. One of Wikipedia's advantages over other encyclopedae is its virtually unlimited size. So, unlike other encyclopedae, it does not need to limit its usefulness to that of the general reader. I certainly hope that we keep the CRGVH article indefinitely, so that someone who, for example, is researching, say, Iran's evolving approach to the Holocaust, or comparing attitudes across Muslim countries, or the breath of international conferences. The thing about knowledge is that you don't always know in advance what you're going to use. What is the harm in keeping the article? The .01 cents of disk space? In this case, there is already a meme being promulgated "Don't taze me, bro" It seems quite likely that, years from now, someone, somewhere will utter that phrase and someone else will want to look it up to find out what it means. Why would we intentionally delete the answer? Thesmothete 15:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We're getting somewhat offtopic, so any follow-up discussions can be done on my talk page, or by e-mail. Regarding your position, I didn't mean to not include these topics, but to keep them as part of other articles, rather than independent articles. The meme also can be mentioned in several articles with phrases that arose on political situations. In all these cases, proper redirect links will guide the interested user to the article that includes the relevant incident. Independent articles should have notability above a certain threshold which, in my opinion, these events don't meet. -- Gabi S. 18:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- How can a single editor state their wish for deletion twice? That seems very strange, and not allowed. Badagnani 19:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If this were a vote, you'd have a point. We wouldn't want people to vote twice. But it's not a vote. It's a discussion. Dlabtot 02:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - NOT#NEWS doesn't say no current events, it just reminds us that we don't do all current events. This article may be notable now, and yeah, if five months or five years down the line it isn't, we'll delete it then - although I'd remind everyone that notability doesn't expire as popularity or memory fades. The potential for future non-notability, however, is not the same thing as being non-notable now. So keep. --Cheeser1 15:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep for all the good reasons already mentioned. AugustinMa 15:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete this is just another pointless occurrence, no more notable than those car chases they televise on cops, or a crack head who tried to run from the coppers and got beaten down for it. There's no article on Billy-Bob Crackpipe so why does this tosser who merely was tazed for resisting arrest deserve his own? Remember kids, your rights are yours to exercise until they impinge upon someone else's rights, anyone who disagrees is wrong. In either case, the article is written like dogshit. Comradeash 16:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep per all keep facts mentioned above --Mothmolevna (©
® ) 16:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per 23skidoo, but definitely revisit this issue in a few months for reevaluation. Burntsauce 18:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This incident is in fact historically important because of the questions the guy asked, because of Kerry's reaction to everything (tells us something about Kerry) and because of student reactions. Then there's also the police. Sure police brutality happens a lot but seriously. Also the "attention" at the top of this page should be deleted. Why does it matter if someone created an account to voice their opinion over this? If it's just a particular incident that gets someone involved with wikipedia entries then... what's wrong with that? How does that make their opinion less valid? It all seems like vote-rigging to me.75.72.206.28 18:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Vote-rigging? Unless you're accusing the "Keep" side of rigging, it seems pretty unlikely that any vote rigging is going on. Why would the deleters rig the "delete" side to lose? superlusertc 2007 September 21, 21:18 (UTC)
- This event is notable and worthy of an entry because (1) The police removed him not because he asked a question, but because the particular questions he asked challenged Kerry. This is a violation of his First Amendment Constitutional right to freedom of speech. (2) He was tasered while he was face-down on the ground and under the officers' control, which constitutes police brutality. (3) Due to these aspects of the incident, it has received a large amount of coverage in the news media. So the nature of the questions Meyer asked is just part of one of the aspects that make this event worthy of an entry. The nature of his questions was the reason the officers removed him, which again, is a violation of the First Amendment. CelestialDog 19:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No-one ever seems to be aware of the bit about not having any protected rights on private property. He was told to leave, the police were merely enforcing that his from thereon in trespass came to a close, who gives a shit about what part of the rant he was up to, he was asked to leave by someone on the venues authority, he didn't, he was removed. Comradeash 14:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, really? I thought this incident occurred at a university, not on the private property of a recluse with "keep out!" and "no trespassing!" signs posted all around the perimeter. As a tuition-paying student can he demand a refund + interest for failure to provide that to which he is entitled? Even the general public usually has access to many of these types of university resources. Mr. Kerry, who was apparently interested in hearing his questions, answering them, and even wanting him to remain to hear his responses is speaking as a public servant, so I don't think you can argue that he wanted him to leave. Police are also supposed to be public servants. What's this "authorities" business? Do we live in a dictatorship? Is Orwell's Big Brother in control? I'm going to bring up Rosa Parks, again. Was she someone who was just trying to cause trouble & be disorderly, or was she doing the right thing by standing up against oppression & dictatorship? Is this student just a disruptive troublemaker, or is he doing something necessary & important? In either case, these are significant incidences about significant issues, and they should never be flushed down the "memory hole." --76.114.242.31 19:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, more or less (public universities do have the right to kick you off their property--for example, if you haven't paid for a course). But this is not the place to discuss whether you think he was right. This is the place to discuss whether you think it's encyclopedic. superlusertc 2007 September 23, 04:24 (UTC)
