Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kent Tate

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. This was a fairly complicated discussion, including various guidelines, some reasoned IAR, and a number of changing !votes, as well as the subject's request for deletion and their involvement in editing.

There is now a clear consensus that notability is established and an IAR argument that the COI(s) were so significant as to necessitate deletion were disagreed with. The discussion about the subject wanting the article deleted, along with the discussion that the author was disrupting the editing of the article/wishing its deletion for an alternate article, are less applicable unless a No consensus decision was being considered or there was firmly clear consensus for an IAR on it.

There is the possibility that the additional sources may allow some additional editing. Several alluded to (but not digitally available) sources may be accessible by use of any and all of Refdesk, Wikipedia Library and Resource request. Nosebagbear (talk) 14:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kent Tate[edit]

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Article subject has requested deletion of their article, VRTS ticket # 2019122410002207. This is a procedural action; I hold no opinion as to the notability of the article subject. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I've contributed some minor details to this article, mostly because the main contributor limited by COI rules can't directly improve the page. Various awards and other sources establish notability. IMHO the filmmaker is wrong about the purpose of this article, it is not supposed to mirror everything in his self-published bio. Of course this bio (=personal website) is linked in the infobox. Even a stub would be better than nothing and help users (including Googlebot) to figure out basic facts (Canada, awards, vimeo account, etc.) The article is already far better than a stub and further improvements incl. a filmography are planned or discussed on the talk page. This all or nothing AFD makes no sense for me. –84.46.52.190 (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete in no way so notable that we should keep the article against the subject's wish.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: ongoing relevant discussion at teahouse. This appears to be an overreaction to unsourced info being removed. But perhaps a related notability discussion is in order. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:22, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, the Christmas teahouse discussion with the artist is already archived and presumably matches the OTRS request. –84.46.53.207 (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I accepted this article from AFC, he is borderline notable so thought it might survive an AFD, but if the subject would rather it was deleted, I have no issue with that. Theroadislong (talk) 17:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request for information: Coffee, is it possible for you to tell us what reason, if any, the subject of the article gives for wanting deletion? Without knowing that we can't assess whether the request is a valid one or not. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @JBW: Unfortunately, per the Wikimedia Foundation's confidentiality agreement, I cannot divulge anything more from the communications system. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:25, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Coffee: I rather thought that would be the answer, but I asked on the off chance that it wouldn't. Thanks for answering, anyway. It is difficult, though, to assess a deletion request if one doesn't know the reason for the request. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @JBW: I wikilinked the archived Christmas teahouse discussion above, and as there actually was a matching OTRS request later Kent tate presumably is Kent Tate. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 22:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I note the following facts. An earlier article on the same subject was deleted as promotional. Two ~~single-purpose~~ COI accounts have now created two identical drafts for an article on the same subject, much more complimentary about him than the existing article. I would not wish to see the article deleted at the subject's request in order that he can have an article more to his liking posted on his behalf. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I now realise that one of the accounts LorriBrown, is not, in fact, a single purpose account, as I said above. Far more of the account's editing has been related to Kent Tate than to any other single subject, but there have also been many edits on other topics. I apologise for the mistake. The other account, however, Cheri Brown, is a genuine single-purpose account. Among a total of 726 edits (most of them now deleted) I have not found a single one unrelated to Kent Tate. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JBW, could you link them please? Thanks. Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked to find the pages in order to answer Usedtobecool's request, I have found that there have actually been more of them than I realised. There have been at least two articles Kent Tate that have been deleted, both created by Cheri Brown, though one had been moved to Draft:Kent Tate before deletion, which is why I didn't see it at first. Then there is, of course, the current version of the article, created by LorriBrown. Then there are at least four user space drafts for the article which have not been deleted, though two of them have been blanked: User:Cheri Brown/Draft of Kent Tate, User:Cheri Brown/sandbox, User:LorriBrown/Draft page, and User:LorriBrown/sandbox/Kent Tate. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "far more" summary measured in edits does not match "spent time" in articles created about Canadian artists (incl. various WIR) and film festivals, triggered by a teahouse question on one of my bold days I submitted a Draft:Susan Hudson as "WP:NPROF" in spring 2019. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 23:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm afraid that the artist or those connected to them may have felt exasperation at the admittedly strict requirements for content inclusion I have effected in a few of my edit request reviews I have performed (shown on the talk page). It was not my intent to alienate them, and I apologize if I have — but the requests have been light on providing what I saw as reliable, independent, secondary sources for some of the claims they've wanted to include, which seem primarily to have been the listing of their artistic output referenced by museum catalog-type publications. Regards, Spintendo 17:37, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to a very helpful link posted at User talk:LorriBrown by Theroadislong, I have now seen two discussions where the reasosn for wanting deletion are given by Kent tate (who claims to really be Kent Tate, and I see no reason to doubt that) and LorriBrown (who has declared a conflict of interest as a relative of Kent Tate). The discussions are Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1039#How to request for an COI article to be deleted and Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1040#how do I request a deletion of a wikipedia page about me?. Obviously anyone is free to read those discussions for themselves, but it is clear that essentially the reason for requesting deletion is that the editors in question were not able to get the article they wanted. LorriBrown is perfectly clear about that: she is quite explicit about her frustration at not getting the edits she wants because of "resistance" (as she calls it) form other editors. Kent tate is bit more equivocal. He claims not to be notable, but he also says "its clear that that author is unable to do anything with the article which keeps getting re-edited (reduced) by third parties" and "Every edit or addition she has tried to make only results in the article being reduced to the point where it doesn't really say anything", making it clear that the same frustration at not getting the kind of article about himself he wants is a substantial reason for wanting deletion, perhaps in fact the reason. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. On the basis of what I have said in my message immediately above this one, I think we can reasonably take the deletion request as being for the two reasons mentioned there.

