Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacob Elbaz

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 20:44, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jacob Elbaz[edit]

Jacob Elbaz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The article gives no indication of the person's notability, no notable achievements listed just a biography of their non-noteworthy career. -Lopifalko (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Photography-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question. The article says Meanwhile his own work, which focuses on tension between communities, has been featured in publications such as: Canadian Jewish News, ARTnews, The Jewish Press, San Diego Jewish Times, The Toronto Chronicle, and Time Magazine. Does this mean that individual photographs by him have appeared in these, or does it mean something more. If it means something more, then what does it mean? And where are the sources for these claims? Perhaps the creator, Dionysus the alcoholic (contributions) could explain. -- Hoary (talk) 07:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I thought that pressing 'edit' would take me to the 'Jacob Elbaz' page to edit that so I pressed 'Talk' instead. My comment went as follows:

It is your opinion that Elbaz's career is 'non-noteworthy', not mine. I feel that his work having been published, his biography having been published in various papers, his owning of several galleries, and his founding an artists' residency is noteworthy. I could list the papers individually and it would be just as valid a claim but you would not be able to see them and test the validity if I had not also linked to his website. The question is ' Does this mean that individual photographs by him have appeared in these, or does it mean something more'? It means both. Photographs which he has taken and articles about Elbaz and his work have been featured in several publications, I will gladly clarify this on the page if this is the problem. The sources for these claims are here: http://www.jacobelbaz.com/#!press/clud I would like to say that whilst, yes, this is Elbaz's own website that does not make the articles and photographs fake. I could have listed them individually with no link and this would still be valid according to wikipedia's guidelines, however, I felt it would be better to see the articles about Elbaz and the photographs he has had featured rather than list numerous names of papers without giving the opportunity to access them. Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 08:38, 23 March 2015 (UTC

Comment republished Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 09:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for responding. For me, one problem is the verb "feature", which can mean anything or almost nothing. I see that the man has a page of cuttings; unfortunately I can't read Hebrew, but I do see some promising material within what is in English. (Incidentally, it's fine to cite sources that are in Hebrew. The fact that I wouldn't be able to read them is by the way.) So for example Elbaz waded through the water, placed a chair in the flooded field and set a frightened, stray cat upon it. He took the picture and it was posted on the front page of "Yediot Aharonot", along with another two of his pictures: source, please. Or again, He sold his first print within an hour of opening his gallery in Soho which would eventually receive such visitors as Ariel Sharon: source, please. Meanwhile his own work, which focuses on tension between communities, has been featured in publications such as: Canadian Jewish News, ARTnews, The Jewish Press, San Diego Jewish Times, The Toronto Chronicle, and Time Magazine: decide whether "been featured" means more than "appeared", and, where it does, specify, with sources. Of course you have a lot of material that needs sourcing; one way to approach this would be to delete all but the most important 20% or so, add specific sources to this rump of an article, and readd the rest of it as you have the time to specify sources for it. -- Hoary (talk) 23:46, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi. Please understand that this is not about opinion, rather whether the article demonstrates notability as defined by Wikipedia policy. Aspects that warrant notability for a photographer would typically be awards received, books published by publishers, and exhibitions in galleries not owned by the photographer. I am afraid his biography published in newspapers is not noteworthy enough to be a major supporting aspect of an article. If his work has been published in newspapers then you either need to link to each of those newspaper articles (not just to the newspaper itself), or to an article in a reliable source that talks about his publishing in newspapers being noteworthy. It is not enough to use Elbaz's own claim that he has been published in newspapers. This article does not have any references. It does now demonstrate in what way setting up his own "print making and framing studio, an art gallery, and artists' studios" is notable in this instance - it does not appear on the face of it to be noteworthy. The same with "running an artists' placement to allow the youthful artists of the area a chance to showcase their work", if a reliable source were talking about it then that would demonstrate that this activity was in itself notable. -Lopifalko (talk)
  • Ok, First Hoary, thank you for getting back to me. So as I understand it, if I cut out the unnecessary details, such as the cat and wading through water, change my language a little, and add specific references to the articles instead of just posting Elbaz's website and asking people to go through it themselves this would be enough?

Secondly, Lopifalko, my apologies - I didn't mean to come off as passive aggressive, as I now realise I sounded, but I was also quoting wikipedia on Speedy deletion where it says, 'In particular, an article should not be tagged for speedy delete using A7 for not being notable (in your opinion): an article does not have to prove that its subject is notable, it only has to pass the much lower test of asserting importance or significance'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol#New_pages_that_may_require_deletion Everything I wrote is mentioned in the newspapers that I link to but they are external links and not references. If I make them specific references through footnotes does that change things? The studio, art gallery, and placement is significant and mentioned in one of the articles which is in Hebrew and the video by Hot which is a news channel owned by one of the two main telecommunications companies in Israel so should be considered a reliable source.

Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article wasn't tagged for speedy deletion. (That's something else.) This, I'm afraid, is horribly drawn out deletion -- or vindication. Yes, really: concentrate on what's most important, and link it to sources, whether in English, Hebrew, or some other language. Temporarily remove what's unsourced and less important: if the article is vindicated, you can later work on "sourcing" and readding this material. NB Wikipedia looks askance at claimed video when these are hosted by Youtube or similar: a video from a news channel should be hosted by that news channel, or by another one. -- Hoary (talk) 14:30, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually it originally was tagged for speedy deletion, then I contested it and the notice changed. As for the video, it is on the news channel's youtube page - does that not suffice? If someone claimed something about Ellen Degeneres and linked to her youtube channel I doubt that would be an issue or that I would need to refer to the exact programme, the only difference here is the scale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysus the alcoholic (talk • contribs) 09:03, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I haven't heard of Ellen Degeneres but a person isn't a reliable source for statements about themselves other than basic facts, so linking to their YouTube would likely not be a reliable source. Yes you definitely would need to link to the specific video, rather than the channel itself, because a reader needs to be able to refer to the exact place to see what was said so they can confirm the fact. -Lopifalko (talk)
      • I did link to a specific video though. Elbaz wasn't talking about himself on a blog or his own channel, he was being interviewed by a legitimate Israeli news channel about the artists' programme and gallery, and the news channel posted it to their own youtube page. Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 14:46, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • I was referring to what you said ("If someone claimed something about Ellen Degeneres and linked to her youtube channel I doubt that would be an issue or that I would need to refer to the exact programme,") that indicated using her as a source for info on herself, and linking to a channel and not a specific video. Anyway let us move on and not let this distract us as we are moving in a good direction with this. -Lopifalko (talk)
  • I have now done a pretty quick edit, If I source this correctly is that the end of the...horribly drawn out deletion/vindication?

Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 09:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • I've made a quick edit to demonstrate the level of detail that I believe is appropriate. Have a look and do with it as you will, this is just an example. Please use ref syntax to reference each claim with the sources you've indicated, thanks. -Lopifalko (talk)
  • Delete I can't find any sources. (willing to reconsider if persuasive sources are found.)E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I'll assume the author of the article isn't making things up and if not, then the subject is clearly notable. There may be sources in the Hebrew language. Lack of English-language sources does not warrant deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paperpencils (talk • contribs) 12:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I will assume that this new account is acting in good faith and explain: Dear User:Paperpencils, Wikipedia does not take anyone's "word" for anything. We assume that all editors are acting in good faith, but we only allow verifiable text, i.e., all text bust be sourced to a book, institution, newspaper or other source that other editors can locate and verify. Reliable sources can be in any language, in print or on the web. But you can't write anything, not even: The Empire State Building is very tall, unless you provide a verifiable source that says so.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then what about his time.com article? It's from an old archived paper and I can't see it. And what about everything on here? http://www.jacobelbaz.com/#!press/clud I think the person who creators/contributors of the page should be faulted for failing to list the sources of these photos properly or to do the research in Hebrew. But in no way does it warrant deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paperpencils (talk • contribs) 14:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This [1] is persuasive. It is a photo from El Baz's website, showing newspaper pages that in iclude several profiles of about him and his work, and at least one news report of a gallery show. I say "at least" because there are numerous article,you have to click on eash to expand an make them legible, and even then not all of the photos reveal the name or date of the newspapers. I am puzzled that they did not come up in quick searches, since they are only a decade or 3 old. (His gallery ownership did show up) The lack of ghits is not solved by using El Baz instead of Elbaz. And certainly the article needs to be re-written WP:NPOV and needs in-line sourcing. Nevertheless, the page [2] User:Paperpencils directs us to is persuasive evidence that El Baz is notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Advice to User:Dionysus the alcoholic and User:Paperpencils If you are the same person, just admit it, apologize, beg forgiveness, and sin mo more. Whether you are separate people or the same person, you would be better advised to spend just a little time adding proper citations to newspapers to the page. It's easy to do.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Edited. I'm not the same person as Paperpencils (not that I don't appreciate the assistance) and I'll thank you not to make that assumption - I have no need to admit/apologise/beg forgiveness for anything when you are the one who has clearly already formed an opinion on my character. I'm quite sure that I was already heading in the right direction as to this article before all this came up, so what would be the use in creating an alternative account? I will certainly admit to not taking the time to reference/source correctly, mostly due to laziness, but I will now add the references correctly and learn how to footnote on wikipedia but it will take a little bit of time which I can't easily spare this weekend. It may be easy for you to do however I'm a little new at this and thus, clearly, not as competent as you are at inserting citations. Am I operating on a timeline? Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 18:20, 27 March 2015 (UTC) Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For a start, I can see now why you spoke about citing Elbaz's website, rather than to a copy of each of the articles at the website of the particular newspapers. These are pre-web. -Lopifalko (talk)
  • I've now begun adding footnotes, can anyone tell me if I'm doing this correctly or if not what else is needed? Please note that I have not finished with the citations.Thank you Dionysus the alcoholic (talk) 15:53, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 03:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mr. Guye (talk) 22:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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