Keep for time being, revisit in 6 months. StaticElectric 19:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy Delete transwiki to wikinews. Whether or not this current event is notable will be answered in time, but for now, it is news. Testtest03 19:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep And, keep forever, you can't just keep something until it's notability goes away. If its notable now, it always will be. Anyway, if someone like Chris Crocker gets to keep his article, barely being notable, something like this should. It's sparked controversy on our first amendment and has been on the FRONT PAGE article of several news websites. Xihix 20:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Bordering from Keep and Keep for now If the incident turns out to be 15 minute fame, then we can delete it later. No rush. If the incident turns out to be a notable example of police brutality, then we can keep this forever. May violates WP:NOT#NEWS at first instance, but I think we should give this a chance. Chris! my talk 22:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- VERY STRONG KEEP This is an event in history and information is plentiful as is sources to cite. It has every potential that a wikipedia article needs. Not only that, but there is nothing in WP:NOT. That says that this can't be here.As long as it doesn't violate WP:NPOV, it can stay --Amaraiel 01:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Notable already, enough sourcing; if he decides to press a suit or anything, it will just get more still coverage. I can't see a reason to delete right now. If nothing else comes of it, and the press drops it completely in a week, renominate it again in a few months. • Lawrence Cohen 02:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep incident meets Wikipedia notability standards having received non-trivial coverage by notable third party sources.--Jersey Devil 03:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Side Note -- Other stuff exists is not a valid argument[edit]
(This a sidebar from the central discussion)
- Comment - again, that is just an essay. It is opinion of some Wikipedians that drawing analogies to other articles is not a valid argument. That is merely their opinion, and it is not policy. In order to delete this article, those who want to dispose of it must show an actual policy that it violates. Johntex\talk 14:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, Wikipedia is not a breaking news source. The existence of other articles does not automatically warrant the existence of this one. Closing admin should note that a lot of the keep arguments in the first couple of sections are particularly weak or aren't reasons to keep an article (not saying all the keep arguments are like this, though). --Coredesat 21:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment, I could say the same about the delete arguments. Connör (talk) 00:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, This really does contradict with NN, a mere summary in an article about police brutality or something would do. Ryan4314 04:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: It seems to me that they're a lot of WP:CRYSTAL ballery going on, "This is going to be a landmark case for years to come" etc. versus "Everyone's going to forget this in a week" etc. shoy 04:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- EMPHATIC KEEP: I was shocked at Kerry's inaction, and the inaction of the student observers, and now you the public want to delete the occurence!?? It's not just about police brutality, it's about unabridged free speech. People please!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.166.252 (talk) 11:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - It's not about free speech. It's about him being an idiot and resisting officers. Timneu22 13:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Damn bloody straight, its just so unfortunate that so many people aren't aware of the limitations of their precious constitution. Comradeash 14:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Whether it is about free speech or police brutality, it would be notable either way. The fact that there is a heated debate over which one it is makes it all the more notable. Johntex\talk 14:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with Jontex... An AfD is never about free speech or some guy being an idiot. An AfD is about whether an article's topic is notable enough for an encyclopedia. Some feel it is, some feel it isn't... I happen to feel it isn't notable enough YET (Then again, I take a long term, wait and see attitude on all articles about recent events, I don't think you can assess encyclopedic notability until at least a few weeks after an event has happened). Blueboar 19:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This illustrates the weakness of the Delete arguments. Some people (including WP:RSs, think this is a violation of the First Amendment. Other people think that it isn't, or that a violation of the First Amendment isn't important. Whether or not you want to keep it depends on how important the First Amendment is. Nobody who believes that the First Amendment was violated has