Notability. While there are many better-sourced articles, the citations in the article do include some which give sufficient coverage to satisfy the general notability guideline.
The subject of the articles and an associated COI editor don't like not being able to get the kind of article they think he deserves. We have probably thousands of articles about people which don't present those people in the way they would like. That is fundamental to the nature of Wikipedia as presenting an independent, third party, view. We don't delete for that reason, nor should we. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It is not a matter of liking or “not” liking the article its the matter of the COI and the lack of notability for a third party to add (or even allow) any additional information about the subject whether properly sourced or not. The “strict standards” applied to this article because of the COI are grounds for deletion and the subject should not have a wikipedia article until a third party without a COI creates an article on this subject. Kent tate (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually "The “strict standards” applied to this article because of the COI are grounds for deletion " is not a valid reason for deletion. Theroadislong (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kent tate, That doesn't make much sense at all. You say there shouldn't be an article "until a third party without a COI creates an article on this subject". However, you have elsewhere objected precisely to the fact that the current version of the article is the creation of editors without a COI, and expressed annoyance that the article "keeps getting re-edited (reduced) by third parties". You can't have it both ways. And what would you say if we delete the article because of the conflict of interest, and then a third party without a conflict of interest creates a new article which is substantially the same as the deleted one? If you are sincere in wanting the article deleted "until a third party without a COI creates an article on this subject" you should be perfectly happy with that, but in that case what on earth is your objection to keeping the current article? I could say more about the position you express on this matter, but really it is largely irrelevant, because, as "Theroadislong" has said above, conflict of interest is not a reason for deletion (though it is often a reason for third party editors to clean up an article). JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 21:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Okay, food for thought @JBW:Kent tate (talk) 23:22, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Passes WP:GNG. If the articles subject wants an article without a conflicted editor, then surely he can just tell her to stop editing and let all the neutral editors get on with improving it? We don't have to delete this one first. Theroadislong (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(changed !vote, see below) ~~Neutral~~, also known as "meh". For the Kent Tate article, he fails WP:ARTIST on all counts. Most coverage is of the calibre of this example coverage in Yorkton This Week. He's eligible for an article as there is a lot of this low-level coverage, and there are some articles in old Canadian art magazines like Parallelogramme and Vanguard. On the upside he was mentioned in Performance in Canada by Clive Robertson, although that is the only serious book mention I saw, and that book mentions practically every performance-type artist in Canada. However if this was to be deleted we would only be losing a very marginally notable artist. There are thousands of Canadian artists with similar profiles (showed at one or two decent galleries, had a half dozen published reviews) who do not have articles. The COI does not help either, in the sense that it shows a promotional intent for the article. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:20, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: @ThatMontrealIP:. Yes, I agree with you about this "marginally notable" article. It should be deleted because the subject "fails WP:ARTIST on all counts" as you mentioned with a COI that "does not help either".Kent tate (talk) 04:46, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but we are talking about the GNG guideline now. Might still be notable enough for an article. Also, the article subject's thoughts on their own notability are irrelevant here. We figure that out by independent means, so no need to comment on your own notability. ThanksThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I tried to help with putting together the edit requests in question although it was mostly on the technical side. I don't remember expressing any strong opinions about anything.
By my reading, what the COI editor wanted to include were a more complete timeline of the subject's career, some direct quotes from among the reviews and a table of filmography. Each of the requests was declined for supporting sources being not independent enough or not independent at all. The discussion about the suitability of non-independent sources is ongoing at the article's talk page. The second question would be, which of the sources in the article unequivocally qualify as independent sigcov to support keeping the article despite the subject's wishes, and which of them don't. The COI editor wants to expand the article. The declination of requests says that the supporting refs are not independent. If any of the refs are not good enough for expanding the article, it follows that these sources do not meet the requirements of GNG, as GNG is built on the assumption that a certain number of independent sigcov is usually required to build a decent article on the subject, irrespective of editor motivation. So, either we delete the article because the subject isn't clearly Wikipedia notable or we identify a few SIGCOVs that the COI editor can be told can be used for building a decent article on the subject. If we are evaulating the subject's notability on GNG basis only which it seems we are now, they should be sources that support expanding the article, at least to some extent, as currently the article is barely start class. Usedtobecool ☎️ 07:43, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to delete, after seeing the massive amount of editor time User: LorriBrown has wasted over at the talk page. This is such a marginal case of notability that the COI editing pushes it over the edge. Not the usual deletion rationale, just a fact. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:00, 15 January 2020 (UTC) Struck.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Yes to fact and time, but for comparison I spent 90% of my enwiki time since December 2018 on GA quests for two BLPs with two auxiliary AFCs. Pending reviews + GOCE + GA1 were also time consuming not only for me, that has nothing to do with the deletion policy. –84.46.53.255 (talk) 23:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC) (added for comparison after the following reply, sorry: 84.46.53.255 (talk) 04:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]

