Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Metroidvania games

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 11:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List of Metroidvania games[edit]

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Per this discussion, there was no consensus to split this list off to its own page. The one person who was in favor of a split ended up changing his mind through the discussion (but didn't strike though his position). All the history is preserved at Metroidvania. The conclusion of the discussion was that "Metroidvania" is an impossibly vague term and it's not Wikipedia's place to define it strictly through this list. Axem Titanium (talk) 13:07, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Axem Titanium (talk) 13:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete on the nom's principle and the past discussion linked - the full list of every possible game in a genre is just not feasible. I only note that there is a significant contribution from one editor beyond the split that we might want to consider a history merge at deletion just to retain those contribution. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There is a whole list of Category:Video game lists by genre, are you suggesting that all of them should go also, or that "Metroidvania" is inherently a more difficult thing to categorize? I'm not sure that I buy that argument, especially if there is WP:RS backup for each listing. shoy (reactions) 15:35, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I do argue that Metroidvania is a more difficult thing to categorize and that conclusion falls out of the linked discussion. "First person shooter", as a genre, has a set of necessary and sufficient characteristics. It is a game with a viewpoint from the first person. Shooting, of a sort, occurs. While there are games on the periphery that are more challenging to place, it's generally very cut and dry. For "Metroidvania", even the most confident of taxonomists (Szczepaniak, Parish) show considerable variation in their definitions and most sources that make reference to the concept use it in a casual, informal way, intentionally leaving the term ill-defined. In 20 years since the premiere of Symphony of the Night, the world of game criticism hasn't settled on a set of necessary and sufficient criteria to define the "genre" (sneer quotes). Its actual usage is that of evoking a feeling, not describing a trait/quality. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:51, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Axem Titanium: But basically every item in the list is sourced to an WP:RS already that calls it a Metroidvania game (or equivalent language). We're after verifiability, not truth here; it's not up to us to categorize the games. shoy (reactions) 18:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - Even in the face of VNT, I think it's disingenuous to present all instances of a term that is KNOWN to be vague as having equal weight. Most RS use it in an extremely casual way which has the effect of making the term's meaning so broad as to be no longer useful for categorization. If everything can be construed as a Metroidvania, then nothing is. It does the reader a disservice. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:40, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 16:50, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree that "Metroidvania" is simply not a "vague" categorization. It has been agreed upon by the gaming press that Metroidvania is a genre unto itself, and it has been mentioned countless times in reviews, etc. Therefore, by virtue of the fact that Category:Video game lists by genre exists, the Metroidvania list deserves its own page. In addition, it clogs up the Metroidvania article and clearly some work went into the list, but it doesn't seem right to include in the main article itself due to its massive length.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 14:36, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As Axem Titanium nicely explained, "Metroidvania" isn't a genre, and I'd move that it no longer be described as such on the Metroidvania article. The fact that the term is used "countless times" in reliable sources doesn't mean it is a genre, anymore than "Blast-a-thon" or "Shovelware" are genres. Sum point, we have no commonly agreed upon standards for inclusion in a list of Metroidvania games, making it inappropriate for Wikipedia. The content can easily be moved to other places on the web (Encyclopedia Gamia, for one).--Martin IIIa (talk) 16:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not a useful list for an encyclopedia due to a host of problems, among them being the wide variation in definitions (including the name itself--many sources uses phrases like "Metroid-style" and other such terms interchangeably with "Metroidvania"), the informality with which the term tends to be used (i.e., it tends to be used to evoke a feeling, rather than actually describe the game), the lack of articles by anyone other than Jeremy Parish or John Sczcepaniak that attempt to chronicle the genre (rather than using it ad-hoc in reference to a specific game or two, as the vast majority of sources do), the recency of the term's proliferation resulting in a severe bias toward recent games, and the disagreement over whether the "genre" is actually a genre or not. I'm doubtful even of the main article's relevance to Wikipedia, let alone a list of such games. Phediuk (talk) 17:26, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.