called for deletion. The objections are based on personal opinion. I think this debate should be resolved in favor of a keep. You can include POVs in the entry arguing for and against that viewpoint in the article. Nbauman 18:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Uh, could you tell me how my link to WP:NOT#NEWS and my spiel about systemic bias automatically makes me believe the First Amendment wasn't violated? (Besides, it's totally irrelevant to a deletion discussion) Will (talk) 18:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - this nomination is here under the rationale but this has no lasting, encyclopedic interest. We're not entertaining opinions here. I don't care, I don't care what any of your people's opinions are, the secondary sources establish notability and that has been well established. If I understand ANYTHING about Wikipedia's deletion policies, this is a clearcut keep case and I recommend closing this discussion in a timely manner. -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 16:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. How can this be up for deletion but a similar article(The UCLA Taser Incident) is not? It is also notable because it has resparked the debate on stun guns/tasers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.163.94 (talk) 16:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep - Actual Event; gained national prominence in the media; involved once and possibly future Presidential Candidate (who did nothing by the way - between Kerry and Bush (who kept reading the goat story as the buildings fell), well, that's what you get with a stinky two party system ruled by rich spineless losers, but that's off topic); shows the increasing crack-down on the right to free speech, one of the U.S.'s great claims to freedom; shows overuse of force by Police; UCLA taser incident is still a Wiki page; we don't know how this will turn out so we cannot make claims about irrelevance or future status; major YouTube hit therefore entered into Pop culture (especially with all the song remixes); shows the increasing slide into fascism in the U.S.; well referenced and cited, etc. Saudade7 23:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Minor, hilarious testament to effect on internet culture. Ichormosquito 01:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious Keep The very fact that so many are even commenting on this page is evidence that it is pretty dang important. Internet culture at its finest. Police overreaction. Political depth. This story has it all. How could we possibly even think of deleting it? It's a fine picture of American internet culture today. Wrad 02:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Side Note -- Please close[edit]
(This a sidebar from the central discussion)
- Comment - This looks like a pretty clear keep. Can we close it and get it out of the article? — Omegatron 23:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This section is not "part of the article" as such. Also, I don't see a clear consensus on keep- more like a simple majority for keep. Please see the discussion above (in the 'Second arbitrary section break' part) about a proposal to postpone the deletion discussion. Revolutionaryluddite 23:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I would support an early closure to keep. The keep arguments are clearly stronger both in substance and in number. At the worst case, this would be a non-consensus, which is effectively the same as a keep. As Omegatron says, lets close this and get the tag off the article. Johntex\talk 00:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The keep arguments are clearly stronger both in substance and in number. That's your opinion; please don't disimiss other users beliefs out of hand. At the worst case, this would be a non-consensus, which is effectively the same as a keep. 'No consensus' does not mean the same thing as 'keep'; please review the Wikipedia guidelines on deletion. Revolutionaryluddite 01:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I stand by both my statements. Every post here (with the exception of a few comments) contains someones opinions. My opinion is The keep arguments are clearly stronger both in substance and in number. You are welcome to form your own opinion.
- I did not say "'No consensus' means the same thing as 'keep'". Please review what I wrote, it was, "At the worst case, this would be a non-consensus, which is effectively the same as a keep." (emphasis added) A keep results in the article being kept. So does a no consensus. Therefore, they are effectively the same.
- Therefore, some bold admin should invoke WP:SNOW and close this in favor of keeping the article. Johntex\talk 01:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It frustrating to see user after user say 'Keep: I like it', but the majority is clearly on one side and there's no point in continuing the AfD. Revolutionaryluddite 01:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not a majority-take-all vote. --ElKevbo 02:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Do we usually close after just one day? Badagnani 01:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If the nomination is disruptive or meets WP:SNOW, sure. Is it just me, or is every article about a current event nominated? For good reason, or just to put a big tag on the page that they know all kinds of newcomers to Wikipedia are visiting? This obviously goes above and beyond trivial news, and the (de facto) voters are in agreement. — Omegatron 02:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that a few of the NOTNEWS AfDs are basically people voting for whether they agree with the thing. You can see that here. Many people seem to be forgetting that AfDs are Template:notaforum, and they're suggesting that because they personally don't like what the guy did, he shouldn't get the benefit of a Wikipedia article. There are valid reasons for wanting to see articles like this deleted; I'm not sure if it's appropriate to paint all the delete voters with the same "attention whore" brush that they have been using.