IP, I was going to leave a message on your talk page, but since your 84.46.*.* IP has changed five times on this page alone, I wasn't sure you would see it. The above comment was not about you. It was about how much editor time User LorriBrown wastes on the minutiae on Ken Tate.23:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm going to relist this as the actual !voters are relatively balanced and there is a huge amount of discussion, including recently. If it suddenly becomes clearly one-sided in the next couple of days, I'm happy to be contacted for an early close
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear (talk) 00:07, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I am sorry but I really don’t see a lot of policy discussion here other that you can’t delete the article just because you don’t like it. Isn’t that a policy of Wikipedia that an article and the editors should be neutral? How is it possible for an article to be represented neutral when so many of you have arrived at the consensus that this artist is marginally notable and that I have a COI and therefore not capable of being neutral. One person that initially voted neutral was anything but neutral and I perceived the comment as being intentionally disruptive for reason that I really can’t understand. This has not been a policy discussion it has been a defamation of the subject and I believe an unfair assessment of the subject out of hand. The subject of this article has 30 films distributed in three non-profit internationally recognized artist film centres in Canada which have also archived these films into their permanent collections. This artist has six DVD’s that he authored and are in library collections across Canada from St. Johns Newfoundland to Victoria, British Columbia. Over the last three years, his films have been officially selected and screened in over 50 juried international experimental film festivals around the world. These are just the facts; however, it has repeatedly been stated in this discussion that the subject is marginally notable, if notable at all. Based on what I ask. Based on this article? Exactly the reason why this article should be deleted! Which after reading this discussion I feel even more strongly that this article needs to be deleted. The article does not represent this artist and I feel I have been treated with bias from the beginning as a COI editor. The latest comment on the KT article talk page was humiliating and quite shocking to see. This process has just ramped up my anxiety and the anxiety of the subject and I am convinced that I will never be allowed to improve or to edit this article. I was also shocked to see the conversation about suspicions of me potentially having SPI and SPA. It just never ends in this platform. I am likely to never edit another article on any subject since it only appears that all of my good faith efforts have only amounted to giving me a reputation of wasting people’s time and if that is all I’ve achieved then my efforts here have been a waste of my time. LorriBrown (talk) 06:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

