Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Major League Baseball players investigated for domestic violence

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. A close call, but in the end the WP:BLP arguments win. – bradv🍁 04:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of Major League Baseball players investigated for domestic violence[edit]

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List of Major League Baseball players investigated for domestic violence (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Article violates WP:CRIME. Simply being investigated for a crime is not in itself notable. TM 20:14, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. TM 20:14, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. TM 20:14, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:16, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete 100% violation of WP:CRIME A living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until the contrary is decided by a court of law. Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured. Lightburst (talk) 20:21, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to "List of Major League Baseball players suspended for domestic violence" at a minimum to address the BLP concerns. This article does not meet any criteria for speedy deletion. Eagles 24/7 (C) 20:28, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and move Surely a talk page discussion would have been in order WP:BEFORE coming to AfD? The player conduct policy in MLB leading to domestic violence suspensions is noteworthy in a similar way as List of Major League Baseball players suspended for performance-enhancing drugs. If there are BLP concerns, they can be addressed appropriately by changing the scope of the article as would be needed. The list criteria is clear and this does indeed not meet any CSD. MLB does not require a conviction in a court of law for suspending a player,[1] hence WP:CRIME doesn't seem relevant to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:08, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Upon further thought, I don't think this should be moved. The players on this list were all investigated, there is verification of that. Crimes do not have to have been committed for players to be investigated as part of the policy. There's nothing here that says they committed domestic violence, but that they were investigated for it, which is true. There is no presumption of guilt here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:19, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy move as above to address the issues of WP:CRIME. Begin discussion on the talk page there and then return to AfD only if consensus isn't reached. Ifnord (talk) 21:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I have some real issues with this article... for example including Yasiel Puig seems wrong considering he was cleared of any wrong doing by video evidence and it was a case of mistaken identification... he shouldn't be on there at all.. lots of people can be "investigated" but being tied to it forever in an article like this is wrong and in violation of BLP concerns. I'd prefer it be deleted but it should at least be renamed and focused just on suspended players... if the article even has a purpose of existing... need more context on all the players at a minimum. Spanneraol (talk) 21:37, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Spanneraol, well then perhaps the page can be limited to those suspended, removing Puig and Sano. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:03, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It's inappropriate to compile this list of people who have not been convicted in a court of law and give the inference that that was the case. ⌚️ (talk) 21:42, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep MLB has a Domestic Violence Policy that was agreed to by the union representing the players listed on this page, which includes announcing when players are under investigation. Nobody's rights are being violated by this page. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 22:36, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The list will never complete and the list will be always subjected to BLP violations. BLP policies these days are dubious than ever. Mohanabhil (talk) 04:24, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike List of Major League Baseball players suspended for performance-enhancing drugs, this list lacks any relevance to the game and the players involved. Mohanabhil (talk) 04:27, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Mohanabhil: This list is complete. Please read the article, the MLB instituted their domestic violence policy in August 2015 and have announced all players under investigation as it happens. Eagles 24/7 (C) 13:28, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mohanabhil, uh, players being suspended isn't relevant to the game they are suspended from? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:44, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:00, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Compiling a list of people who have merely been investigated without subsequently facing any disciplinary action totally violates the spirit of WP:CRIME. There are giant BLP red flags all over this article. If someone wants to create a list article of people who have actually been suspended by MLB for domestic violence infractions, we can argue about that article at a later date. However, I feel that it's important for this article (and its entire history) to be expunged from Wikipedia on BLP grounds. Ejgreen77 (talk) 18:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ejgreen77: 14 players have been officially investigated by the MLB for domestic violence. 12 of them received discipline. Do you believe outright deletion of the entire article is better than a rename and removal of the two players who did not receive any discipline? Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. See my comment above. Those false charges will live on in the article history unless this article is deleted. Seems like a perfect place to invoke WP:TNT to me. Ejgreen77 (talk) 19:07, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a false allegation that the MLB announced an investigation into those two players and placed them on administrative leave. You seem to be arguing for speedy deletion and there is no criteria at WP:CSD that this article qualifies for. This article can be renamed and those two players removed from the table very simply, so TNT does not apply here. Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:16, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not arguing for speedy deletion. Plain old regular deletion will work fine for me. But, I do think that this article and its history have no place on Wikipedia. Just because MLB made a mistake doesn't mean that we need to make one, too. Ejgreen77 (talk) 19:27, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By your logic, we should expunge any mention of Trump's impeachment from Wikipedia, since he wasn't convicted. This isn't a random list of non-notable people who were investigated for crimes. There are hundreds of stories out there about each entry on this list, including the two players who weren't suspended. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well Trump actually was impeached, just like Clinton was and its part of his history. This allegations by themselves dont belong. There certainly needs to be more context, even for the ones who were suspended. Spanneraol (talk) 20:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're splitting hairs. An impeachment without a conviction is the political equivalent of an indictment without a conviction—or, in the MLB context, an investigation without a suspension. Are you arguing that these allegations should be prohibited from being mentioned on Puig's or Sano's pages? - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 02:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
an indictment and a trial is notable, even if found not guilty.. an allegation that is proven to be without merit and doesn't lead to charges is not. Spanneraol (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Neither the Sano nor Puig allegations were "proven to be without merit." You also didn't answer my question. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 04:19, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete since investigations are based on suspicion and not actual clear evidence this is a way of accusing people who may be innocent. It is a horrible standard for a list.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep No different than the PEDs article. Received significant coverage in reliable sources and, through suspensions (or lack thereof, in some cases) had a major impact on the game on the field. Not that the latter is required - there's no conclusive evidence Pete Rose betting on baseball had any impact on the outcome of Reds games, and to suggest otherwise would indeed be a BLP violation, but it's still highly notable and covered on this wiki. Smartyllama (talk) 15:22, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have a problem with a list of players suspended for domestic violence, but including anyone investigated is not appropriate. So this article needs to be revised as others have proposed above or deleted. Rlendog (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xinbenlv Talk, Remember to "ping" me 05:44, 21 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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