- I still say that we don't have enough perspective to write a proper article about it, and we don't know if it will have any staying power (I'd like to see it have some staying power, and I think it's more likely than me getting a pony). But I don't have any strong opinions on this. If it's kept, I'll be just as happy as if it gets deleted. superlusertc 2007 September 21, 03:41 (UTC)
- I agree that WP:NOT#NEWS is frequently being used to cloak WP:IDON'TLIKEIT arguments and give them an air of authority. That policy is based on context, and ironically is used out of context far too often. Dhaluza 10:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just Keep it ... there comes a point when if enough people are willing to argue about an event it becomes encyclopedic for that reason whether or not it was originally worth having. That point has been reached, and the point has been made quite well that it is a notable event anyway. Bugsy 14:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I don't see anything in WP:NOTABLE that indicates that something becomes encyclopedic "if enough people are willing to argue about" it.
- And BTW, putting your comments in boldface does not make them in any way more persuasive Dlabtot 19:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - this is clearly a notable event in U.S. History and is obviously encyclopedic. --Sprhodes 04:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This is the kind of crystal ballery I'm talking about. The Revolutionary War was a notable event in U.S. History. This was an arrest and happened a week ago. shoy 17:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. WP:NOT#NEWS is being grossly misapplied here, and I think it is high time we close this discussion as the community seems split over this issue for the time being. RFerreira 03:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It would be a gross error to close this AFD prematurely as a "snowball." There is clear disagreement here, and no "snowball" result at all. A premature closure would only likely result in deletion review and unnecessary Wikidrama. Let the process play out and let the AFD continue for the usual 5 days. Edison 04:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it certainly does need to be kept. Police brutality is becoming a bigger and bigger issue in this country, and with many other possibly taser-misuse cases now coming to light, it is obvious that the more people that know about this, the more likely some kind of change will be made. You can't suppress history, that is a message that should be getting across right now.---- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.87.139.26 (talk)
- Delete - my opinions have been echoed by others above- way too many are doing the crustall ball thing and saying "this'll be a landmark police brutality case", yet there has been no such evidence to that conclusion as of yet. David Fuchs (talk) 17:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It's just as much of a crystall-ball move to say it won't be notable as to say it will be. Wrad 19:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Was the deletion of the comment above David Fuchs' intentional? If so, I apologize superlusertc 2007 September 23, 21:36 (UTC)
- Keep A viable article with information about a nationally recognised news story, this is an article with much information on a pertinent current affair. Geoking66talk 23:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Sources were never provided. Chick Bowen 01:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Dunk production (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
[52] suggests this is not a notable basketball statistic - Looks like OR Rumping 19:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
it is a real stat for gods sake it makes sense and please keep it up even if it is not widely used u have to admit its useful at the least —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.127.38 (talk) 23:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Even the article admits that it's a "realitively (sic) unknown stat". Clarityfiend 02:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, what does that matter? So anything unknown to most people should get deleted? More people will find out about this stat if it stays up here, and it actually makes sense, its not some stupid wikipedia page that someone makes that has nothing to do with anything, this actually is a statistic that makes perfect sense. It shows the best dunkers in the NBA, period. Its not made up or spam or anything, its just an unknown stat, and wikipedia's purpose is to show people information they do not know, which is what this article will do for dunk production. More people will find out about the stat and find it interesting and informative, and thats the bottom line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.127.38 (talk) 02:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It might help if you could point to other places where the statistic is used or tabulated, just to reassure people that it is not a personal invention. --Rumping 13:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
People talk about it all the time on espn message boards http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba&id=general
and on real.gm theres a couple of players who are shown to be great dunkers and dunk productioners —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.127.38 (talk) 23:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- [53] and gives no hits. Nor do [54] or [55]. [56] gets some but they don't seem to support the statistic. --Rumping 18:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - needs Citations to survive its next encounter with AfD Exit2DOS2000•T•C• 17:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]- Speedy Delete + salt in light of evidence and lack of any Cite = COI + hoax Exit2DOS2000•T•C• 19:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
dude you searched espn.com on google, not espn.coms message boards
go to the boston celtics message board and they talk about it all the time
and im sure on google youll find some dunk production threads on there, it should pop up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.91.192.161 (talk) 18:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's follow up your suggestion and look at [57] which which shows you ("SIRSPORKS4" on epsn reversed to "Skropsris" when you wrote Dunk production) are using Wikipedia to claim the statistic exists. A clear case of Conflict of Interest and Original Research --Rumping 11:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DP (dunk production) IS a real stat. It was used heavily in the highschool/college teams I played for. Just because it doesnt show up on the back of player cards or on your favorite stat website doesnt make it FAKE. Oh yeah, and for the dude above..."Skropsris" is a slang term in Latvian, dont you think if it was the "Sirsporks4" guy that he'd put the number in at the end of "Skropsris" too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reggieramone (talk • contribs) 14:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
|