collapse discussion with COI !voters

@LorriBrown: From your talk page: "I am disclosing that I have a COI with the subject of the article Kent Tate, the Canadian Visual Artist/Filmmaker, as a family member." You should know that the presence of a family member trying to push a POV or position is not really helpful here. We strive for neutrality, and being a member of the article subject's family is not helpful to editing the article, or to the notability debate, because family members of the article subject are not neutral for obvious reasons. You also seem to be presenting arguments for keep, while voting delete because you do not like the state of the article and cannot get it to a version you like via request edit. Meanwhile, Kent Tate above is advocating for delete. We do not need either opinion really, because they are non-neural. There must be five million other articles here that you are not related to; editing those would cause no problems I imagine. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 02:02, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No you are incorrect. I support the subject's request to have this article deleted.LorriBrown (talk) 02:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion is not relevant in this AfD as you are a family member of the article subject, which is not a neutral party. That's the crux of things: it is always best to stay away from articles you have a COI with. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How have your comments here and elsewhere been neutral or helpful to this AfD discussion? In my opinion they have been nether neutral or helpful. Kent tate (talk) 03:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We really do not need the family of the article subject here. Other than the initial deletion request, your opinions will not be taken into account in deciding the AfD. Sorry you do not understand that.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:33, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the subject of that article I assumed I had rights, I'm sorry to hear that I don't Kent tate (talk) 03:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We are an independent thing. You have the right to request deletion and to request that things be changed in the article, but that's it. You can !vote here but it has little effect as you have a massive COI. Don't take it personally, as this is how we stay free of influence. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a human being, not a line of code, so I'm incapable of not taking this personally. The massive COI is one of the key reasons I requested the AFD in the first place. Thank youKent tate (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Back in March 2019, as a non-COI, I reduced length by half, cutting what in my opinion was not relevant or inappropriate. At that time, no concerted effort to add back the content or have the article deleted. Recently, length reduced by a third by other non-COI editors. In my opinion, once through AfC, an article is an article. It can be improved by subtraction and addition. The article that exists today is concise and descriptive. It includes an External link to the subject's website and his Vimeo channel, where he is free to create any content he so wishes. Wikipedia is consistent in that subjects and article creators (COI or not) do not "own" articles. David notMD (talk) 09:13, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: external links to the subject’s “non-neutral ” personal websites is not an argument to keep this article. Any cursory Google search of the subject’s name will will easily find those pages. The COI disclaimer and the huge numbers of deletions (with no additions) from the non-COI editors as well as the link to this AfD discussion will only serve to damage my reputation. If the purpose of a Wikipedia article is to provide information in a neutral way then this article fails on all counts. Kent tate (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2020 (UTC) Striking duplicate vote. ST47 (talk) 17:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets GNG. There are a number of offline-only sources, which perhaps is preventing others from fully evaluating the sourcing, however these two online sources clearly establish notability under GNG: we have Isolated Gestures Wins Award, while it is a short article, it does talk about the subject's life and work, it isn't just routine coverage. We also have Tate’s ‘Movies for a Pulsing Earth’ offer compelling introspection at Gallery, which is an in-depth article on the subject from a smaller community newspaper. That already passes GNG, and we still have another online article and several print-only newspaper references. ST47 (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Sorry, I meant to post this as a comment, my apologies: External links to the subject’s “non-neutral ” personal websites is not really an argument to keep this article. Any cursory Google search of the subject’s name will will easily find those pages. The COI disclaimer and the huge number of deletions with no additions from the non-COI editors as well as the link to this AfD discussion overshadows the article to the point where the reader will likely question the credibility of any content that has remained. I understand that this is not a policy argument but that is a serious concern of mine as the subject of this article. Kent tate (talk) 18:47, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I've voted neutral, delete and now keep. I was initially on the fence as available sourcing is poor. Then delete as I was fed up with the constant intervention of the article subject and his family, which has had the effect of muddying the neutrality of discussion. However I can now see, after hearing good clear arguments and looking a little more at the article and at the promise of sources, that the sourcing, and hints of sources on paper, is more than likely just enough to cover GNG. There are no collections but there were a bunch of articles in the 80s that I am pretty sure are in old copies of Paralleogramme and the like in various libraries. I will try and find more sources. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:51, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have added eight sources, several of which are primary fact checks but a couple of which are actual SIGCOV. "Exhibition features filmmaker’s view of the prairie’s beauty and contrast" was found in something called the Prairie Post, and a 1980s review was found in a clipping (thanks, LorriBrown!) from the Vancouver Province. All told, I see two reviews in Vanguard circa 1980s, the item in the Province from the same era, something in Parallelogramme from the 80s, the more recent item mentioned above, as well as the existing sources. I had to scrape very deep into various online databases to find some of these, but it seems to meet GNG.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks from the IPs, I learned new stuff about BROCHURE, REDACT, BITE, {{vimeo user}}, etc. on this BLP. –84.46.53.192 (talk) 07:55, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.